MTG Salvation

Regarding Stubborn Denial: The way I see, it all depends on what you want to be prepared for. Do you want to prepare for your worst match-ups, where it's difficult to gain percentage points no matter how you cut it (though a smoother mana base helps) or do you want to be prepared for the decks that are most popular? I'll assess the value of Stubborn Denial, and the opportunity cost of running the 4th color, against some of the biggest contenders.

• Izzet Phoenix (8.5% meta share) - Stub is a house, one of your best cards for the match. Easily worth the splash mana
• Grixis Shadow (6.75% meets share) - Stub is useful but not always live, but good as a force Spike because they play a low and on curve. Not much effort to run the 4th color since they don't attack our mana. Red mana isn't important in this match so blue is arguably the next third color here (if let's say you have Snapcaster or Delay)
• Burn (5.75% meta share) - Stub is once again your best card for the match-up. It's worth packing a 4th copy in SB if your meta is burn heavy. No contest that blue is a necessary color for a considerable win % increase here, even at risk of mana base life loss.
• Affinity (including Scales) (4.5% meta share) - this match-up I am most on the fence about which is better to play. While they're both creature-based aggro, they both have crucial targets for Stub. The mama base pain should be considered. And personally I don't feel either traverse shadow variant should struggle in this match.
• Dredge (4.25% meta share) - Extremely versatile card that stops all their key enablers. Not essential to maintain a positive win % for this match-up but also little to no risk by running a 4th color.
• Bant Spirits (3.75% meta share) - Stub is mediocre here but has a few key targets that can swing the tide of the game. Overall I would estimate that Jund Shadow probably has a better win % however, due to less damage from your mana base. In my 4C list, I keep 1x Stub post SB.
• Straight Jund (3.75 meta share) - Our worst (or close 2nd) match-up. Stub isn't going to help much as they are heavily interactive and always have extra mana to pay the force Spike. 3C Shadow clearly has a better win rate (though still not great by any standards)
• Jeskai (3.5% meta share) - IMO our worst match-up. While stub is slightly more useful here than against Jund, the 4th color isn't free because they are both a burn deck and a control deck. Either version of our deck is going to have a tough time gaining % points no matter how you Sideboard.
• Humans (2.9% meta share) - Stub is awful and you're clearly better off playing Jund Shadow if you're preparing for a Humans meta game.
• Amulet Titan (2.9% meta share) - While it doesn't help with their key threat, it stops crucial combo pieces such as Amulet or Summoning Pact. Since they don't attack our mana and they're not aggro, there's virtually no cost to running the 4th color and increasing your win % here.
• 4C Whir (2.75% meta share) - Stub is a house and dominates the match-up. Though Shadow is heavily favored here regardless.
• G/x Tron (2.5% meta share) - same as above. Very useful for the match-up but we're favored either way.
• UW control (2.5% meta share) - stub is more useful here than against jeskai because of Terminus, but UW also leans heavily on the mana Denial plan so the 4th color is a big liability. Jund Shadow is far from favored in this match, however slightly more favored than GDS or 4C.

So how do we assimilate this information? Do we take the scariest, most difficult to win matches, and build based on what works best there? Humans, UWx, and BGx are certainly the most difficult to win, and Jund colors will prove more consistent and useful, but to what degree? And what share of the meta are you really prepared for here? Or do we prepare for the considerably larger share of the meta against which Stubborn Denial will add win % at little to no cost regarding mana base? Humans is the only deck where stub is completely dead, and it's dropped to a pathetic 3% meta share.

Personally, in an open meta like GP LA which I'll be attending, I'd like to be prepared for the 29% of the meta (Tron, Whir, Dredge, Affinity, Burn, Phoenix, Storm, Infect) against whom I want stub and don't mind the 4th color, rather than be worried about the 13% of the meta (UWx, BGx, Humans) where stub and 4th color are a big opportunity cost that will cost you percentage points against opponents that are near impossible to beat anyway. I did not include in these cuts the 12.5% meta share from GDS, Amulet Titan, and Spirits because I feel that stub and the 4th color are not a huge hindrance but are likely only slightly helpful. Personally I strongly recommend blue for these matches but because of Delay which has been great for me.

To attack this from an angle relative to Defish's point: what matches are you undoubtedly worse off against without stub? I'm not taking about Tron, Affinity, Spirits, or Amulet because while stub is applicable in those matches, Jund Shadow can be tuned to be highly favored. But my primary concerns are Phoenix, Dredge, and Burn which occupy a considerable meta share and our win % is definitely higher with stub than without.

Personally, I'm keeping my stubs. No qualms about Jund Shadow players or the results they put up. All of my analysis really shows that there's a valid argument for both sides. I just like Stub. I feel that the best cards in the deck are Death's Shadow, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Stubborn Denial and Temur Battle Rage. And they're each the respective reason why I play each color

My speculation is that Incubation will push the Eldritch / Chord deck to be good. The Vizier combo doesnt need black anyway, and they already play Noble, so you just splash blue instead. The deck already plays Commune with Nature but typically has no maindeck removal. My thoughts


A mainboard answer that exiles with no target restrictions? Sign me up!

Why assume that the Canopy cycle, if ever finished, would result in each color pair drawing a card when sacrificed? What if the cycle had different functions when sacrificed? Examples

Murky Depths
Land
T, pay 1 life: add U or B.
1, T, Sac: target player discards a card.

Hillside Beacon
Land
T, pay 1 life: add R or G.
1, T, Sac: Create a 2/2 red and green warrior token.

Each one could create a solid +1 card advantage in one form or another, but requiring sacrificing the land.

Quote from Piney_Tinecones »

Alright, so I ordered everything I need except for the Polluted Deltas. Unfortunately the list I was looking at when I said all I was missing was the DS’s and the U Shocklands was THIS ONE that didn’t play any Deltas (and played 4x Verdants, 4x Mires, and 3x Foothills instead), I’m assuming as a budget decision. I didn’t realize it at the time.

I could order the Deltas now, but I kinda already pushed my budget limits. I bought a second Liliana, the Last Hope, the fourth Leyline of the Void (I needed that one anyway, I thought I could get by with three because the Hollow One decks were only running three back when I purchased those), and a fourth Lorwyn Thoughtseize (I only ever needed three at most for Jund. I have Theros TS’s, but there’s no way I’m running mismatched cards or even newer printings of cards in a deck I care about). Those cards, plus the DS’s and old U Shocklands, kinda maxed me out $$$wise.

So, with that said, I’m going to try both Jund DS and 4c DS, and if I find that the Wooded Foothills are just too bad in 4c, I may trade some stuff into my LGS for 4x Khans Polluted Deltas as a placeholder until I can spring for the Onslaught Deltas. Do you think the Foothills will be a big setback to my manabase? I can’t stand playing suboptimal lists.

I can’t lie, I watched some videos last night (Holy s*** Hoogland is almost unbearable to listen to sometimes) and Stubborn Denial seems really strong (and like you said, fetching for U really just forwards our plan of getting below 13 life, so there’s really not a downside). I’m motivated to play 4c based on what I saw and per your suggestion, Siegel. BUT... straight Jund Shadow would make me feel a little closer to home like I was just playing an Aggro-oriented classic Jund list. And between that familiarity, not needing Deltas, and because of DeFish’s suggestion, I’m also inclined to play that version. So I will try both, and do more research in the meantime.

I do really want to know though, so give it to me straight, how bad is Wooded Foothills in 4c? Is it going to give me a skewed impression of the deck? Here is that list again that I was initially going off of, for reference.

And I really appreciate the input, by the way. Both of y’all.

While the choice between 4c and Jund is basically dependent on how important stubborn denial is for your expected meta game, I think that Wooded Foothills are generally ok considering a couple factors. As a die-hard 4c player myself, I find that watery grave is typically the first shock I fetch. Now of course this depends on my opening hand and what I know about the opponent so far, but consider that my only main deck blue cards are 3x Stubborn. My value for blue may be accentuated by the blue sideboard options. Burn and Tron are very popular and they are both match-ups that are easy to push to 60% or better with some sideboard tech.

Here's why I consider all 4 colors to be critical.
Blue is crucial for beating burn and KCI (counter spells), and still very good against Tron, Storm, Dredge and Primeval Titan.
Red is crucial for beating Humans and Spirits (removal, sweepers, TBR) but also helps against Affinity, Scales, KCI, and Storm.

And while BGx midrange and UWx control are near impossible to win, I feel that my counter spells are one of the few edges I have in the match ups. For reference, here's my current list

I think the problem is bloodbraid elf. There is no deck I can think of where Shaman OTGH is a better choice at 4 CMC than the classic BBE. Both have haste, both vulnerable to literally all the same removal. But one gets guaranteed value (even through a counter spell) and another takes considerable effort to create value.

He explains why in an earlier post at the top of this page. Trophy gets very awkward when you draw multiples early game when it's likely they still have basics left. Ramping them (with an untapped land!) hurts worse thn you'd think during turn 1-3 or even later if they happen to be stuck on lands.

IMO you want Trophy as a late game catch-all against UWx, or early game against H1 and Tron. Otherwise most circumstances and match-ups I believe Abrupt decay is superior. Against Storm, Burn, Humans, Spirits - Trophy is actively bad so I certainly wouldn't want 4x in my main deck. And TBH I wouldn't play more than 3 in my 75 and I wouldn't run less than 2 Abrupt decay (in the 75)

----EDIT

To point out something people keep overlooking:

Decay is not bad against UW or Tron. It is actively good against UW because it destroys SFA, Detention Sphere, Vendilion, Rest in Peace, little Gideon (if they use him) and it can't be countered. Trophy helps mid-to-late game against Planeswalker, flipped Azcanta, and a lethal Colonnade. Both are important and useful, but you don't want either of them in copious amounts.

Decay kills Oblivion Stone AND kills their turn 1 Map if you're on the play. Both of these applications have been relevant in my competitive play experience. I don't even board out decay against Tron because it kills chalice, and also kills (or forces them to pop) Relic of Progenitus.

I'm currently on Jund Shadow splashing blue for Stubborn denial but that plan will switch to Sultai splashing red for TBR once the new toys are released. My big question to you all isv what do you think about Mausoleum Secrets? If we swap Mishra's Bauble out for Architects of Will, we get our Undergrowth to X=1 fairly easily and then can tutor out Fatal Push, Death's Shadow, or Thoughtseize. It gets to X=3 a lot faster than you think, which then opens up tutors for LOTV, Unmoored Ego (out of SB), Collective Brutality, Dismember, Assassin's Trophy, Countersquall (my favorite!) The list I'm testing:


Crime/Punishment is super sexy as a sweeper out of the board because it can be tutored for X=2!!

Overall just being an instant speed tutor means you can wait until the time is right to search, rather than have to tutor main phase, give them your information, then cast it the following turn.

The important thing is having enough discard outlets to pitch your Bridge, should you draw it. Unlike Vine and Ghast, it does absolutely nothing from your hand. Bridge also seems fragile against creature heavy decks that will likely block every combat

Original RAV shocks will go up in value, RTR block shocks will drop.

I'm not sure why they'd ban shocks from Brawl though

Noble Council G
Sorcery (R)
Kicker WU
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may reveal a blue, green, or white creature card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
If Noble Council was kicked, put that creature onto the battlefield instead.

IIW: design a multicolored Liliana (which colors, up to you) that represents her while under Nico Bolas's command.

I don't see it. Both decks function from their eggs. Eldrazi leans heavily on its discard spells to beat unfair decks, and their eye of ugin + 1 land hands don't even allow for 1 charge counter. U torn has played it but that matchup is so rare and favorable that I'll give them those games.

Quote from FuneralofGod »

I'm considering breaking into this archetype. Has a hybrid version of this deck and hatebears been tested? The Arbiter/Aven + Path/GQ combo seems suitable here

I've been trying this out:


Needs some tuning but it's pretty fun to play.

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Vampiric Rites



Never seen this card discussed. I've toyed with it in the odd experiment. I think it would be good either as a build-around (4x Bloodghast ), or as just a way to get value out of everyday creatures dying (block with a faerie rogue and sac...). Anybody out there see potential for this cheap utility enchantment? Aristocrats, BW Tokens, Dredgevine? Or perhaps getting some extra draws out of those Eldrazi tokens I see running around?

Shocklands are garbage, duals ETB untapped without you having to pay life. Can't believe they're format staples.

Quitting Modern to play Vintage now (Legacy is for plebs, why play Lotus Petal when I can play Black Lotus. Also, Ancestral Recall > all your bull***** cantrips).

Thoughts of Ruin

Promise of Bunrei adds some insurance against after a board wipe, which will inevitably be this deck's achilles heel in addition to its slow setup. Both Promise and Twilight Drover help you bridge into that second Devouring Greed, as the first one probably won't win on the spot but gain you enough life to draw into the second one. I guess you'd chip away some life with flying Spirit tokens before you Greed.

Drover gets a lot more powerful if you replace Parallel Lives with Doubling Season, but with just two enchantments and three Drovers I'm not sure if it will happen often enough to justify the extra mana. Doubling Season opens up for Gavony Township brokenness, but then we're starting to look like BW tokens and not a dedicated Greed deck. Adding some more mana dorks seems like a good idea, as most good plays in this deck are 3 mana or more.

Prompt: Necrotic Ooze

Quote from FuneralofGod »

My suggestion for the next challenge:
Return to the Ranks

Hmm, let's try:
So many ways to win.

Let's retry my first prompt: Devouring Greed

Every creature is going to have a plus and minus against certain decks, and plus or minus based on the build of list you are running. IE; Obzedat's going to be very good in the Jace/Goryo's deck, but almost unplayable in the typical 4color lists. It's also a bit mis-leading to generalize decks in the form of "aggro" and "combo". Yes these archtypes exist, but a creature's value changes upon the exact deck type. Thragtusk and Baneslayer offer lifegain and can be reasonable vs burn, but Thragtusk is pretty embarrassing against affinity, where as Baneslayer is an all-star. These nuances are important to remember.

Test to see what works is the only real way to determine what fits in your specific list against a certain deck type. For reference, I try to think about the deck I am playing against and what my strategy to beat them is. The creature should fill that role while also not completely being dead in other matchups if possible.
- Does Elesh Norn softlock the deck?
- Does Iona softlock the deck?
- Are they trading one for one with me?
- Are they trying to go way over the top or "big mana" me?
- Are they ignoring what I'm doing or ignoring the majority of cards in my deck?
- Can I cast this card if I draw it or do I have to Rites it to have an impact?
- Does this card generate immediate value when I cast/reanimate it, or does it have to do something first?

Hey guys, I'm new to the deck but after some tweaking I was able to take this list to a 5-0 finish in a Modern League:



My matches were:

R1: Grixis Twin (2-1)
- Only notable thing here was I kept a triple Smallpox hand (with Urborg) and he mulled to 5. The hand was terrible, but I couldn't pass up that situation and it was as brutal as I hoped.

R2: Jund (2-1)
- Every game I won was because he kept a 3 lander + Bob, but was met with Smallpox each time. The one game I lost was because I accidentally bolted the Goyf instead of Bob, which allowed him to draw out of his rut.

R3: Living End (2-1)
- I don't think I should have won this one, however, he seemed to get really greedy with his Cascades and I was able to blow him out each time with Jund Charm. Bloodghasts and Molten Vortex helped whittle him down until he died.

R4: RG Tron (2-1)
- Game 1 he didn't have Tron online for a few turns but he did land 2 relics, and there was no way I was coming back from that.
- Game 2 and 3 were much more favorable to me as I was able to quickly get Crime + Loam + Ghost Quarter / Strip Mine online before he could drop anything. Game 3 he did drop Karn but thankfully I had the Bolt to eliminate it before it took over the game

R5: Jeskai Twin (2-0, with Jace, VP?)
- Game 1 he was greedy with Exarch on my upkeep which met with a nice Smallpox. I also had 3 Bloodghast + Faithless looting in the opening hand, so I was pretty confident I was going to win that one.
- Game 2 was really grindy, thanks in part to him Pathing a Bloodghast to give me the land I needed to strip his hand with Crime. Souls took this game, and I did not see anything other than lands that entire game other than the Souls and that 1 Bloodghast.

Overall I really like the deck. Originally I did't have bolts or souls, and I was maxed out on Vortex and Infestation. I'm glad I added these guys as they were solely responsible for a handful of my wins. Blighted Fen used to be a Ghost Quarter and it did some work in practice matches, but it never came up in the real games so I'm still undecided on that one.