MTG Salvation

Quote from slave »

Quote from thomeyis »

The problem here is that you have to intentionally gimp pretty much anything involving Dream Halls to not make it into an instant infinite combo win.

Exactly. But the thing is, the way the card can be used by everyone does make some games truly interesting, and it also mainly nerfs Eldrazi & some artifact decks, which is a decent reason to play it in my group.

I have a Dream Halls deck I like to play. It's been through quite a few different versions.
In one MP-combo-version I would drop Dream Halls, discard a card to play Conflux, then chain conflux's via Dream Halls to land a pinger like Sulfuric Vortex, then target that with Oblivion Ring and drop Worldfire. Yeah I think I only played that once or twice.

The version I'm playing now is MP-fun focussed. It packs some serious card draw so I can always keep my hand full, a large suite of cheap counter, and packed with blue perms with lots of interaction. I play the deck so noobs can play poor decks, land their over-costed bombs and enjoy learning/playing, while I have fun trolling the better players with my superior card advantage, aiming counter and bounce at everything they do.
Competitive? Not really, but intentionally so.

By the way, Slave, thank you for the feedback. Your post about Dream Halls has me thinking that maybe I can switch this around to make a fun deck that people will get into. It was more constructive than what Prid3 hit me over the head with, which I appreciate. He is right, though, that my deck probably isn't so fun to lose to, so I think a re-think is in order. Do you have any suggestions of the vein of card that would be fun for interactivity when using this? Don't worry, I'm not asking you to design a deck for me, I'll do that myself, just seeing if you have any neat ideas to mull over. Cheers.

Except that I never once said that your card list is more unfair. For clarification, I only said that it's pretty easy to tell that you play in a more competitive meta (which was more of a complement than anything), and that if I went with your cardlist, it would be a totally different deck. That's it. All the rest of your wall of words is you getting into my headspace as if you know what I'm thinking, which I assure you that you don't, reacting to an accusation that was never there. Really what we're at is you sermonizing me for saying what I never said, which I don't appreciate. By the way, speaking of headspace, I read your mana guide. Some good information if you ignore all the snark, condescension, and arrogance. Seriously, what's with the Napolean complex? When you're trying to teach someone something so they can improve their game, don't insult them at the same time and talk down to them...guaranteed they are going to blow you off. Stay out of my headspace, and don't bother interacting with me anymore. I'm not interested in anything you have further to say. And you can quote me on this, because THIS I SAID. Good day.

Quote from thomeyis »

The problem here is that you have to intentionally gimp pretty much anything involving Dream Halls to not make it into an instant infinite combo win. As it is your deck is one Loaming Shaman from being truly infinite. If your goal is to win through Cruel Ultimatum loops as opposed to any other form of combo, then the only things that you can really change are the removal and mana base. Innocent Blood is a no-brainer swap for Diabolic Edict since the only purpose of the card is to keep you alive until turn 5-8(depending on how much your 20-land mana base sets you back). Likewise, all the 1-for-1 removal could be replaced with sweepers. Damnation, Wrath of God, Languish, Chain REaction, Blasphemous Act, etc. are all cards that will give you a real shot at surviving until you hit 5. Then it's just a matter of dropping the halls and winning on the spot, provided no one has a counter for the first Conflux.

That about sums it up. I'm quickly realizing that my jank lies in not keeping up with trends (it's not like I have the budget to do it anyway with all the sets cranking out every month anymore.) So there's not much I can do to change that. It's easier to say "you should do this" than it is to actually afford it. And that's not intended as a slight on anything you said. I appreciate the feedback. Very likely I won't be posting decks further here since I'm hopelessly behind on just about everything players do here. I simply don't have the time or money to spend to "keep up with the Joneses", when most of the changes suggested would run counter to the power levels my group prefers. It's simply not proving to be valuable time spent, but that's certainly not anyone's fault here. Cheers.

I spent some significant time working on this and stalled out for one reason. Points of damage in Magic don't correlate well to HP in D&D. Also, mana is far easier to keep cranking out creatures than what wizards in D&D can do. All you have to do is have unused "talismans" with which to cast your MtG spells, whereas D&D spells are far more restrictive. I was working on a conversion to make that work. Magic would work as done in the card game only when dealing with summoned permanents. When dealing with real world creatures and PCs, the results would be less effective. A summoned creature's toughness and damage might be a d4 dice per point, so a Craw Wurm would deal 6d4 on a hit (with only a single attack), and could take 4d4 damage before it disappeared. A fireball in MtG would deal its damage in d4 per point, so X=10 would be 10d4 points of damage, and then still have to deal with saving throws and such. A MtG mage in D&D would therefore have to take down D&D enemies with a horde of summoned creatures, which would inevitably result in circus players, similar to the Necromancer and Druid in Diablo 2.

Another problem is that even a low-level mage in MtG could have a pouch of talismans and basic mana (harkening back to the original Magic novel Arena). To combat this, I did have a limiter that prevented lower level MtG mages from casting the higher CMC spells because they can only handle so much mana at a single throw, and mana burn was a very real threat if they biffed it up. Even at that, the spells don't scale well by CMC. For example, the most effective counterspell is only two mana, and a team of lesser mages could tie down a single higher-level mage. That then leads to in-game counterspell battles since in-game PCs would realize this inherent strength to counterspells. Swords to Plowshares is truly OP at 1 mana when you can take out a Blightsteel Colossus as a first level mage. See the problem with that fix?

I eventually concluded that the two systems were just too incompatible to spend my time trying to convert, even when using the cards in the game as the "talisman". A great idea, but I just don't see a chance of making it work. If you come up with a great idea, though, please do post it here, as I would be very interested to review the ideas.

I wonder if you are mistaking variants for metas? I think a person's issues with established formats has more to do with unfun and egotistical players and "optimal" cards than the actual format itself at worst, and just people who want to play more competitively at best. As such, people gravitate toward metas where the people more match their temperament, and play cards/formats that match that.

For example, in my group that's been playing together for about 25 years, we deliberately don't get into Standard and Modern because none of us can afford to have a rotating card supply. Well, all but one anyhow. Our decks are extremely non-optimized as a result because we don't keep up with trends. To us we're competitive, but posting several decks here make it obvious I am woefully behind the curve even as the best player in the group, and my decks look janky and terrible judging from a lot of the commentary. Lol, oh well. Nevertheless, variants we use are simply a way of correcting issues we have with a given format. I just posted my group's variant on Emperor games, which I hope you will try out, and simply helps to make all players feel more active and invested in the game. It was a reaction to the Emperors largely being buff spaminators while waiting for one of their wings to die (boring and morbid at the same time). Our 2HG variant doesn't adhere totally to that format, either. Having said that, we probably wouldn't play much different decks or cards regardless of whether we use the established rules or homebrew rules. We would still use janky underpowered cards either way.

It's possible I'm just misunderstanding you, and please forgive me if I did.

Your feedback tells me that you play in a far-more competitive and optimized meta. The differences in people's metas is one of the shortfalls of posting decks online since a less-competitive meta makes the decks look like Neanderthal stuff to people in more competitive metas. In any case your feedback is relevant and perfectly fair, so please don't take that as a criticism...it's not meant as such. I'm cool with it. Thijs1301's comment would certainly be true if I made those changes you suggested...my friends wouldn't stand a chance, which would then make the deck really boring. Cheers.

As for mana, I've not experienced the constant shortfalls when testing, or at least I play in a meta where a turn of delay now and then doesn't immediately mean a lost game. If I did, or if I do in the future, then I'd make adjustments.

I wonder if it needs more card draw to make it run though

I find that I have not had problems getting the right cards in hand when I'm ready to cast the Dream Halls. At that point, I only need one Conflux in hand and a single pitch card to kick off the win because I keep bringing more cards into hand with successively searched Confluxes. I also draw tons of cards as I drop the Cruel Ultimatums. I could use Enter the Infinite and Laboratory Maniac as Prid3 suggested, but then that would be a completely different deck.

So leaving out the card choices even though what you suggested is totally valid since I own some of them, I'm more getting at the point with this thread that much of the criticism on this deck from other sites is the goodstuff.dec cards I had, especially tutors. With the tutors I can keep Thopter Foundry and Dark Depths combos in the deck and reliably get them. The Foundry is always my best combo if I get it out, especially in the presence of Gaea's Cradle and Xenagos.

Judging by what you are saying, at least how I'm reading it, is that I should put back in the cards that make the deck explosive and not worry so much about it. Is that correct to say that? The interesting thing is that my friends have said they don't mind me having the tutors...it's me that's worrying that I'm going in with too powerful of a deck versus the power levels in my friends' decks. I mean, this is a format that's supposed to be casual, which is why so many rail against goodstuff.dec cards in the format.

However, Skullclamp and Beastmaster Ascension are great suggestions that I will use. Beastmaster Ascension will take the place of Leonin Sunstandard, as I don't get enough white mana on the table to outpace the Ascension on buffing. I forgot that card existed and it's perfect. I also had Doubling Season, and Aura Shards in there, too, which can easily go back in. Although Cathars' Crusade is the bomb, and would quickly put this deck into the stratosphere, counters on tokens in the quantity and variety I play with is a Doctorate's level of complexity that frankly makes my head hurt too much. Great card, so not worth the math, though. I took out Ajani Goldmane for the same reason.

Yeah, I always run light in the mana department, but I restrict my mana curves pretty tightly to keep things flowing at a good pace. Making some of your suggested changes would really inflate the mana curve (namely Chain Reaction). By keeping B.Act, I can cast for 1, give indestructible, and still likely cast a second one for three (assuming my creatures), costing a minimum of 6 mana, which is reasonable. Chain Reaction blows that out of the water, and is also not very available, even online. It's very popular for obvious reasons, lol. The other reason is tempo. For example, I can cast Aurelia, attack with enough to trigger indestructible with Battalion, and still squeeze off a 1 mana B.Act. I've tested both blast spells extensively, and the deck really seems to click better with the B.Act.

I do love the Soulfire Grand Master idea, though. I'll have to strongly consider him instead of Figure of Destiny. Not sure how I feel about the Izzit colors, though. Call it Vorthos thing I guess, but I will think about that, because that looks stellar. One of the reasons for keeping mostly dual R/W creatures, however, is to get max buff from Balefire Liege and swing like it's actually Boros to the core. I do get the combo ramifications of your suggestions, and they are very fine suggestions at that. Thanks!

Named after Jamie Hyneman's Blendo robot in Robot Wars (Youtube the video if you've never seen it), it literally dices up people in rather dramatic fashion. I've wanted to play Boros for some time to utilize the power of Lightning Helix, but thought Boros was rather boring as a guild until I saw the Boros Reckoner. I immediately thought "now this is a card I can build around." With his fellow Spitemare and Mogg Maniac, that gives a mass-blast spell a lot of power to hammer opponents. So rather than compromise and play with one strategy or the other, I got greedy and crammed both Lightning Helix tricks and damage blasters into one single deck. Lightning Helix, Firemane Avenger, and Balefire Liege cram all the helix damage you could want, and Blasphemous Act kicks off the party with eight means of protecting my troops from the hell I unleash. "Blendo" as a name just seemed right.

For awhile, I actually took Blendo into a Rakdos approach with Massacre Wurm, Hissing Iguanar, Deathgreeter, Twilight's Call and the Blasphemous Act with the damage flingers. Rakdos certainly allowed for way more damage overall, but using Boros in a Rakdos deck just didn't feel right. I took it back to the original decklist under the Boros banner. Also, I wanted to use the Spark Trooper playset in my elemental deck. Simply put, I use my Reckoner creatures (Reckoner, Spitemare, and Mogg Maniac) as rattlesnakes to cast a creature front. Once I have enough, I cast the Blasphemous Act after I give my side indestructible. If I have the mana and a second Act, then I set it off twice in the same turn. I kill as many people as that allows (13 damage per damage flinger is pretty severe), taking out the biggest player threats first. Then I go bonkers swinging through with my battalion and helix hijinks while I have board dominance. Once I torch it off, I've declared war on everyone at the same time, so I'm playing as aggresively as I can to finish it out. In that regard, it plays a lot like a typical 1v1 Boros deck that always swings with everything every turn, just with tactical nukes at the start to kick it off.

What do you think?

Homebrewed Emperor's rules

Shortly after the Emperor's rules were introduced, my friends and I decided that the format was too booooorinnnnnng...at least for the Emperors. Our biggest criticism is that the two people in the center really had very little to do until one of their wings died, which was just not fun for all involved. To solve that, we made some very simple rule changes. Doing so not only sparked a lot of fun (and remains our favorite MP game to this day) because half of the people win every game, but everyone is active through the whole game.

Rule changes:
1. All wing spells, global effects, and creature abilities have a range of 2, instead of 1. This matches what an Emperor has range on. If a wing plays Damnation, it will hit all five players within range, but not the wing on the far side, so globals like sweepers are best used by the Emperor to take out both enemy wing's creatures. Sometimes, that means that a wing burns out the opposing Emperor with a fast red deck, but at least you get to the next game quicker. Most of the time, it's still wings that do the killing of the opposing Emperor by taking out the other wing first.

2. All marching creatures stay under the control of the player that cast them. This means that the Emperor retains control of his own creatures, or also a wing that marches his creatures over to other team mates's territories. Because really, would anyone think that an Emperor would ever give up control of his personal troops? That's just silly. This ensures the Emperor has an active stake in the game with his creatures. The marching is done during combat. A marching creature remains untapped and so can block, but a march takes the place of any attack during that turn, even if that creature has haste. So a creature can't march and attack in the same turn, even if there are multiple attacks in the same turn. Think of it as being tired after a forced march. A creature with haste, however, can march the same turn it is cast. Example: Nether Shadow is cast. It can immediately (during combat) march one position into another player's territory.

3. Any creature in another player's territory attacks during the controller's turn, not the player's territory that it is in. Example: The Neither Shadow that marched the previous turn can now attack when the Emperor next has a combat phase, not when the wing attacks. The Emperor, or any wing that has creatures marched over to another player's territory can attack from multiple zones at the same time. Example: if an Emperor that has creatures in both of his wing's territories attacks, he can attack with his creatures from one or both territories at the same time.

4. When a player dies, all permanents in his territory disappear, even permanents from another player that were positioned in the space via marching or other reasons. This just adds some intrigue to when/if the Emperor pulls out his support to a dying wing. If the wing dies before the Emperor marches his creatures back, the Emperor risks losing a lot of board position and resources when that wing dies. Example: That same Nether Shadow is still in the wing's territory when the wing dies. The Nether Shadow is placed into the owner's graveyard. Also, the Grafted Wargear on the Nether Shadow also goes to the owner's graveyard. Additionally, the creature stolen with a Control Magic also dies and goes to that owner's graveyard, as well as the Control Magic aura.

5. Equipment and auras that attach to creatures that have been marched to another player's territory are also in the territory with that creature. Don't want your Umezawa's Jitte brought into range of the opposing Emperor's removal spells? Don't attach it to a creature in your wing's territory. If the creature dies, the equipment "falls" into that player's territory. To remove it back to your home territory requires attaching it to another creature in your home territory.

6. If an Emperor takes control of an enemy's creature (say with Control Magic), it only goes into the nearest allied territory (your wing), but it still has summoning sickness as normal unless it has haste. In the case of a creature stolen that has haste, that creature could turn around and immediately attack the enemy adjacent. Example: An Emperor uses Sarkhan Vol to steal a wing's creature. It goes into the Emperor's wing's territory and can attack the opposing wing because Sarkhan gives that stolen creature haste.

7. If a player uses an ability like Desertion or Villainous Wealth, any card brought into play goes to that player's home territory as if it was cast.

8. If a player blinks a creature, it reappears in the space it left, even if in another allied player's territory. It doesn't immediately travel back to the home territory. Marching still has to occur for that to happen. (sorry, no teleportation allowed.)

9. There can be some weird interactions like Fog from time to time. Example: I cast Fog as the left wing while the enemy wing on the far side of the table is attacking my allied right wing. It doesn't affect that enemy wing, but it does reach my allied right wing with the range of 2. That wing's creatures neither deal nor receive combat damage, so even though the Fog doesn't directly affect the enemy creatures, the effect is still the same. Another example we've run into is if I (as a wing) cast Lightning Bolt at the opposing Emperor and his wing on the extreme other side of the table gives the Emperor hexproof with an effect. Even though he could not normally affect my bolt, he can affect his Emperor and the bolt will fizzle. If that is not acceptable, the group should just agree to a mod to this house rule.

There will inevitably be some discussion and disagreement from your group on particular cards, as these guidelines can't possibly handle all the cases. We still argue over exact interpretations all the time. But, this should give you a good start on making Emperor's games fun for everyone, even the Emperors.

Let me know what you think...we love this variant, and I hope you like it, too.

A number of years ago, I was reading stuff on the Wizards of the Coast articles, and ran across a decklist that took advantage of the un-restricting of Dream Halls. Using Show and Tell to cast Dream Halls, then cast Conflux. From there, it was three Cruel Ultimatums and one Bogardan Hellkite to victory. Aside from Show and Tell, he protected his position with Force of Will, so this was a very spendy deck, but was capable of winning turn one. In fact, it apparently did so often that he swept that major tournament with this very off-beat deck. I set out to build that same deck in multi-player format, but the protection cards were too expensive, so it sat dormant for a long time. Although I came up with a cardlist that would allow me to kill up to twelve people (without going infinite), it would be too fragile to disenchanting from that many players without expensive counters. I would then, of course, promptly be squished as every combo player that fails should be. I could protect my position, but the cards were too costly.

Then, recently, it hit me. Instead of using the cards that force me to spend my life's savings to win first turn, I could instead play defensive until the mana catches up to cast Dream Halls, which freed up a lot of the expensive cards slots for cheap spot removal cards. Although I was still vulnerable to disenchanting, I made the decision to limit the deck to games like 2HG, 2v2, 1v1, Emperor's, and other smaller formats to limit the vulnerability to an acceptable level. What you see below is the result. I can kill two players with just recycling the Ultimatums, though that draws most of the rest of my deck. To kill another player, I use Where Ancients Tread and the Maelstrom Archangels after using the angels to keep casting the ultimatums (which then come back to my hand ready for another go.)

If that hasn't killed everyone, I only have the four creatures to attack with during regular turns, and any remaining Lightning Helixes, because the deck has been hemorrhaged to the point that it's functionally useless. I realize there are plenty of recycling options, but I'm only looking to kill so many people anyway. The two times I've played so far (Grad school is killing my free time), it has won. It remains to be seen if it can keep wins coming once my group has gotten the hang of how the deck works enough to attack it. I know there are far more efficient killers out there (such as infinite loops into a storm finisher for one), and I can add a storm finisher if I want, but the point of this deck is to build an MP-combo killer that doesn't rely on infinite recursion and the storm card isn't really needed at this time. Admittedly, it's a very Rube Goldberg machine-ish way to kill someone, but I wanted to adopt this really cool tournament engine into casual play, and I'm totally willing to lose when they can stop me. What do you think?

This deck uses Sliver Queen as a Commander in a token deck. It has resisted attempts to take some of the goodstuff out, and I've just accepted that it has hard tutors that search for stuff that don't stop other people from playing their strategies.

Edit: 2/26/17 made some changes, below is current list.