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Magic Market Index for June 8th, 2018
 
Ravnica: The Living Guildpact
 
Magic Market Index for June 1st, 2018
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    If they summarily dismiss a card without testing or acknowledging results, yes. My issue was that there is a continuous use of "This will not work." "This is a bad card." "This is ..." Without rationale for it, primarily play testing.

    If you watch Shock or, especially, Pie, something you note in your own post, they may indicate a card is something they wouldn't try or don't think will be good and provide their experience in trying it or analysis of the card based on their experience/playstyle as to why they aren't going to include it, rather than just saying "No, this will not work./end" (I don't know that I've seen an instance of them not doing this, but I haven't watched every second of footage).


    I wrote it not just one, but twice. It’s fine if you missed it, you don’t have to read my words all the time, but I provided enough reasons why I think the card is no good.

    @I don’t play (nor I intend to play) Talismans in the deck - we already discussed a lot about this - and Karn without Talismans isn’t that appealing for obvious reasons.
    @I’m already low on artifacts (the main reason to play 3 a Thirst instead of the full set) and if we consider Karn as a CA Spell, then, I do think it’s the worse of all them, because of him being a 4cc sorcery that dies to everything.
    @I jam more O-Stone effects than most of you guys, so running several planeswalkers sometimes is a nuisance.
    @It improves very few matchups.

    I definitely provided enough rationale, given that I always referred to my list and not to the one of someone else.


    Problem is, I did read your words. As you note, your rationale was specific to the decklist you run, yet the opinion of whether to run the card in the deck was given as a universal negative for all UTron decklists. So, you need to expand your rationale for all decklists then or confine your negative response to the card to your specific decklist.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from topkyle »
    Man you guys just love jumping on Bloody. Weird I am and probably always will be a "Shok-type" player for most events, but if you've ever tried their list it really is more consistent at pooping on aggro and their card evaluation seems well thought out. Pie is probably my favorite card evaluator in U Tron and he wasn't high on Karn either, you gonna go after him too?


    If they summarily dismiss a card without testing or acknowledging results, yes. My issue was that there is a continuous use of "This will not work." "This is a bad card." "This is ..." Without rationale for it, primarily play testing.

    If you watch Shock or, especially, Pie, something you note in your own post, they may indicate a card is something they wouldn't try or don't think will be good and provide their experience in trying it or analysis of the card based on their experience/playstyle as to why they aren't going to include it, rather than just saying "No, this will not work./end" (I don't know that I've seen an instance of them not doing this, but I haven't watched every second of footage).

    Over and over, I see people provide suggestions to improve the deck, with a very vocal minority consistently shooting nearly every idea down without explanation of why or proof that it doesn't work through play testing. Then, as we have here, 2 people post 5-0 results with a new card or cards included in the deck and we still get "Nope, doesn't work. It's a bad addition"

    That may be correct. It may be something that doesn't add value to the deck. As you point out, Karn, specifically for this conversation, is a one of in the decklist.

    However, UTron runs a lot of 1 ofs in the main board for game 1, especially, and has a lot of 1 ofs in general:
    1. Platinum Angel
    2. Snapcaster Mage
    3. Sundering Titan
    4. Solemn Simulacrum
    5. Trinket Mage
    6. Treasure Mage
    7. Walking Ballista
    8. Tolaria
    9. Chalice
    10. River of Tears
    11. Oboro
    12, Oblivion Stone
    13. Engineered Explosives
    14. Mindslaver (usually a 1 of in the MB)
    15. Wurmcoil (a 1 of in the "traditional" MB)
    16. Academy Ruins
    17. Ugin
    18. Crucible
    19. Cyclonic Rift
    20. Gifts Ungiven

    Depending on decklist, there are more or less, but those are the main ones that we most frequently see. The point being, to say it's a one of and therefore doesn't contribute anything to the deck is ridiculous. For the larger point, if you're going to dismiss new ideas / new cards, at least provide some rationale and playtesting results before making an absolute statement that the card is not worth consideration or inclusion. (The obvious carve out exception are the ridiculous suggestions, like: "Derp, play blood moon in teh side, har har har")
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    1. I see further back a lot of people are beating ponza 2-0 multiple times. What is the secret or what cards should I be focusing on having in my opener?
    2. How do you all feel about Karn, Scion of Urza? He definitly felt okay but i think it might be better to just have another piece of interation or something more proactive.


    1) Having more counterspells and keeping lands with lot of lands OR early interaction (Dismember for Elf, to make an example). Ballista is good on the play for the same reason. Oblivion Stone is very good at dealing with a Moon. DON’T counter Blood Moon, focus on threats and land destruction. Wurmcoil Engine is how we win. It’s a tough mu anyway, because they will focus on our blue sources (if they are good players).

    2) Extremely bad card in our archetype, I already talked about him some pages ago.


    Yet a 5-0 x2 has been posted running Karn SOU in the list... so, you sure about that summary dismissal of the card?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    So, it’s not just me who is putting up results at fnm and such. The deck really rocks, except when we’re paired against very difficult archetypes to face. Ballista is being an all star since its introduction.


    Went 3-1 the week before as well with the same list, so, no, the deck definitely can put up good results, but it has a huge learning curve, imo.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    LGS Report - (3-0-1) with the following list:



    1. Naya Nahiri - (2-0)
    Game 1 - Lots of early counter and kill interaction, keeping the board cleanish. He eventually resolves some stuff, but I have Tron and get my threats online and overwhelm him eventually.
    Game 2 - He mulls to 5, gets land screwed, GG.
    For fun Game 3 - He gets me down into single digits, but can't close it out, as I get Tron online, draw into my removal, then land threats.

    2. Affinity - (2-1)
    Game 1 - He did Affinity things.
    Game 2 - On the play, Chalice on 0. T2, Chalice on 1. Find a threat, find another Chalice, play it on 2, play a Wurmcoil, GG.
    Game 3 - I bounce and kill things into T4, when I get Tron, with Wurmcoil and Chalice in hand. Chalice on 1, then Wurmcoil. I learned after the game that the Chalice locked out his entire hand and everything he drew from that point onward. Yay luck.

    3. BW Tokens - (2-1)
    Game 1 - Lots of counters and bounce, until I ran into an EE, while in single digit life. Wipe the board, into a Tolaria Transmute for an Academy Ruins, then Slaver lock.
    Game 2 - Kept recurring EE with Academy, until he resolved a Stony Silence, followed by a RIP
    Game 3 - Natural Tron with Treasure Mage and a Wurmcoil in hand. GG

    4. Mono W Taxes - (Split for prizes - play for kicks 1-1)
    Game 1 - We both draw the game out a while, but he gets the threats down and takes it.
    Game 2 - I get early Tron and Wurmcoils. He resolves a lot of bounce creatures, but I eventually eek out the win.
    Game 3 - TBD - We were both tired and had enough for the night, having already split prizes.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I'd be curious to see what your experience without Chalice is. I've played with 4x MB, 2/2 Split, and 1/1 Split. Personally, I think the 2/2 split is the way to go.

    In matches where it's dead, you pitch it to TFK. In matches it's not dead, it's a game changer.

    Even in matchups where opp isn't running umpteen 1 or 2 drops, it can still play a huge role in shutting down key components of their win strategy or defense strategy.

    For example, dropping a chalice on 1 v a white deck running Path often shuts down their primary and/or only means for removing Wurmcoil. If they do happen to have additional creature/artifact removal, it's coming at a higher cost and easier to counter with Condescend or Remand without fear of having it recast the same turn.

    Chalice represents a highly efficient means for continually shutting down a specified CMC. Something we need, given our smaller set of slots available for counters, even if you remove all Chalices.

    Would also note that I went 3-1 at the LGS last night playing a list similar to Shok's. The Matchups:

    1) Temur Good Stuff - (1-2) - Very bad draws
    2) BW Tokens - (2-0) - EE for days
    3) Soul Sisters - (2-1) - EE and Chalice + Wurmcoil; slow games with a Chalice on 1, 2, and 3 for a hard lock on his deck
    4) UG Merfolk - (2-0) - Ugin
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on 8Rack
    Humans - Bontu's or other sweeper, all the targeted removal, maybe ratchet bomb
    Hollow One - Bontu's or other sweepers, all the targeted removal, Nihil's Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction
    Eldrazi - Bontus' or other sweepers, all the targeted removal

    Then, lots of prayers
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Because those are the decks that we most need land destruction against early, the cavern and tron decks. GQ has no requirements on our side to eliminate one of their lands, whereas ruin is t3, earliest. A mix of them seems to work well.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    @uenot47

    My buddy plays RG Eldrazi and, much like humans, there's isn't much you can do to keep up when there's a Cavern of Souls in play. It's either race, via assembling Tron quickly and hitting your card advantage draws and/or land destruction to eliminate the Cavern issue.

    Cavern presents a huge problem for us and other control decks because it clearly eliminates the ability to control the stack. This means we're relying on controlling the board, without the same number of sweepers or direct kill spells as other control decks. It can sometimes becomes a matter of getting Tron + Academy Ruins and an OStone in the yard to keep the board under control.

    All this to say, the matchup is not good. I would personally, in looking at your list, dump the Tec Edge for Field of Ruin in the side and consider using Ghost Quarter in the main, instead of Field. That was a change I made, after analyzing the "Japanese List", to my personal deck, and I quite like it.

    You may also want to consider dumping Gifts and Gearhulk for lower CMC spells + better early game spells. I've messed around with Gearhulk and think the 5/6 body at instant speed with the snapcaster effect is awesome, but, I believe many others have mentioned this, he's dead too often in the early game to make the infrequent situational late game use worth it.

    My thought on Gifts has always been similar. Yeah, it's great when you get to that point in the game and can punish your opponent with Gifts, but those aren't the matchups that are worth devoting more cards to, in my opinion.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from rothgar13 »
    I think we should at least think about it and perhaps test it, even if it doesn't end up making the cut in the end. Draw 2 from the land spot is powerful.


    The card isn't remotely comparable to Tolaria West. You wouldn't play Blighted Cataract, and you wouldn't play this.


    Coming into play tapped off the Memorial is exceedingly awful. Add onto that, it's 5 and sac for draw 2. You'd be better playing a search for Azcanta, which has a lower cost to draw and stays in as a blue source.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Has anyone looked at Wizard's Retort as a viable inclusion to the deck, considering the use of Treasure Mage and Trinket Mage (which are "Wizards") in UTron?

    I realize the UU cost can still be steep for us, but a hard counter for UU with a Mage on the field is exceptional.

    Also, Navigator's Compass as a possible mana fixer, occupying the space(s) that Talisman(s) usually occupy? 1 CMC for 3 life + making Urza lands into U sources, or any land into another color for purposes of pumping Engineered Explosives, and, if needed, tutor-able off of Trinket Mage, seems like a much better deal...
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on 8Rack
    Just run hero's downfall to deal with walkers, after the new rule goes live. The amount of walkers running around isn't frightening.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Quote from LeoTzu »
    Yikes. We’re truly just splicing semantics at this point.

    Free Win is just a term slung around to indicate that a deck can produce a game-state (generally early on) that makes their opponent’s decisions almost negligible for the remainder of the game. Control decks generally don’t have this, or have to match resource for resource until they can present a win condition.

    Land drop-->pass turn, wait to kill/counter/stop what your opponent is doing doesn’t really fit that bill.


    This is probably one of the better ways to describe a "free win". Alternatively, it's sitting down in a matchup knowing the chances of winning the matchup are exceedingly high, almost entirely irrespective of the cards drawn.

    Though, I would say Control does have a readily identified free win in Skred. Skred typically casts 1 spell per turn. Control can lock Skred out of almost any actions from the time Skred is able to take any worthwhile action to the very end. Is it free in the sense that Control will end the game very quickly and just dominate the life totals? No. However, it is free in the sense that both players know the Skred player is unlikely to make any form of meaningful action to advance their game plan, meaning the Control player has exercised near total control over the entire match, which is how Control is able to win.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from BANTxMAN »
    How important has the single gemstone caverns been for you guys? I rarely see it in opening hands on the draw and i just saw that i could sell it for $24 store credit. Would i be missing out by selling it? It just seems like it barely improves win percentage and there are other lands that could be played with more utility, even another blue source.


    When you get it, it's amazing. When you don't, it's almost the absolute worst draw. As you mentioned, you rarely draw it, as it is a 1 of. I've just recently cut it from the deck. I do agree with rabbit though, I don't know that I'd sell it just yet, unless there's something you absolutely need for the deck.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from thnkr »
    @Funslaver, That's just how the data pans out. Of course, as Pesca97 noted, it is a drop from 69.3% to 64.47%. So while the win rate is still decent (at least above 50%), it's still a drop. The data could also just be resorted by column G, which would just rank them by strictly the win % with those cards in hand, rather than a raise or drop in win percentage.

    @BloodyRabbit_01, I understand if it means nothing to you, but it actually does mean something. Quite literally, it shows how well the deck survives the early game with or without those specific cards in the opening hand. To say that this means nothing is about the equivalent of saying that mulligans aren't necessary.

    I'm going to see if I can find some other sources of videos to diversify the input. It might take a bit longer to get the same amount of data, but at least it'll be a little more mixed. Even the Lantern data had both Whir and Bg versions combined.
    Quote from thnkr »
    @Funslaver, That's just how the data pans out. Of course, as Pesca97 noted, it is a drop from 69.3% to 64.47%. So while the win rate is still decent (at least above 50%), it's still a drop. The data could also just be resorted by column G, which would just rank them by strictly the win % with those cards in hand, rather than a raise or drop in win percentage.

    @BloodyRabbit_01, I understand if it means nothing to you, but it actually does mean something. Quite literally, it shows how well the deck survives the early game with or without those specific cards in the opening hand. To say that this means nothing is about the equivalent of saying that mulligans aren't necessary.

    I'm going to see if I can find some other sources of videos to diversify the input. It might take a bit longer to get the same amount of data, but at least it'll be a little more mixed. Even the Lantern data had both Whir and Bg versions combined.


    Pie did create a video that contained both his data and Shoks, i thought. That link is in this thread somewhere and findable via google too.
    Posted in: Control
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