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Magic Market Index for April 20th, 2018
Pauper Review: Dominaria
The Limited Archetypes of Dominaria
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    i was feeling degenerate so i impulse bought my fateful showdowns. i found that the combo was pretty embarrassing sometimes. i turn 2 and turn 3d a griselbrand and led to me drawing 21 blanks. i forgot how much shoal helps this deck. there were a few times where ssgs were the bottleneck so i guess plunges may be a necessary evil even though the card looks mopey.

    loved the neonates over the hugs as a blocker and a pinger. i think i would play a few md interactions as additional discard outlets.

    the deck feels fun but I'm not sure if i can handle what i think is a meaningfully higher fail rate than grishoalbrand
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Went X-3 at the Team GP in Sydney with this list.

    My team scraped in 24th with a record of X-5. Across the course of the 14 rounds I had 10 turn 2 wins, 7 of them against Tron, 3 of those through hate.

    Given the opportunity to play it again I'd change 1 Bontu's Reckoning to an Anger of the Gods.

    I don't have the time right now to write out my entire sideboard notes as they include play/draw for most match ups but this sideboard is pretty tight. I did not feel the need for a Grave Titan or an Emrakul in the board. All of my losses were to variance against match ups with a clock (Humans, Affinity, Affinity)
    Great job! punish those durdley players

    I'm not sure if Chalice of the Void is appropriate in this meta - did you find yourself bringing them in much?
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Spooly »
    I actually feel not too bad against the shadow decks. It's still bad, but sometimes you can just kill them with Fateful Showdown for a moderate amount if they get too aggro on their life total. I've stolen more than one game that way.
    I'd imagine it's better for your list because of those 3 extra win cons. I was talking about for shoal where there was no way for me to ever punish the low life total besides the actual combo
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Spooly »
    Yeah, Morphose is probably worth making it fit. Especially since Cathartic is so unimpressive. I plan on trying the extra Grave Titans. I tried the Neonates just now, and they allowed for some nice trickery with holding reanimation targets in hand until the last moment, and, like you said, chip shot damage pre-emrakul. (3-2 in that league) I liked having access to them. Defense Grid is definitely worth trying too.

    I suspect you're probably right about which build is better, mainly because the life gain is really good right now. I feel about 50/50 against Hollow One and Affinity, a little worse against Burn, and can almost never beat Humans (I'm like 1-8 against them so far). But I think there's some promise here if the issues can be fixed, if only because it's a little more consistent about putting a fatty into play since Goryo's can target Emrakul, and unlike older Grisebrand/Emrakul builds it has a fairly consistent combo-kill off Griselbrand once it's in play. Though probably not as consistent as Grishoalbrand's combo-kill.

    Maybe the secret is to pick the right tertiary color. Blue seems natural due to the card selection, but we could play stuff like Lingering Souls, or even Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseum --- Fateful Showdown is a kill for that combo too.
    ad naus+angel's grace idea is so far fetched and degenerate that I may have to try..

    also, don't worry about humans. just as how I felt vs GDS when they were popular, I just hope to win 2 sideboarded games and turn 2 them or draw all of my sweepers and pray. awful matchup
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Spooly »
    A one of Lavaclaw Reaches actually sounds kinda interesting...

    I considered Defense Grid, but EOT Goryo's/Emrakul + untap try again is a common line against blue decks, often splicing onto a ritual in order to get multiple uses. But maybe it's worth giving up those lines to really put the hurt on countermagic. I really wish Field of Ruin wasn't everywhere in the blue decks so that the land which grants uncounterable was better.

    More Grave Titans does sound pretty sweet. I'd really like a haymaker that the countermagic decks can't deal with. Something like Dromoka, but castable.

    Wanting manamorphose to filter the mana for Griselbrand hasn't come up much in my experience, but shrinking the deck size is interesting. I'm not entirely sure how to fit it in though. Shaving a Cathartic is easy, but after that I dunno.

    Someone on reddit suggested trying 1-2 Insolent Neonate instead of Cathartics, since it sometimes will be great with Infernal Plunge to help power out Breach those T2/3 breaches. I think it's worth trying.

    well, you kinda were pioneering manamorphose in traverse shadows so I had assumed you would like that situation:p

    I think both defense grid and EOT spell/splice limits the effectiveness of countermagic. I like that it severely restrictes the lines of play from control decks which gives you more options. Plus it's permanent based hate that your opponent should have no answers for. And agree, Boseiju ceased to be viable as soon as Field of Ruin started seeing widespread play.

    I've been testing Grave Titans in the grishoalbrand SB. I'd imagine it'd be better in your shell due to all of the ramp. I like that it creates immediate value and can win the game on its own. Also like that it's a viable Breach thread because 6 power haste which leaves 8 powers of damage will win the game sometime.

    Cathartic has been the worst card in my grishoalbrand lists by far. I've been actively looking for other solutions (like MD lightning axe or brutality). Neonate seems interesting as a roadblock/extra ways to get them down to 15. Great with infernal Plunge obviously. I'm leaning towards the list not being better than Grishoalbrand, but it looks interesting enough/fun enough that I want to give it a try and challenge people to a showdown.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Spooly »
    Basically, I think you can think about this deck as the BR Griselbrand/Emrakul Fury of the Horde build, except it has a more consistent combo kill with Griselbrand that doesn't _have_ to use the combat step, though it typically does, and is better at putting the opponent away after getting a nonlethal Emrakul hit in, since Fateful Showdown for 3 or whatever is not hard to assemble. missed this function of the card. pretty sweet

    Attempts to combo kill with Griselbrand have two fail cases: 1) you don't draw Fateful Showdown. This happens sometimes, and is a reason to consider not drawing the last 7 cards if going that low will be dangerous. 2) Not drawing enough mana to cast Showdown. This is usually only a problem when you're going for it on turn 2/3 and don't have the luxury of leaving untapped lands up. But Plunge REALLY helps you pull this one off. Also, sometimes you can just put a hasty Emrakul into play before the combat step instead of hitting with Griselbrand for 7 and trying to find the last pieces to Showdown them. This is obviously preferable to taking a chance on missing the needed pieces. Note also that if you have excess mana, you can use Looting and Cathartic to dig further to find the showdown. Just make sure you don't deck yourself with Showdown (see below)!

    I'm not entirely sure how strong the deck is. I do think it's better than the Fury of the Horde builds, but I don't know about Grishoalbrand just because I have so little experience with that archetype. I do like being able to Goryo's Emrakul, which is a thing you can't do with Worldspine Wurm. I'm still bitter about learning that the hard way.Agree it feels better than the fury version. I've tried a variety of non-shoal, non-Borby versions, such as straight BR, Grixis, BR with blood moon etc. I felt like there were too many instances where a cheated fatty didn't end the game on the spot, or the combo was too hard to assemble consistently. A big draw to playing Grishoalbrand is the fact that you can win at instant speed on the spot and its great burn matchup. I felt like all of the non-borby/shoal versions suffered from a bad blue matchup as well as anything remotely linear. With borby blue decks are great to play against

    I also played it in an IQ over the weekend, and went 3-3. Perhaps with some absurd variance. For example round 1 I played against BR Hollow One, and had a turn 3 "kill" (i.e. put a fatty into play) in my opener all three games. Game 1 I Griselbrand + Showdowned him. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (he was on the play). Game 3 he had turn 0 Leyline, and my turn 3 kill would have used Goryo's. Similarly, in round 6 I had a turn 3 kill in my opener against Bushwhacker Zoo all three games. Game 1 I Emrakulled him to death. Game 2 he killed me on turn 3 (again, he was on the play). Game 3 I had the turn 3 kill, but he was clearly representing Deflecting Palm. So I passed, put Griselbrand into play at the end of his turn 3, then on my turn 4 added Emrakul and attacked. I went to 4 after he Palmed because of lifelink, but put him on no permanents and at something like 8 life. He found a fetch and went to 5, then killed me before I could power up my Fateful Showdown for lethal. Dems da breaks.i sympathize.. one of the most frustrating thing I experienced playing the non-combo version was finishing the opponent off. Playing bad cards like Lavaclaw Reaches isn't the answer either.

    Some useful notes:
    • Pact of Negation felt awful, since we can't usually win at instant speed, and in many matchups where you want Pact, Emrakul isn't typically lethal. After the IQ, I've replaced it with Guttural Response, and it's felt a lot better. Have you tried defense grid? I'm not sure how often you'd be using splice tricks in this version, and I feel like defense grid would make life harder for your opponent even if it costs more to do EoT spells. Guttaral seems like a reasonable option as well, or just play more discards
    • If you have more cards in hand than in your library when you cast a lethal Fateful Showdown, you will draw the game. Even if you discard an Emrakul this way. But if you have a spare mana and can Faithless Looting away an Emrakul before you cast Showdown, that's usually enough to keep Showdown from also killing you.
    • Fateful Showdown is also secretly interaction and card selection. A common line is to kill something like a Scavenging Ooze while cycling 4+ cards in your hand, possibly putting a Griselbrand into the graveyard.
    • Note that if you need to be sure you hit Showdown to win with Griselbrand and you've had to filter several away, you can always discard an Emrakul to shuffle them back in.
    • This deck really wants better card selection more than anything else you might try to improve. Not that I think better options exist.yup, feel your pain. need a black serum vision obviously.
    • I don't know how much this shows up in other builds, but I've hardcast a lot of Griselbrands with this shell. There's just so much fast mana. happens sometimes but not very often. I could see your list going up in # of Grave Titans with all of your mana accelerants. You could also play some manamorphoses as cantrips/ways to filter mana into casting griselbrand from your red mana
    • IRL I have an EE over the Lightning Axe.
    • People on MTGO seem to get upset when you finish them off with Showdown after a nonlethal Emrakul. harvest all of the salt

    Interesting stuff! Have some thoughts in red..
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from damnjoni »
    I want to dedicate one more card to jund/bgx midrange decks in my sideboard. What do you think is the best option?

    Current side:
    I'm thinking of adding Hazoret the Fervent, Necrotic Ooze or something big like Grave Titan.

    Or should I just stick to Blood Moons + EE and use the last space for something else?
    Granted, both Hazoret and Grave Titan would be hard to beat on its own for BGx, but the restriction on Hazoret may mean she doesn't always work like you want her to work.

    I've been fine with replacing the moons and chalices with Leylines. I've also toyed around with Arguel's Blood Fast. Arguel's just a rough sketch in my mind so far though - haven't had a chance to test.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Boonty »
    Hello, it is now 5/6 months that I play GriselDaddy.
    I am looking to gain experience with the deck, in paper very exclusively. I have to go this weekend to an event, I don't know exactly which side to choose. I'm getting used to this one (Finalnub GP):

    1 Collective Brutality
    3 Blood Moon
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Pact of Negation
    2 Shattering Spree

    but since the unban sides are more like this:

    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Pact of Negation
    1 Lightning Axe
    1 Shattering Spree
    2 Collective Brutality
    3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Grave Titan

    Several questions :

    Blood Moon and Leyline can't be together because they are for the same MU?

    What are the MUs where LL have to be in? And should we force 100% to have it in the starting hand in some games?

    Are not we weaker against control.deck now?

    In which MU does the titan have to be side? Is it really so impacting? And instead of what?

    Thanks so much,

    Agree that Chalice is no longer needed

    Leyline is for BGx/shadows/Lantern/Burn/Valakut generally. I would not mulligan for it. If you have a good generic combo hand just keep that. Your plan A is still going to be better than your opponent's on average.

    We've always had a good matchup vs control and I don't think anything's changed that. With my latest configuration we lose chalices and blood moon and we still have powerful tools in Pact of Negation and Collective Brutailty.

    Grave Titan is for matchups where games tend to go long like BGx and control. Provides threat density and it's not a bad breach target either (6 power deathtouch that leaves 8 power behind) that you can actually just hardcast. BGx will have a very hard time beating a resolved Grave Titan. Side out some fatihless lootings as they are likely to be more GY hate centric post board and it's card disadvantage
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Catscratches »
    Hey dudes,

    I've been on grishoalbrand for about a year now, and was inspired by Finalnub to start recording match stats. Since I began recording, i'm 31-12, including two FNM 4-0's in paper and a 5-0 league (72% winrate!!). Until now, I have mostly observed and have not weighed in, but I feel it is time to mention a few things i've noticed.

    I want to start by thanking Finalnub for the super in-depth primers. It was awesome to see that I had found the vast majority of the lines with the deck at one point or another, but it was also awesome to learn something. Until this primer I was not aware of the advantages of responding to a worldspine shuffle in the cleanup step - and I used this little interaction against a UW control player the very day after I learned it. Thanks!


    This segues nicely into my first observation - in addition to the splice bug, I found that MTGO does not properly handle Angel's Grace and this shuffle trigger. In one of my MTGO matches, I threw a land at an opponent in response to the shuffle trigger during the cleanup step and they did not take damage, as the Angel's Grace did not properly wear off. Lucky for me he did not have a second one during his upkeep, but just another small % bug to be aware of.


    For most of my recorded games, I stuck pretty close to Finalnub's board strategy. After a rough 2-3 league where I was hit by 2+ thoughtseize/iok per game for 4 of my 5 rounds, I decided to try out Leyline of Sanctity. Boy is that card great! With the heavy trend towards nihil spellbomb right now, not only do you blank your opponents hand disruption, you blank their graveyard disruption too! I really can't believe how good it has been. If you guys haven't tried it out yet, it feels excellent in this meta.


    The last thing i'll touch on is Quicksilver Amulet. I was enamored with the idea of boarding out 1 goryo's and boarding in 1-2 quicksilver amulets to hedge against graveyard interaction game 2-3, but overall I would say this card is not worth it. The thing that really kills it is the lack of haste. Worldspine wurm and Quicksilver amulet is a 3-turn endeavor. I will always be on the lookout for a new card that functions like TTB out of the board, but this is not it. Try it or don't, but that's where I stand on it right now. I've seen Necrotic Ooze come up a bit here, but I think that is not the direction you want to go. The problem g2/3 is always graveyard hate. I guess ooze is pretty sweet if grafdigger's cage becomes the #1 graveyard hate card, but overall it just feels like playing into your opponent's disruption.


    Thats all i've got for now, thanks for the discussion in this thread - it's been super helpful to me over the course of learning this deck!

    Welcome! Glad you found those helfpul and always good to read tournament reports. Keep it up!

    Re: grace, yes I found that to be the case as well. I wouldn't try it on MTGO. Also I think Quicksilver Amulet is a bit too clunky to me. It's slow and it doesn't necessarily make us threat dense. YMMV though and if it works well for you, let us know!
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    This could be manaical, but how about playing Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard? Aim is to have a 1 card win condition vs. Humans/Hollow One/Shadows/Bogles/Eldrazi variants whoa re not likely to have answers to a Bridge post-board
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from birdsofwar »
    I will be pretty much swapping out bant knightfall for one of these goryo's decks. Of the two, which one is better moving forward; the esper goryo version, or the grishoalbrand version. As I am only able to invest into one of these so the initial decision is rather important for me.
    I've tried both. Esper Ghostdaddy's pretty fun and interactive. If you like grinding and making midrange decisions you may like it.

    If you like the combo archetype where you can combo kill on turn 2 and is versatile enough to not be dead to a single hate piece, this may be for you. If you are purely competitive and want to maximize your chance of spiking a tournament or two, Grishoalbrand is most certainly the choice.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from damnjoni »
    Played a small ~15 player event at the local store today, capped at 4 rounds. The deck I played:

    Matchup lottery did definitely not favor me this time around.

    Round 1 - 4-color Death's Shadow
    My teammate. I know what he's playing but don't know his exact current version.
    G1: He plays 3 discard spells but no pressure. I loot and hug. Eventually I draw a vengeance and go off.
    -Brutality, -Axe, -Wurm, -Breach, -Ritual, -Looting, +Chalices, +Moons, +EE
    G2: I realize my mistake of siding in Chalices on the draw when he plays DS and spellbomb on turn two. This time he had no discard but quick pressure (with spellbomb as disruption).
    G3: Same sideplan. Mull to a questionable 6 of temples and card draw. Decide to keep as it's kind of ok vs. discard. He gets an early Tarmogoyf and some discard. I'm on the backfoot the whole game, and manage to land a Chalice, which he Decays. Then I get down a Moon, but the Goyf gets me before I find the combo.
    1-2 (0-1)
    This truly feels like a bad matchup. A quick Moon would be lights out, but it's hard to stick against a discard deck.

    Round 2 - 5-color homebrew
    G1: He plays Inquisition, Lingering Souls, Bolt and Helix, so I'm thinking some sort of Mardu midrange. He always has a white source open, so I'm afraid to Breach a Wurm in fear of a Path. He suprises me by fetching a green shockland and drops a Bloodbraid Elf! Cascade hits Kolaghan's Command and I'm forced to form a new plan. He attacks, I shoal and survive with one open mana and SSG, Vengeance, Breach in hand and a Borb in the yard. I feel my only way to win is to Vengeance in his end step and either draw a creature or hit enough lands with Borb. I draw a Wurm and Breach for the win. His lone card was all the time a Forest, not a Path.
    -Axe, -Brutality, +EE, +Spree
    G2: He plays a turn 2 RIP, I counter with an EE. I sculpt a nice hand against no pressure, and finally Breach a Wurm with a Vengeance backup-plan. He Terminates the Wurm but the tokens go all the way.
    After the games he shows me how he sided in 3 RIPs and 2 Surgicals.
    2-0 (1-1)

    Round 3 - Lantern
    At this point I've seen most decks in the event. There's some Trons, Goblin deck, UR Breach, at least one more brew and a Zombie Hunt in addition to the 4-c DS and the rainbowbrew I've played. I was hoping to face a nice heavy Tron or a slow midrange deck. My prayers went unanswered.
    G1: I look at my hand and a t2 Griseldaddy stares back at me. I play my land and loot away the demon. He lauhgs, plays a Spire of Industry, Bauble and passes. Lantern. Our enemy #1. Well, what's he gonna do against a turn 2 Necropotence-on-a-stick. Game one: a homerun. I count my blessings and move to sideboarding.
    -Axe, -Brutality, -Wurm, -Breach, +Sprees, +EE
    G2: He plays a turn one Cage and a turn two Lantern + millrock. I loot a Griselbrand and play an EE for one. T4 he draws a Pithing Needle and goes deep into the tank. I have 4 cards in hand. He has an Whir on top. He decides to hold his Needle and plays a second Bridge. I have a chance to go for it, and I take it: Endstep break EE and mainstep Vengeance. I drew 14, shoaled a Borb and drew 7 more (at 7 life). Then I ran out of shoals. Gasp. I have the option to either exile a mana-ape to loot, or exile two apes to spree and attack, or play red land and/or manamorphose before any of these. I decide not to morphose and instead burn the bridges and attack to draw 7. Jackpot. Land>SSG>Loot away a Borb>Manamorphose for B>Vengeance Borbie>throw enough lands in his face to slay the metallic dragon! Wohoo!
    2-0 (2-1)

    Round 4 - Storm
    We know what each other is playing, and agree that the dice roll in crucial in this matchup. I end up losing the roll.
    G1: I have almost a perfect hand, only missing one land to t2 combo. I draw, loot and Whisper for a few turns. Nope. When I finally hit the second land, he Remands me twice and goes off.
    -Hugs, -Wurm, -Breach, +Chalices, +Pacts. I'm quite sure he sides the Goblin-plan out, and some permission in. I consider bringing in Nahiri's for more removal/enabler.
    G2: I start with a good hand of Pact, Brutality, Vengeance and a Looting. He plays a turn 2 Electromancer. I Brutality it and see a hand of Negate, Remand and a Swan Song which I bin. He plays a land, performs a Sleight a Hand and passes. I reanimate the big guy, he remands and I pact. I proceed to an easy win.
    -Chalice +EE
    G3: I mull to a questionable 6 with chalice and some card draw. He also mulled to 6 and scried to bottom. I spent my first turns sculpting, and then play the Chalice. He plays a Baral. I draw a Brutality, and consider playing it, but opt to play a looting and a scryland instead. The reasoning was that he had mana open for a Remand, and I needed to advance my board if I ever dreamed of winning. Well, got punished. He went for it and got there.
    1-2 (2-2)
    Maybe should have sided out the last Chalice as well, and bring in Nahiri's as an additional way of removal?

    2-2. Well the games went 6-4 against a very hostile field, and I won against the #1 enemy, so I'm definitely content with the result.

    Notes on the deck:
    -The Hugs are (finally) starting to grow on me. I specifically like them against discard, as they represent a whole 3 new cards for them to worry about.
    -I like the lone EE on the side. It's very easy to bring in blind.
    -I'm testing a Nahiri's Wrath on the side for midrange matchups. Serves as an extra enabler and a way to buy time against Goyfs and such.
    -It would be nice to hear how good Grave Titan has been. I don't own any yet and am considering buying some.

    Nahiri's Wrath is kind of interesting, but a lot has to go right for it to be super effective I think. Kind of high ceiling low floor. I'd be curious to test it.

    Grave titan so far has been ok, but I haven't had time to focus on Modern much lately unfortunately. It makes sense to me in theory, would like to hear if people have found it good. The two times I've resolved it it won the game for me.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    Quote from Ruffys »
    Without expecting tons of storm and DS is chalice really a good choice? Against what other decks do you bring this in?

    The post above captured a lot. some common ones:

    UWx Control (potentially)
    Marduy Pyromancer
    Ad Nauseam (potentially. Blood Moon could be better)
    Mono Blue Living End

    you're right that the meta has moved away from decks that depend on 1 cmc or 0 cmc. That's why I've kind of moved on for now.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Grishoalbrand / Griselbrand Reanimator
    I don't necessarily HATE the idea. Graveyard hate is a big roadblock for us and pre-sideboard I just prefer to keep everything as tight as I can. Even the few flex spots that are "interaction" that I play are enablers (i.e. Lightning Axe, Brutality).

    That said, I can definitely see myself playing a 1 of or 2 of Blood Moon main for the lols because of the surprise factor in game 1 (kind of the same reason as to why Mardu Pyromancer and Blue Moon Breach/Kiki/control play Blood Moon. It's just another axis of attack)
    Posted in: Combo
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