I've been trying to think of ways to build something more similar to Legacy Lands in Modern. Has anyone tried Field of the Dead? I feel like it synergizes with the whole deck and gives a strong late game. I slapped things together tonight so sorry if it is rough. I have yet to playtest other than goldfishing but I hope to play it live this weekend.
Mulch can be pretty insane in this deck and can sometimes be 2 mana 8 damage. I'm a bit skeptical on Hour of Promise but it can be pretty good with Field.
I wanted to try and go completely creatureless but not sure what to cut Reclaimer and Grazer for. Maybe go Jund and remove out the creatures for discard spells and probably the Bolts for Bob.
Have yet to build a sideboard but my goal is to get to a creatureless build and then run Tireless Tracker and maybe Goyf out of the side to surprise people and be a little transformational.
Good catch on Cage. You can swap that for Nihil Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt. The Lotus Bloom plan might be too cute. Citadel in Lantern would just be a way to pivot and close the game. It would make the deck play a bit like Twin or Legacy Lands i.e. play a control game but pivot to a combo win on a moments notice (which is really effective because it forces the beatdown opponent to hold back resources to disrupt your combo). The plan is to do the normal Lantern thing with the mill rocks and then whir on the end of one of their turns into a win. I like the plan because those mill rocks will help you combo them out. Also, you only new 1 or 2 copies of Citadel for this plan. You basically never want to draw it. I'm curious how fast Lantern can get out enough artifacts to Whir into Citadel. Anyone with experience with the deck care to weigh in?
My thought process was if you are going to be playing 80% of the same cards as Lantern you may as well include Whir and be able to play a control game. The question is whether cantrips are better than discard. I assume yes because this combo is a little too slow to be all-in without any defensive/distruptive plan.
Of course you can try to build a RW version with Trash for Treasure, Reburbish, looting, etc. but again, I think that would be too fragile. All of this requires testing of course.
How are you guys testing Citadel right now by the way? I would love to jam some games.
I love the ideas in this thread. What do you guys think about putting Citadel in a Lantern Shell? I like the idea that the Lantern cards combo with Citadel. Something like this:
4 Whir of Invention
2 Reshape
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ancient Stirrings
Disclaimer to start: I do not think that Wizards have anything cut in stone, and that they very likely do a wait and see approach with regards to Modern Horizons and how they follow it up.
So how wild is this theory?
honestly its pretty wild.
Thanks for taking the time, its interesting to get a discussion going.
I guess it is one way it could go among a ton of others, as you say. But when it comes to "respecting what Modern has to offer", isn't printing Modern Horizons already "disrespecting" Modern? Or, at least, it could be framed that way? Printing strong cards into Modern would presumably shift the format around, raise the power level, break some rules and step on some toes..?
As for wishful thinking.. maybe a bit, maybe not. I wish Legacy would be allowed to be its own thing and thrive, to be honest. But I also like the idea of having an "eternal" format that isn't touched by the reserved list.
Come to think of it. What are the defining characteristics of Modern vs. Legacy? I could suggest Modern has very little fast mana, (almost) no free counterspells, no brainstorm and a fetch-shock mana base. If they print 3-4 Modern Horizon sets, but stay clear of those (or probably, a better, more thought out set of) rules, will we conserve Modern's uniqueness?
It is also possible that they only want to do this once. Use MH to shore up some of the formats weaknesses (A modern-level FoW, a modern-level Wasteland, etc.) and then sit back and let the format evolve forever with new Standard cards and the tools to adapt to whatever will be the next Cathartic Reunion/Reality Smasher. That sounds sweet.
I think you guys are both correct in a lot of ways.
I don't think Horizons is disrespecting Modern as much as it is acknowledging Standard is too low power for them to be able to print the type of cards that Modern needs to self-regulate.
If I had to predict where things will be in five years, you’re going to see the eternal formats shift from vintage, legacy, and modern to vintage, modern (with horizon sets), and "arena eternal."
In the long-term, they need an eternal format that doesn’t rely upon the reserve list. Legacy is already at $3000 per deck. That cannot work forever especially when the cost continues to rise. It also can never really grow. And they need something to do with rotated Arena cards so its plainly obvious Arena Eternal is going to be a thing.
Modern is fun to play but seems like it’s an inherently broken format that cannot self-regulate the way Legacy does. Instead it seems to require constant bannings. I believe Horizons is supposed to fix that problem.
As for the first Horizons set, I guess they start conservatively but we can probably expect: (1) reprinting a lot of sweet cards that are not in Modern but are too weak for Legacy e.g. FoF (who doesn't love this card? quite a shame there's no format for it), Vindicate, Counterspell, Pernicious Deed, etc.; and (2) print “Modern” versions of the police cards that hold Legacy together, primarily FoW (could just reprint Foil), Daze (could just be daze), Wasteland (could be something like Dustbowl or "*****ty Wasteland" comes into play tapped or sack *****ty Wasteland and pay 1/2).
The main thing they have to avoid is raising Modern’s overall power level. To me, one of the nice things about Modern is that its low power level enough that new sets can actually create new archetypes. Conversely, this is not the case for Legacy. Every now and again a Standard card will slot into an existing Legacy deck but it’s been quite a while since a new deck has actually been created. This makes the format very stale and I imagine WOTC is smart enough to avoid this mistake with Horizons.
I'm very apprehensive about them accidentally breaking Modern with this. Whenever they actually try to help, they often to more harm than good. It also doesn't bode well for any unbans in at least the next year, since this will serve as their Modern shake-up.
Honestly I think this is a complete necessity. If you compare Legacy to Modern, Modern is so much more linear and uninteractive. That's because its missing the right answers to police the format, mainly Wasteland, FoW, and Daze. Without these cards (or similar Modern versions) you are just going to see a never-ending pattern of broken unfair decks being banned with a new one coming up and taking its place.
Since they would never put these police cards in Standard they had to move toward printing for Modern. I am really hopeful for this change to make Modern an even better format. If they can make it play like Legacy without the reserve list that would be freaking amazing. They just need to make sure there is a viable tempo-aggro-control deck (Legacy equivalent would be Delver) and a viable full control deck (Legacy equivalent would be miracles) always in the meta and you will see things being much healthier overall.
Problem: Maze's End requires 10 different NAMED gates. That means you'd need to be playing at least 1 of each gate with 3/4 copies of yoru main colors.
Think it makes more sense to go creatureless and blank their removal spells. I believe you can accomplish the role of those cards better by running the Molten Vortex / Scapeshift Plan / Splendid Reclamation plan.
3 Molten Vortex
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Gates Ablaze
2 Maze's End
18 Gates
6 Basics
Basically just trying to stall with Rootmaze, Gates Ablaze, and Molten Vortex until you can lead into Scapeshift and/or Splendid Reclamation for the win. Too bad Exploration is not modern legal. Need to playtest and determine whether the deck needs to add in cards like Explore and Rites of Flourishing.
The deck is still trash but beating someone like this is well worth playing the jank.
Feels like The Mirari Conjecture would be a nice one of. Like a Planeswalker, it's naturally good with taking turns. The first counter gets you back a card draw or counter, second one gets you another turn, last one probably wins you the game on the spot
I think everyone can agree the current Standard meta is broken. The question is how to fix it.
With Wizards no longer printing core sets the Standard card pool is not only more limited but also far too based on the flavor of the current Standard sets. While some staples get reprinted from time to time (e.g. Shock) the format lacks basic staples. By instituting a Standard Masters set (essentially a rebranded core set) Wizards can increase the Standard card pool without having to mess with rotations or new set cycles.
I would propose the printing of a Standard Masters series. This set would be printed on an annual basis such that one Standard Masters would be in the format at any given point with roughly 300 cards pet set. It would be up to Wizards to determine how much each printing would vary year to year. Due to the adoption of a State of Standard thread that includes this subject matter, this thread is locked. -hoser2
I think this would go a long way in ensuring they can have proper answers in constructed without ruining their draft format.
Has anyone tested Armorcraft Judge in this list as a one or two of in the non affinity lists? Seems like the perfect plays would be T1 Experiment One -> T2 Constrictor -> T3 Rishkar -> T4 Armorcraft (and another creature off Rishkar mana).
3 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Mulch
3 Arboreal Grazer
2 Hour of Promise
4 Seismic Assault
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Wrenn and Six
4 Life From the Loam
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Blast Zone
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Field of Ruin
4 Field of the Dead
1 Raging Ravine
4 Stomping Grounds
2 Cinder Glade
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Sheltered Thicket
Mulch can be pretty insane in this deck and can sometimes be 2 mana 8 damage. I'm a bit skeptical on Hour of Promise but it can be pretty good with Field.
I wanted to try and go completely creatureless but not sure what to cut Reclaimer and Grazer for. Maybe go Jund and remove out the creatures for discard spells and probably the Bolts for Bob.
Have yet to build a sideboard but my goal is to get to a creatureless build and then run Tireless Tracker and maybe Goyf out of the side to surprise people and be a little transformational.
My thought process was if you are going to be playing 80% of the same cards as Lantern you may as well include Whir and be able to play a control game. The question is whether cantrips are better than discard. I assume yes because this combo is a little too slow to be all-in without any defensive/distruptive plan.
Of course you can try to build a RW version with Trash for Treasure, Reburbish, looting, etc. but again, I think that would be too fragile. All of this requires testing of course.
How are you guys testing Citadel right now by the way? I would love to jam some games.
4 Whir of Invention
2 Reshape
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Lotus Bloom
2 Bolas’s Citadel
3 Aetherflux Reservoir
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Graffdiggers Cage
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Academy Ruins
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Glimmervoid
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
1 River of Tears
4 Spire of Industry
I think you guys are both correct in a lot of ways.
I don't think Horizons is disrespecting Modern as much as it is acknowledging Standard is too low power for them to be able to print the type of cards that Modern needs to self-regulate.
If I had to predict where things will be in five years, you’re going to see the eternal formats shift from vintage, legacy, and modern to vintage, modern (with horizon sets), and "arena eternal."
In the long-term, they need an eternal format that doesn’t rely upon the reserve list. Legacy is already at $3000 per deck. That cannot work forever especially when the cost continues to rise. It also can never really grow. And they need something to do with rotated Arena cards so its plainly obvious Arena Eternal is going to be a thing.
Modern is fun to play but seems like it’s an inherently broken format that cannot self-regulate the way Legacy does. Instead it seems to require constant bannings. I believe Horizons is supposed to fix that problem.
As for the first Horizons set, I guess they start conservatively but we can probably expect: (1) reprinting a lot of sweet cards that are not in Modern but are too weak for Legacy e.g. FoF (who doesn't love this card? quite a shame there's no format for it), Vindicate, Counterspell, Pernicious Deed, etc.; and (2) print “Modern” versions of the police cards that hold Legacy together, primarily FoW (could just reprint Foil), Daze (could just be daze), Wasteland (could be something like Dustbowl or "*****ty Wasteland" comes into play tapped or sack *****ty Wasteland and pay 1/2).
The main thing they have to avoid is raising Modern’s overall power level. To me, one of the nice things about Modern is that its low power level enough that new sets can actually create new archetypes. Conversely, this is not the case for Legacy. Every now and again a Standard card will slot into an existing Legacy deck but it’s been quite a while since a new deck has actually been created. This makes the format very stale and I imagine WOTC is smart enough to avoid this mistake with Horizons.
Honestly I think this is a complete necessity. If you compare Legacy to Modern, Modern is so much more linear and uninteractive. That's because its missing the right answers to police the format, mainly Wasteland, FoW, and Daze. Without these cards (or similar Modern versions) you are just going to see a never-ending pattern of broken unfair decks being banned with a new one coming up and taking its place.
Since they would never put these police cards in Standard they had to move toward printing for Modern. I am really hopeful for this change to make Modern an even better format. If they can make it play like Legacy without the reserve list that would be freaking amazing. They just need to make sure there is a viable tempo-aggro-control deck (Legacy equivalent would be Delver) and a viable full control deck (Legacy equivalent would be miracles) always in the meta and you will see things being much healthier overall.
Think it makes more sense to go creatureless and blank their removal spells. I believe you can accomplish the role of those cards better by running the Molten Vortex / Scapeshift Plan / Splendid Reclamation plan.
4 Amulet of Vigor
3 Root Maze
2 Circuitous Route
4 Open the Gates
4 Scapeshift
4 Splendid Reclamation
4 Guild Summit
3 Molten Vortex
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Gates Ablaze
2 Maze's End
18 Gates
6 Basics
Basically just trying to stall with Rootmaze, Gates Ablaze, and Molten Vortex until you can lead into Scapeshift and/or Splendid Reclamation for the win. Too bad Exploration is not modern legal. Need to playtest and determine whether the deck needs to add in cards like Explore and Rites of Flourishing.
The deck is still trash but beating someone like this is well worth playing the jank.
It does feel over costed by one mana though.
With Wizards no longer printing core sets the Standard card pool is not only more limited but also far too based on the flavor of the current Standard sets. While some staples get reprinted from time to time (e.g. Shock) the format lacks basic staples. By instituting a Standard Masters set (essentially a rebranded core set) Wizards can increase the Standard card pool without having to mess with rotations or new set cycles.
I would propose the printing of a Standard Masters series. This set would be printed on an annual basis such that one Standard Masters would be in the format at any given point with roughly 300 cards pet set. It would be up to Wizards to determine how much each printing would vary year to year.
Due to the adoption of a State of Standard thread that includes this subject matter, this thread is locked. -hoser2
I think this would go a long way in ensuring they can have proper answers in constructed without ruining their draft format.