How do we feel about the devoted druid company deck? Do you feel like we should have some things in the board for it or do you feel like we are decently set up to beat them? I think we want all 4 stubborn denials post board if you have them. I think the chords and companies are too important
I agree about waiting until five mana. And five mana happens so infrequently in an 18-19 land deck that it makes me think running only Gurmag Angler just for the 5/5 body is reasonable. I played a Tasigur on Friday into a Grixis Control player's Tasigur, and if mine had just been Gurmag I would've basically won on the spot. Deckbuilding around that situation feels more beneficial than hoping for a meaningful Tasigur activation in our deck.
I think the upside of it being that much easier to play on turn 2 is too appealing. It does do well in the long game as well. You don't need that much to play a turn 2 tasigur, feels significantly more with Gurmag. Need an extra card like a 2nd street wraith
I'll pipe in that i have not had many problems with Abzan company either. Admittedly a small sample size. 2-0. I think the matchup is pretty close. Spell queller is very good. I'm not sure how the new version of it will go though. Probably worse for us
I've seen Phyrexian Unlife in more sideboards but I never quite grasped what it does and in what match-ups you want it?
If I remember correctly, instant and sorcery spells do not deal infect damage when you are at 0 life? They have to attack you with 10 damage on the board? So I guess it does wonders against Burn, and Combo?
Yeah it's basically an extra 10 or more life. It actively pumps your shadows when you're in the negative too. It's mostly for burn but it's probably pretty decent vs merfolk and zoo too. It's good against lightning storm out of ad nauseam as well
I mean i think Bant Eldrazi is just going to be a really tough matchup (Maybe the toughest). I don't think Damnation is going to sway the matchup that much. You're going to want the 2nd brutality when you play vs burn or a company deck. Stubborn denial is great vs the company decks too and pretty good vs the burn matchup but brutality is an A+ in those matchups
I think lingering souls makes you pretty favored in the mirror. You could potentially play things like Phyrexian unlife as well for the grixis shadow mirror
I tried anguished unmaking, i thought the the lifeloss wasn't worth it. You can't really bring it in for the aggressive matchups. 3 life seems like a lot vs affinity when they're going to be pressuring your life total anyways. Echoing truth is excellent vs affinity, merfolk, lingering souls tokens, tron threats, ensnaring bridge, weird cards like worship, big eldrazi, elves. It's just great. The main appeal is it eats up leyline of sanctity. Which can be a problem against the decks we need to disrupt from the hand. It comes in vs almost everything. And i am playing 1 disenchant. I considered cutting it for the 2nd truth. Disenchant is fine though. I would probably play the 2nd truth over the anguished unmaking
The only sideboard cards i didn't touch were the ranger and geist. There weren't any grindy decks there, i am certain i would want them in those matchups. The orzhov charm was pretty good. I only got the chance to use 1 mode though. Against affinity and merfolk. It was fine though. The card that i brought in the most was echoing truth, idk if any of you guys have tried it but it's a great catch all to just about every deck in the format. I got to bounce a couple leylines against ad nauseam. (Which was huge). The 3 stubborn denials main deck i liked a lot, i think it's just important we are able to interact with just about everybody. I brought in the extra 2 vs swans and ad nauseam and they didn't disappoint. Like i said, everything felt great. I think 2 is the right number of souls in the maindeck. I brought them in vs affinity which it's great there. I boarded out street wraith vs the aggressive decks. I feel like i'm more aggressive than i should be with my life total sometimes, it almost cost me a couple games. It was my first time playing a shadow deck though so i'm sure it'll come with time.
On delver i think street wraith is where you want to be. Despite boarding it out in the aggressive matchups it's pretty important in the combo matchups. It enables turn 2 delve threats pretty regularly along with a thought scour. Along with the obvious quicker death's shadow
I entered a local tourney with esper shadow Saturday and i won. It was only 12 people though. I beat merfolk, affinity, seismic swans, and ad nauseam with a cut to top 4. beating Hatebears and Ad Nauseam in the top 4. Here is my list, i don't think i would change anything, it was great. None of the matchups were very close. I honestly feel like this is the best shadow shell. People just don't know it yet. It answers small creatures, big creatures, combo decks and it kills quickly. It just does everything you could want
You're going to ask the same question because it got lost in the noise of esper shadow comments? lol. Your comment is 2 comments up dude, i'm sure people will see it. Esper Shadow and Grixis shadow have like 10 cards difference (Minus the lands). They have the same strategy in about every matchup, i think discussing the merits of each deck and comparing them is a reasonable thing to do.
I think echoing truth is a great catch all for the sideboard. Specifically against Leyline of sanctity where those cards are back breaking. Echoing truth is also great against affinity, lingering souls, merfolk, tron threats, lantern control, and many other random decks. It is pretty similar to maelstrom pulse, it's rarely bad
I have some basic questions for the combo lists. How many creatures should we have post board for optimal collected company hits? 26? Are we taking retreats out vs affinity and burn? I know burn will probably bring in revelry's so i could see cutting them there. I assume most lists are playing 28 creatures so i'm finding it hard to sideboard without taking the retreats out. Specifically against things like affinity where i'm bringing in 10 cards. 5 of them are creatures but my creature count falls to 24
You ONLY leave retreat in against hard to interact with combo decks (IE ad nauseam, tron, sometimes elves, etc). Thereby, you definitely cut retreat against burn and affinity.
The basic idea of retreat is that it enables you to get "lucky." Essentially, knightfall is a tempo, midrange deck. So, when we draw "bad" cards (like scavenging ooze vs tron), we can lose tempo. The combo let's us win even when we have lost tempo. However, post-board it should be cut as the greatest loss of tempo is drawing retreat without knight. Post-board, we side out the "bad" cards for good ones. We should only have live draws. The thing is, decks like tron are hard to interact with even post-board. In those matchups, the combo stays in.
As to creature count, the more the better. Rarely can you whiff on company and still win. Also, we're running 7-8 mana dorks which usually aren't "real" huts. That said, the lowest I'm willing to ever go is 24.
Thanks for the reply, it helps a lot and makes a lot of sense!
I have some basic questions for the combo lists. How many creatures should we have post board for optimal collected company hits? 26? Are we taking retreats out vs affinity and burn? I know burn will probably bring in revelry's so i could see cutting them there. I assume most lists are playing 28 creatures so i'm finding it hard to sideboard without taking the retreats out. Specifically against things like affinity where i'm bringing in 10 cards. 5 of them are creatures but my creature count falls to 24
I'm currently at 15 creature 3 drops and 1 retreat for a total of 16 3cmc spells but I am also playing 8 dorks. It's much more inviting to play this number of dorks and 3 drops if you are playing tireless Tracker at higher numbers. It also makes your company's much more potent. If you are playing more retreat you must consider your creature lineup a bit more.
I think 8 will always be more important than 7 because your deck is entirely predicated on tempo and 3cmc spells. The difference between this deck and abzan is their deck runs an infinite combo which can be tutored for. They can afford to have less Mana dorks than us cuz they have inevitability. Our deck is fair with a finite combo. Having the highest chances to open knight on turn 2 is our recipe to success; anything else is just mediocre.
I agree that your company hits will be a lot better with more 3 drops. What did you cut to make room for all your 3 drops? Voice of resurgence? Selfless Spirit? I think i like the number 13 or 14. I don't think i want to see a hand of no dorks 3 lands and 4 3 drops or 4 lands and 3 3 drops that i often see already haha. Like i said i'm currently on 8 dorks because the deck feels a lot better when you have a turn 1 dork.
I've been playing bant company without the retreats but i'm thinking about giving them another go, what is the consensus number of 3 drops in the deck? I'm currently at 12 (with reflector mage instead of retreat), is that a normal number or are a lot of lists playing 13-14? I was thinking of playing 4 spell queller, 4 knight, 2 retreat, 2 tracker and a courser. I assume we have to up our mana dork count to 8 if i add in more 3 drops.
I think the upside of it being that much easier to play on turn 2 is too appealing. It does do well in the long game as well. You don't need that much to play a turn 2 tasigur, feels significantly more with Gurmag. Need an extra card like a 2nd street wraith
Yeah it's basically an extra 10 or more life. It actively pumps your shadows when you're in the negative too. It's mostly for burn but it's probably pretty decent vs merfolk and zoo too. It's good against lightning storm out of ad nauseam as well
I tried anguished unmaking, i thought the the lifeloss wasn't worth it. You can't really bring it in for the aggressive matchups. 3 life seems like a lot vs affinity when they're going to be pressuring your life total anyways. Echoing truth is excellent vs affinity, merfolk, lingering souls tokens, tron threats, ensnaring bridge, weird cards like worship, big eldrazi, elves. It's just great. The main appeal is it eats up leyline of sanctity. Which can be a problem against the decks we need to disrupt from the hand. It comes in vs almost everything. And i am playing 1 disenchant. I considered cutting it for the 2nd truth. Disenchant is fine though. I would probably play the 2nd truth over the anguished unmaking
On delver i think street wraith is where you want to be. Despite boarding it out in the aggressive matchups it's pretty important in the combo matchups. It enables turn 2 delve threats pretty regularly along with a thought scour. Along with the obvious quicker death's shadow
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Lingering Souls
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrines
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Countersquall
1 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Lingering Souls
1 Ranger of Eos
Board out all of your removal vs merfolk. Duh
Thanks for the reply, it helps a lot and makes a lot of sense!
I agree that your company hits will be a lot better with more 3 drops. What did you cut to make room for all your 3 drops? Voice of resurgence? Selfless Spirit? I think i like the number 13 or 14. I don't think i want to see a hand of no dorks 3 lands and 4 3 drops or 4 lands and 3 3 drops that i often see already haha. Like i said i'm currently on 8 dorks because the deck feels a lot better when you have a turn 1 dork.