Thank you both, that clears it up! I was hooked on thinking what you actually pay will be the spell's converted mana cost (which to me sounds more logical). So I can recur creatures/cards with alternative costs higher than 2, so long as their original casting cost was 2 or less (with X cost spells at 2 or less in total), allowing me to cast the Leosaur for 3cc with Lurrus...
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Aug 11, 2020Still slightly confused about Lurrus... too much conflicting info online. I understand that as a companion he puts a limit of 2cc on your deck construction, easy peasy. But (as a non-companion) his recur ability still has me confused, since it only cares about the converted mana cost of the spell, so does that mean I can or can't cast Parcelbeast from my grave with Lurrus for 2cc...? Similarly, can Lurrus let me cast Regal Leosaur from my grave for 3cc...? It seems like I should be able to cast Parcelbeast and not Leosaur, but if not, I'm still unclear on why I can't...Posted in: Magic Rulings
Jul 24, 2020I've been doing lots of card research to write this up, and hopefully I cover the best ways to break Lurrus of the Dream-Den, but ultimately I'm expecting you all to break him with your own awesome decklists...Posted in: Multiplayer
So, upon release it was quickly obvious how powerful Lurrus is, but as a non-companion in a control/toolbox theme, I think this can be exploited even further in modern, and there are already some pretty powerful Lurrus decks out there. It really opens the door for various themes to thrive, and even allows for some downright absurd combo value to exist (hint: Enigmatic Incarnation and Hatching Plans).
Lurrus opens an interesting door for self-sacrificing counterspell creatures like Voidmage Prodigy, Siren Stormtamer, Cursecatcher, Mausoleum Wanderer, Spiketail Hatchling, and Judge's Familiar, which all benefit from being effects, versus spells that can be countered easier. Voidmage is an awesome engine for turning wizards into hard counters (then Lurrus completes the cycle of replenishment), making S.Stormtamer and Cursecatcher top considerations as small wizard-counterspells that can help control and/or slow the early game before Voidmage gets out. M.Wanderer, S.Hatchling and J.Familiar are non-wizard alternatives worth consideration, pending your desired theme. If you stick with wizards a little for Voidmage you can find viability in 1cc wizards like Grim Lavamancer, Viscera Seer, Sage of Epityr, Overwhelmed Apprentice, Soul-Scar Mage, God-Pharaoh's Faithful, Benthic Biomancer, Cosi's Trickster, (etc,) and for 2cc there's Dark Confidant, Augur of Skulls, Qasali Pridemage, Baral, Chief of Compliance, Dreadhorde Arcanist, Senate Guildmage/Dismissive Pyromancer, Asylum Visitor/Blood Scrivener, Drannith Magistrate, Azorious Guildmage, Meddling Mage, and many others, but these seem to be worth the most consideration with Lurrus. Additionally, Guile becomes a very intriguing option under Voidmage's umbrella, since you're not likely to win early, and getting it on the BF changes the impact of your counters dramatically. So the simple goal will be to have enough cheap and usable control spells and sac-creatures in your opening hand to stall your opponent's efforts until you can get four or five lands that tap for blue, Voidmage, a cheap wizard (or two, but Voidmage can sac itself), and Lurrus... then you should be pretty well in control of the game. Remember, your counterspells from Voidmage can't easily be countered, so their impact with each recurred use is quite game changing, and basically requires Stifle to battle it. So sideboard Stifle against other Voidmage/Lurrus decks...
For extra "redundancy" in your Lurrus engine for creatures, throw in Athreos, God of Passage too... once both are out, every creature you sacrifice comes right back to your hand, unless your opponent takes 3 damage and lets you recur it with Lurrus. That means if you continuously sac and re-cast something, they need to take 6 damage to force it into your grave... so that Lurrus can get it back on your next turn. Ouch.
Before we go further I'd like to run through my favorite cards that have good synergy with Lurrus (in no particular order, or care about color):
Underworld Breach gives access to everything (nonland) that Lurrus doesn't...
Return to the Ranks in a sac-heavy creature deck this is ideally cast soon after Lurrus ETB, to restock/reset your army/toolbox
Unearth insurance for Lurrus or any of your crucial small creatures
Call of the Death-Dweller tough competition with Unearth... both are good
Spellskite adds a nice layer of protection for Lurrus, which he can bring back with ease
Kaya's Ghostform same benefit as Spellskite, but likely only for Lurrus, but awesome protection! When K.Ghostform brings Lurrus back you immediately bring back K.Ghostform
Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner crazy good draw ability with a fleet of small creatures, plus all the unblockable damage
Tarmogoyf (of course...)
Speaker of the Heavens on T1, Heroes' Reunion T2, then tap to make a 4/4 angel...
Serra Ascendant keeping with the life-gain theme
Avatar of the Resolute if you run enough +1/+1 counter synergy
Cindervines alternate to Qasali for artifact/enchantment removal, plus damage, but can serve a third purpose as fuel for Enigmatic Incarnation
Engineered Explosives (or Ratchet Bomb?) EE is better, especially on the first use, but Ratchet fits the Lurrus "multiple use" concept better
Baleful Strix EDH option... would be nice in modern too...
Gifted Aetherborn/Vampire of the Dire Moon
Sakura-Tribe Elder/Wayfarer's Bauble
Implement of Malice and the other Implements (most are worthy, pending theme)
Pilfering Imp/Thrull Surgeon/Liliana's Steward if you don't like Augur of Skulls...?
Children of Korlis
Dragonmaster Outcast requires exiling with Lurrus on the BF
Kami of False Hope/Spore Frog
Mentor of the Meek
Hanweir Militia Captain this is value... assuming you are running a heavy enough creature theme
Rix Maadi Reveler once in the grave, Lurrus gives much better control over the timing of using Rix
Edge of the Divinity makes Lurrus into a 6/5 lifelinker for 1cc, etc
Dead Weight/Mire's Grasp/Sangrite Backlash/Death's Approach
Executioner's Capsule/Sinister Concoction/Underhanded Designs
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Bogbrew Witch/Bubbling Cauldron/Festering Newt makes much more sense with Lurrus...
Weight of Conscience is viable creature removal if you run a tribal theme (like wizards...), and lets you get to their indestructible creatures
Skirsdag High Priest great way to use sac-creatures before you sac them, etc
Wreath of Geists (opposite of Death's Approach) sac a creature, this pumps... your sacced creatures now matter more...
Wildborn Preserver becomes a solid mid/late-game mana outlet when you are casting creatures every turn and possibly dropping land every turn
Saving Grace use first on defense with flash, then later on offense before an all-out attack
Seal Away and other similar cards...
Mishra's Bauble is free, so it's good early, but in mid/late game Lurrus will have better/bigger options to bring back, so...
Evolutionary Leap have enough redundancy in wizards on the board? Trade them for other creatures into your hand... fast...
Mogg War Marshal not crazy powerful, but it's still two 1/1's every turn for 2cc...
Vampire Hexmage sideboard for PW heavy decks, etc
Bounty Agent (for their creature commander)
Soul Tithe repetitively tie up mana or force sacrifices
Charming Prince is a decent option to be sacrificed by something else
Prized Amalgam it's faster to action in dredge, but it'd be a crime not to mention it
Niambi, Esteemed Speaker prevent a Path/Push from removing a creature, then trade extra legendaries for a couple cards, in between attacks under Subira?
Grafted Wargear is great if you're running a creature sacrifice engine, and especially benefits Mausoleum Wanderer
Thieves' Guild Enforcer/Jace's Phantasm/Vantress Gargoyle for mill decks...?
Throne of Geth sac to itself
No Rest for the Wicked use every turn you sac/lose more than one creature, return with Lurrus; redundancy for Athreos; allows creature wipes to affect you less
Keldon Marauders a weak card (unless you can pump the damage), but has synergy... so, go wild
Grumgully, the Generous/Good-Fortune Unicorn low synergy with Subira's draw effect; helps Maus.Wanderer and Bitterblossom (etc); the more creatures ETB, the more this helps
*Hatching Plans with Enigmatic Incarnation (then Blood Aspirant, Slaughter-Priest of Mogis, or Auratog as "redundancy" options to sac enchantments)
The trio of Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Enigmatic Incarnation, and Hatching Plans, all under a "sacrificing" toolbox/control theme seems too good to pass up. Once running, every turn you essentially pay 2cc to draw three extra cards and search for a 3cc-or-less creature (Lurrus, then Uro...?) to put on the battlefield. Add in a range of sacrifice/recur/security pieces to protect the engine and you might be able to build an impenetrable force that resupplies itself with ease, once enough pieces are in play. Just get Lurrus and/or Athreos onto the BF and decently protected, and the game should be over pretty soon. For a little redundancy, you can use Ordeal of Thassa as a backup option to Hatching Plans, netting two cards instead of three.
Using the Enigmatic Incarnation/Lurrus engine opens the door for some other enchantments to consider sacrificing instead of Hatching Plans, like Ordeal of Heliod (sac with E.Incarnations to grab Voracious Wurm, and boom you gain 10 life and get a 12/12), Ordeal of Nylea, Oath of Ajani, Fists of Ironwood, Strength from the Fallen, or Rise of the Hobgoblins, to get Lurrus or other needed creatures onto the BF. But you can also use Cindervines for its obvious purposes, then double it as a sac option for E.Incarnation to search for a creature. Cindervines gives you the enchantment-sac flexibility for E.Incarnation, where Qasali gives you another wizard for Voidmage... your choice.
If you get to the point that you have Lurrus and Enigmatic Incarnation on the board with an appropriate enchantment to sac (and if the game isn't already over), you can search for a new creature each turn, and this makes a range of 2cc creatures viable in a deck as singletons that can be grabbed if needed (and reused with Lurrus if needed), like Grand Abolisher, Spellskite (although decking more than one also makes sense), Selfless Spirit, Timestream Navigator, Scavenging Ooze, Budoka Gardener, Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger (maybe x2 or x3?), etc. Since you are likely saccing a 2cc enchantment, other 3cc creatures fit this singleton niche for E.Incarnation to grab (they just aren't recursion targets for Lurrus), which likewise gives your sideboard lots of flexibility (and with Eladamri's Call, grabbing creatures from your deck should be relatively easy) and requires less 2x/3x/4x of a sideboard creature card.
While you can go various directions with a Lurrus based deck in modern, I keep coming back to the necessity of Voidmage and other wizards to establish initial control of the board. With three lands, Lurrus, Voidmage, and a 1cc wizard, you can hard counter a spell each turn and return your wizard to the BF with Lurrus, which all in itself becomes really hard for your opponent to handle since you're drawing cards and getting card advantage on top of it. Add a fourth land and another 1cc wizard, and it should be game over, assuming you can tap each land for blue (Realmwright?). (This hints at the desirability for land that can tap for any color mana, which really isn't hard to swing these days... Mana Confluence, City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Forbidden Orchard, and Reflecting Pool can populate 20 lands in your deck, so it's pretty easy to swing five colors in modern.) Eladamri's Call can help to get what you need quicker, and being an instant, you can cast it at the end of your opponent's turn, which helps a lot with Voidmage in action. Then it's time for Enigmatic Incarnation to go to work, hopefully with Hatching Plans, at which point you can flood your board really fast and effectively. BUT, using Enigmatic Incarnation is also kinda more "fun" than necessary, as the game should be in control and effectively almost over before E.Incarnation gets going, so is it worth putting in the deck, or using other cards for the kill...? Debatable. But it could be worse than having E.Incarnation on the board T4 with a 2cc enchantment to sac (and no Lurrus in hand or on the board), allowing you to grab Voidmage, Lurrus or Athreos. And for this reason I think we kind of have two decks going... one that is heavy on wizards for Voidmage and counter control, but no E.Incarnation, then a second deck for E.Incarnation and less focus on control through wizards (but still using some), and more use of enchantments. If there was an 80 card format for modern, then this would be great to combine into one massive assortment of recursion engines. Alas.
Now Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner is hard to leave out in general, but in a RWB scheme, she becomes super valuable and might be a solid alternative plan to using Enigmatic Incarnation. She gives you big-time draw ability, for relatively cheap, and allows for unblocked damage every turn, which is awesome with a fleet of small wizards or creatures otherwise waiting to be sacced. (Honestly, Subira makes for an intriguing commander option.) This in itself opens the door to other 2-power and under creatures that wreak havoc with combat damage-triggered effects or untapping effects, like for 1cc/2cc there's Hope of Ghirapur, Copperhorn Scout, Honored Hierarch, Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, Emmara, Soul of the Accord, Robber of the Rich, Grim Flayer, Skyknight Vanguard, Precinct Captain, Riptide Pilferer, Grateful Apparition, Tithe Drinker, Disciple of Deceit, Pain Seer, Wharf Infiltrator, or for 3cc there's Spawnwrithe, Dimir Cutpurse, Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Daring Thief, Thief of Sanity, Surrakar Spellblade, Augury Adept, Siren of the Silent Song, Cephalid Constable, Cold-Eyed Selkie, Daxos of Meletis, Graveblade Marauder, Ohran Viper, Prophetic Flamespeaker, Tandem Lookout, Sea-Dasher Octopus, Nightveil Specter, or Tomebound Lich, and Trygon Predator or Feline Sovereign for support. Above 3cc there are options like Akki Underminer, Glint-Eye Nephilim, Guul Draz Specter, King Macar, the Gold-Cursed, Seafloor Oracle, or Throat Slitter. There are also tons of good infect creature that can slide in under Subira's protection, potentially ending the game that much quicker.
Keeping with Subira, if you plan to use enough planeswalkers or counters on permanents, then the proliferating creatures of Thrummingbird, Grateful Apparition, or Guildpact Informant are worth noting, as well as Throne of Geth. And while your choice of planeswalker(s) is dependant on your chosen theme, it's worth mentioning Vraska, Golgari Queen because of how well she fits the overall sac theme, and securing attack damage with Subira for the ultimate (the -3 speaks for itself)
Another obvious direction is utilizing other/more sac-engine cards. It's hard to find a two-card sac engine that is more effective than Enigmatic Incarnation and Hatching Plans (in concert with Lurrus, of course). That's not to say you can't find something just as effective, but... good luck? That being said, it's hard to argue against self-sacrificing cards that require no other cards to be effective and can be used ASAP, but you can get more out of a good sac engine, hopefully getting two effects for one sacrifice (or one really good effect, like with Voidmage).
Jul 20, 2020Wandering Taoist posted a message on [JMP] Well-read theme - Ormos, Archive keeper and... RHYSTIC STUDY REPRINT!Posted in: The Rumor MillQuote from Tormented »Or for the simple fact that you then have a 4th level of redundancy - that exists in your command zone for a win condition. You can now self mill without being afraid of hitting all your wincons
Half the arguments against this card are almost under the assumption it's being played in standard or modern. In EDH Ormos has palpable value on both the labman scene as your commander or simply as a power-draw option. Spending 3cc to draw cards, without having to tap the creature/permanent, is pretty nice all in itself. At 6cc to cast, you can go +4 cards the next turn, and see 10 cards from your deck in the process... if you have three cards in hand, 6cc later you have seven cards in hand. Granted this guy has legit limitations regarding drawing, by requiring three cards to discard, since he's going to be dropped mid/late game when you're only likely to be holding counterspells or other good stuff you don't want to discard. But he will allow you to see five and go +2 overall for 3cc, repeatably, which is hard to beat. Talk about finding the other half of your combo faster, or making sure you have a counterspell ready to go, etc. While the labman value is cool and obvious, I think this guy's draw ability is worth appreciating all on it's own too, especially in the long-game singleton scope of EDH. That being said, I also think the draw ability plays well into the labman theme as well, giving you a highly accessible means to get through your deck faster, and reap, keep and cast the best cards in the process.
Jul 19, 2020Some of us build decks that try to rely solely on 1cc counter spells. As such, Miscast isn't a bad option as a sideboard card. Hard to justify using it over Spell Pierce in your mainboard, but I can at least understand arguments between it and Flusterstorm going either way... especially as a budget option for beginners, or another solid budget option in EDH.Posted in: The Rumor Mill
Apr 14, 2020Pretty simple questions... with Feldon of the Third Path creating creature tokens until the end of the turn, what happens if/when they are mutated into another creature? To not lose the creature token, does it matter if it gets mutated on top or bottom? Say I'm casting Porcuparrot for it's mutate cost, with a Feldon-copy of Utvara Hellkite on the BF as it's target, can I have the Hellkite on top and still keep it? What if it's on the bottom (where I'm assuming I can keep it for sure), and the next turn I make a new copy of the Hellkite... can I pay to mutate it into the Porcuparrot again, and have two instances of the Hellkite in the mutated creature, triggering twice when a dragon attacks, or is this strictly an alternate casting cost? Like, can you add non-mutate creatures into the mutation after the creature with mutate has already been cast? Or can you only add creatures with mutate to the mutation stack by casting them from your hand? What if I'm using Feldon to copy a creature with mutate... can I pay to have it mutate with another creature...?Posted in: Rumored Card Rulings
Feb 24, 2020I'm delving this up from the grave, but I thought I would add some spice to the old convo. First, it seems fun and logical to run a land destruction theme with Feldon, but its really hard to use successfully in multiplayer. So maybe that's a 1v1-only deck... and as a second deck for multiplayer you run Slivers (or 1v1), which have plenty of 2-4 drops that all work well together. Slivers give you Sliversmith, as stated above, as well as Hivestone to get Feldon and his copies under the Sliver umbrella, then there's Hollowhead Sliver for more discard/draw, as well as a bunch of other worthy Sliver deck inclusions. Which brings me to a question... in a 100 card deck, how many would be the fewest Slivers you would run to justify using them as a secondary theme at all? 8? 10? 12...?Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
And while the ideal would be a deck that plays great in multiplayer and/or 1v1, you can feasibly build two versions of this deck for pretty cheap (just proxy and double-use the few expensive cards). Anyway...
These days there are lots of good options for discard/draw spells/creatures, and this deck can use a lot of them. But the big monsters are the bread and butter of Feldon's abilities, and the best options are those that have ETB/attack/death triggers. The ones I would add to the list that haven't been mentioned yet (and more or less updating to Theros Beyond Death): Bane of Bala Ged, Drakuseth, Maw of Flames, Ancient Stone Idol, Meteor Golem, Artisan of Kozilek, Combustible Gearhulk, Balefire Dragon, Etali, Primal Storm, and Spawnsire of Ulamog. Other cards with good synergy are Ilharg, the Raze-Boar, Goblin Engineer, Seismic Mage, Trading Post, Thud and Fling, Crack the Earth, Altar of Dementia to get better monsters into your grave, Dreamshaper Shaman, Bloodrage Brawler, Flamerush Rider, Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded, Panharmonicon, Grimoire of the Dead, Millikin, and Grafted Wargear... I could keep going...
Jan 29, 2020Digging this convo up from the grave since Thassa's Oracle changes the possibilities slightly, giving twice the zero-library win-con possibility and making a self-mill concept worth rehashing, five years since LabMan. Are there enough mill/self-mill cards out there to make this a fast enough concept in modern...? It's a hard concept for your opponent to plan a deck against, except for using counterspells or just getting you to zero first. Might be one of those not-very-competitive decks that's a lot of fun to play with anyway...Posted in: Modern
Jan 16, 2020Wandering Taoist posted a message on Cards of equal mana cost but unequal power/toughnessSince you say you're somewhat new, something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that rarity also plays into the cost/benefit of similar cards. You can find various instances where two cards do the same thing, but the casting cost is different and reflected in the rarity (how often you pull the card in a pack/box). While the cards so far discussed above have all been commons, more variation in similar concepts comes through with cards of other rarity, such as say the Gigantosausur, still being "vanilla" but cheaper and much bigger, and also rare. But note that as TheOnlyOne652089 mentioned, it's color cost is also harder to reach with five green.Posted in: Magic General
Jan 15, 2020Posted in: Opinions & PollsQuote from SavannahLion »I'm of the same mindset now. I was going to buy myself a m/nm favourite card of mine for my 40th birthday recently. Saw the price, and laughed. That's half a new top of the line gaming pc.
I think one of the above posts were right. Just nostalgia.
I'm in somewhat of the same boat, minus the kids/family expenses, but took 18 years off, and came back about two years ago. A lot changed!! Damn near EVERYTHING changed! I left when it was only 60 card decks, four of each, etc... no standard/modern/legacy/commander/pauper options. With all the new rules, changes to rules, new mechanics and their rules... I pretty much had to learn the game all over again, and learn all the new cards from 18 years of new sets, and I still feel like I'm behind anyone who plays regularly.
That being said, what I have learned is that you can do commander on the cheap and stay competitive. Back in my old playing days I rarely played red. Now I'm building/built two red commander decks, and each is very competitive and under $100 (or around there), with no cards over $15 (I think Strip Mine is my most expensive card in either deck). Try building one around Torbran, Thane of Red Fell... mono-red burn, fast, and the appropriate spells to build a good deck are quite cheap. Second option I'm digging is using Feldon of the Third Path, who only gets better and better in EDH as more cards come out that fit his theme (I use a secondary theme of land destruction with Feldon). Both decks are fun, competitive, and cheap.
The trick is finding people to play with that don't suck at life. I find draft tournaments at the LGS can be a good way to meet new people, since no one is going in there with a constructed deck, therefore the general cockiness/elitism is held in check a little more. But doing that I've met few good guys who are in the same boat as me, similar age, took 15-20 years off, came back, etc, who just want to play and have fun.
Quote from Incanur »Have you considering trying to find some folks who play with proxies? Many of the people I've played EDH with over the years are 100% okay with proxies.
You can also have a blast playing EDH with a $50 deck. TappedOut values one of my favorite lists, cycling tribal, at $70-80. Most of my more casual decks come in at $125-300.
As a piggyback to this, while proxies might be acceptable with some playgroups, I think it's worth stepping back to ask yourself if you are hooked into the concept that you have to have a M/NM foil of everything. If money is a limiting factor, only buy damaged/moderately played copies (from cheaper sets) of the more expensive cards, assuming cheap enough ones are available. Depending on how expensive the card normally goes for, you can save $5-20 each on all the cards that are really spendy. If you flat out go as cheap as possible on each card, you can probably save 30-50%. Also, if you're ready to buy cards for a deck, plan on buying from each of TCG, Card Kingdom, and TCGGoldfish, and cross-reference to get the cheapest prices.
Quote from Simto »I agree with most of your sentiments OP. I'm pretty tired of all the "alpha nerds" in Magic.
So true! Alpha/elitist MTG nerds! In the Seattle area you find a decent amount of pros, and not one I've met yet have I actually wanted to be friends with... so far, the more pro the player, the less I would enjoy being in their playgroup, even if I could afford it.
Quote from Kman »Well for me, its a personal group of friends that have know eachother for many many years. We get together usually once a week (2-5 of us) and play.
We play open form 60 card multiplayer games. We yell at eachother, mess up turn orders, misplay things all the time. We build decks that range from $10 - $1000. We all win, lose and scoop multiple times a night. THIS IS Magic to me. I have never really went to LGS because none were around. We have all been playing this way for 20 years + (taking multiple hiatuses for months or years at a time.
Its super awesome and we love it when one of our high dollar decks cant get past a frickin Whip Vine from homelands sometimes. We love to rag on eachother for the casualness of our decks or the uber competitiveness sometimes.
Absolutely enjoyable. Dont care about Tier 1, turn 3 wins, making money. Just want to crack some packs and play some Magic.
I dig it! I wish I had that where I just moved... from Seattle to the boonies across the water. Hopefully in due time...
Jan 13, 2020Assuming NMP is out, it's hard to imagine this ever being a bad thing to have in your hand. Draw it early and at worst you can "cycle" it for a R, plus give your creatures trample, or draw it T12 with NMP out and you get two more cards, deal two damage to up to two targets, and your creatures get trample. No matter when you draw it it can have value.Posted in: Opinions & Polls
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