Okay, so there's a few contradictions happening in this thread right now regarding Mongoose and Hexdrinker.
What if a 3/3 Shroud isn't good enough by turn 3?
How is Hexdrinker exempt from this? It's strictly worse than mongoose until you put four mana into it. The shroud is better than the extra power every day of the week even if it's a 1/1 vs a 2/1.
Seems like the reaction when the Hexdrinker doesn't get to its second stage is basically "oh well, we tried". It seems to be that there's a general consensus that you have a more reliable way of dumping mana into something rather than filling the graveyard with proactive spells. What? In what world is this true?
Is the general consensus that removal is less present than grave hate? If so... that's just wrong.
There's really like no merit to Hexdrinker guys, C'mon. We got mongoose.
Agree with all you said (except for mongoose: for which I'd say "we got mandrills").
It's obvious that it WILL die from istant speed removal. But basically anything dies from it (unless we're playing Mangoose, which as you said "dies" from GH). Mandrills resists to Fatal Push, but STILL dies from Path to Exile and STILL dies from graveyard hate. I don't get this reasoning. Are we back to the "Tarmogoyf dies to removal" argument? You don't have to level it up in one go, anyway. Use your mana in the most proficient way, depending on the cards in your hand and on the lands you played.
Again, the fact that he's better than Mandrills is pure theory. Another reason to test it.
If we decide that Mandrills is still the way to go, I honestly don't see any reason not to go back to the Disrupting Shoal + Stubborn Denial lists.
The problem isn't that "it dies to removal". It's that "it dies to removal after having invested resources in" (mana in this case).
Let's try to write down some numbers.
@anybody who will test hexdrinker: please take notes of the turn in which it levesls up and report.
The same for mongoose and/or dryads: the turn in which they become 3/3.
I'm still tracking what I'm shoaling and in which turn (our or opponents' since FoN can't be pitched in our turns)
Hexdrinker isn't a 2/1 for G. It's a 2/1 for G that in the midgame becomes our best threat against almost any deck. Narnam Renegade was specifically good against some archetypes and underwhelming against others. This one is, on the other hand, a well-rounded card which is very decent in the early (2/1 on turn one against Combo is definitely a fair threat) and it recycles itself as a grindy card against Control&Midrange, which Narnam WASN'T. That's the main difference.
True about testing. The last response will be testing.
About hexdrinker. I fear it will die in response to the last activation before growing. We have to protect it just as any other threat (yes also mongoose: more about it later) but need to invest a lot of mana for it. I highly dislike it but we'll see.
About mongoose and or dryad. We don't need to protect it by removals, but by grave hate so the investment of resources by our side is the same but it's smaller than mandrills. That's why I prefer the latter.
EDIT: @mikepemulis. They're better in all creatures decks and tokens decks. They're very difficult to block (even a bounce can let them go through for 4 after blocks). And once entered the battlefield you just forget about them and invest resources elsewhere.
The fact is that a 2/1 for :G: is all but good for us. Narnam Renegade has already been used here and dismissed as not enough. And it started even above a 2/1 being a 2/3 deathtouch so it blocked and attacked very well. This can't even block an unpumped monastery swiftspear. I still see mandrills the best option.
Can't you Level up only as a sorcery? For a deck that plans on winning through beats I dunno if you wanna take turns off trying to pump this. I feel like a lot of gameplay is going to bring it to level 1-2 and then you'll need a few open mana to try and level it up so you can activate it again if they respond to the level up to give it instant proof. That's a lot of wasted effort when you should be developing a board and denying them an out to you're creatures.
Those slots seem perfect for a couple of looting and an opt.
I thought about mongoose list. If we go all in on graveyard we could run this creatures suite.
4 delver
3 mongoose
3 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Goyf
2 Domri (which are pretty nasty with dryad)
Any thoughts?
I'm worried because it's a problem of tempo. If you have shoal you can counter whatever costs 2 or less. If you have FoN and they play a creature you have to look for a removal. It's true you'll be playing more but it's not costless. That said, I don't want to dismiss FoN (that will surely help a lot), but which is the best configuration is not all that clear (at least to me).
The truth is we still didn't get anything except for FoN which will probably be a sideboard card if the meta keep being fast and maybe 1 land, nothing more. We may have become even worse since now is easier to kill moon.
First of all: I'm back on RUG train. I think I'll drop for now paths and nacatls for good old Blood Moon.
I want to make an experiment: since recently I saw that the most played graveyard hate is Surgical, I want to try traverse the ulvenwald sideboard. It may just be a fiasco, but I'm playing online for free so why don't try?
Shoal notes: the only things I Shoaled tonight were a Pyromancer's Ascension and a Lightning Bolt. No creatures. This is something I'm going to watch closely, because the noncreature clause on Force of Negation is real. But I suspect much of what we're countering are noncreatures anyway.
I'm doing it it too.
Being able to play more non blue cards such as baubles and/or Tarfires and/or Lootings (waiting for a new cantrip if it ever will be printed) would be a very good thing.
The other thing to take note of is how many times we shoal in our turn. A problem could be a removal on our goyf we committed for at end of our turn.
FoN doesn't compete with shoal but with stubborn denial. Hitting creatures is too important. That said you can't play 8 pitch spell. Hence my split.
Agree with all you said (except for mongoose: for which I'd say "we got mandrills").
My current confinguration post Horizons is
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Force of Negation
3 Mana Leak
3 Disrupting Shoal
The problem isn't that "it dies to removal". It's that "it dies to removal after having invested resources in" (mana in this case).
Let's try to write down some numbers.
True about testing. The last response will be testing.
About hexdrinker. I fear it will die in response to the last activation before growing. We have to protect it just as any other threat (yes also mongoose: more about it later) but need to invest a lot of mana for it. I highly dislike it but we'll see.
About mongoose and or dryad. We don't need to protect it by removals, but by grave hate so the investment of resources by our side is the same but it's smaller than mandrills. That's why I prefer the latter.
EDIT: @mikepemulis. They're better in all creatures decks and tokens decks. They're very difficult to block (even a bounce can let them go through for 4 after blocks). And once entered the battlefield you just forget about them and invest resources elsewhere.
You just said all I was thinking.
I thought about mongoose list. If we go all in on graveyard we could run this creatures suite.
4 delver
3 mongoose
3 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Goyf
2 Domri (which are pretty nasty with dryad)
Any thoughts?
Agree. A 3/3 turn 3-4 is outclassed by almost every other creature in modern.
I want to make an experiment: since recently I saw that the most played graveyard hate is Surgical, I want to try traverse the ulvenwald sideboard. It may just be a fiasco, but I'm playing online for free so why don't try?
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hooting Mandrills
Removal
2 Tarfire
2 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
Cantrips
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Faithless Looting
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Mana Leak
1 Lazotep Plating
4 Disrupting Shoal
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Blood Moon
2 Return to Nature
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Flame Slash
2 Anger of the Gods
I'm trying Lazotep Plating, but it may just be leak number 3. I still have to cast it once so I'll see.
I'm doing it it too.
Being able to play more non blue cards such as baubles and/or Tarfires and/or Lootings (waiting for a new cantrip if it ever will be printed) would be a very good thing.
The other thing to take note of is how many times we shoal in our turn. A problem could be a removal on our goyf we committed for at end of our turn.
This are exactly my thoughts. I couldn't have explained better.