- BlackWaltz3
- Registered User
-
Member for 7 years, 2 months, and 26 days
Last active Tue, Apr, 2 2024 10:56:06
- 0 Followers
- 1,134 Total Posts
- 336 Thanks
-
2
Feyd_Ruin posted a message on MtGSalvation Site-Wide Issues CompendiumAirithne, benjameenbear, CavalryWolfpack, Cryogen, Iso, KnickM, Marquisd, and Void_Nothing have all retired to pursue other endeavors.Posted in: Community Discussion -
1
wtwlf123 posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningPosted in: Cube Card and Archetype DiscussionQuote from hoodwink »I mean, "favorite cards" or whatever is way more subjective, since by definition it's nothing but personal opinion. At least P1P1 has some basis in objectivity w/r/t perceived power level.
Correct. But if the goal is obtaining good data, we can get that with asking people their opinions on their favorite cube cards. It's better to ask a subjective question with the goal of obtaining data that can genuinely be answered by it than to ask subjective questions if the goal of obtaining objectively useful data. The voting sample size won't be even remotely large enough for the variance to be ironed out by averages. Not by thousands and thousands of voters. But with peoples favorite cards, the information is honest and equal (and honestly? about a million times more valuable).
Quote from calibretto »And Path should almost definitely be on a top twenty list for white.
Then we're asking the wrong questions. Because if that's making a list of "top P1P1 cards", the data we're getting is pretty meaningless.
Quote from braid of fire »I much prefer "most important to my cube" to "p1p1"
Me too. Everybody can vote, it doesn't matter what metric(s) you use to determine which cards make the list for you, and it doesn't matter what kind of cube you prefer to draft. I'd rather do this and err on the side of inclusivity. -
1
hoodwink posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningPosted in: Cube Card and Archetype DiscussionQuote from wtwlf123 »P1P1 or most powerful or best are all wildly subjective, and completely contingent on the list you're drawing the data from, and the playgroup you're drafting it with.
I mean, "favorite cards" or whatever is way more subjective, since by definition it's nothing but personal opinion. At least P1P1 has some basis in objectivity w/r/t perceived power level.
More to the point, I don't know what the point would be of the project you're proposing. Like, if it's just "I want everyone to know about this cool card", that's fine, but why not just have a big thread about people's pet cards? Or hell, just make an SCD about it. God knows this place could use some more activity outside of spoiler season. But what difference is it to anyone that Parallax Wave and Porphyry Nodes are two of my favorite cards? Who does that help? And why do we need to have a vote on it?
Anyway, if P1P1 is such a difficult thing for people to grok (I really don't think it is, but whatever), it's not hard to come up with a different way of thinking about it. Something like this:
Edit: Calibretto said it better. Would I take Card A over Card B, all else equal.
-
1
Braid of Fire posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningI much prefer "most important to my cube" to "p1p1" since it reflect more of what makes cube cube to me, and also doesn't give weird priority to bombs that may not be super relevant to multiple archetypes.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
1
calibretto posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningI agree that P1P1 is the metric that is easiest to parse. Would I take Card A over Card B? If yes, then rank accordingly. However, the biggest problem with that is the number of true P1P1s in any given color fall off fairly quickly. Maybe there's five or ten white cards that I would realistically take P1P1 given other options, but what does a pack have to look like for me to take Path to Exile over options from other colors (or colorless)? And Path should almost definitely be on a top twenty list for white.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion -
1
hoodwink posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningYeah I agree that Hierarch should be a green card because it's good without being in Bant, whereas Yasova and Alesha are garbage without access to their other color identities so should be considered as wedge/shard cards. Ultimately it's only one card and we really shouldn't spend so much time on it, but without pedantry we wouldn't be cube designers I suppose.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
(BW, this is your project and you're going to be doing the leg work on it. You've already been generously solicitous of everyone's opinion, and we're all dead split on it so you're not going to find consensus. Just tell us what to do with Hierarch and let's all move on.)
I also think a P1P1 (or most powerful, or best) makes the most sense, especially since maximizing power level is the overriding philosophy on this forum. If people want to have an opportunity to highlight their favorite cards or whatever, just add a "Favorite Cards" section of like 5 or something at the end of the real rankings. -
1
Metamind posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningI do not play any shard cards (besides Sphinx of the Steel Wind which is rarely hardcast so might as well be colorless), yet I play Noble Hierarch as a green card.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
I really have two favorite cards lists if we go that route - one as a player and one as a designer. The first includes cards that I like to play personally, and is biased and influenced heavily by the decks I love playing. The second factors more heavily issues like archetype support, playability and balance. For example as I player I value Searing Blaze over Abrade, but as a cube designer it is the opposite.
I suggest that if we do decide to use favorite cards as a criteria, we should be after the second type of list - favorite cards as a cube owner/manager/designer and not as a cube player/drafter. The second is a lot more valuable. Of course our biases as players affects our judgement as designers so it isn't a cut and dry separation. But at a cube manager's perspective we need to cater to many more needs - the likes of several players and the entire environment, which is less prone to outliers.
I still think P1P1 is the better criteria as it is well-defined. Of course it will be different from cube to cube, that is why we do this project. The individual vote doesn't matter that much, it's the aggregates that count. -
1
calibretto posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningI don't think spoiler tags solves the "problem" of people being influenced by other voters' lists. I mean, just open the tag and look at the list. I understand what it's trying to do, but if you really want everyone to be submitting their lists uninfluenced by other lists, then you should do this via PM.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
I also don't think we'll be able to come to a true unanimous agreement on the voting criteria. Even if you tell folks to post their top twenty "most impactful" white cards and everyone agrees on that, you'll still gets posters who interpret that differently. What does impactful really mean in terms of cube? Is Armageddon the white card that's had the most impact on games for me? Does that make it rank higher than Moat or Balance? Maybe I'll just shortcut impactful to mean P1P1 or favorite since these are easier for me to interpret. I don't believe there's really a way to avoid this metric being mostly arbitrary based on the individual posters. -
2
wtwlf123 posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningWhich is fine. But 2 things there. 1st, there's nothing intrinsic about Birds that makes it one specific combination of colors. It's just as good in Bant as it is in Jund. 2nd, we don't have a 5-color section. So just like with Hierarch, it gets classified and voted on in the section that is both included in the cube and included in the voting. Intrinsically, Birds is good in every combination of colors, instead of a specific combination of colors like Hierarch is. It's the same reason that I consider City of Brass to be a colorless card and Azorius Signet to be a W/U card. The former isn't intrinsically bound to a color or combination of colors the way that the latter one is. The only color intrinsically tied to Birds is green.Posted in: Cube Card and Archetype Discussion
The fact that Hierarch is Bant is more meaningful than the fact that phyrexian-mana cards are associated with their respective colors. I can confidently say that Hierarch has meaningfully tapped for W and/or U more often than I've paid W for Legionnaire or U for Metamorph. So the argument that those should be in their respective colored sections but Hierarch should be green makes zero sense to me.
Again, if we weren't voting on Bant, Hierarch should go in green. Since we are though, I think it should go there. There's more meaningful cube cards to vote on in green anyways; I'd rather see what green's 21st card is than what Bant's 4th card is, since that's far less likely to be relevant than the former. -
3
steve_man posted a message on Ranking Project 2019 PlanningPosted in: Cube Card and Archetype DiscussionQuote from wtwlf123 »That always baffles me. Just because the card would still be in the cube if it only tapped for G doesn't mean that its Bant identity doesn't influence the value of the card. There are absolutely decks that I play Hierarch in that would not play a Llanowar Elves.
Noble Hierarch adds value to Bant, sure, but you don't need to be Bant to gain the full value of Noble Hierarch just like I don't need to be 5-color to gain the full value of Birds of Paradise. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1
1
3
Found out the answer and wished I never bothered to investigate.
As to the card, to loosely paraphrase wtwlf, if the body isn't good then it becomes that much more about the effect. Adding flying and a point of toughness does not mitigate the loss of targets for the effect here. A 2/1 here would've been pretty awesome actually. Aw well.
1
B is my favorite. Making it so the B side is only accessible from the grave feels flavorful for a mechanic with this name.
C is just transform for a cost. We've already seen this implementation of transform so there is no reason to call it something new.
1
1
3
1
2
1
Edit: Just want to add that there is nothing mythic about this card except for the fact that it is pushed.