Im building two decks to playtest for GP San Antonio, I was leaning towards 8Rack and Merfolk, but am not completely decided yet. I was thinking about possibly playing this instead of 8rack, how does this deck fair in a random meta?
Lantern is strong in a diverse meta because it has the tools to tear apart and defend against any deck possible inside the modern cardpool. If you want to succeed playing it, though, you need to be able to quickly assess your opponent's game plan and make a few extremely narrow decisions to shut it down ASAP because the deck does not forgive small mistakes. What to tutor, what to needle, what modes to brutality with, your sequencing etc. You have to be able to make all these decisions perfectly and quickly. Lantern is probably not a deck to try learning on short notice, but if you have the time go for it.
I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
Life from the loam is more a different crucible than a worse crucible. The upside is you can mill into it fearlessly and have it available, and it can generate enough ghost quarters to accomplish the same effects. However, it can't be tutored or ruined (although it self recurs) and more importantly it forces you to skip your draws to keep up the gq spam, meaning you can't flip yourself into important reactive spells at the same time. I'd rather have crucible than lftl most of the time for the added safety, but the dredge can potentially flip you into more mill rocks faster and find you ruins more easily if you aren't worried about needing to extract/ decay/ thoughtseize or something or you can afford to leave bridge on one or two.
I didn't give up on the writing down my opening hand; what i'm trying now is to write down my cards as i play them, instead of all in the beginning of the game. This has worked quite well in goldfishing, so i'm hoping it'll prove its worth in the tournament tonight.
How do you meaningfully goldfish lantern? I've always thought of that as moot because your plays are so dependent on interaction with the opponent and because the decisions you would make in the interest of racing the lock down as fast as possible are too disconnected and obvious to be worth practicing.
It might be a sideboard one or two of as an alternative to tezzeret, I don't think two can fit in the maindeck and I'm uncomfortable running only 1 because it can't be tutored in that list.
- All or some of those Battle atthe Bridge prolly need to be collective brutalities;
- Echoing Truth is our blue go-to enchantment removal, just time it right with a discardspell;
- What are all the Baubles bringing to the table?
-The extra lifegain and cheaper cast on bridge can be relevant as can the ability to nail huge creatures outside the range of brutality. I think some mix of the two is appropriate.
-Crexalbo recommended set adrift: Holy crap on a crutch this is the blue decay I've been missing. I'll have to find room for this somewhere. Definitely like that idea more than truth.
-Baubles give you dig, consistency, rock count for improvise/metalcraft, fodder for thopters and can act like lanterns if you need them in a pinch. They're amazing in any lantern deck and even better in this one.
Also, from testing Whir-Tezz I would greatly advise against running more than a singleton Darksteel Citadel. It may add some occasional fixing action along GQ when you haven't got anything more important to do with GQ, but comes at the 100% guaranteed cost of sacrificing significant mana consistency by itself. Reaching early UUU is no joke, and in a straight UB build you can't rely on the power of Ancient Stirrings. Moreover, times where you'll be beating down with the citadels are going to be corner-cases at best.
Citadel is definitely a no-go here. I'm already pushing the limit on colorless lands as is and any more is too dangerous, turning GQs into extra deltas isn't really that much of an edge, and they do have another purpose (besides hating tron) - you can sideboard into a third landlock strategy with crucible. Thopters and cranes are your beaters, no need to try too hard with tezzeret. The amount of sideboarding you can do with whir decks is insane, and my sideboard definitely needs tinkered with (I didn't give it too much thought yet since I'm still in the early stages of figuring this one out) - I'm thinking find room for at least one Mechanized Production (giving us 5! ways to win the game), set adrift and maybe some extra one-of haterocks to toolbox out with as much as possible, like torpor orb or something.
I've been really wanting to like whir since I saw it, but that xUUU is just too much for traditional lists to support in numbers. I was also toying around with Dimir lanterns before that, so I decided to revisit some older lists adding whir as the workhorse for establishing the lock and protecting pieces. I've been really impressed by it so far. The versatility is real, so real that I can easily see making whir a buildaround card for a divergent deck. Anything you could possibly want whir can get you, and it also lets you play around some problem cards like chalice or control players who tap out thinking you're not going to be able to interact. What I'm experimenting with currently is sort of a tezzeret/lantern hybrid:
It's definitely rough, but I'd like to refine it and see what other people can do with the concept. Feedback is appreciated.
On the card choices:
Delta and basics are in in place of a stronger multicolor mana base because blood moon shuts you down hard. Voids/Spires might help with consistency, but a single blood moon in someone's opener could otherwise totally throw your game off, as there's no real way to remove it in Dimir. So instead I'm trying to play around it.
The lock suite looks slim with two bridges, two both mill rocks and only a single pithing needle, but it sure doesn't feel that way when I'm playing it. The amount of lifegain and butts you have in this deck lets you wait on bridge a good bit longer than you might be used to, and whir is anything you want it to be at a 4 of. Give it a try before you dismiss it.
Battle is a card I'm giving a try, so far I'm liking it in here (though I wouldn't reach for it in other builds). It gives you longevity in (lots of) life and removes an enemy threat. I'm not convinced on it as a 4 of in the 75, and I think the sideboard ones might turn into brutalities at some point if only because I feel like the discard is a little lacking.
Tezzeret and the thopter combo are your 'real' win. Foundry acts like bridge number 3 and 4 half the times and can close the game out quickly once it's online, even under an actual bridge. Likewise, Tezzeret contributes something to the strategy by digging and strengthening the lock while also providing you an easy win button.
This deck feels like playing a really bare bones tezzeret control deck that's trying to disrupt your opponent with lantern cards until it can win with either tezzeret or thopters, but it can also clamp down on a full lock to win insead. I feel like it's a little bit less prone to losing to a single piece of removal or too much damage slipping through the soft lock than other normal lantern decks, but it's also a little weaker to hate cards without abrupt decay and splashes to give you answers. That being said, chalice on 1 and stony silence are nowhere near gg anymore, which is a breath of fresh air.
If mopal were banned I think I would consider a couple catacombs and a forest. Fetches are real handy for fixing your own top deck and putting stirrings cards back in the mix, and you probably want the basics to help thwart moon anyway. It definitely wouldn't be the death of lantern.
I don't know how anyone gets by without baubles. It does everything the deck want to do for free. Dig for answers, pseudo lantern, artifact count, scry your topdecks... I've been running it at 3 for a while and I really wish I could find room for 4.
I've been goofing around with storm since a little before the probe ban, has anyone just tried running it with Reach Through Mists in its place? Its almost as good for the deck, able to situationally be free or even gain you Mana with splice off of ritual and it cantrips just as much and at instant which isn't totally irrelevant. I've been playing some games with it lately and I haven't really been missing probe as much as you might think.
Do we even care about push? It's good, but I feel like it's at best a sideboard in in place of abrupt decay, and there probably isn't room to accommodate that over other more relevant board options.
I didn't mean to imply saheeli should go in my list - if I thought an alternate win belonged I would have one in there already. Of course she would be mostly uncastable for me, I'm in two colors to avoid shelling out for glimmervoids. But I don't think the deck needs an alternate win at all, certainly not mine. If you can protect something like mechanized production you should already have the tools to win in the first place - it just seems very winmore to me.
In my case I can loop brutality if I must find a way to win without mill (which is extremely rare in the first place). The only deck that could conceivably halt my win with the lock established and safe is something with preboard leyline of sanctity and ways to not care about deckout, which doesn't exist in any meaningful capacity to my knowledge and might take me to time? Even if my opponent was to board in to emulate that, I have nature's claim to remove their hexproof.
The scenarios in which production is actually useful to cementing the lock are so few and corner casey that I think you really just lose out on consistency by including it. And the win the game mode is just totally unnecessary to the deck's gameplan.
Early last summer I was chatting over an EDH game commenting on how much I like codex shredder in the format (I'm known to jam it in just about every list I play and it's easily been my favorite card since it released.). After lamenting that i couldn't play it in normal constructed formats someone mentioned 'Lantern control plays it in modern.' A google search and hours of reading later I was fumbling through playing the deck online and now almost a year later I've finally got a list I can play in paper:
I'm really in love with this deck. It 4 ofs my favorite durdley artifact, it's extremely competitive, it's a blast to play and it mines salt like no other deck in magic. There must be something about losing your spells before you even cast them that places it above counterspells on the 'feelbads' hierarchy of answers. It's a great sensation to see my opponents' hands trembling in rage as they mutter scoop and reluctantly pick up their cards to a field full of durdley rocks after realizing they have no outs left in their ever thinning pile. I'll be playing this deck to death for as long as it's around and I hope everyone else here is enjoying it as much as I am.
I've just taken it to my first two paper modern events and had a blast both times. The first week I went 1-2 scoop, however both my losses were due to clumsy misplays. Nevertheless I had some interesting games. Round one I played eightrack, g1 I lost to a couple early racks after not finding answers and failing to keep pace with fair. G2 I crushed him after going hellbent and milling the racks away. G3 I lost lantern to an inquisition on turn one and then got them extracted. But I managed to pull out a tense win scrying him with bauble/ruins every turn and ticking down 1 life at a time as my fair fought against 2 racks I let through early. He had a ravens crime and I had dropped extractions in the board so I couldn't stop him dropping me back to 2 cards every turn. I finally won after flipping him into a needled lily and clawing my way back out of rack range. Round 2 was burn, and I lost game 1 to a risky no land mopal hand I shouldn't have kept. G2 my opponent kept a one lander and I managed to keep him helpless on one land the entire game after blindmilling him off his second land turn one. G3 he drew four eidolons in his opener, which went predictably horrible for me without extractions. Round 3 was affinity and I dropped the match after cracking bauble in the wrong step, big misplay on my part and I would have won the match if not for that.
Next week I learned from my mistakes and did much better, I crushed bant eldrazi, jeskai thing ascension and delver in the first three rounds, then played the mirror at the top table, which turns out to be mill chicken since everyone's shredders will be needled or dead.
So I'm actually contributing something to the thread, these mechanized production suggestions are not good. The deck doesn't need a 'real' wincon. You should never time out if you're on your game (barring slow play). And any of the possible alternatives to the deckout are just going to clutter the list. The only time they're acceptable is if they actively contribute to the lock or building redundancy in the process for reasons that have been stated many times already itt. If you really want something that can end the game with a tangible damage clock, my suggestion is saheeli. She can scry you if you're still looking for lantern and don't know whether to blindmill, she can make copies of rocks/lanterns, she can tutor redundant pieces to solidify the lock against grudge/whatever, and she does nontargeting damage if that's your thing. For 3 Mana as a one of she fits the bill better than anything like mechanized production ever will. Much like spellbomb, she brings something valuable to the table while giving you the clock if you really need it.
Lantern is strong in a diverse meta because it has the tools to tear apart and defend against any deck possible inside the modern cardpool. If you want to succeed playing it, though, you need to be able to quickly assess your opponent's game plan and make a few extremely narrow decisions to shut it down ASAP because the deck does not forgive small mistakes. What to tutor, what to needle, what modes to brutality with, your sequencing etc. You have to be able to make all these decisions perfectly and quickly. Lantern is probably not a deck to try learning on short notice, but if you have the time go for it.
How do you meaningfully goldfish lantern? I've always thought of that as moot because your plays are so dependent on interaction with the opponent and because the decisions you would make in the interest of racing the lock down as fast as possible are too disconnected and obvious to be worth practicing.
-The extra lifegain and cheaper cast on bridge can be relevant as can the ability to nail huge creatures outside the range of brutality. I think some mix of the two is appropriate.
-Crexalbo recommended set adrift: Holy crap on a crutch this is the blue decay I've been missing. I'll have to find room for this somewhere. Definitely like that idea more than truth.
-Baubles give you dig, consistency, rock count for improvise/metalcraft, fodder for thopters and can act like lanterns if you need them in a pinch. They're amazing in any lantern deck and even better in this one.
Citadel is definitely a no-go here. I'm already pushing the limit on colorless lands as is and any more is too dangerous, turning GQs into extra deltas isn't really that much of an edge, and they do have another purpose (besides hating tron) - you can sideboard into a third landlock strategy with crucible. Thopters and cranes are your beaters, no need to try too hard with tezzeret. The amount of sideboarding you can do with whir decks is insane, and my sideboard definitely needs tinkered with (I didn't give it too much thought yet since I'm still in the early stages of figuring this one out) - I'm thinking find room for at least one Mechanized Production (giving us 5! ways to win the game), set adrift and maybe some extra one-of haterocks to toolbox out with as much as possible, like torpor orb or something.
4 Mox Opal
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Academy Ruins
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
4 Island
1 Swamp
Lock
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
1 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
4 Whir of Invention
4 Glint-Nest Crane
3 Mishra's Bauble
Protection
1 Welding Jar
1 Spellskite
Disruption
2 Battle at the Bridge
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Fair Win
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sun Droplet
2 Battle at the Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Welding Jar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Spellskite
1 Grafdigger's Cage
It's definitely rough, but I'd like to refine it and see what other people can do with the concept. Feedback is appreciated.
On the card choices:
This deck feels like playing a really bare bones tezzeret control deck that's trying to disrupt your opponent with lantern cards until it can win with either tezzeret or thopters, but it can also clamp down on a full lock to win insead. I feel like it's a little bit less prone to losing to a single piece of removal or too much damage slipping through the soft lock than other normal lantern decks, but it's also a little weaker to hate cards without abrupt decay and splashes to give you answers. That being said, chalice on 1 and stony silence are nowhere near gg anymore, which is a breath of fresh air.
In my case I can loop brutality if I must find a way to win without mill (which is extremely rare in the first place). The only deck that could conceivably halt my win with the lock established and safe is something with preboard leyline of sanctity and ways to not care about deckout, which doesn't exist in any meaningful capacity to my knowledge and might take me to time? Even if my opponent was to board in to emulate that, I have nature's claim to remove their hexproof.
The scenarios in which production is actually useful to cementing the lock are so few and corner casey that I think you really just lose out on consistency by including it. And the win the game mode is just totally unnecessary to the deck's gameplan.
4 Mox Opal
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Aether Hub
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Academy Ruins
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Swamp
Lock
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
Dig/Consistency
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Mishra's Bauble
1 Infernal Tutor
3 Nature's Claim
3 Welding Jar
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
I'm really in love with this deck. It 4 ofs my favorite durdley artifact, it's extremely competitive, it's a blast to play and it mines salt like no other deck in magic. There must be something about losing your spells before you even cast them that places it above counterspells on the 'feelbads' hierarchy of answers. It's a great sensation to see my opponents' hands trembling in rage as they mutter scoop and reluctantly pick up their cards to a field full of durdley rocks after realizing they have no outs left in their ever thinning pile. I'll be playing this deck to death for as long as it's around and I hope everyone else here is enjoying it as much as I am.
I've just taken it to my first two paper modern events and had a blast both times. The first week I went 1-2 scoop, however both my losses were due to clumsy misplays. Nevertheless I had some interesting games. Round one I played eightrack, g1 I lost to a couple early racks after not finding answers and failing to keep pace with fair. G2 I crushed him after going hellbent and milling the racks away. G3 I lost lantern to an inquisition on turn one and then got them extracted. But I managed to pull out a tense win scrying him with bauble/ruins every turn and ticking down 1 life at a time as my fair fought against 2 racks I let through early. He had a ravens crime and I had dropped extractions in the board so I couldn't stop him dropping me back to 2 cards every turn. I finally won after flipping him into a needled lily and clawing my way back out of rack range. Round 2 was burn, and I lost game 1 to a risky no land mopal hand I shouldn't have kept. G2 my opponent kept a one lander and I managed to keep him helpless on one land the entire game after blindmilling him off his second land turn one. G3 he drew four eidolons in his opener, which went predictably horrible for me without extractions. Round 3 was affinity and I dropped the match after cracking bauble in the wrong step, big misplay on my part and I would have won the match if not for that.
Next week I learned from my mistakes and did much better, I crushed bant eldrazi, jeskai thing ascension and delver in the first three rounds, then played the mirror at the top table, which turns out to be mill chicken since everyone's shredders will be needled or dead.
So I'm actually contributing something to the thread, these mechanized production suggestions are not good. The deck doesn't need a 'real' wincon. You should never time out if you're on your game (barring slow play). And any of the possible alternatives to the deckout are just going to clutter the list. The only time they're acceptable is if they actively contribute to the lock or building redundancy in the process for reasons that have been stated many times already itt. If you really want something that can end the game with a tangible damage clock, my suggestion is saheeli. She can scry you if you're still looking for lantern and don't know whether to blindmill, she can make copies of rocks/lanterns, she can tutor redundant pieces to solidify the lock against grudge/whatever, and she does nontargeting damage if that's your thing. For 3 Mana as a one of she fits the bill better than anything like mechanized production ever will. Much like spellbomb, she brings something valuable to the table while giving you the clock if you really need it.