Since we are on the topic of Opt and its conflict with Chalice. I have to ask: Are we siding out Opt when we side in the Chalice? doesn't that fix like half the problem? In the matchups that we are already siding in chalice for (at x = 1), are there other cards we would like to side in with chalice? Siding in more than just chalice would let us side out Serum Visions as well. Wouldn't this would fix the problem all together?
Although losing the consistency that they give us is bad, this may become the thing to do when bringing chalice in. But assuming we side out 7-8 one mana cantrips for 3-4 chalice and 3-4(?card that doesn't cost 1 mana?) should work just fine as long as we are still drawing buckets of cards. My first thoughts are to bring in something that costs 0 mana and still give us something to do on turn 1 (Ancestral Vision), or cost 2 mana and draw me lots of cards (Extra Howling Mines?)
It sounds odd to put extra draw power in our sideboard but I have to suggest it as an option.
So it's good, no doubts there. It makes thing in the ice far better, this being perhaps the single biggest reason to run the card.
It helps us trim a land maybe, and can enable some temporal mastery shenanigans in opponent's turn.
However, downsides:
1) if we trim on instant speed interaction like remand or whatever else, the instant speed dig from opt gets much worse. The card is at its best if you can hold up a counterspell/interaction and then if they don't do anything nasty, you cantrip. Digging into interaction at instant speed is also decent. Without this angle, the card is significantly diminished and less worth a slot in your deck as you'll just be casting it at sorcery speed. Control wants it, we might not.
2) going up to 7 or 8 cantrips means less chalice in the sideboard, which has two problems. Firstly, you get preyed on by chalice decks now, which opens us up to eldrazi tron in a way that previously didn't exist. Secondly, without chalice (and presumably without leyline of sanctity?) your grixis/gbx death's shadow matchup really takes a hard dive. By dropping your own chalices and making yourself weak to them, you've worsened your matchup against the two best decks in the format. I'd say this was objectively the wrong direction to take.
All this leaves me unsure of how to treat the inclusion of opt in the deck. It could quite reasonably have a spot, but not at the sacrifice of serum visions. I would also think twice about building the deck such that we have to drop chalice, as it's a very potent sideboard option for us. I don't think there's an easy option honestly, but I'll be testing different builds over the coming weeks.
That seems like a very accurate assessment of where Opt stands. I have to point out in the past there have been some viable versions of this deck that ran sleight of hand in addition to serum visions. It may be a reasonable place to start when searching for a new "Optimal" build. I do remember watching these videos that Corbin Hosler made and thinking "He sure does draw a lot of cards"
He spends the first 2-3 turns just trying to draw as many cards as possible, which makes his build that much more consistent. Although he has to sacrifice his early game interaction to do it, it made his combo come together more consistently and once he got to combotown having those extra draws helped him keep going. In fact he states that he chose Spreading Seas over Remand so that mid combo he could keep drawing cards. The build is abit out of date but it should be a reasonable place to start when testing Opt.
Anybody see Perilous Voyage yet? Is this playable for those of us who were already playing Boomerang and/or Snapback. It can't hit lands like Boomerang and it's not free like Snapback but scry 2 and a bounce seems nice. Thoughts?
Playable: Yes
Better than Boomerang: ??
I have been disappointed in what the last several sets have given us. But Perilous Voyage has definitely caught my attention as a potential upgrade from Boomerang (which I was already running as a 2 of in some versions of my lists). When I start thinking about its drawbacks I can admit that once in a while I do bounce my own mine effects in response to Abrupt Decay. But I think I would value the sometimes scry 2 as a higher value than the drawback of losing that.
What I think will be missed much more is being on the play and bouncing their only land on our second turn. Being able to set them back and effectively (close enough anyways) Time Walk ourselves on into turn three while holding them back at turn one is huge. I know some of you may consider it win more (which in a way it is), after testing, it feels really good to pull that far ahead of them that early. I have compared it to sticking your arm out right as they fire the starting pistol and pushing backward on the guy next you. You should get off to a great start, him.... not so much.
Losing this ability to leap ahead that early might mean Perilous Voyage does not have as much of an edge on Boomerang as I think it does. I look forward to testing it. Scry 2 is very powerful. I have been sold on the idea that by Condescend and Serum Visions.
Well you are in the right place, as thats not a pet card around here, its a a 4 of Lock!
The reason to play this deck (for me) is so we can play Gigadrowse and Commandeer. This whole deck is full of pet cards. Sometimes I feel like I just sleeved up 37 pet cards and the lands they need to work right...
Seems better to me. Is indestructible and can tap for blue in the long game. Also would be useful if you have a splash.
Well, I will no longer be recommending Citadel to everyone. And I like the art on Cataracts more... so I guess this is a bit more than just strickly better, its also prettier. Plus crushing your opponents with an awakened rainbow clad waterfall has additional cool factor since our deck is so thick with blue and has a strong water and ocean subthemes.
I agree that it can dig deeper for more answers and that in some (very rare) corner cases it will draw you into the card needed for victory. The reason I think it is a "trap" is because on the surface it looks like an "only slightly less good" Mikokoro. Except Mikokoro actually nets us a card, the sanitarium merely increases our card quality. In order for our deck to keep momentum during the combo we must both cast a warp and make a land drop each turn. That is 2 cards. The sanitarium will not help us actually draw extra cards(net quantity), in order to maintain this pace. So unlike Mikokoro which is and engine and will help us to maintain this 2 cards per turn cost of comboing, the sanitarium merely helps us dig a little deeper (improving quality not quantity)
Which if it truly were "only slightly less good" I wouldn't be calling it a trap. Because it requires repeatable mana expenditures (unlike Thassa's scry), I wouldn't even count it as a fraction of an engine. Best case, its a mana sink for when we have nothing else better to do with our mana. I believe we will be better off with a different utility land, even a second Inkmonth or Darksteel Citadel as our third non-blue land.
C. I know many are testing Ux Turns... Outside of Mono-U, what is showing the most promise?
I play the Uw splash and I feel its about 5-10% stronger than monoblue post-sideboard. The extra quality that one gets by converting to their Grafdiggers Cage into Rest in Peace is the easiest upgrade for me to point out. We also access to cards like Angels Grace (the only reliable way we can beat Ad Nauseum besides Meddling Mage), and we are able to upgrade our Hurkyl's Recalls into Stony Silence and Kataki, War's Wage. Blood moon is rarely a problem (since I am monoblue game one and only have white in my sideboard, I exclusively fetch into basic islands game one, and when people see this, they side out their blood moons against me). The white splash makes for a resilient deck that can absolutely floor people with the awesome power that a good white hateboard brings to the table.
The green splash gives us Rites of Flourishing (wowza!! turn 3 Time Warp with enough mana to back it up with spell pierce). If I owned Noble Hierarchs I would test it.
For the most part no one (that i know of) is testing the black splash. There is a certain sadistic appeal to planting a Liliana, of the Veil with multiple( at least 2) engines in play, and then going into extra turns stripping their hand with +1's before ulting her repeatedly until they have no cards in hand and only a single land in play before you pass back... but I wouldn't call this strategy overly competitive, as we really could use almost any walker as a possible win con (Vraska? lol).
The Ur splash gives us the tried and true power of Bolt-Snap-Bolt. Truckis got several 5-0 finishes with this more tempo oriented build but i was never able to find success with it. I had problems where I lost all my momentum because we effectively replaced Part the Waterveil with lightning bolt. Losing the extra turns spells gave us more interaction, but I kept having to pass back when I wanted to keep going. Whereas with the U and Uw builds It doesn't really matter if the opposing board gets huge, or if they get most of the way through their gameplan to win, because I know no matter how far behind I fall I will still achieve victory once I start taking extra turns. By removing Part, his build lost its inevitability. Nowadays hes moved on to As Foretold Turns, it is explosive, powerful, and inconsistent.
And a little more recently Chandra, the Mind Sculptor has come to the party. The fact that she effectively only costs 2 mana in the mid and late game makes her an excellent finishing option for us. The fact that she is both a leverage card and a win condition makes her another double duty card for us (like Part the Waterveil and Jace Beleren). This double duty aspect is extremely appealing. Red does let us upgrade our sideboard a little with cards like Vandalblast. So in the near future Ur turns may become much more popular.
Most promise? Some Version of Ur with 2 Chandra, 1 Jace Beleren(maybe), and 2 Part the Waterveils as the wincons. Perhaps with extra velocity from Simian Spirit Guide.
tech for mono U against death shadow would be great. as of right now i literally have layline in the board. i cant cast it so most games i cross my fingers and hope its there. I have only played the matchup once and I won. Even though i had layline i still came very close to death as it really doesnt stop there overall beatdown game plan. it seems to me they can eat all the cards they want as long as they cant play their threats and have stuburn denial mana. so anyway to hate on the deck more would be fantastic. I recently picked up the deck and have had amazing success with playing baral. He went from being a sideboard card to a 2 of in the main. if you havent given him a shot definitly do so
I hate to sound like a broken record but here it is again. You need to splash white for actual sideboard hate. The upgrade that the splash will give you will outweigh the drawback of having a mixed land base. For example, it can be clearly seen that Rest in Peace > Grafdigger Cage in most cases.
The best answer I have come up with is to plant a Rest in Peace (this turns off Tarmogoyf and downgrades Traverse), And then follow it up with either a Runed Halo or Gideon's Intervention (naming Death's Shadow). This one-two combo punch should take them straight to scoopsville. They don't usually have ways of answering resolved enchantments.
White also opens up a whole slew of cards like Mirran Crusader. which might not be prefect for our deck, but he blocks Shadows and Tarmogoyfs like no other (and he laughs at Kcommand and Abrupt Decay).
If you insist on not splashing then I would load up on Chalice of the Void, get one set on X=1 and then hope to bounce all of their threats with either Atherize or Displacement Wave. Then watch them not be able to recast them. Hoping to luck into an opening Leyline is not where we want to be. But when it works, it works really, really well.
on a side note lots of Chalices and D-wave might be a viable way to answer lots of deck types not just shadows.
The sideboard is meta dependent and changes constantly.
Recently (the last 2 FNM's)I have been testing Geist of Saint Traft and he has definitely been punching above his weight class. Hexproof makes him almost as good as Indestructible. His drawback of having to attack with only 2 toughness can be mitigated with Exhaustion, Gigadrowse and proper use of Cryptic. Winning on turn 7-ish instead of 11-ish has given me less draws due to time, so for anyone interested in what I've been testing recently:
Ah yes, having to draw TWO dead late-game cards to get value! That's consistency, right there!
Even worse because that's LITERALLY just a Compulsive Research at that point. I know we're harshing on AF a lot, but nobody's running Compulsive Research in Modern, so I don't think it's worth it to plan for a situational version that requires you to draw into two poor draws in the late game. Definitely just an opinion with no experience behind it, though.
To be fair compulsive research IS played in momoblue tron, but if you dont have local monoblue players in your meta you may never see it in modern.
But to futher the point.. for how many turns were you staring at the visions debating on weather to suspend it or hope you will luck into an as fortold so you can finally get value out of it?
Or for how many turns were you staring at the as foretold but were locked into playing on curve and couldn't afford the three mana cause your busy trying to stay alive... if we dont jam it on turn three our next option is what... turn 8? or when we luck into a miracle on turn 5 or after.
None of this sounds very impressive. I have higher hopes for kefnet finding a long term home here and even that is a "if he proves himself" situation
1
Although losing the consistency that they give us is bad, this may become the thing to do when bringing chalice in. But assuming we side out 7-8 one mana cantrips for 3-4 chalice and 3-4(?card that doesn't cost 1 mana?) should work just fine as long as we are still drawing buckets of cards. My first thoughts are to bring in something that costs 0 mana and still give us something to do on turn 1 (Ancestral Vision), or cost 2 mana and draw me lots of cards (Extra Howling Mines?)
It sounds odd to put extra draw power in our sideboard but I have to suggest it as an option.
1
That seems like a very accurate assessment of where Opt stands. I have to point out in the past there have been some viable versions of this deck that ran sleight of hand in addition to serum visions. It may be a reasonable place to start when searching for a new "Optimal" build. I do remember watching these videos that Corbin Hosler made and thinking "He sure does draw a lot of cards"
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13450&writer=Corbin Hosler&articledate=8-15-2016
He spends the first 2-3 turns just trying to draw as many cards as possible, which makes his build that much more consistent. Although he has to sacrifice his early game interaction to do it, it made his combo come together more consistently and once he got to combotown having those extra draws helped him keep going. In fact he states that he chose Spreading Seas over Remand so that mid combo he could keep drawing cards. The build is abit out of date but it should be a reasonable place to start when testing Opt.
1
Playable: Yes
Better than Boomerang: ??
I have been disappointed in what the last several sets have given us. But Perilous Voyage has definitely caught my attention as a potential upgrade from Boomerang (which I was already running as a 2 of in some versions of my lists). When I start thinking about its drawbacks I can admit that once in a while I do bounce my own mine effects in response to Abrupt Decay. But I think I would value the sometimes scry 2 as a higher value than the drawback of losing that.
What I think will be missed much more is being on the play and bouncing their only land on our second turn. Being able to set them back and effectively (close enough anyways) Time Walk ourselves on into turn three while holding them back at turn one is huge. I know some of you may consider it win more (which in a way it is), after testing, it feels really good to pull that far ahead of them that early. I have compared it to sticking your arm out right as they fire the starting pistol and pushing backward on the guy next you. You should get off to a great start, him.... not so much.
Losing this ability to leap ahead that early might mean Perilous Voyage does not have as much of an edge on Boomerang as I think it does. I look forward to testing it. Scry 2 is very powerful. I have been sold on the idea that by Condescend and Serum Visions.
1
The reason to play this deck (for me) is so we can play Gigadrowse and Commandeer. This whole deck is full of pet cards. Sometimes I feel like I just sleeved up 37 pet cards and the lands they need to work right...
2
Well, I will no longer be recommending Citadel to everyone. And I like the art on Cataracts more... so I guess this is a bit more than just strickly better, its also prettier. Plus crushing your opponents with an awakened rainbow clad waterfall has additional cool factor since our deck is so thick with blue and has a strong water and ocean subthemes.
1
I agree that it can dig deeper for more answers and that in some (very rare) corner cases it will draw you into the card needed for victory. The reason I think it is a "trap" is because on the surface it looks like an "only slightly less good" Mikokoro. Except Mikokoro actually nets us a card, the sanitarium merely increases our card quality. In order for our deck to keep momentum during the combo we must both cast a warp and make a land drop each turn. That is 2 cards. The sanitarium will not help us actually draw extra cards(net quantity), in order to maintain this pace. So unlike Mikokoro which is and engine and will help us to maintain this 2 cards per turn cost of comboing, the sanitarium merely helps us dig a little deeper (improving quality not quantity)
Which if it truly were "only slightly less good" I wouldn't be calling it a trap. Because it requires repeatable mana expenditures (unlike Thassa's scry), I wouldn't even count it as a fraction of an engine. Best case, its a mana sink for when we have nothing else better to do with our mana. I believe we will be better off with a different utility land, even a second Inkmonth or Darksteel Citadel as our third non-blue land.
1
I play the Uw splash and I feel its about 5-10% stronger than monoblue post-sideboard. The extra quality that one gets by converting to their Grafdiggers Cage into Rest in Peace is the easiest upgrade for me to point out. We also access to cards like Angels Grace (the only reliable way we can beat Ad Nauseum besides Meddling Mage), and we are able to upgrade our Hurkyl's Recalls into Stony Silence and Kataki, War's Wage. Blood moon is rarely a problem (since I am monoblue game one and only have white in my sideboard, I exclusively fetch into basic islands game one, and when people see this, they side out their blood moons against me). The white splash makes for a resilient deck that can absolutely floor people with the awesome power that a good white hateboard brings to the table.
The green splash gives us Rites of Flourishing (wowza!! turn 3 Time Warp with enough mana to back it up with spell pierce). If I owned Noble Hierarchs I would test it.
For the most part no one (that i know of) is testing the black splash. There is a certain sadistic appeal to planting a Liliana, of the Veil with multiple( at least 2) engines in play, and then going into extra turns stripping their hand with +1's before ulting her repeatedly until they have no cards in hand and only a single land in play before you pass back... but I wouldn't call this strategy overly competitive, as we really could use almost any walker as a possible win con (Vraska? lol).
The Ur splash gives us the tried and true power of Bolt-Snap-Bolt. Truckis got several 5-0 finishes with this more tempo oriented build but i was never able to find success with it. I had problems where I lost all my momentum because we effectively replaced Part the Waterveil with lightning bolt. Losing the extra turns spells gave us more interaction, but I kept having to pass back when I wanted to keep going. Whereas with the U and Uw builds It doesn't really matter if the opposing board gets huge, or if they get most of the way through their gameplan to win, because I know no matter how far behind I fall I will still achieve victory once I start taking extra turns. By removing Part, his build lost its inevitability. Nowadays hes moved on to As Foretold Turns, it is explosive, powerful, and inconsistent.
And a little more recently Chandra, the Mind Sculptor has come to the party. The fact that she effectively only costs 2 mana in the mid and late game makes her an excellent finishing option for us. The fact that she is both a leverage card and a win condition makes her another double duty card for us (like Part the Waterveil and Jace Beleren). This double duty aspect is extremely appealing. Red does let us upgrade our sideboard a little with cards like Vandalblast. So in the near future Ur turns may become much more popular.
Most promise? Some Version of Ur with 2 Chandra, 1 Jace Beleren(maybe), and 2 Part the Waterveils as the wincons. Perhaps with extra velocity from Simian Spirit Guide.
1
I hate to sound like a broken record but here it is again. You need to splash white for actual sideboard hate. The upgrade that the splash will give you will outweigh the drawback of having a mixed land base. For example, it can be clearly seen that Rest in Peace > Grafdigger Cage in most cases.
The best answer I have come up with is to plant a Rest in Peace (this turns off Tarmogoyf and downgrades Traverse), And then follow it up with either a Runed Halo or Gideon's Intervention (naming Death's Shadow). This one-two combo punch should take them straight to scoopsville. They don't usually have ways of answering resolved enchantments.
White also opens up a whole slew of cards like Mirran Crusader. which might not be prefect for our deck, but he blocks Shadows and Tarmogoyfs like no other (and he laughs at Kcommand and Abrupt Decay).
If you insist on not splashing then I would load up on Chalice of the Void, get one set on X=1 and then hope to bounce all of their threats with either Atherize or Displacement Wave. Then watch them not be able to recast them. Hoping to luck into an opening Leyline is not where we want to be. But when it works, it works really, really well.
on a side note lots of Chalices and D-wave might be a viable way to answer lots of deck types not just shadows.
1
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Mystic Gate
9 Island
4 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Howling Mine
4 Serum Visions
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
Stall
3 Gigadrowse
4 Remand
4 Exhaustion
2 Cryptic Command
2 Condescend
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
3 Part the Waterveil
Side
3 Thing in the Ice
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Angel's Grace
2 Rest in Peace
2 Commandeer
2 Kataki, War's Wage
The sideboard is meta dependent and changes constantly.
Recently (the last 2 FNM's)I have been testing Geist of Saint Traft and he has definitely been punching above his weight class. Hexproof makes him almost as good as Indestructible. His drawback of having to attack with only 2 toughness can be mitigated with Exhaustion, Gigadrowse and proper use of Cryptic. Winning on turn 7-ish instead of 11-ish has given me less draws due to time, so for anyone interested in what I've been testing recently:
+3 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Cryptic Command
-2 Condescend
-1 Part the Waterveil
-1 Thassa, God of the Sea
If I keep the Geists permanently, I will probably cut the TiTi's from the side. They are far less needed now than with the original build.
1
To be fair compulsive research IS played in momoblue tron, but if you dont have local monoblue players in your meta you may never see it in modern.
But to futher the point.. for how many turns were you staring at the visions debating on weather to suspend it or hope you will luck into an as fortold so you can finally get value out of it?
Or for how many turns were you staring at the as foretold but were locked into playing on curve and couldn't afford the three mana cause your busy trying to stay alive... if we dont jam it on turn three our next option is what... turn 8? or when we luck into a miracle on turn 5 or after.
None of this sounds very impressive. I have higher hopes for kefnet finding a long term home here and even that is a "if he proves himself" situation