Although I don't plan on playing pod competitively anymore, this is the list I've been screwing around with lately and I actually like it more than most of the 3-color builds I've tested.
Yeah, looking at the results that Mike Flores has reported on, to my deck, I just may do:
-3 Sphere of the Suns
-1 Rampant Growth
+4 Viridian Emissary
And then maybe tinker with replacing a Solemn Simulacrum and/or an Acidic Slime with more Batterskulls.
You could probably go down to 3 Solemn for one extra Batterskull. Personally, I've loved the skull in testing. I traded my Wurmcoil Engine slot for it.
Do you mind linking me to the article where Flores discussed such things?
With how popular red aggro is going to be, I would probably play 4 Emissaries, and 3 Rampant Growth.. but that's just my suggestion (I'm not using Rampant at all in my build actually)
The thing is, Emissary isn't only good for shunting early aggro. If you drop it turn 2, he's going to start beating face against control. Often they will let him get 3-5 swings in before they kill him, because they don't want to ramp for you. But think about how much extra damage that is.. How much closer that's actually gotten you to finishing the game.
I think Viridian Emissary is a fantastic card for any midrange deck. He's an early blocker against aggro (red, humans, etc) that ramps you into bigger spells when he dies. And he's an early threat against control that they almost never want to kill (at least not right away). If your build relies on early ramp then I would also run 3 Rampant Growth. This way you have some ramp to play on turn 2 if you didn't draw an Emissary.
Yeah, I realized after I posted that HS made GTitan suck. I didn't think about the tokens being 1/1s lol. You're right about Acidic Slime. Why do you think HS is a terrible card?
The card has great potential for casual play, but let me explain the fundamental problem.
Heartless Summoning makes your creatures cost considerably less mana, but slightly weakens.. Sounds great! Let's build a deck around that. In order to do that, we need creatures that would be much more effective if they cost 2 less and had -1/-1. But the problem is that filling your deck with creatures like just sets you up for failure, since you will be way over on your curve, until you draw Summoning. And even when you do draw it.. making your creatures cost 2 less for -1/-1 is not nearly as useful as it seems. It only effects you positively at the time you need to cast the creature, and for every other instance in the game it effects you (quite) negatively. Obviously there are nuts draws to be had, such as: turn 1 - something, turn 2 - summoning, turn 3 - demon, turn 4 - play 2 solemns.. but it is very unlikely that you'll be able to utilize the card to attain any serious success. Just making creatures cheaper isn't going to win you the game (especially since those creatures are now weaker, and much more vulnerable to removal). If you look at my recent post in the Heartless variants thread, I created a deck that is built like U/B control, but also uses 3 copies of HS. The reason being so you can play your creatures for cheaper, and still have mana open to counter/bounce/etc. Playing a Rock/MBC style deck with heartless summoning is just asking to lose games.
If you could somehow guarantee you'd land a turn 2 HS every game, then by all means I would build a deck around it. I love the flavor of the card, but it's practical applications are near non-existent. The only creatures that I really feel it synergizes with are Solemn Simulacrum and Acidic Slime, because they have amazingly important ETB/LTB effects, and you don't mind them dying. For everything else I truly feel it's worth it to pay the extra mana for the extra P/T. If HS is going to be broken, it's going to be in a deck with counters/bounce/draw spells, or at the very least something to do with that extra mana other than play more creatures.
The issue is not having no HS with creatures, it's having no creatures with HS. Summoning only does stuff when you have creatures to play, creatures will always do something, regardless of HS.
But having creatures (expensive ones) with no HS is much much worse than having HS, no creatures (yet), and a handful of control-ish cards.
I really don't like Altar's Reap honestly. If they kill your guy, they kill your guy. So be it. You don't need to try and get them with reap. I also don't like Despise, like you originally posted. Grave Titan is even better when it only costs 4 mana. Also, I would still play the demon. The only difference between 4 toughness and 3 is that Incinerate kills it. Again, if they have it they have it. Cutting the reaps for the demon is just better imo. Turn 3 demon seems really good. Also, Arc Trail is too much value with mono red and tsteel being so prevalent nowadays.
From this list I would do:
-3 Altar's Reap
-1 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Acidic Slime
-3 Despise
-1 Go for the Throat
-1 Red Sun's Zenith
-1 Solemn Simulacrum
Also, I would cut a swamp for a mountain I think. It'll be hard to cast turn 4 Inferno Titan with only one mountain.
I like one Doom Blade for the options I guess. Ancient Grudge is too good to cut imo. Also, Solemn isn't as necessary when everything costs 2 less. Idk. This is where I would start though. Thoughts?
Altar's Reap is not to "protect" your creatures from removal. It's to use in conjunction with Solemn and Emissary to create insane card advantage, preferably after they block something (maybe even preventing bloodthirst or Stromkirk Noble counters). Now if you happen to have it at the right moment to make your opponent waste a removal spell, that's nice too..but it's not why the card is in the deck.
Grave Titan is by far the least synergistic with Heartless Summoning (compared to the other titans). You realize the tokens are 1/1s right?? I would never playe Grave Titan in a HS deck.. It just doesn't make sense. Which brings me to my next point: Acidic Slime might possibly be one the most synergistic creatures with Heartless Summoning. It has deathtouch already, so it's going to kill anything in combat anyway, and I dunno about you but a 3-cost creeping mold sounds pretty sweet to me. If you'd rather use Bloodgift Demon than Altar's Reap that's your decision, but whatever you do don't take out any Slimes..
I didn't cut Ancient Grudge, I just kept it in the sideboard. And this is moot anyway, because this isn't my build we're talking about. This was something I threw together in about 4 seconds when you asked about Heartless Summoning. In my honest opinion HS is a terrible card that will never see competitive play. If any deck running any number of HS ever makes it to a top 8 I will be extremely surprised.
yeah i hear turn 1 bird, turn 2 summonings turn 3 titan is good.
I heard summoning kills birds, but I wouldn't play birds in this deck anyway
Summoning is definitely a card I would love to incorporate, but I just don't have room. The biggest problem would be it making your Bloodgift Demon even more vulnerable (the difference between 3 and 4 toughness is quite relevant)
I'd love for someone to try it out and report back with results, but I personally like my build a lot the way it is (I'm still tweaking the sideboard though)..
Funeral: While I understand not trying to play too much stuff that requires pod or summoning, doesn't ten creatures seem really light? I mean, you're running 3 heartless summoning just for 10 total critters.
My deck isn't a Heartless Summoning deck, per say.. It's a U/B control deck that uses Heartless to drop threats for cheaper and still have mana to counter. Although one could argue that I could replace the 3x Heartless with 3x Snapcaster Mage to create an infinitely better deck.. But I like the idea behind Heartless Summoning.
Would you say that 20 creatures with 4 HS is better? To me it seems like having 10 creatures with 3 HS is actually a better ratio.. Ask yourself: Who is going to be stuck casting creatures for full cost more often? My build? Or others? Who is going to be able to protect their (extra fragile) threats better? My build? Or others?
Just like any Birthing Pod deck, it's extremely important that you build your deck around not having the key-card, but when you do get you're just going to blow the game up.
I'm curious why run RSZ over Devil's play when we're a ramp deck? Red is our center wedge color, so RRR is actually surprisingly easy. (up to 16 red-producing duals, plus land fetch). There's actually pretty few dudes that it matters to exile.
The only reason I use RSZ is because of the exile effect. And by build is black centered, with some green added..but red is certainly my least prevalent color. So realistically by the time I get RRR and enough mana to make a Devil's Play flashback worth my while, it's likely that I will have drawn another RSZ already. So I'll continue RSZ but I think any build running more red should definitely go with Devil's.
Bloodgift is interesting, since it's the best card advantage engine available to Jund. I'm not sure that he's what I want with how I set my list up, but I'll have to check him out.
Bloodgift Demon is your baby, your treasure.. cherish it, protect it.. It's mainly because of the Demon that I'm going to add Autumn's Veil in my sideboard. The demon card inflict so much damage and create so much card advantage in just a few turns. Which makes is very worth it protect him. Of all the differences between our builds, I think Demon is the main thing I'd recommend you to try.
I need to test it more, but I think that the manabase can support ramping our titan into inkmoth nexus + kessig, instead of just kessig+(normal land). Reason: It gives us a relevant blocker if we try to race, and absolutely forces removal from them. Stessia land might also be ok, since it hits planeswalkers. It's too slow to matter against most of them tho'.
I've been thinking about this idea a lot lately too.. I really think I could probably afford to squeeze in one Primeval Titan and one Inkmoth Nexus (since I'm already running the Wolf Run) just to seal the wins in those long long games. I wouldn't use Stessia though.. It's just too slow, and we're in 3 colors so each colorless land hurts quite a bit.
I like solemn, but he's a bit of a liability against decks that can go big in the air at early turns (tempered steel, destiny-geist, illusion aggro; lesser degree u/w aggro and RDW's phoenixes.
There aren't that many relevant flyers in standard. There are a few of course.. but Destiny-Geist is going to be hard to deal with for any deck in the format right now, so don't blame Solemn Simulacrum. He's in there mainly to buy me time against red and humans, and to create insane card advantage with Altar's Reap. AR is the number one card that I wish I could run more of in the deck but just can't find room for. Blocking with an Emissary/Solemn and then Reaping is just so game-breaking. You slowed down/haulted an attack, and just ramped/drew extra cards.
Skinshifter is also pretty amazing - as is mayor - but both of them suffer from splash damage due to being X/1's, which we probably want to avoid.
I agree, I don't think we want very many 1-toughness creatures here. I dunno about others, but I'll be using Black Sun and my primary sweeper, and I love that I can make it really one-sided, if I have a Demon/Titan/Troll on the table.
hmm I also did notice we had a thread already..
I'll copy my OP from my thread here.
Any mods that want to delete/lock my thread can go ahead
Red Rock - Jund Control
The Goal: With the first set of major tournament results now available, it's time to start brewing the meta-hate deck of the season. Obviously the deck will evolve and change drastically as more information regarding top/popular/competitive decks becomes available. At the moment it appears Red, Black and Green give us all the appropriate cards to hate on what are looking to be the big decks-to-beat (so far).
Currently Hating: -Tempered Steel
-W/x Aggro variants
-R/x Aggro variants
-U/x Blade variants
-Solar Flare
-Birthing Pod
Card Composition: I'll give a general outline of some important cards to consider for meta-hating in the current standard. Again I'll stress that this information as well as this post will change as needed, as the meta evolves. None of this information is set in stone. These analyses are speculations based on what we know is currently viable. I'll list cards by color, and further separate them into answers and threats. Please help grow this archetype by suggesting any cards that you feel deserve consideration.
-Red
Arc Trail - An absolutely fantastic card. On onslaught of low-toughness has never been hosed so easily. Easily a staple for any meta-hate-oriented deck in this current standard. Gutshot and Geistflame are possible substitutes. Red Sun's Zenith - This card was one of my main inspirations for putting together this deck (hence the image above). Exile a creature or burn out your opponents last bit of life for the win. With the release of Innistrad, the exile effect becomes infinitely more important. Wurmcoil Engine? Viridian Emissary? Solemn Simulacrum? Doomed Traveler? even Unburial Rites? Not a problem.. Exile the creature with RSZ. The practical applications of the card know no bounds. Slagstorm - With no notable creatures packing pro red at the moment (excl. Vulshok Refugee), this spell can potentially hose white aggro. The RR casting cost might make it difficult though, since we're in 3 colors here. If your build is centered around red, this card is mandatory, at least in your sideboard. Blasphemous Act - The red Day of Judgment. Rarely will you ever find this spell costing too much mana. The single R casting cost makes this much more viable than Slagstorm.. Couple that with the fact that it also kills titans and Drungrove Elders, and you've got yourself a meta-hate champion. At the very least, this card will warrant some spots in your sideboard against G/W tokens. Manic Vandal - Shatter on a stick is great in this format, though we'll probably be running board sweepers, and there's better artifact removal available. Ancient Grudge - Remember that better artifact removal I was talking about? This is it. You want anywhere from 2-4 of these somewhere in your 75. Maindeck artifact hate hasn't been this good of an idea since the old Mirrodon standard. Chandra, the Firebrand - I'm listing Chandra under hate rather than threat, but in reality she is very much of both. Ping stuff out all day long, copy another hate spell if you need to, or even randomly sweep the board and win the game. Chandra is probably the most viable planeswalker for this deck, but not the only one.
Inferno Titan - This should be a no-brainer. The IT hoses creatures and gets damage through faster than any other titan, no question about it. He's what I call "maindatory".. Falkenwrath Marauders - Flying and haste are no laughing matter, but this guy is extremely fragile. Still a viable card, as it can win the game for you extremely quick if it goes unanswered, but definitely something you want to side out against red. Balefire Dragon - Something to keep on our consideration belt, but not something we need to run just yet. It's pretty costly and the effect is slow. For a mythic rare, I'm honestly a little dissapointed. Hero of Oxid Ridge - Normally considered a great finisher for any red deck, in here he is probably too fragile. His effect is respectable, but 2 toughness is extremely low and ideally there won't be any weenies left on the board by the time you're ready to win the game anyway. Still, I couldn't argue with using the card.
-Green
Viridian Emissary - In reality he's more of a threat than he is hate, but there are too many 2-toughness attackers lurking around right now so the Emissary is hate in my book. A blocker that gets you a land when it dies? Obviously good. And wait, don't side it out against control! A 2-power beater that your opponent doesn't want to die? Sign me up! Beast Within - Anyone that's ever needed a permanent destroyed probably would like it done at instant speed and wouldn't mind a 3/3 in it's place. Probably a sideboard card, as it's most useful against planeswalkers..but it definitely warrants consideration even for the maindeck. Ambush Viper - This is one of my favorite cards from Innistrad, but I'm sad to say I actually couldn't find room for it in my own build. It still deserves mention here though, since green 2-casting-cost instant-speed removal is usually hard to come by, and very relevant in the current meta. Acidic Slime - This was my second-most inspiring card to create this deck. Easily one of the best green creatures ever printed. Can potentially kill anything but a planeswalker. It almost always creates a 2-for-1 (shoot something, then blocked/blocks to kill a creature). If you've been paying attention, this is definitely another of my "maindatory" cards. You probably want at least 3 somewhere in your 75. Thrun, the Last Troll - We have yet another card that is definitely both a threat and hate. I list him under hate because people hate that he can't be countered, they hate that he can't be targeted, and they have that he can be regenerated. This guy is our main weapon against heavy-counter control. Tree of Redemption - Probably most viable against humans/variants.. this is a sideboard card at best. If you're looking for a good lifegain option, look no further. It's not the greatest, but it's all we have when playing these colors. Naturalize - Another no-brainer. Artifacts and enchantments are running rampant this season, and you need to put them in their place. Garruk Relentless - Make tokens all day long, take out a small creature, or even tutor up your Slime or a Titan (or whatever you need).. This is probably the second best planeswalker available, and in my opinion the only other viable one. In case you skipped red, the other one is Chandra, the Firebrand.
Primeval Titan - Can be used to combo with Kessig Wolf Run (and Inkmoth Nexus if you wanna get crazy) to win the game out of nowhere. Though he's more of an aggressive card than a controlling one, I personally don't use him in my build, but I don't condemn him. He probably warrants a 1-of slot for those games that are just taking way too long. Chancellor of the Tangle - I don't know.. Honestly I couldn't think of any other notable green finishers. Any recommendations are welcome!
-Black
Despise - Originally I had the double-D-combo but I recently decided to remove Despise, as it just isn't as useful. It's nice that it can hit planeswalkers but people usually don't run many walkers so the chances of them having one in hand when you cast this are slim. I couldn't disagree with using it, I just personally found it to be wasting precious space. Distress - An over-costed Thoughtseize, but it's the best we've got right now. And if you've been following along, this is the third card most relevant to the spawning of this deck in my brain. Control (and I mean control, not cawblade) is coming back in a big way, and this card is going to help us take them down. Liliana of the Veil - I think Lili deserves some mention here, but she's probably not a realistic option for this kind of deck. She belongs in a deck that can take advantage of the cards she'll put in your graveyard. Nine times out of ten you'd just use her as an edict and she probably won't live long afte that. Altar's Reap - This is going in my hate section because its a way for us to counter removal. We might still lose the creature in the process, but we lose it on our terms. It doesn't get exiled (if it would've) and with some of our creatures (Wurmcoil, Solemn, Emissary) we actually benefit from the creature dying already, plus we draw the 2 extra cards. This is a great way to get back in the game if your opponent tries to remove your finisher. Black Sun's Zenith - It's not Damnation, but in some ways it's almost better. You can keep your fatties alive while hosing the weenies off the board. It can also be coupled with combat damage to drop your opponent's creature(s) when they don't even see it coming. I personally use this as my maindeck sweeper, and keep the others in the sideboard. Go for the Throat / Doom Blade - probably a personally preference, but it seems that Go is strictly better except against Tempered Steel, and we should have enough other ways of dealing with them anyway. Go can hit Grave Titan and Sheoldred, while Doom can hit Wurmcoil and Solemn? No thanks. Memoricide - A reprinted Cranial Extraction. The card has obvious potential, mainly against Solar Flare. I've recently changed my sideboard to include Surgical Extraction instead, mainly because it's cheaper and harder to counter. Surigcal Extraction - This is one of our most powerful weapons against our worst match-up: Solar Flare Control, and other Snapcaster Mage variants. Removing a Mana Leak can potentially save you from up to 7 additional Mana Leaks throughout that game..not to mention if you can pop their Unburial Rites you should probably win the game. Nihil Spellbomb - Another great weapon against Solar Flare control. I wouldn't sleeve up without at least 3 of these in my sideboard. Severe the Bloodline - Against tokens this could be extremely relevant, although I think we have more versatile options agaisnt them. I would personally rather use it to exile a Wurmcoil Engine.
Bloodgift Demon - This is the guy who confided in Bob to make him the Dark Confidant. When he's not flying over for 5 or drawing you extra cards, he enjoys blocking Inkmoth Nexus and long walks on the beach. Card Advantage + Threat = Bigger Threat. Grave Titan - There's a reason why he sells for almost double what all the other titans go for. This guy is completely nuts. Another staple for us, since he's a finisher on his own, and creates lots of blockers to help against aggro. Sheoldred, Whispering One - Since we will generally have a low number of finishers in this deck, she may turn out to be a great option. I haven't tested her myself yet, mainly because I don't want my curve going up that high.. but I haven't ruled her out. Being able to revive a fallen titan or Wurmcoil could be huge. If you're running more ramp or Heartless Summoning, I would recommend trying a singleton Sheoldred.
-Artifacts/General Card Advantage/Ramp
Sphere of the Suns - Since we're playing 3 colors, this card is extremely viable. If you run this and a couple planeswalkers, it might be worth your while to go big-red style and use Volt Charge. Ratchet Bomb - An amazing board sweeper, especially since we don't have many low-cost permanents we'd lose to it anyway. Great for taking out tokens and Invisible Stalker. Solemn Simulacrum - Jund control will generally operate a little slower, and it's running 3 different colors. Solemn Simulacrum is maindatory material, especially if you're running board sweepers and Altar's Reap (which you should be). Rampant Growth - If you love that ramp, then go for it. If you're going the Kessig Wolf Run / Primeval Titan route I would say this card is probably a definite 3-of, if not 4. Birds of Paradise - We're not really trying to be fast or explosive here. They die to your sweepers, they're just begging to be removed. Save your BOPs for another deck. Spellskite - If you're running a creature-heavy build then I could definitely recommend using this. Personally I think this guy belongs in Birthing Pod and Tempered Steel, not here. Tumble Magnet - I would say it's sideboard at best, and only if you're doing the proliferate thing. Could be a house against Phantasmal Image though.. Inkmoth Nexus - I personally don't think there's any reason to run this card in this sort of deck, even if you're win-goal is Primeval Titan and Kessig Wolf Run. We're playing 3 colors here, we don't need to run more colorless lands than we absolutely have to. Wurmcoil Engine - Another no-brainer. An excellent finisher that practically wants to be destroyed. There are ways of exiling it, which can be annoying.. but the lifegain aspect can be game-changing. Batterskull - Same basic idea as the Wurmcoil Engine, although it can be potentially harder to get rid of, if you play your cards right (no pun intended). I would run a singleton at most, but recently I've switched mine to a Wurmcoil without any increase in success honestly.
Deck Lists:
For now I'll list the two variations I've been brewing, but I welcome and encourage others to toy around with this idea and report back with results. If anyone is having reasonable success, please let the thread know! And I'll be happy to include your build here in the OP.
The only deck I've had any problems with has been Solar Flare. And I've been changing up the sideboard pretty often to try and help with that. I haven't had a chance to test against them since I added the 3x Nihil Spellbomb.
But basically the deck hoses aggro and most Blade variants. The recurring bodies of Solar Flare just give me trouble..
I originally ran Alchemy but every time I casted it I was always hoping for a counter, so instead I just replaced them with more counters. Dissipation Field is more useful here because it continually slows down opposing creatures, whereas DOJ only clears the field once. Also I have a couple DOJ in here already..
The only reason I don't use the O-Ring is because of the manabase. I like Beast Within better anyway..as the 3/3 is rarely a problem. And the fact that it can hit lands is very important as well, since this deck has some amazing LD potential with the addition of Unburial Rites
The Revoker may be coming out for another Spellskite, but currently I always find something useful for the Revoker. I only side it out against control deck with no swords and no planeswalkers. I take the LD/mana denial route often with this build, and I'll even drop the Revoker naming BOP if they play one
I guess the main reason I want the bounce is because its reusable, and the fact that you aren't required to have the spell in your hand + mana open when they cast the creature. Both Grasp of Phantoms and Silent Departure have flashback, and I can even return them with Runic Repetition later. Although I'll probably use Visions of Beyond instead of Think Twice..yeah definitely.
Also, what are the main weaknesses of G/W tokens? It looks to be a pretty formidable opponent for any of the top decks right now..
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Mentor of the Meek
3 Hero of Bladehold
Artifacts:
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
Instants:
4 Midnight Haunting
2 Beast Within
Enchantments:
4 Intagible Virtue
3 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalkers
3 Elspeth Tirel
2 Gideon Jura
3 Day of Judgment
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Overrun
Lands:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Gavony Township
8 Plains
3 Forest
4 Naturalize
4 Purify the Grave
4 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
-EDIT-
Autumn's Veil and Surgical Extraction are amazing against SF
4 Viridian Emissary
3 Spellskite
3 Perilous Myr
3 Blade Splicer
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Master Splicer
2 Acidic Slime
1 Archon of Justice
1 Razor Hippogriff
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Artifacts:
4 Birthing Pod
Instants:
2 Beast Within
Enchantments:
3 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalkers:
1 Gideon Jura
Lands:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
1 Gavony Township
1 Buried Ruin
7 Forest
6 Plains
4 Naturalize
3 Divine Reckoning
1 Beast Within
1 Gideon Jura
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Peace Strider
1 Acidic Slime
You could probably go down to 3 Solemn for one extra Batterskull. Personally, I've loved the skull in testing. I traded my Wurmcoil Engine slot for it.
Do you mind linking me to the article where Flores discussed such things?
The thing is, Emissary isn't only good for shunting early aggro. If you drop it turn 2, he's going to start beating face against control. Often they will let him get 3-5 swings in before they kill him, because they don't want to ramp for you. But think about how much extra damage that is.. How much closer that's actually gotten you to finishing the game.
I think Viridian Emissary is a fantastic card for any midrange deck. He's an early blocker against aggro (red, humans, etc) that ramps you into bigger spells when he dies. And he's an early threat against control that they almost never want to kill (at least not right away). If your build relies on early ramp then I would also run 3 Rampant Growth. This way you have some ramp to play on turn 2 if you didn't draw an Emissary.
Exactly!!
and that even thins a land out of your deck
The card has great potential for casual play, but let me explain the fundamental problem.
Heartless Summoning makes your creatures cost considerably less mana, but slightly weakens.. Sounds great! Let's build a deck around that. In order to do that, we need creatures that would be much more effective if they cost 2 less and had -1/-1. But the problem is that filling your deck with creatures like just sets you up for failure, since you will be way over on your curve, until you draw Summoning. And even when you do draw it.. making your creatures cost 2 less for -1/-1 is not nearly as useful as it seems. It only effects you positively at the time you need to cast the creature, and for every other instance in the game it effects you (quite) negatively. Obviously there are nuts draws to be had, such as: turn 1 - something, turn 2 - summoning, turn 3 - demon, turn 4 - play 2 solemns.. but it is very unlikely that you'll be able to utilize the card to attain any serious success. Just making creatures cheaper isn't going to win you the game (especially since those creatures are now weaker, and much more vulnerable to removal). If you look at my recent post in the Heartless variants thread, I created a deck that is built like U/B control, but also uses 3 copies of HS. The reason being so you can play your creatures for cheaper, and still have mana open to counter/bounce/etc. Playing a Rock/MBC style deck with heartless summoning is just asking to lose games.
If you could somehow guarantee you'd land a turn 2 HS every game, then by all means I would build a deck around it. I love the flavor of the card, but it's practical applications are near non-existent. The only creatures that I really feel it synergizes with are Solemn Simulacrum and Acidic Slime, because they have amazingly important ETB/LTB effects, and you don't mind them dying. For everything else I truly feel it's worth it to pay the extra mana for the extra P/T. If HS is going to be broken, it's going to be in a deck with counters/bounce/draw spells, or at the very least something to do with that extra mana other than play more creatures.
In a nutshell, Heartless Summoning wants to be Birthing Pod..but it never will be. It's just too janky
But having creatures (expensive ones) with no HS is much much worse than having HS, no creatures (yet), and a handful of control-ish cards.
Altar's Reap is not to "protect" your creatures from removal. It's to use in conjunction with Solemn and Emissary to create insane card advantage, preferably after they block something (maybe even preventing bloodthirst or Stromkirk Noble counters). Now if you happen to have it at the right moment to make your opponent waste a removal spell, that's nice too..but it's not why the card is in the deck.
Grave Titan is by far the least synergistic with Heartless Summoning (compared to the other titans). You realize the tokens are 1/1s right?? I would never playe Grave Titan in a HS deck.. It just doesn't make sense. Which brings me to my next point: Acidic Slime might possibly be one the most synergistic creatures with Heartless Summoning. It has deathtouch already, so it's going to kill anything in combat anyway, and I dunno about you but a 3-cost creeping mold sounds pretty sweet to me. If you'd rather use Bloodgift Demon than Altar's Reap that's your decision, but whatever you do don't take out any Slimes..
I didn't cut Ancient Grudge, I just kept it in the sideboard. And this is moot anyway, because this isn't my build we're talking about. This was something I threw together in about 4 seconds when you asked about Heartless Summoning. In my honest opinion HS is a terrible card that will never see competitive play. If any deck running any number of HS ever makes it to a top 8 I will be extremely surprised.
I heard summoning kills birds, but I wouldn't play birds in this deck anyway
Summoning is definitely a card I would love to incorporate, but I just don't have room. The biggest problem would be it making your Bloodgift Demon even more vulnerable (the difference between 3 and 4 toughness is quite relevant)
I'd love for someone to try it out and report back with results, but I personally like my build a lot the way it is (I'm still tweaking the sideboard though)..
Maybe you could do something like this:
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Acidic Slime
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Inferno Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Enchantments:
3 Heartless Summoning
Instants:
4 Go for the Throat
3 Altar's Reap
4 Distress
3 Despise
3 Red Sun's Zenith
Lands:
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Kessig Wolf Run
6 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Naturalize
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Autumn's Veil
3 Slagstorm
My deck isn't a Heartless Summoning deck, per say.. It's a U/B control deck that uses Heartless to drop threats for cheaper and still have mana to counter. Although one could argue that I could replace the 3x Heartless with 3x Snapcaster Mage to create an infinitely better deck.. But I like the idea behind Heartless Summoning.
Would you say that 20 creatures with 4 HS is better? To me it seems like having 10 creatures with 3 HS is actually a better ratio.. Ask yourself: Who is going to be stuck casting creatures for full cost more often? My build? Or others? Who is going to be able to protect their (extra fragile) threats better? My build? Or others?
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Artifacts:
3 Ratchet Bomb
Enchantments:
3 Heartless Summoning
4 Go for the Throat
4 Mana Leak
3 Negate
Sorceries:
4 Ponder
3 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Unburial Rites
Lands:
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Buried Ruin
5 Island
5 Swamp
1 Plains
Just like any Birthing Pod deck, it's extremely important that you build your deck around not having the key-card, but when you do get you're just going to blow the game up.
The only reason I use RSZ is because of the exile effect. And by build is black centered, with some green added..but red is certainly my least prevalent color. So realistically by the time I get RRR and enough mana to make a Devil's Play flashback worth my while, it's likely that I will have drawn another RSZ already. So I'll continue RSZ but I think any build running more red should definitely go with Devil's.
Bloodgift Demon is your baby, your treasure.. cherish it, protect it.. It's mainly because of the Demon that I'm going to add Autumn's Veil in my sideboard. The demon card inflict so much damage and create so much card advantage in just a few turns. Which makes is very worth it protect him. Of all the differences between our builds, I think Demon is the main thing I'd recommend you to try.
I've been thinking about this idea a lot lately too.. I really think I could probably afford to squeeze in one Primeval Titan and one Inkmoth Nexus (since I'm already running the Wolf Run) just to seal the wins in those long long games. I wouldn't use Stessia though.. It's just too slow, and we're in 3 colors so each colorless land hurts quite a bit.
There aren't that many relevant flyers in standard. There are a few of course.. but Destiny-Geist is going to be hard to deal with for any deck in the format right now, so don't blame Solemn Simulacrum. He's in there mainly to buy me time against red and humans, and to create insane card advantage with Altar's Reap. AR is the number one card that I wish I could run more of in the deck but just can't find room for. Blocking with an Emissary/Solemn and then Reaping is just so game-breaking. You slowed down/haulted an attack, and just ramped/drew extra cards.
I agree, I don't think we want very many 1-toughness creatures here. I dunno about others, but I'll be using Black Sun and my primary sweeper, and I love that I can make it really one-sided, if I have a Demon/Titan/Troll on the table.
I'll copy my OP from my thread here.
Any mods that want to delete/lock my thread can go ahead
Currently Hating:
-Tempered Steel
-W/x Aggro variants
-R/x Aggro variants
-U/x Blade variants
-Solar Flare
-Birthing Pod
Card Composition: I'll give a general outline of some important cards to consider for meta-hating in the current standard. Again I'll stress that this information as well as this post will change as needed, as the meta evolves. None of this information is set in stone. These analyses are speculations based on what we know is currently viable. I'll list cards by color, and further separate them into answers and threats. Please help grow this archetype by suggesting any cards that you feel deserve consideration.
-Red
Arc Trail - An absolutely fantastic card. On onslaught of low-toughness has never been hosed so easily. Easily a staple for any meta-hate-oriented deck in this current standard. Gutshot and Geistflame are possible substitutes.
Red Sun's Zenith - This card was one of my main inspirations for putting together this deck (hence the image above). Exile a creature or burn out your opponents last bit of life for the win. With the release of Innistrad, the exile effect becomes infinitely more important. Wurmcoil Engine? Viridian Emissary? Solemn Simulacrum? Doomed Traveler? even Unburial Rites? Not a problem.. Exile the creature with RSZ. The practical applications of the card know no bounds.
Slagstorm - With no notable creatures packing pro red at the moment (excl. Vulshok Refugee), this spell can potentially hose white aggro. The RR casting cost might make it difficult though, since we're in 3 colors here. If your build is centered around red, this card is mandatory, at least in your sideboard.
Blasphemous Act - The red Day of Judgment. Rarely will you ever find this spell costing too much mana. The single R casting cost makes this much more viable than Slagstorm.. Couple that with the fact that it also kills titans and Drungrove Elders, and you've got yourself a meta-hate champion. At the very least, this card will warrant some spots in your sideboard against G/W tokens.
Manic Vandal - Shatter on a stick is great in this format, though we'll probably be running board sweepers, and there's better artifact removal available.
Ancient Grudge - Remember that better artifact removal I was talking about? This is it. You want anywhere from 2-4 of these somewhere in your 75. Maindeck artifact hate hasn't been this good of an idea since the old Mirrodon standard.
Chandra, the Firebrand - I'm listing Chandra under hate rather than threat, but in reality she is very much of both. Ping stuff out all day long, copy another hate spell if you need to, or even randomly sweep the board and win the game. Chandra is probably the most viable planeswalker for this deck, but not the only one.
Inferno Titan - This should be a no-brainer. The IT hoses creatures and gets damage through faster than any other titan, no question about it. He's what I call "maindatory"..
Falkenwrath Marauders - Flying and haste are no laughing matter, but this guy is extremely fragile. Still a viable card, as it can win the game for you extremely quick if it goes unanswered, but definitely something you want to side out against red.
Balefire Dragon - Something to keep on our consideration belt, but not something we need to run just yet. It's pretty costly and the effect is slow. For a mythic rare, I'm honestly a little dissapointed.
Hero of Oxid Ridge - Normally considered a great finisher for any red deck, in here he is probably too fragile. His effect is respectable, but 2 toughness is extremely low and ideally there won't be any weenies left on the board by the time you're ready to win the game anyway. Still, I couldn't argue with using the card.
Viridian Emissary - In reality he's more of a threat than he is hate, but there are too many 2-toughness attackers lurking around right now so the Emissary is hate in my book. A blocker that gets you a land when it dies? Obviously good. And wait, don't side it out against control! A 2-power beater that your opponent doesn't want to die? Sign me up!
Beast Within - Anyone that's ever needed a permanent destroyed probably would like it done at instant speed and wouldn't mind a 3/3 in it's place. Probably a sideboard card, as it's most useful against planeswalkers..but it definitely warrants consideration even for the maindeck.
Ambush Viper - This is one of my favorite cards from Innistrad, but I'm sad to say I actually couldn't find room for it in my own build. It still deserves mention here though, since green 2-casting-cost instant-speed removal is usually hard to come by, and very relevant in the current meta.
Acidic Slime - This was my second-most inspiring card to create this deck. Easily one of the best green creatures ever printed. Can potentially kill anything but a planeswalker. It almost always creates a 2-for-1 (shoot something, then blocked/blocks to kill a creature). If you've been paying attention, this is definitely another of my "maindatory" cards. You probably want at least 3 somewhere in your 75.
Thrun, the Last Troll - We have yet another card that is definitely both a threat and hate. I list him under hate because people hate that he can't be countered, they hate that he can't be targeted, and they have that he can be regenerated. This guy is our main weapon against heavy-counter control.
Tree of Redemption - Probably most viable against humans/variants.. this is a sideboard card at best. If you're looking for a good lifegain option, look no further. It's not the greatest, but it's all we have when playing these colors.
Naturalize - Another no-brainer. Artifacts and enchantments are running rampant this season, and you need to put them in their place.
Garruk Relentless - Make tokens all day long, take out a small creature, or even tutor up your Slime or a Titan (or whatever you need).. This is probably the second best planeswalker available, and in my opinion the only other viable one. In case you skipped red, the other one is Chandra, the Firebrand.
Primeval Titan - Can be used to combo with Kessig Wolf Run (and Inkmoth Nexus if you wanna get crazy) to win the game out of nowhere. Though he's more of an aggressive card than a controlling one, I personally don't use him in my build, but I don't condemn him. He probably warrants a 1-of slot for those games that are just taking way too long.
Chancellor of the Tangle - I don't know.. Honestly I couldn't think of any other notable green finishers. Any recommendations are welcome!
Despise - Originally I had the double-D-combo but I recently decided to remove Despise, as it just isn't as useful. It's nice that it can hit planeswalkers but people usually don't run many walkers so the chances of them having one in hand when you cast this are slim. I couldn't disagree with using it, I just personally found it to be wasting precious space.
Distress - An over-costed Thoughtseize, but it's the best we've got right now. And if you've been following along, this is the third card most relevant to the spawning of this deck in my brain. Control (and I mean control, not cawblade) is coming back in a big way, and this card is going to help us take them down.
Liliana of the Veil - I think Lili deserves some mention here, but she's probably not a realistic option for this kind of deck. She belongs in a deck that can take advantage of the cards she'll put in your graveyard. Nine times out of ten you'd just use her as an edict and she probably won't live long afte that.
Altar's Reap - This is going in my hate section because its a way for us to counter removal. We might still lose the creature in the process, but we lose it on our terms. It doesn't get exiled (if it would've) and with some of our creatures (Wurmcoil, Solemn, Emissary) we actually benefit from the creature dying already, plus we draw the 2 extra cards. This is a great way to get back in the game if your opponent tries to remove your finisher.
Black Sun's Zenith - It's not Damnation, but in some ways it's almost better. You can keep your fatties alive while hosing the weenies off the board. It can also be coupled with combat damage to drop your opponent's creature(s) when they don't even see it coming. I personally use this as my maindeck sweeper, and keep the others in the sideboard.
Go for the Throat / Doom Blade - probably a personally preference, but it seems that Go is strictly better except against Tempered Steel, and we should have enough other ways of dealing with them anyway. Go can hit Grave Titan and Sheoldred, while Doom can hit Wurmcoil and Solemn? No thanks.
Memoricide - A reprinted Cranial Extraction. The card has obvious potential, mainly against Solar Flare. I've recently changed my sideboard to include Surgical Extraction instead, mainly because it's cheaper and harder to counter.
Surigcal Extraction - This is one of our most powerful weapons against our worst match-up: Solar Flare Control, and other Snapcaster Mage variants. Removing a Mana Leak can potentially save you from up to 7 additional Mana Leaks throughout that game..not to mention if you can pop their Unburial Rites you should probably win the game.
Nihil Spellbomb - Another great weapon against Solar Flare control. I wouldn't sleeve up without at least 3 of these in my sideboard.
Severe the Bloodline - Against tokens this could be extremely relevant, although I think we have more versatile options agaisnt them. I would personally rather use it to exile a Wurmcoil Engine.
Bloodgift Demon - This is the guy who confided in Bob to make him the Dark Confidant. When he's not flying over for 5 or drawing you extra cards, he enjoys blocking Inkmoth Nexus and long walks on the beach. Card Advantage + Threat = Bigger Threat.
Grave Titan - There's a reason why he sells for almost double what all the other titans go for. This guy is completely nuts. Another staple for us, since he's a finisher on his own, and creates lots of blockers to help against aggro.
Sheoldred, Whispering One - Since we will generally have a low number of finishers in this deck, she may turn out to be a great option. I haven't tested her myself yet, mainly because I don't want my curve going up that high.. but I haven't ruled her out. Being able to revive a fallen titan or Wurmcoil could be huge. If you're running more ramp or Heartless Summoning, I would recommend trying a singleton Sheoldred.
Sphere of the Suns - Since we're playing 3 colors, this card is extremely viable. If you run this and a couple planeswalkers, it might be worth your while to go big-red style and use Volt Charge.
Ratchet Bomb - An amazing board sweeper, especially since we don't have many low-cost permanents we'd lose to it anyway. Great for taking out tokens and Invisible Stalker.
Solemn Simulacrum - Jund control will generally operate a little slower, and it's running 3 different colors. Solemn Simulacrum is maindatory material, especially if you're running board sweepers and Altar's Reap (which you should be).
Rampant Growth - If you love that ramp, then go for it. If you're going the Kessig Wolf Run / Primeval Titan route I would say this card is probably a definite 3-of, if not 4.
Birds of Paradise - We're not really trying to be fast or explosive here. They die to your sweepers, they're just begging to be removed. Save your BOPs for another deck.
Spellskite - If you're running a creature-heavy build then I could definitely recommend using this. Personally I think this guy belongs in Birthing Pod and Tempered Steel, not here.
Tumble Magnet - I would say it's sideboard at best, and only if you're doing the proliferate thing. Could be a house against Phantasmal Image though..
Inkmoth Nexus - I personally don't think there's any reason to run this card in this sort of deck, even if you're win-goal is Primeval Titan and Kessig Wolf Run. We're playing 3 colors here, we don't need to run more colorless lands than we absolutely have to.
Wurmcoil Engine - Another no-brainer. An excellent finisher that practically wants to be destroyed. There are ways of exiling it, which can be annoying.. but the lifegain aspect can be game-changing.
Batterskull - Same basic idea as the Wurmcoil Engine, although it can be potentially harder to get rid of, if you play your cards right (no pun intended). I would run a singleton at most, but recently I've switched mine to a Wurmcoil without any increase in success honestly.
Deck Lists:
For now I'll list the two variations I've been brewing, but I welcome and encourage others to toy around with this idea and report back with results. If anyone is having reasonable success, please let the thread know! And I'll be happy to include your build here in the OP.
4 Viridian Emissary
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Acidic Slime
2 Inferno Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Instants:
4 Go for the Throat
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Altar's Reap
4 Distress
3 Arc Trail
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Red Sun's Zenith
Lands:
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Copperline Gorge
5 Forest
5 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Naturalize
3 Blasphemous Act
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Acidic Slime
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Grave Titan
2 Inferno Titan
Instants:
4 Go for the Throat
3 Altar's Reap
Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Distress
2 Red Sun's Zenith
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Geth's Verdict
Lands:
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Copperline Gorge
5 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Naturalize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Slagstorm
But basically the deck hoses aggro and most Blade variants. The recurring bodies of Solar Flare just give me trouble..