...where does black offer clones. Where does black add drawing cards
The only reason I would add blue is for Phantasmal Image, and don't get me wrong..I've thought about adding one island just for him. I wouldn't use anything like Ponder or Preordain.. IMHO they're a waste of space in this deck.
The only reason I would add white is for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite; and she costs 2 white..so that's not very viable. None of the other things offered by white seem worth it to me, except maybeBaneslayer Angel, but again..she costs 2 white.
The reason(s) why I won't remove black are (mainly):
I can easily get some dual lands but not fetches. It may sound silly but I had lots of problems about which ones should I get. Most of them slows down deck by coming tapped on the field. I was thinking about Razorvege Thickets and Glacial Fortresses. I think that'd be a good team.
After some initial testing I want this deck to be Bant - removing Green makes your Pod hurt you, removes Acidic Slime and Viridian Emissary. Removing White removes lots of nice utility and Elesh Norn. Removing Blue removes Deceiver Exarch, who speeds up this deck a lot and clones.
You have 6 outlets to keep the Fortress from coming into play tapped, and 13 outlets for the Grove. I've been thinking of converting from B/G to Bant and this is how I would do it.. Budget isn't really a concern for me, I just feel this is a really solid land-base for bant pod. The ratios reflect the ratios of the colors in your pretty well, and if you ever don't have BOP in your opponening hand, drop a CIP-tapped land first.
I think it is the definition of winmore. But that aside when do you play it. That's always the hardest. If you have it and pod which do you play first? Does running it and removal lower your threat density significantly? How soon do you often activate it? Is it typically turn 5 or later?
The reason I ask is every ideal line I can think of with it relies on the opponent interacting or is trumped by a more proactive Pod line where I cast a different 3/4 drop threat from my hand instead of Mimic Vat or instead of activating Vat. It only seems relevant later since playing the Vat early means playing less threats that push your opponent to deal with your creatures. And later there seems be almost always something better to be doing.
It's sort of like Glissa in that respect. Even in an aggressive midrange deck dependent on striking damage I found opposing Glissa a joke. As soon as you can threaten huge damage Glissa can't attack. And at a certain point you can fly over or swing lethal. Cards that encourage board stalls arent great unless you know for sure you have inevitability since your dealing with virtual CA that you can't cash in on til you get the opponent in check(using the chess term).
The final aspect is the same hate that works against Pod works against Vat. It isn't plan B it's redundancy. But it's a partial redundancy since it relies on creatures dying, not just being in play. Most Pod lists are based around playing value creatures not killing creatures. With a significant investment in killing creatures it would be fine. So if your list supports that. Otherwise it works together but while Pod alone is pretty much always beneficial Vat isn't and it's another non-creature slot in the deck.
The only non-creature spells in my deck are 4 pod, 4 Beast Within, and 2 Mimic Vat (alongside 27 creature spells). The point of Vat is not to remove their creatures (although it can come in handy) but that it forces them to be more decisive about what they let hit your graveyard.
Every time I discuss Vat with a non-believer they always have the same sort of opinion; that it requires too much activity in order to be useful. The reality of standard (and MTG in general, really) is that not every game is going to be won or lost by turn 6. Often the only way to beat an aggressive deck with pod is to struggle to stay alive, dragging the game out to turn 20 or so, or until they have no steam left. Vat is not necessarily a card you want in your opening hand, but I only have 2 in the deck. Not likely to draw it opening hand, but even if I did, there's nothing wrong with holding on to the Vat from the start till turn 5 or 6 when I have a threat down. When you have a Vat on the table, even creatures like Viridian Emissary, Sylvan Ranger, or Pilgrim's Eye can be threatening since they thin the land out of your deck, and block all day if you're waiting for an answer.
And as far as "requiring interaction from your opponent" is concerned..why is that a bad thing? If my opponent chooses not to attack with his 3/3 because I have an Emissary and a Vat on the table, then isn't the Vat effectively preventing attacks? Or how about if I'm laying the beats with a Obstinate Baloth, Vat on the table, and my opponent holds back his Go for the Throat because he doesn't want a Baloth on my Vat.. Then isn't the Vat effectively protecting my Baloth and ensuring the beats?
The only explanation I can come up with for you people is to try it. If you don't like it, don't use it. Oh and I wouldn't use it in any build other than B/G. There are far too many options in the the other colors (namely blue and white) to warrant running this card. But in B/G it really shines..
I like the idea of Mimic Vat in pod. We can pod our creatures and then we can vat it and pod again and so on. In this way we won't have to worry about podding a Wurmcoil Engine into Elesh Norn, grand cenobite.
Couldn't agree more. I did some play-testing last night and let me just say Mimic Vat was my MVP for the night. It completely saved me against a Valakut and a RDW.
When you drop Vat while you already have some decent threats on the board, it forces them to play around it. Almost every single creature we pod players use instantly becomes more of a threat when imprinted on a Vat.
Valakut and Twin are by no means good, but for my version (BUG), they aren't nearly as bad as many of you described them. Tempered Steel is pretty bad for me, and RDW is terrible. Cawblade, UW and UB are byes.
I'd love to see your list (if you don't mind sharing, that is). I'm really trying to splash a color in my B/G build and I can't decide between blue or white. White obviously gets Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite but blue has some very tempting options as well (Deceiver Exarch!!). So I'd love to see how you put it together, and how your match-ups work out. I know you just gave us a short run-down but I'm more interested in your bad match-ups. My rock pod usually smears through RDW and although Tempered Steel is always gonna be tough..Cawblade is actually the deck I've had the least success against.
I actually keep 1 in my maindeck, and I rarely side him out. So many planeswalkers and equipment around right now..he's so good! Also stops battlements (or other mana makers), steel overseer, and even manlands.
Yes. Being able to get rid of lands is essential vs Valakut. And as you mentioned with multiple ways of destroying lands, (I run edges slimes and beast within) enchantments/artifacts PW and creatures. Really no win condition is safe against it. You can use extraction to cripple their protection by ripping all their mana leaks as well.
I been playing the G/B more for the disruption package here than because of the pod. Any win condition would do. I have had the Valakut players just conceding game 2 after they realize they will be totally hated out.
I am at the point with it where I am waiting for someone to start running mental misstep to counter the extractions. Haven't seen that yet but if it becomes common defense then we might have to consider running misstep as well.
Whats your sideboard like? I'm currently running 3x Memoricide and 4x Despise, along with more toolbox creatures.. I'm not sure if I should drop Despise and go with Surgical Extraction.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant that Spellskite compliments Glissa due to return artifact from graveyard shenanigans. Looking back over my post, I worded that horribly...meant that I preferred to cut Emissary over cutting Spellskite to make room for PM.
Agree that Mortarpod and Birthing Pod don't go well together, but since the creature is the one doing the damage on sacrifice it goes well with Glissa/Vampire Nighthawk/Acidic Slime for those moments when you absolutely, positively have to kill a giant creature threat right this minute. The fact that it provides a secondary sacrifice outlet for Perilous Myr for when Birthing Pod isn't out is just icing on the cake.
I guess overall I couldn't disagree with using it. You make a valid point, so if its working for you then go for it. My list is just so tight that I couldn't imagine removing something to make room for it. This might be because I'm mainboarding Mimic Vats.. but let me know how the Mortarpods work out for you.
I know this is the Rock variant but I think it'd benefit from a one of Cunning Sparkmage in the board against cawblade. hit that sword with a replica or a slime and they'll never hit you with another bird. And they won't expect the red.
I haven't had as much of a problem with their birds and swords as I have with their Gideons destroying my pod fodder and their insane card advantage created by Consecrated Sphinx.
Don't get me wrong though, I love the Sparkmage. He's the best reason to play red IMO. Ideally I would play 5 colors, splashing white for Baneslayer Angel, red for Cunning Sparkmage, and blue for Deceiver Exarch. But that's in a perfect world..
Totally depends on your focus. I initially made cuts to Viridian Emissary in the two-drop spot to make room for Perilous Myr due to the Glissa/Spellskite synergy and because of Spellskite's value as an early blocker. I still have the option of chaining from Sylvan Ranger to Pilgrim's Eye for those games where I'm able to pod for value and mana growth instead of trying to control the board against aggro.
Just curious, how well is your list playing against aggro? I was running something similar and having problems keeping pod-fodder alive against aggressive decks like Goblins.
PM and Mortarpod: I agree that they serve different purposes, and I definitely love the synergy between Glissa and Perilous Myr.. But I fail to see any synergy between PM and Spellskite, please explain? And even though Glissa and the Myr look great together, adding a third card in to make that combo more efficient just doesn't seem worth it to me. Perilous Myr is great on his own. Mortarpod is far more situational and, although it can be cute with certain cards we're running, it just looks like jank to me. It's also counter-productive to pod.
Aggro: I honestly haven't tested that much agaisnt aggro. Most people I play against use caw, valakut, or some control variant. The only aggro I've played against is vampires (good match-up, but usually win) and Tempered Steel (hard match-up, but usually still win with sideboard). Caw is honestly my worst match-up. I played against a friend piloting caw and we played (with sideboard) like 5 or 6 games in a row and he beat me every time. Reflecting on this..I have decided to revise my list. My sideboard is still sketchy, so if anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them.
I've made some modifications to help game 1 against Caw and Tezzeret, while the sideboard (hopefully) still keeps me well prepared for Tempered Steel, Valakut, and other misc aggro/fast decks. One thing I'm unsure on is maybe using 4x Surgical Extraction instead of Despise.. I'll test over the next couple of nights and report back.
It is very good against Twin decks or Ascension as well. You can rip any key card out of their deck for 0 mana.
The memoricide can do this also. And be proactive about it too not needing to wait until the key card is in the graveyard. But it costs a lot more mana and is not instant speed.
Also, Memoricide cannot get ANY land cards, whereas Surgical Extraction can make quick work of a Valakut in the graveyard. And between Tectonic Edge, Slimes, and Beast Within..it should be very easy for us to get one into their graveyard.
I originally ran Alchemy but every time I casted it I was always hoping for a counter, so instead I just replaced them with more counters. Dissipation Field is more useful here because it continually slows down opposing creatures, whereas DOJ only clears the field once. Also I have a couple DOJ in here already..
The only reason I don't use the O-Ring is because of the manabase. I like Beast Within better anyway..as the 3/3 is rarely a problem. And the fact that it can hit lands is very important as well, since this deck has some amazing LD potential with the addition of Unburial Rites
The Revoker may be coming out for another Spellskite, but currently I always find something useful for the Revoker. I only side it out against control deck with no swords and no planeswalkers. I take the LD/mana denial route often with this build, and I'll even drop the Revoker naming BOP if they play one
I guess the main reason I want the bounce is because its reusable, and the fact that you aren't required to have the spell in your hand + mana open when they cast the creature. Both Grasp of Phantoms and Silent Departure have flashback, and I can even return them with Runic Repetition later. Although I'll probably use Visions of Beyond instead of Think Twice..yeah definitely.
The only reason I would add blue is for Phantasmal Image, and don't get me wrong..I've thought about adding one island just for him. I wouldn't use anything like Ponder or Preordain.. IMHO they're a waste of space in this deck.
The only reason I would add white is for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite; and she costs 2 white..so that's not very viable. None of the other things offered by white seem worth it to me, except maybe Baneslayer Angel, but again..she costs 2 white.
The reason(s) why I won't remove black are (mainly):
Go for the Throat
Entomber Exarch
Massacre Wurm
I also really like Sheoldred, Whispering One but obviously Elesh Norn would be the better choice, if I decided to add white.
Maybe try something like this for your mana base:
4 Glacial Fortress (only 1-2$ ea)
4 Sunpetal Grove (less than 1$ ea)
1 Island
5 Plains
8 Forest
1 Buried Ruin
You have 6 outlets to keep the Fortress from coming into play tapped, and 13 outlets for the Grove. I've been thinking of converting from B/G to Bant and this is how I would do it.. Budget isn't really a concern for me, I just feel this is a really solid land-base for bant pod. The ratios reflect the ratios of the colors in your pretty well, and if you ever don't have BOP in your opponening hand, drop a CIP-tapped land first.
The only non-creature spells in my deck are 4 pod, 4 Beast Within, and 2 Mimic Vat (alongside 27 creature spells). The point of Vat is not to remove their creatures (although it can come in handy) but that it forces them to be more decisive about what they let hit your graveyard.
Every time I discuss Vat with a non-believer they always have the same sort of opinion; that it requires too much activity in order to be useful. The reality of standard (and MTG in general, really) is that not every game is going to be won or lost by turn 6. Often the only way to beat an aggressive deck with pod is to struggle to stay alive, dragging the game out to turn 20 or so, or until they have no steam left. Vat is not necessarily a card you want in your opening hand, but I only have 2 in the deck. Not likely to draw it opening hand, but even if I did, there's nothing wrong with holding on to the Vat from the start till turn 5 or 6 when I have a threat down. When you have a Vat on the table, even creatures like Viridian Emissary, Sylvan Ranger, or Pilgrim's Eye can be threatening since they thin the land out of your deck, and block all day if you're waiting for an answer.
And as far as "requiring interaction from your opponent" is concerned..why is that a bad thing? If my opponent chooses not to attack with his 3/3 because I have an Emissary and a Vat on the table, then isn't the Vat effectively preventing attacks? Or how about if I'm laying the beats with a Obstinate Baloth, Vat on the table, and my opponent holds back his Go for the Throat because he doesn't want a Baloth on my Vat.. Then isn't the Vat effectively protecting my Baloth and ensuring the beats?
The only explanation I can come up with for you people is to try it. If you don't like it, don't use it. Oh and I wouldn't use it in any build other than B/G. There are far too many options in the the other colors (namely blue and white) to warrant running this card. But in B/G it really shines..
4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Sea Gate Oracle
2 Spellskite
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan
1 Inferno Titan
Sorceries:
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
Enchantments:
4 Splinter Twin
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
3 Dispel
4 Lightning Bolt
Lands:
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Halimar Depths
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
8 Island
7 Mountain
4 Pyroclasm
3 Combust
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flashfreeze
2 Steel Sabotage
Couldn't agree more. I did some play-testing last night and let me just say Mimic Vat was my MVP for the night. It completely saved me against a Valakut and a RDW.
When you drop Vat while you already have some decent threats on the board, it forces them to play around it. Almost every single creature we pod players use instantly becomes more of a threat when imprinted on a Vat.
I'd love to see your list (if you don't mind sharing, that is). I'm really trying to splash a color in my B/G build and I can't decide between blue or white. White obviously gets Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite but blue has some very tempting options as well (Deceiver Exarch!!). So I'd love to see how you put it together, and how your match-ups work out. I know you just gave us a short run-down but I'm more interested in your bad match-ups. My rock pod usually smears through RDW and although Tempered Steel is always gonna be tough..Cawblade is actually the deck I've had the least success against.
You're right, I didn't catch that. Although I'm still of the opinion that he's worth a maindeck slot.
I actually keep 1 in my maindeck, and I rarely side him out. So many planeswalkers and equipment around right now..he's so good! Also stops battlements (or other mana makers), steel overseer, and even manlands.
Whats your sideboard like? I'm currently running 3x Memoricide and 4x Despise, along with more toolbox creatures.. I'm not sure if I should drop Despise and go with Surgical Extraction.
Yeah Entomber definitely helps but no one uses Lilly's Spectre.
Memoricide, Extraction, Duress..these are the black tech against twin
Got it. That makes more sense =)
I guess overall I couldn't disagree with using it. You make a valid point, so if its working for you then go for it. My list is just so tight that I couldn't imagine removing something to make room for it. This might be because I'm mainboarding Mimic Vats.. but let me know how the Mortarpods work out for you.
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Wall of Omens
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Skinrender
3 Acidic Slime
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Grave Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Instants (4):
3 Beast Within
1 Go for the Throat
Artifacts (4):
4 Birthing Pod
Lands (23):
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Buried Ruin
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Razorverge Thicket
6 Forest
6 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Memoricide
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Creeping Corrosion
3 Go for the Throat
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Blade Splicer
1 Obstinate Baloth
I haven't had as much of a problem with their birds and swords as I have with their Gideons destroying my pod fodder and their insane card advantage created by Consecrated Sphinx.
Don't get me wrong though, I love the Sparkmage. He's the best reason to play red IMO. Ideally I would play 5 colors, splashing white for Baneslayer Angel, red for Cunning Sparkmage, and blue for Deceiver Exarch. But that's in a perfect world..
PM and Mortarpod: I agree that they serve different purposes, and I definitely love the synergy between Glissa and Perilous Myr.. But I fail to see any synergy between PM and Spellskite, please explain? And even though Glissa and the Myr look great together, adding a third card in to make that combo more efficient just doesn't seem worth it to me. Perilous Myr is great on his own. Mortarpod is far more situational and, although it can be cute with certain cards we're running, it just looks like jank to me. It's also counter-productive to pod.
Aggro: I honestly haven't tested that much agaisnt aggro. Most people I play against use caw, valakut, or some control variant. The only aggro I've played against is vampires (good match-up, but usually win) and Tempered Steel (hard match-up, but usually still win with sideboard). Caw is honestly my worst match-up. I played against a friend piloting caw and we played (with sideboard) like 5 or 6 games in a row and he beat me every time. Reflecting on this..I have decided to revise my list. My sideboard is still sketchy, so if anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Viridian Emissary
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Perilous Myr
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Glissa, The Traitor
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Artifacts:
4 Birthing Pod
2 Mimic Vat
Instants:
4 Beast Within
Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tectonic Edge
8 Swamp
9 Forest
4 Despise
3 Memoricide
3 Go for the Throat
2 Sylvok Replica
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Stingerfling Spider
I've made some modifications to help game 1 against Caw and Tezzeret, while the sideboard (hopefully) still keeps me well prepared for Tempered Steel, Valakut, and other misc aggro/fast decks. One thing I'm unsure on is maybe using 4x Surgical Extraction instead of Despise.. I'll test over the next couple of nights and report back.
Also, Memoricide cannot get ANY land cards, whereas Surgical Extraction can make quick work of a Valakut in the graveyard. And between Tectonic Edge, Slimes, and Beast Within..it should be very easy for us to get one into their graveyard.