After having read all the comments from the last few days, I have to admit that I really like the idea of the 3rd Ooze in the sideboard. I would have never come to that idea by myself, but that's the advantage of discussing in a forum like this.
Anyway, here is my updated decklist, which I will be playing tomorrow:
If I see an uptick in Humans, I will add a 2nd Lavamancer to the sideboard instead of the Last Hope.
Artifact decks are not played an awful lot at my store currently, but I will always respect these decks. Therefore I am not going to cut a Grudge anytime soon.
I have been playing with 2 Spellbombs for quite some time now and they have never disappointed me. Leyline is a card I have not been a big fan of outside
Legacy.
Regarding the Treetop Village: You are probably right, I just want to test some more "extreme" things with my mana base in order to see how far it can be stretched. But like I said, I also prefer only having 3 ETB lands. I am still unsure though whether a 2nd Forest or a 9th Fetchland would be the better configuration.
I also have the feeling that we are getting closer in terms of a so called "centralized" Jund decklist. But we still play a midrange deck that has to be adjusted to your local meta. All we can do is creating the correct framework for the new era of modern.
About the 2nd Terminate: I would love to play it, but probably not instead of an Ooze. I just like having a plethora of creatures in the deck, because you steadily want to attack with a deck like Jund. Sitting behind with only reactive spells will lose you the game eventually, we are not a pure control deck, especially against control and ramp decks. For the 2nd Terminate I would probably cut The Last Hope from my mainboard. Yes, Liliana seems to do so many more things than a single removal spell, but sometimes you simply need an all-catch answer instead of a clunky PW. That might also be the reason why I am against a 2nd K-Command for now: It can be amazing against certain decks, and it is one of the best cascade targets, but often it is only "cute" if you understand what I mean. A 3rd Ooze and a 2nd Terminate are more conservative, but probably also more solid choices than a clunky 3 mana removal spell.
But I would like to hear your detailed reasoning behind the second Command. Maybe I just need to get other opinions in order to get different views on a card I am currently not keen on playing a second copy of.
Edit:
Yeah, EE and Charm are mainly for my local meta, as Mardu Pyro and Bogles are well represented. Hazoret is a card I will try out without any doubt, but I am currently also considering a single Tracker or Kalitas in the board.
@Ayiluss: I am currently playing the exact same mainboard as @lowekevin123 except for the one Treetop Village, with my sideboard being slightly different:
Here are some thoughts about the current configuration:
- 4 Manlands in a 24-lands build: This might turn out to be too greedy, but I want to experiment with it. I don't like going below 3 Ravines, not only because it is a very good manland in the lategame, but also because the colorfixing it provides is better than the one of Treetop Village. Treetop Village might end up becoming a 4th Mire or a 2nd Forest. When playing 25 lands, I would definitely play at least one Treetop Village.
- 2x Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75: This is mainly a meta choice for my local store, as there are so many matchups where she shines. Cutting one of them is totally reasonable.
- Outside the 31 core spells of the deck (The creatures, 4 LotV and the 12 one cmc spells) there are 5 cards you can include in the deck (4 if you play 25 lands). That's an incredible low number for all the Decays, K-Commands, Terminates and Pulses we would like to play and this is also the reason why there seems to be always a couple of cards too much (like you mentioned). Therefore I decided to include each one a single time. Why? Delver mentioned it some pages back if I remember correctly: Decay, Pulse, Kolaghan's Command and Terminate together form a playset of very flexible removals. I don't see them as one-offs, but rather regard them as a unity. You can of course play 2 Commands and 2 Pulses, but that would mean giving up on Terminate and Decay which I personally do not like.
Just curious what you meant by saying that we want somewhere between 15-18 1 cmc spells? Does this include the sideboard?
- 24 vs 25 lands will probably end up in personal preference and individual lists: I see an average of 24.5 lands in Jund decks currently and it mainly depends on how low your manacurve is.
- I don't like the Basic Mountain. At all. It is a horrible card in the opener, a bad basic land against Blood Moon decks and matters only against decks which play a playset of Field of Ruin.
- Red is for a reason our tertiary color. It is the color your opponents will try to cut you off with FoR and Spreading Seas most often and will also cost you the most when fetching it (without Basic Mountain), therefore I like the approach I currently see by some pros (including Jadine Klomparens): Cut 1 Kolaghan's Command, probably also make an even 3/3 split of Bolt/Push. I don't like to shave Terminate though, as I believe it is a too important card against Eldrazi decks and other high cmc creature-based matchups like Hollow One, DS, etc. I want my Jund deck to be BG with the added benefit of the best red spells available (that's why I also dislike double red spells like Anger of the Gods, they are very often extremely hard to cast). I also believe Dreadbore is not good enough.
- 3 Oozes is where I currently want to be. Ooze is a fantastic card in the mirror, against aggro decks and against all gy-based decks. Going down on 2 Oozes also means cutting a threat when needing a clock, something I do not like to do.
- 12 one cmc spells is probably the way to go: Playing Jund without being able to cast a spell on the first turn of the game is a big disadvantage against basically all strategies in current modern. I want a discard on turn 1 in order to protect Goyf/Bob on turn 2 against some decks, I want to be able to kill a creature on turn 1 in order to apply pressure with my own creatures against other decks. I also prefer the 4/2 split of IoK/Thoughtseize, not yet entirely sold on the Bolt/Push split but I am currently trying to play 3/3.
- BBE is a busted card of Magic. Up until the unban, Jund was a solid deck until turn 3, but other decks started to do unfair things in the midgame and Jund couldn't cope with it. BBE is amazing in mid- and lategame and makes the deck a tier 1 strategy again. The card is so strong, that trying to build the deck around her (like we tried at the beginning, and rightly so) is not worth it, as she simply performs without much help. That's why we also see her in so many decks where she is just "good", not excellent, for example RG Eldrazi or Ponza.
I am still unsure about Liliana, the Last Hope in the mainboard and the split between manlands, but there might not be the one way to do it so it is probably a meta decision whether to play The Last Hope in the mainboard or not. I like Treetop Village because of the low activation cost, the Trample ability and the solid body, but it's mana ability is quite a disadvantage in some situations.
Defeated Titanshift (2-1), Mono G-Tron (2-1), UW Control (2-1) and Burn in the final (2-0).
Liked the current configuration of creatures. I have tried Snapcaster in the past instead of Grim Flayer but Flayer does so much work, especially post-board.
Abrade is just a more versatile Grudge and very strong against Humans and Hollow One.
Possible future changes: -1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope: The deck tends to struggle against small creature strategies preboard and the Last Hope is good against them and also amazing in attrition-based matchups.
I will also probably swap Ranger with Hostage Taker and add 1 additional Battle Rage to the board against all unfair strategies and Burn/Humans.
Ceremonious Rejection is also a card I am currently considering, but don't yet know what to cut for.
Got absolutely wrecked today:
1-2 vs Ponza
0-2 vs UW Control
0-2 vs Bogles
I won the first game versus Ponza thanks to a 9/9 Ooze which he had to block every turn before I was able to assign lethal damage. Game 2 and 3 he had Blood Moon on turn 2 and I got destroyed. I can't see how people used this card in Jund's sideboard, Blood Moon is an incredibly efficient card against the deck. Didn't help that I only drew Mires and lost with 2 BBE's in hand. Again, I stay with my opinion (even If i am alone), but this matchup is bad for Jund.
First game against UW control was a pure grind fest: He eventually finished me with a Collonade. Game two my hand was Cliffs, Ravine, Liliana of the Veil, Dark Confidant (2), IOK and Abrupt Decay. I dind't draw my third land until turn 5 and loose again.
In round 3 Bogles did the Bogles things and finished the game t4 without me having any chance of interacting. Game 2 I keep a hand full of IOK and Bobs and got blown away by a turn 0 Leyline (his only apparently, after a mull to 6). He then played a Bogle into double Ethereal Armor into Rancor and it was over from there.
0-3, won a single game out of 7. Feels pretty bad.
5 discards weren't enough against the Ponza player as I saw too few in my early turns to prevent a t2 Blood Moon. Can't blame myself for the loss vs UW because I play 25 lands in order to not get screwed. I don't care about that Bogles game too much tbh because at 0-2 I just wanted to stop playing for today.
1. Kill their creatures on either your turn or at the end of their turn.
2. I would bring in probably 2 Fulminators, Grudge is also not too bad because you can kill their manland (which we struggle the most) and Spellskites.
3. Depends on how many removal spells you play. Without Push the matchup is harder, no doubt, but Jund was favoured vs Infect before the printing of Push already. A higher curve with 4 4-drops is obviously not ideal against aggressive decks like Infect. I can see myself boarding out BBE in that matchup. Again, board in everything that can interact with their hand or board. Brutality is an allstar against Infect.
4. Given that he is tapped out I don't think you made a heavy mistake in that scenario. You could have killed both his creatures without taking damage even with your op having 1 Mutagenic in hand, so I don't think this was too greedy. The chances of him having two of them were very slim and sometimes you must take a risk in magic.
Here is what I would have probably done: Op attackes with 2 creatures, is tapped out and has no cards in hand. I say no blocks, damage resolves and I go to 9 Infect. Post combat I activate Lavamancer to kill 1 of his manlands, cast K-command to Shatter the other one and let him discard. He now has 1 card in hand and 1 remaining manland. On my next turn I cast Lili and activate +1. He is hellbent with us still being able to activate Lavamancer's ability. If op draws a pump spell he got us, but I don't see a line how we could survive if he draws another pump spell.
What's the best line depends on opponent's hand and 2 Mutagenic Growths are a very unlikely scenario. So this would have probably been one of the rare situations where a removal in combat made sense imo. A very difficult decision indeed and again, I don't think you made a heavy mistake.
About playable creatures, just read the wonderful primer that Flying Delver wrote. If the creature isn't listed there, you can assume she isn't good enough.
I am also not a big fan of Hazoret in the board, especially now that BBE has taken that 4cmc slot, and I don't want more than 4 cards that cost 4 mana.
Regarding the second Last Hope in the board, I am also still unsure about it. Grim Lavamancer and Last Hope combined take the slot of a wipe in my board, I just think they are more versatile than something like Anger. If I had to take out Last Hope from my board I feel like I would need some kind of sweeper against Mardu or small creature strategies, but as of now, with Lili and Lavamancer I never really missed the days of Anger (apart from the Hollow One/Dredge matchup).
Grixis is without a doubt the most difficult Control deck to beat. It might sound controversial because I am not a big fan of the card in our sb, but Surgical Extraction is a powerhouse against them. Yes this matchup is all about attrition and Surgical is usually a very bad card in these kind of matchups but taking their K-command or Snap is basically game over. Inifnite loops of Snap into K-command is usually unbeatable for us unless we have several threats on the board which is unusual against Grixis.
Thing is, I don't think the matchup got worse for us since the unbanning, but it was already very bad before. There was just nobody playing the deck apart from Corey.
If I saw Grixis on a regular basis, I would think about adding 1 additional Finks or a Hazoret to the sb.
Anyway, here is my updated decklist, which I will be playing tomorrow:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalker: 5
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells: 17
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
If I see an uptick in Humans, I will add a 2nd Lavamancer to the sideboard instead of the Last Hope.
Artifact decks are not played an awful lot at my store currently, but I will always respect these decks. Therefore I am not going to cut a Grudge anytime soon.
I have been playing with 2 Spellbombs for quite some time now and they have never disappointed me. Leyline is a card I have not been a big fan of outside
Legacy.
I also have the feeling that we are getting closer in terms of a so called "centralized" Jund decklist. But we still play a midrange deck that has to be adjusted to your local meta. All we can do is creating the correct framework for the new era of modern.
About the 2nd Terminate: I would love to play it, but probably not instead of an Ooze. I just like having a plethora of creatures in the deck, because you steadily want to attack with a deck like Jund. Sitting behind with only reactive spells will lose you the game eventually, we are not a pure control deck, especially against control and ramp decks. For the 2nd Terminate I would probably cut The Last Hope from my mainboard. Yes, Liliana seems to do so many more things than a single removal spell, but sometimes you simply need an all-catch answer instead of a clunky PW. That might also be the reason why I am against a 2nd K-Command for now: It can be amazing against certain decks, and it is one of the best cascade targets, but often it is only "cute" if you understand what I mean. A 3rd Ooze and a 2nd Terminate are more conservative, but probably also more solid choices than a clunky 3 mana removal spell.
But I would like to hear your detailed reasoning behind the second Command. Maybe I just need to get other opinions in order to get different views on a card I am currently not keen on playing a second copy of.
Edit:
Yeah, EE and Charm are mainly for my local meta, as Mardu Pyro and Bogles are well represented. Hazoret is a card I will try out without any doubt, but I am currently also considering a single Tracker or Kalitas in the board.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers: 5
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells: 16
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
Here are some thoughts about the current configuration:
- 4 Manlands in a 24-lands build: This might turn out to be too greedy, but I want to experiment with it. I don't like going below 3 Ravines, not only because it is a very good manland in the lategame, but also because the colorfixing it provides is better than the one of Treetop Village. Treetop Village might end up becoming a 4th Mire or a 2nd Forest. When playing 25 lands, I would definitely play at least one Treetop Village.
- 2x Liliana, the Last Hope in the 75: This is mainly a meta choice for my local store, as there are so many matchups where she shines. Cutting one of them is totally reasonable.
- Outside the 31 core spells of the deck (The creatures, 4 LotV and the 12 one cmc spells) there are 5 cards you can include in the deck (4 if you play 25 lands). That's an incredible low number for all the Decays, K-Commands, Terminates and Pulses we would like to play and this is also the reason why there seems to be always a couple of cards too much (like you mentioned). Therefore I decided to include each one a single time. Why? Delver mentioned it some pages back if I remember correctly: Decay, Pulse, Kolaghan's Command and Terminate together form a playset of very flexible removals. I don't see them as one-offs, but rather regard them as a unity. You can of course play 2 Commands and 2 Pulses, but that would mean giving up on Terminate and Decay which I personally do not like.
Just curious what you meant by saying that we want somewhere between 15-18 1 cmc spells? Does this include the sideboard?
- 24 vs 25 lands will probably end up in personal preference and individual lists: I see an average of 24.5 lands in Jund decks currently and it mainly depends on how low your manacurve is.
- I don't like the Basic Mountain. At all. It is a horrible card in the opener, a bad basic land against Blood Moon decks and matters only against decks which play a playset of Field of Ruin.
- Red is for a reason our tertiary color. It is the color your opponents will try to cut you off with FoR and Spreading Seas most often and will also cost you the most when fetching it (without Basic Mountain), therefore I like the approach I currently see by some pros (including Jadine Klomparens): Cut 1 Kolaghan's Command, probably also make an even 3/3 split of Bolt/Push. I don't like to shave Terminate though, as I believe it is a too important card against Eldrazi decks and other high cmc creature-based matchups like Hollow One, DS, etc. I want my Jund deck to be BG with the added benefit of the best red spells available (that's why I also dislike double red spells like Anger of the Gods, they are very often extremely hard to cast). I also believe Dreadbore is not good enough.
- 3 Oozes is where I currently want to be. Ooze is a fantastic card in the mirror, against aggro decks and against all gy-based decks. Going down on 2 Oozes also means cutting a threat when needing a clock, something I do not like to do.
- 12 one cmc spells is probably the way to go: Playing Jund without being able to cast a spell on the first turn of the game is a big disadvantage against basically all strategies in current modern. I want a discard on turn 1 in order to protect Goyf/Bob on turn 2 against some decks, I want to be able to kill a creature on turn 1 in order to apply pressure with my own creatures against other decks. I also prefer the 4/2 split of IoK/Thoughtseize, not yet entirely sold on the Bolt/Push split but I am currently trying to play 3/3.
- BBE is a busted card of Magic. Up until the unban, Jund was a solid deck until turn 3, but other decks started to do unfair things in the midgame and Jund couldn't cope with it. BBE is amazing in mid- and lategame and makes the deck a tier 1 strategy again. The card is so strong, that trying to build the deck around her (like we tried at the beginning, and rightly so) is not worth it, as she simply performs without much help. That's why we also see her in so many decks where she is just "good", not excellent, for example RG Eldrazi or Ponza.
I am still unsure about Liliana, the Last Hope in the mainboard and the split between manlands, but there might not be the one way to do it so it is probably a meta decision whether to play The Last Hope in the mainboard or not. I like Treetop Village because of the low activation cost, the Trample ability and the solid body, but it's mana ability is quite a disadvantage in some situations.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
Noncreature Spells: 29
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Dismember
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Fatal Push
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Golgari Charm
2 Delay
2 Abrade
1 Godless Shrine
Defeated Titanshift (2-1), Mono G-Tron (2-1), UW Control (2-1) and Burn in the final (2-0).
Liked the current configuration of creatures. I have tried Snapcaster in the past instead of Grim Flayer but Flayer does so much work, especially post-board.
Abrade is just a more versatile Grudge and very strong against Humans and Hollow One.
Possible future changes: -1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope: The deck tends to struggle against small creature strategies preboard and the Last Hope is good against them and also amazing in attrition-based matchups.
I will also probably swap Ranger with Hostage Taker and add 1 additional Battle Rage to the board against all unfair strategies and Burn/Humans.
Ceremonious Rejection is also a card I am currently considering, but don't yet know what to cut for.
1-2 vs Ponza
0-2 vs UW Control
0-2 vs Bogles
I won the first game versus Ponza thanks to a 9/9 Ooze which he had to block every turn before I was able to assign lethal damage. Game 2 and 3 he had Blood Moon on turn 2 and I got destroyed. I can't see how people used this card in Jund's sideboard, Blood Moon is an incredibly efficient card against the deck. Didn't help that I only drew Mires and lost with 2 BBE's in hand. Again, I stay with my opinion (even If i am alone), but this matchup is bad for Jund.
First game against UW control was a pure grind fest: He eventually finished me with a Collonade. Game two my hand was Cliffs, Ravine, Liliana of the Veil, Dark Confidant (2), IOK and Abrupt Decay. I dind't draw my third land until turn 5 and loose again.
In round 3 Bogles did the Bogles things and finished the game t4 without me having any chance of interacting. Game 2 I keep a hand full of IOK and Bobs and got blown away by a turn 0 Leyline (his only apparently, after a mull to 6). He then played a Bogle into double Ethereal Armor into Rancor and it was over from there.
0-3, won a single game out of 7. Feels pretty bad.
5 discards weren't enough against the Ponza player as I saw too few in my early turns to prevent a t2 Blood Moon. Can't blame myself for the loss vs UW because I play 25 lands in order to not get screwed. I don't care about that Bogles game too much tbh because at 0-2 I just wanted to stop playing for today.
2. I would bring in probably 2 Fulminators, Grudge is also not too bad because you can kill their manland (which we struggle the most) and Spellskites.
3. Depends on how many removal spells you play. Without Push the matchup is harder, no doubt, but Jund was favoured vs Infect before the printing of Push already. A higher curve with 4 4-drops is obviously not ideal against aggressive decks like Infect. I can see myself boarding out BBE in that matchup. Again, board in everything that can interact with their hand or board. Brutality is an allstar against Infect.
4. Given that he is tapped out I don't think you made a heavy mistake in that scenario. You could have killed both his creatures without taking damage even with your op having 1 Mutagenic in hand, so I don't think this was too greedy. The chances of him having two of them were very slim and sometimes you must take a risk in magic.
Here is what I would have probably done: Op attackes with 2 creatures, is tapped out and has no cards in hand. I say no blocks, damage resolves and I go to 9 Infect. Post combat I activate Lavamancer to kill 1 of his manlands, cast K-command to Shatter the other one and let him discard. He now has 1 card in hand and 1 remaining manland. On my next turn I cast Lili and activate +1. He is hellbent with us still being able to activate Lavamancer's ability. If op draws a pump spell he got us, but I don't see a line how we could survive if he draws another pump spell.
What's the best line depends on opponent's hand and 2 Mutagenic Growths are a very unlikely scenario. So this would have probably been one of the rare situations where a removal in combat made sense imo. A very difficult decision indeed and again, I don't think you made a heavy mistake.
Regarding the second Last Hope in the board, I am also still unsure about it. Grim Lavamancer and Last Hope combined take the slot of a wipe in my board, I just think they are more versatile than something like Anger. If I had to take out Last Hope from my board I feel like I would need some kind of sweeper against Mardu or small creature strategies, but as of now, with Lili and Lavamancer I never really missed the days of Anger (apart from the Hollow One/Dredge matchup).
Thing is, I don't think the matchup got worse for us since the unbanning, but it was already very bad before. There was just nobody playing the deck apart from Corey.
If I saw Grixis on a regular basis, I would think about adding 1 additional Finks or a Hazoret to the sb.