Quote from TheoryCraft »Hey all, still lurking here after my 6-3 Open finish last month with the deck. After taking a short break, I want to start grinding the deck a bit more again. I've noticed a few changes recently with some of the higher placing decks, namely:
-Changing land configuration from 12 fetches and 6 fetchable lands to 11 fetches and 7 fetchable lands (minus a Scalding Tarn and plus a second Blood Crypt - is this to help cast Anger more easily?)
-Running 2 Anger of the Gods sideboard (before was zero or only occasionally)
-Running 2 Liliana, the Last Hope sideboard (before was a 1-of)
-Dropping Collective Brutality from the sideboard (was an auto 2-of inclusion)
-Dropping Surgical Extraction in sideboard (was a fairly regular 1-of)
There's some other changes I've noticed recently (a lot more 4-of Angler; 3 Bolt and 2 Stubborn Denial, 2 Fatal Push) but those topics and trends have been discussed at length in the forum. Just curious what you guys think about the above.
Quote from RMelanson »Re: "Isn't it contradictory to say that you can't find the mana to suspend Ancestral when Search costs two?"
The answer is yes and no. It's more a question of using the mana efficiently and optimally. Breaking down the curve of the deck as it currently stands, there are a lot of 1 drops, few two drops (Terminate, Logic Knot, and Azcanta), and then lots of three and four drops (including Snap-one drop; Snap-two drop). (There is also the consideration of dropping T2 Tasigur, which suspend AV makes more difficult, but not impossible.) The tl;dr is that the deck has a lot of options for Turn 1 play, that gets pushed to Turn 2 if you suspend Visions.
For example, lets say you're on the play, drop land, AV. Then on turn 2, you usually are using only 1 of your two mana, maybe casting Terminate, or just holding up mana for a 2 mana Counterspell. In this scenario, there is a substantial risk of efficiency loss. In contrast, if you react on turn 1 with either a thoughtscour or removal spell, and then hit azcanta on turn 2, then you are using all your mana efficiently. Over the next three turns, you have Azcanta action 3 times, increasing your chance of drawing relevant action. You also have the ability to ramp up mana once you hit 7 in the GY, which can help you use more spells to protect Jace. With AV, you draw additional 3 cards on turn 5, that can vary from very good to lands/fluff. On the draw, both AV and Azcanta can be clunky, but Azcanta at least offers value sooner when you eventually cast it. If you are facing off against an aggro deck for example on the draw, you can T1 hold up Spell Snare or use removal and then drop Azcanta when you have time rather than feeling pot-committed to dropping AV.
This analysis obviously changes based on the meta and how your construct your deck. Imagine a world where BBE is king and the field is just Jund. In that world, at least you can drop AV on the play under your opponents discard. With Azcanta, you just need to pray that your opponent finds Snapcaster or Jace more appealing to take. Or imagine we are in a world of blue decks, AV is nice because on turn 5, you get to ask your opponent, "hey, are you going to counter my Draw 3, or this Jace I will likely play otherwise?" You can also avoid a lot of the choices I mention above by just building different. You could take out Spell Snare to avoid the conflict with AV. You can put in more sweepers to compensate for a slower response and the likely uptick in Lingering Souls. If there is a clear answer (which there probably isn't), its not between choosing bad or good, but more like great or marginally greater (black v. slightly darker black).
Quote from Tiemuuu »My first impression of Jace is that you would need to rework the strategy entirely to make Jace work. I'm pretty sure you would need 4-8 discards spells and Cliques on top of it to be able to land Jace on t4 safely even half of the time.
Quote from Tiemuuu »I agree with your points on Ancestral, but not on cutting Thought Scours and Tasigurs. How is cutting those two cards making the deck any grindier than it was before? Tasigur certainly lets you grind, and Scour gives you more card selection. You're only making the deck more focused on beating fair creature decks and giving up %-points against combo, ramp/big mana, control and burn.
with 3 Cryptics, 2 Jaces and 2 Damnations your curve is looking atrocious. Some of those cards need to be moved to the SB or cut entirely. Of course we're all looking to experiment with Jace, but basic deck building rules suggest this one isn't going to fly.
Quote from Draw_Gone »I'm only running 2 Jace as I think you definitely don't want to go overboard on him and auto lose versus aggro or combo decks. 2 should be sufficient and I'll bump it up to 3 if it becomes necessary.
I think that a Mainboard-Sideboard Jace split will be the norm. Maybe 2-1 or 3-1 (though 2-1 i find more likely). When he is good, he is fantastic, and you'll definitely want 3-4, but when he is bad, he is atrocious. Hedging your bets by giving you the potential of 3-4 Jaces post board, without going all-in on it game 1 might be a plan.
I'm only running 2 Jace as I think you definitely don't want to go overboard on him and auto lose versus aggro or combo decks. 2 should be sufficient and I'll bump it up to 3 if it becomes necessary.
Quote from Ym1r »You can hear his thoughts in the tournament! Link for the deck tech here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/225319761
Btw, 3 grixis control decks with 21+ points in the PT!