Yea but they still play 4x Welding jar they never get to use against us. they will sit there and sca just before the ability of the land resolves. We are talking about a land that'r requiring so much mana investment to set up, maybe you'll get to steal one game and it will feel great, but that's not changing you winrate against pretty much any archetype. It's just reasonable to crack it for zero, hitting vials and wanderers is enough to hold me back from testing it in UW, not even mentioning bant which is 3 colours and has 4 more 1cmc drops.
Simmetry and tempo are key, this land fits a mono red prison type of deck, but feel free to make your tests. everything comes down to that, eventually
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Apr 15, 2019You have named 3 matchups where they either kill you before you have the time to set that thing up, or they name it with spyglass. My feeling about this engineered explosives-type of effects is that they aren't good because they are symmetrical. They look appealing but they end up being a trap on the long run. I think Deputy already does the job very well.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Apr 14, 2019Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Aramchik »Any thoughts on the recent War of the Spark spoilers? No spirits so far.. well there is one, but it sucks
I actually hope for no support to come in the near future in the U W G colours. Bant spirits is already fine and if it hadn't been for the rise of phoenix it would dominate the meta or it would be the most represented deck at least. Such an archetype deserves one sideboard card at most, I have seen plenty of people succeeding with that version having no idea about how to sequence our most fondamental creatures, some of them lacked the basis of magic rulings and they still managed to hit the top 4 of local tourneys because Collected Company into hexproof lock/counterpsell/removal(deputy) takes no brain.
The deck can be so straightforward compared to any other version that I'm hoping for no more intuitive-playable stuff, I don't like that part of the game that reminds me of the "turn 3 karn " scenarios( not to be taken litterally), it's frustrating when a deck makes people consistently win without some refined thinking being involved. This in the way I feel about it.
As for the future, I'll welcome experiments as Pestilent Spirits and I'll hope for the best tribe in modern not to get more busted cards, so that it will be more about the player and less about the list.
Apr 14, 2019Hi all, I've enjoyed UW control videos and gameplay enough to join your side of the game. The first thing I'd like to ask is if the terminus version is still worth the loss of the serum visions set and the presence of the third jace tms. I remember a discussion I've read last summer about Ivan Floch and other hall of famers runing SV over the full set of Opts, while still picking terminus as a wrath effect...Posted in: Control
I've played my first FNM with 2 Verdicts and 2 Settle, 3+3 Sv/ opts just to see how those two types of cantrip work, one Gideon AoZ in replacement of the 3rd Jace, and it felt very good (faced eldrazi tron, mardu pyro, ur phoenix. Gideon has been impressive by the way). I kind of feel Terminus is very relevant in the Spirits mu ( I'm a Spirits player,I know how easier life is when UW is on the settle/verdict plan), but I wonder If it's actually superior to the settle/verdict split against dredge and phoenix given that shuffling occurs during the game and looting digs for those threats again.
Also,in my meta GDS is well represented, and I can see Verdict being much safer than Teminus there.
Other than this, I'd like to hear something about the mana and the effort you have to put to set up Terminus. I believe someone here said months ago you've got less than 15% to flip terminus off the top, but I'm actually more worried about this 6 mana sorcery that needs Jace to be set up, which means it's not coming down before turn 5 when you don't happen to draw it as the first card for the turn...
Another thing I'm debating on is which should be the spot removal #5: I have heard good about condemn because of the instant speed nature, which is good along with snap and it's very good vs GDS, but it depends on the creature attacking, and once again I'm not a fan of textboxes with conditions. How about oust to get rid of bears ( exp if they know I'm on the Settle plan)or creature combo pieces like Vannifar, or lavamancer, Teeg and that type of garbage? Is Blessed Alliance too mana inefficient to be considered in that spot?
Apr 11, 2019Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from redtwister »I would also expect 3 Damping Sphere and 2 Disdainful Stroke in SpookyGoose's deck to make it solid against Tron, as much as we can be, and the card I think I fear the most in Whir Prison is Bridge and/or Whir into Bridge or EE, and Stony only stops EE. Sideboard, they can bring in Torpor Orb, which also ignored Stony.
Yeah, the problem with Whirl is stony not affecting static abilities, so bridge and torpor orb don't get answered. Then they land Aether Grid and they take value out of every artifact on the field, or they close it with tezzereth.
Stony is excellent against tron on curve, but it doesn't beat a map on the play, nor a natural tron, and it's useless later in the game, whereas Damping Sphere hoses them at any point but it lets them cycle and activate stone. As things stand, I think a mix of the two is desireable, and I don't see stony being more than a 1x in the side. Those numbers about the Scales and Affinity matchups really make me think.
Apr 9, 2019Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from redtwister »@SpookyGoose
Results from GP Bilbao also interesting, and I don't know the lists of those Spirit decks, but I'm betting they ran 2-3 Stony and if they did, it didn't seem to matter much...
5-0 versus Mill (100%)
3-10 versus Hardened Scales (23.1%)
2-9 versus Affinity (18.2%)"
This is really interesting. How about the datas against tron and Whirl?
Apr 7, 2019For the Esper souls: I've been giving a chance to Kaya, orzhov usurper, and I'm pleased. A closer look reveals how many 1cmc permanents are actually present in the top 6-7 decks of the format and how many of them do take benefit out of their graveyard, making both the +1 and -1 potentially relevant. It's slow, as every PW, but it does work and gives you a chance to shot the opponent with her ultimate. Differently from Dovin, which I'm replacing with Kira, Kaya does stuff with her +1 instead of just setting up, and she does gain life going up, something sweet against burn. However she doesn't protect herself on an empty board as Dovin does, this is why I believe Dovin is a maindeckable PW, Kaya is a sideboard option. I love the extra interaction with the graveyard that my sideboard features now, I think 4x anti graveyard effects are important nowadays.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Today I attended a 40 people tourney facing Whirl L, Bant Spirits W, Shadow D, Nausea W, UR Kiki W and Amulet Titan W, and made it into the top8, losing to UW control. I actually didn't miss Worship, which I do a bit more at the FNM level where linear aggro decks show up more consistently.
Also, I'm bringing back Kira in my 75: I think it is really important to play Kira in Esper because of the Humans and Spirits mirror. Deputy of Detention is a nightmare when you re running lingering souls; since I moved to Esper two months ago, Kira has been the card I ve been missing the most. Kira's so good against humans and spirits because of Deputy and reflector, UR/Grixis/jund/jeskai/GB and burn too because she counters all of their searing effects.
When you re not playing curious obsession, I believe it's a mistake not to have Kira whetever the non-Bant splash you are playing is. Same goes for the split Deputy-Detention Shpere in whatever non-company version, because you want the exile effect against Torpor Orb and something extra agsint shadow that is not dying to removal spells.
This is my list with the latest adjustments:
Apr 3, 2019Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from stewieG21 »
I know a lot of people don't like the main deck eidolon of the great revels but I have won so many games with my opponent at 2 and one of those out I am sold on them. They speed up the clock dramatically. There are very few decks in modern I don't want them in against.
Half of the metagame right now is hostile to mainboard eidolon: humans, burn, dredge( and midrange to some extent ) are matchups where eidolon works against you. Bant Spirts is also one of those where the variability is too high to justify it in the 60s.
Eidolon is great and pushes the race by its own when you re against a slower deck, otherwise is a card that ends up hitting you more than the opponent. You really have to cross your fingest and hope to find control, combo or some deck working with lots of cheap spells like whirl or phoenix.
To be honest, of the matchups you have mentioned, I think golgari was the only dubious one , it can be either good or quite bad, it depends on the first 3 tuns of the game and the number of goyfs they play. Affinity is also a tricky one if they deploy their hand soon enough.
Same goes for bolt, it can be as efficient as push at removing creatures or just a card to throw at the opponent's face. It does steal games, but I ended up not finding it realiable on a long run because you have no way to take care of goyfs, kalitas, Things, Drakes, late game champions or pumped humans, it fails at killing a spell queller when they've got a phantom down, there're too many spots where it comes too late and shooting the face is the only appealing option.
It's also possible that one should go all in on the burn strategy, pretty much like you did with 4 Eid, 4 Bolts, but the liability is there and is quite big.
Mar 21, 2019Speaking of siding against Phoenix, is that crazy to cut all the 4 mausoleum wanderers? I ve been trying so many post side configurations and cutting wanderers has been the most convincing.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
The reason is that you can't realistically counter looting or cantrips, best case scenario you trade for an early morphose. It's hard to even trade with a bolt because they always get to play the number of lands they need to safely cast their stuff. The longer the game goes, the worse wanderer gets to be, it's an horrible top deck because it races poorly and it doesn't even trade with a phoenix by its own.
Spirit of labyrinth is fine against looting, but as much as I love playing just spirts in this deck, I think thalia offers a better tax plan against the field, especially now hollow one is gone and so is pyromancer.
Damping sphere is good when deployed early but I ended up leaving it in the side, I value rest in peace way more because it shuts the flashback of looting which is incredibly good in the mid game. That flashback allows them to cycle lands and flip a thing in the ice which would take turns to do so otherwise. Also getting rid of Phoenix permanently is pretty good. I ve read many plans and I don't see RiP that often and I'm surprised. I find it very relevant even in esper where I'm loosing half a Lingering souls.
Dovin also works better in esper because of all the tokens you can produce, not that it wouldn't work in UW, because it's true that my esper version plays as a regular UW sprits a lot of times where I don't get to draw souls, but it's overall better positioned in such a version with higher removal count and souls. I feel like it's a flexible mb card, sideboard needs silver bullets. This is how I intend it.
Testing in competitive leagues is the only reliable source of informations by the way: you won't get to play against that density of top tier decks and good pilots at any local event nor in any friendly league, so keep it up.
Mar 20, 2019Very decent card, it stands its own on an empty field, it represent a different threat than curious obsession against control, it's very good at generating tempo against midrange and it's always a sweet card against burn. I ve used it to replace obsession because I wanted to diversify a little bit.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Digging ten is crazy yet very slow, and if you ultimate fast you were winning the game already most of the times. I'm hoping for improved 3cmc PW in the future, but this is definitely a reasonable one.
Mar 20, 2019Here's where I'm currently at.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Mar 19, 2019Thoughtseize is still a tempo negative card and it always will be. Fatal Push is sucha good upgrade because it can be tempo neutral or positive, this is the type of cards this decks need to work.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
I like the split 1 deputy - 1 detention sphere by the way, because phoenix decks can't deal with the enchantment and there's no way for them to get back the stuff I steal them. The reason why I felt this change necessary was originally torpor orb, it shuts Deputy down and you have no way to remove the bridge when they are your only answers to it.
Mar 19, 2019I think the question you've got to ask yourself is what am I getting from splashing that colour.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
As far as I see, red gives you reach with bolts and Eidolon (sideboard card in my opinion: it's weird because you'd want it mainboard against phoenix, control and whirl prison, but the meta is also made of dredge, burn, humans, so you would rather not run the risk of drawing it in G1 where it's useless. Not to mention you have to fetch and lose life becasue you might need the double red for eidolon... you can see the implications of its presence mainboard ), and some decent card selection/advantage with Light up the Stage. This last card isn't easy to handle , it demands you to know which card of your sideboard are you able to cast if revealed and how bad it is not to be able to do so, to plan your land drops and sequence it correctly to maximize its effect, prioritizing it over the cards you've got in your hand or vice versa. You have to understand what's your position in the game and what type of effects are you looking for.
Sideboard options with red are Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Alpine Moon, they have both impressed me and I've been looking for more of these types of effects. Alpine moon specifically deals with big mana and Valakut, it curves out perfectly, it's non mana intensive, it allows you to keep playing your game without screwing you colours like Blood Moon does.
I've also tested Blood Sun, which is very interesting because it cycles itself and shuts down animable lands, field of ruins (not to be underestimated, leaving them with colourless mana can hurt) and azcanta. It's a very ok card against control and midrange, some matchups the jeskai version is not as well positioned against as Esper is. Midrange in particular is a very bad one because goyfs are boltproof almost always, oozes also slip quickly out of control, and so does raging ravine.
Jeskai in general is a bit faster than UW, but I wouldn't call it an aggro version... I'd rather call it a tempo version with reach. I've seen some lists running lots of burn spells, I think they are a liability: Timely Reinforcements or any effect of that kind (lighting helix in jeskai control aswell) is going to hit your plan too hard. I like having a minor burn plan, I don't feel comfortable relying too much on them. The damage has still to be dealt via creatures, and creatures are still the backbone of the deck, because they provide interactions and more damage on the long run.
This splash misses a piece and a flexible removal at the moment, something in the form of grim lavamancer, it requires 4+ drawing engines because it's easy to run out of gas and Light up the Stage is a 3of at most in my opinion. I'll stay away from MtGO for a while, but I'd test 3LutS and 2 Obsessions in addition to one or two Boros Charms, if I had the opportunity; my purpose would be to shoot their face or protect the card advantage engine from being removed.
I'm not giving this version too much credit at the moment, dredge and Phoenix both made Bolt weaker in the meta ( interesting to see Scapeshift running flame slash now to deal with thing in the ice and drakes), it really feels sub optimal every time you face one of these deck or a tarmogoyf. There will be better times to splash red.
Esper is the most defensive version but it's peculiar because it's able to turn from controlling to racing very fast thanks to Lingering Souls. Fatal Push and Souls are the reasons to splash black, these are two huge upgrades to the UW colours, they really make the difference. Splashing black means efficient removals to deal with aggro and a good curve topper, Souls, to race back or keep the pressure going against slower decks.
It is a bit weaker against Amulet and Eldrazi, because you're losing the 4x PtE and Nebelgast Herald/Deputy, depending which tempo plan you like most in UW. Other than that, I think is much more versatile and it's way better at taking one or the other role, depending on who's your opponent.
Sideboard choices are pretty much the same as UW, Countersquall is amazing, but I've haven't found anything else appealing... Unmoored Ego is one turn too slow, tried to make it work but I ended up cutting it every time.
Esper is so solid in the first 60s that you won't need anything fancy in the remaining fifteen, this is my conclusion. Also, I'm loving Collective Brutality because it means extra removals or extra disruption , versatile cards perfectly fill your flexible slots.
I'm not sure what type of card might realistically being printed to improve this version ( having a form of reach would be awesome), it suffers Aura Hexproof, big mana and stuff like dredge because it's not fast enough or because you have no mainboard answers to their plan, and phoenix just because they dig their deck so much that you get overwhelmed by the number of their threats. To be honest, this is the problem these decks are causing to the format, something every fair deck is having a hard time to deal with, when they draw 40 cards by the time you have drawn 20, there's not much you can do. Nonetheless, I think Esper has a 50-50 matchup against them, my report sheet says so far 7 wins and 7 losses against UR, and 5 wins and 3 losses against the mono red phoenix version. Some of these losses have been caused by blood moon, because yeah, why wouldn't you want to screw your opponent's mana in addition to drawing twice their cards and reanimating fliers for free?
I ve heard of Chalice of the Void in UW side, this explains pretty much the situation at the moment.
Let's wait for war of the spark and hope for some creative spirit to be released, I most welcome experiments like Pestilent Spirit.
In the mean time, I'll write down some new paragraphs so we can update the primer.
Mar 13, 2019I ve begun to test this jeskai list. It's really hard to say what's the correct number of bolts and the split with pte ( which must be played in my opinion), as much as the role of Eidolon otGR mainboard.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Light up the Stage is a bomb in the mid and late game, it really gave me the feeling i can keep up with UR Phoenix thanks to that, something I fail at with Esper, which is a better version against midrange when it comes to winning the topdeck war with no support from faithless looting and manipulation. LutS also can be used to dig for a card you need and is something you can do under bloodmoon, very sweet feature indeed.
Chandra is a bomb and Slayer's Stronghold is so good at pumping wanderer or simply racing your opponent or forcing an attacker through.
I'll have to test it quite a lot, it feels good for now, but switching from esper to jeskai makes me feel something is lacking, and it's possible that this thing is fatal push, which now is very well positioned because of thing in the ice. Also moving from a list with lingering Souls to one without them does feel bad... Splashing helps you understand the tribe and see the many angles, the weaknesses and its points of strenght.
Whatever, here's my current list
Feb 27, 2019Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from osumatthew »
I'm trying not to react too radically or hastily, but I'm finding that Lingering Souls is just a poor card most of the time. It doesn't really trade well given all the recursive creatures around, and I'm rarely eager to see it off the top. At the same time, I'm finding I would really like mainboard GY hate much of the time. Similarly, people are consistently playing multiples of the same creature onto the board early, and Path to Exile isn't all that great. So, I'm thinking of cutting my number of copies of Lingering Souls to 2, and maybe cutting 1 Selfless Spirit for a pair of Remorseful Clerics to give me some extra graveyard hate. I'm also thinking of replacing Path to Exile with Declaration in Stone. While Path is better in an environment that rewards efficient 1/1 trades, it's not great against many of the threats currently being played. Declaration may be sorcery speed and cost 1 more, but it will permanently exile phoenixes, bloodghasts, Prized Amalgams, Champions of the Parish, etc... along with tokens; as an extra benefit, Declaration's downside of giving clues seems preferable to immediately ramping my opponent. What do you guys think about some of these adjustments?
Well first of all this metagame is being dominated by phoenix, dredge, tron, which are 3 mus we struggle to win in G1. This is worth noting. Other tier decks are burn and Shadow, I mean, this metagame is possibly one of the worse I have seen for Spirits since I ve jumped into modern.
Lingering Souls are still the cards that gives sense to the black splash, I do side them out a lot in a number of games because I need to play at flash speed only, or when I need not to draw clunky cards, but they still are the card you want against Midrange and Control and other GWx decks. There's been a time when I splashed black to see what that could give me and I remember a game where i came not to play souls against blue moon because all of the Spirits I was drawing were more effective. But then you get to play games over games and realize how important is a card that spreads your board and that you get to cast twice. Souls are putting a patch on two of the major issues of tribal decks: the weakness to spot removal density, the need of a critical mass on the board to have your race going.
The card advantage is real and in absence of other non-queller, non-rattlechains CA providers, Souls are the first card to look at when you want to increase that number.
As for PtE, I'm asking myself if one Blessed alliance is actually worse than Path; I'm considering a 1-1 split more precisely. I'll be testing this in the future.
Declaration is OKish, I ve been running this in the side, not a bad card, but then I considered the matchups where it had ad impact, and I ended up swapping it for Worship. I think I ve got enough removals and where my removals fail, I want some other type of effect to keep up with decks drawing 40 cards per game, or doing other degenerate stuff.Quote from Aramchik »Quote from StreexIT »[quote from="Aramchik »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/aggro-tempo/792118-modern-spirits?comment=839"]ok, now some serious question guys. How to side against Humans?
What does your list look like?
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Damping Sphere
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I would actually bring in Alliance and Kira, that's it. They are both very good and the matchup against Humans has always been good/reasonable, at least from my UW perspective.
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