...I have no idea why Fate couldn't have taken the damned time to at least come in and claim at least.
But with him as town, I don't think it can be any more clearer that Azrael and Nacho are scum.
I've been made to understand that this junkyard software now breaks hyperlinks completely when the thread title changes, so I hunted down quotes. Here's Exhibit A, which I posted about yesterday:
A dC townflip knocks Zen out of my townreads, makes me look at something like Thor/Zen/Cyan scumteam. I agree with Thor that his behavior around dC/Cyan makes that a bit of an unlikely team so I could possibly swap Thor and Zen in my current scumsiderations with a dC scumflip. Iso's interactions with dC are very much not scumpartner interactions, so Iso goes into pretty much confirmed town pile with a dC scumflip, still have a pretty great townread on Tar.
So apparently Nacho supposedly clearly thinks here than Zen and myself are on opposing teams, and has a townread on Zen to boot. Also note that Thor and Zen appear to be, in his mind, on different teams as well.
This is, of course, followed very quickly by Nacho voting Zen and turning it into a legitimate wagon.
So what changed in between? Zen posted not a single time in that timeframe. I was on V/LA, and therefore of course did not post as well. So what in the world suddenly had Zen switch from 'town' and 'not on dC/Thor's team' to 'scum with dC and Thor'?
The answer? Absolutely nothing but blatant opportunism. My wagon wasn't going to fly. Scumbuddy Azrael was still vaguely on the brink. He saw momentum moving against Zen and moved to capitalize - there is literally no other explanation for that inexplicable change of opinion, no other possible relation of cause and effect.
See this snipe? There's absolutely no conviction in this. This isn't the statement of someone that truly believes me to be scum. This is a throwaway retort by an Azrael who doesn't want to distract from the coming mislynch, but wants to 'emphasize' that he still believes what he was espousing before. There isn't a shred of sincere thought in this. It's someone covering their bases, not wanting to sound inconsistent.
Third scum... I'm honestly not sure. I want to think that the nightkill points towards a second MS scum, but this being the third game now that may not apply. I can see where Iso's coming from with KoL's support of the Zen wagon, especially with that rubbish statement about 'not being able to win with Zen' regardless of his alignment, but it's actually not terribly different from the kind of rubbish that I saw from her in the previous two games, when she was town.
On balance, I'd rather lynch one of the obvscum today. I think I'm most comfortable with Vote: Nacho, with total willingness to go for Azrael as well.
...meh. I knew there was something weird about how confident Iso was that there were three scum. (That's what my last post was about, by the way.) By the numbers there could easily have been three or four, which meant with the modkills it was entirely likely we were at LyLo that day... and yet Iso threw on a vote with no hesitation. If I'd actually been around I would probably have (tried to) follow up on that.
@Ged - I have to agree with you on my participation this game. I originally joined this game because I thought that with only two words per post, it would be easy to follow and I wouldn't have to spend much time on it, which was a distinct plus given my schedule at the time and upcoming trip. Which was true, but the communication difficulty plus the obvious difference in posting times meant I wasn't able to do half as much as I would have liked. That being said, I think the large number of modkills did, in fact, very heavily influence the game, and as Iso says, was probably directly responsible for the scum win. To my mind, only the B_E modkill was sufficiently justified.
Also, to redress the communication issue in future MMMs, might I suggest allowing hyperlinks to previous posts in the thread only? With that, even two words should be enough. As it was, too many 'words' were spent on post numbers.
...ye gods, I am so jetlagged. Italy was great, but... I am so jetlagged.
I've done a really quick skim - not all the way back to the 11th yet, but at least for a while. Thoughts: -
Pretty certain that Cyan is town now.
Thor versus KoL is giving me a weird feeling. I think it reminds me vaguely of Crosstown 1, but I'm not confident enough on that to have a firm read on either.
I'm still heavily uncomfortable with Azrael. His reaction to mastin replacing in was weird, again. What's complicating this is that he does have pretty good points on Zen_Soul, who doesn't seem as manically illogical as he did in Crosstown 1, but does appear to be just as uninterested and unmotivated. And at the risk of being a cast-iron pot, that seems rather more in line with his self-confessed 'not liking being scum'. Mm.
Still heavily dislike Nacho, though. I'm seeing less thought and more opportunism in his posts. Especially here, he apparently has Zen_Soul in his townreads, and apparently thinks Zen and I don't make sense as scum together, so much so that me flipping town drops Zen_Soul 'out of his townreads'. Fast forward to 5 days later, in which Zen_Soul himself barely posts at all - to this... where suddenly Zen_Soul and I make perfect sense as scum together, followed quickly by Nacho voting Zen_Soul - all with no stated reasoning or justification at all. Funny how at this point Zen_Soul's wagon is gaining traction. Although I note the wagon participants at this point are Az, then KoL, then Nacho, which makes it unlikely they are all scum.
On that note, I also heavily dislike mastin's posts, most especially the excessive and exaggerated barning of Nacho. The 'if you're scum, I'm going to be so sad' bits feel particularly plastic. I also can feel the wine aromas wafting from his post about Cyan 'hero-worshipping' Azrael. Azrael's a good player, but he does, you know, get lynched as scum. It happens. And I know that any experienced Mafia player should realize that sometimes you make a small slip, get pressured, make more slips, and more and more people come down on you - how that all happens, and can happen to the best of us. Points of reservation - the fact that said excessive barning of Nacho makes very little sense with both as scum, and that this was Tammy's slot.
I dislike Hooker_Punch, but there's not enough content there at all for me to say anything either way. Which is a point in itself, of course, but there are probably better choices at this juncture.
....mm. Looking over the above..
Unvote: Azrael Vote: Nacho
I think that's my most confident read at this point.
I'll try to check in tomorrow, but probably won't do any re-reading by then - I'm feeling a lot more mellow now, but I'm still jetlagged and still not all that motivated. Let me know if you want a claim - by which I mean the players I actually lean more towards being town. I.E. not the one I'm voting.
....this is probably going to be the last time I post before I'm overseas, but I'm short of time after checking a few things and I'm sick of trying to make this Curse interface work. Let me make this brief.
Lynch me if you want. But once I flip you'd best be bloody sure to kill/lynch scum-Az and scum-Nacho either tonight or tomorrow. Because while I'll fully admit I'm not spending much time on this game, that doesn't change the fact that Nacho is full of bovine faeces.
He says he posted a 'vague summary' of Azrael's meta? Utter falsehood. For reference, this is what he posted about Azrael - that he's 'feeling good' and 'excited' about the game. 9 posts later Azrael posts this, saying that 'to people paying attention' he's 'happy at returning to playing Mafia' and 'not being scum'. That's no statement of 'meta'. Nacho described a mindset for Azrael, and Azrael went along with it totally and unreservedly without even a hint of deviation, and even a backhanded implication that Nacho is town and everyone else 'isn't paying attention'. I don't believe Nacho can read someone else's mental state that incredibly well in a forum game. Hell, at this point I'm actually more sure on Nacho being scum than I am of Azrael.
Also, to date, they both apparently want ced and Cyan dead, for as far as I can tell next to no reason. Nacho is even incredibly quick to discredit the point I made about ced's catch coming from a town mindset, rather than scum pouncing or insinuation. At this point, I'd be totally surprised if at least two of these three reads are wrong - Az = scum, Nacho = scum, ced = town.
Tammy - regarding your questions; firstly, I don't have a problem with Nacho meta-ing others. I do, however, question why in blazes he apparently meta-ed Azrael that amazingly closely, without having done the same to others - because if he had to, say, Cyan or myself, he'd recognize that Cyan latching on to an early scum read and not letting go happens so often it's almost his character trait, and that my degree of commitment to a game has absolutely nothing to do with my alignment, and usually everything to do with RL. To be fair, his answer about House Mafia was a decent one, but it still begs the question of why he's not apparently putting in that huge meta effort for this game. Secondly, 'theatrics' isn't a scum tell - but overdoing it, sounding overly plastic, that's a scum tell, one for Azrael in particular. And I finally looked back at Cyberspace to see what the heck bothered me about him there - and it was him sounding overly enthusiastic. Which fits here, too. Yes, it's a value judgment. No, I don't have any solid proof there. Which is why if it takes me dying to get Azrael and after that Nacho lynched, that's perfectly freaking fine. And finally, why is my focus so narrow... that's - and I do apologize for this - simply because I don't have time and I'm not terribly motivated by this game.
Final note before I leave.
Town - ced, probably Tammy. Probably Iso too.
Probably town - Cyan, although I always need to be careful about him. Probably Taredas - if he was scum he could easily have come down against me in his latest post.
Scummy - HookerPunch - just coasting along, and also was quick to discredit what I said about ced. Fate, although I'm not sure on this; he's totally unlike how he was as scum in CT1, but how peripheral he's been fits regular scum profiles.
Scum that must die - Azrael, Nacho.
If Azrael is somehow impossibly town, ced and Iso are back in play. I'm still reasonably confident on Tammy and Taredas.
If Nacho is somehow town after all of that ridiculousness, then my impressions of this game are obviously completely wrong and should be ignored.
Out to holiday, and hopefully destressing. Have fun.
First off - V/LA 11-21 May. I'll be overseas, and while I won't necessarily not have reliable Internet, I'm not terribly likely to have the time and/or wherewithal to do more than check in and skim, if at all. Not to say I have much time right now, but eh.
I found your "overtheatrics" scumtell with Azrael troubling because I have a good enough grasp of Azrael's meta to understand that he has plenty of overtheatric tendencies as town. Thus, you accusing of him of something that I know isn't a scumtell for him obviously throws up a ref flag for me (since I know you two have history together, "assume" was used in a bit of a sarcastically since you two have been here since the beginning). I would also argue that most people interpreted your attack (if they read it/cared about it) the same way I did, which is as you attacking his general demeanor. Azrael also seems to hold the same viewpoint that I do, considering the meat of his defense is "I almost make openings like this".
Your problems with Azrael don't sound like entrapment, they sound like he was too sure on page 2. Which clearly was demonstrated to not be the case as he backed off Iso soon after the initial push. Or are you acting like no one could be as sure as Azrael sounded that early? Because Iso sounded and continues to sound pretty sure about Azrael early, and that hasn't changed at all. I also note you never answered my question about the differences between defensible and indefensible, and you never answered my concerns about not generally caring about making a defensible case as town.
Yes, it's obvious you two have a history together, or else I wouldn't be as bothered as I am by you taking an issue with "overtheatrics" in Azrael's play.
I think my characterization about him is accurate: I've read a lot of his games, from the very first game played on this site with the weird Butler and cop who knew who everyone was, to House Mafia, to him talking about his own meta. I don't understand why I have to be scum with Azrael in order to properly characterize his meta, or even why him copying my characterization makes us both scum together as opposed to just making him scum. Can you explain that for me?
So what, exactly, made you decide to go read so many of Azrael's games? Because I don't recall you doing the same for Cyan, or DYH, or myself in previous games.
As for that latter, perhaps I haven't made myself properly clear. Again - I didn't like Azrael's attack on Iso because (a) I felt he was too sure too early (and no, backing off once you're being voted heavily for your bogus case isn't an ameliorating factor); (b) the way he approached said 'case' (including said construction of indefensible points), consequently, didn't feel inquisitive or analytical, but instead predatory, therefore bringing to mind someone attempting to trap his victim; (c) and reinforcing the above, he felt distinctly fake to me, like he was forcing it. Which, mind you, is the complete opposite impression that you apparently seem to have gotten, and which was apparently so 'accurate' that he parroted it nearly word for word. If you don't find something weird about that, I have to question either your own understanding of human differences, or, probably more accurately, your alignment in this game.
In other news, I'm not convinced by Azrael's Joker excuse. The two don't share much conceptual similarity at all, as far as I can recall. Additionally, from what I do recall, the original Silk Spectre has every reason to want Eddie Blake dead.
On the flip side, ced is very probably town. The way he picked up on that error by Azrael - first making sure that was correct, before presenting the catch - was a very town approach.
My dC case began because "over theatrics and entrapment" was his initial attack. I don't think being dramatic is a scumtell for anyone really, and I don't think it's a duty of a town player to give the person they're attacking "outs" (whatever the **** that means). I currently don't like how dC thinks theatrics are a scumtell because of one game he played with Azrael (I assume they have a bit more history than this), and the entrapment accusation continues to be questionable (maybe I'm just not understanding it, though: how can Azrael respond to your case that doesn't leave a valid avenue of attack?).
I post in chunks because I'm on an iPad, dC. The vote was a serious vote and the reasons I voted you came in my second post.
Why is it interesting that Azrael agrees with my take on his meta?
I'm engaging your points because they come from the least genuine place. Cyan reasons are also bad, but I don't expect him to listen, ditto Iso.
First off, 'overtheatrics' can too be a scumtell, because people do, in fact, tend to overcompensate sometimes when saying things they know are fake. In Azrael's case, he mixes this up by always starting off with random banter - but that doesn't stop some of that banter from sounding faker than usual. More on that a bit later.
Second, I said 'entrapment' because that's precisely the mindset his 'case' on Iso brought to mind. It wasn't inquisitive, it didn't feel like poking for reactions, it felt like someone trying to exploit an opening and corner his target with wordplay, in this case by hinging his 'case' on a basically indefensible point. On Day 1 within the first few pages, short of someone claiming human, elf, or hobbit in a game where the monsters of the Mines of Moria are the town, I don't believe anyone can be as sure as he sounded... or was trying to sound.
Third - I find it interesting that you're apparently not paying all that much real attention to my posts. You 'assume' I have a lot of history with Azrael? While, mind you, apparently 'not liking' that I supposedly brought up theatrics because of one game with Azrael... when the context of my post - and Azrael's that I was responding to, for that matter - make it exceedingly clear that we do in fact have a pretty long game history between us?
Fourth - he wasn't 'agreeing with your take on his meta', he outright parroted your description of his supposed mood, temperament, and attitude toward this game. Are you a mind-reader? Are your hearts linked as one? Because otherwise I find that very suspect, and makes it all the more likely you're scum together.
And finally, I come from the 'least genuine place'. Right. Soundbites do not an answer make. I also note that only after this do you even try to engage anyone else re: Azrael, and that would be... ced. Only. Not inspiring.
Really? World Domination 2? Ancient history that had two scum teams, one with an alternate win condition, and where I died night 1?
None of which are germane to my point, which you're very carefully avoiding. The point is that my behavior has stayed the same throughout all these years. If you want to address the substance instead of making fun of the old-school setup, you're more than welcome.
Quote from DesCoures »
While, much much more recently, I played against scum-you in Cyberspace, and where you were literally the only scum member I didn't pinpoint day 1? The game where your early game had almost exactly the same kind of overly 'whimsical' and predatory feel rather than the methodical approach you tend to take as town?
As for 'entrapment'... your 'case' on Iso was that he was running a gambit, badly. And how in the world would a theoretical town-Iso be able to respond to that in any way that wouldn't leave open avenues of attack? There was nothing inquisitive about that 'case'. You weren't asking, you were pouncing.
Don't give soundbites like whimsical and predatory. Give me citations, if this is an honest case. Because from where I'm sitting, I'm just getting started here, and you each seem to forgetting the difference between what my early play looks like, and what it becomes once the thread gets rolling and I have some material to grind through. But right now, the people I'm most interested in responding to, such as you, have been making themselves scarce. Maybe that's the nature of the new MTGS, veteran syndrome and all that, and certainly most of us have been infected by that to one degree or another. Playstyle doesn't occur in a vacuum.
My pouncing is my asking, DC. I don't really care about rhetoric, I don't even find substance all that useful half the time, I care about style. Emotion. Anomalies. And the harder I hit someone, the harder and truer they react.
Pray tell, what point was I supposedly avoiding? Because no matter how you split the two parts of that response, the point I'm supposedly 'avoiding' was in the very next part you quoted.
I remember very well how your early game tends to go. You spit out some random banter, some playful nonsense, while keeping your eye on everyone. I don't feel that latter much here, and it's a fact that your Iso case rang hollow.
And in fact, you demanding 'citations' and such is classic scum pushing the onus of proof onto others. I haven't the time to go looking for that kind of thing in detail. What I remember is that I was uncomfortable with you very early on because of something or other that rang hollow - something that was definitely overdone - and then later dropped that when you fixed it and when RobRoy started to make himself obvscum and led two of his teammates to follow him down the rabbit hole, which is frankly the lion's share of what I remember about that single day I was alive. And the way you threw the 'Tammy is town! Iso is scum!' declarations around reminded me of that.
So convince me, Ced. Are YOU as lazy as your analysis seems here, are you playing a hunch, or did you really think you were getting away with that weak of an excuse for a voting rationale?
Same questions, DC. Because from where I'm sitting, I'm seeing good odds that at least one of you is scum who's just content to sit there regurgitating platitudes about my metagame, while the town teeters on the abyss you've pushed us to, throwing catch-words carelessly into the wind.
Waxing flowery now, are we? Because that sounds so very much like put-upon town.
I won't deny I'm not devoting much time to this game. This is actually not a terribly convenient time for me to be spending hours poring over the minutiae of posts and checking past games. That being said, I've stated the reasons I do have, and stand by them, because you're frankly not doing anything that's changing my mind. My intuition is saying you're scum, and that Nacho is posting in the same scum-chat that you are, especially given that apparent mental link the two of you have.
So, counter-factual vague assertions (Cyan), awful meta arguments and OMGUS (taredas/iso), interpreting jokes as though they were serious (Taredas), and I don't even know how to respond to DC's point because I don't know what he means by entrapment and apparently he's had selective amnesia regarding things like World Dom 2 and most every town-start I've had, ever. Any other filler cliches and excuse-cases anyone needs to work out of their system? Now's your chance. Everybody's doing it.
Really? World Domination 2? Ancient history that had two scum teams, one with an alternate win condition, and where I died night 1?
While, much much more recently, I played against scum-you in Cyberspace, and where you were literally the only scum member I didn't pinpoint day 1? The game where your early game had almost exactly the same kind of overly 'whimsical' and predatory feel rather than the methodical approach you tend to take as town?
As for 'entrapment'... your 'case' on Iso was that he was running a gambit, badly. And how in the world would a theoretical town-Iso be able to respond to that in any way that wouldn't leave open avenues of attack? There was nothing inquisitive about that 'case'. You weren't asking, you were pouncing.
It's appropriate. And the idea that anyone on your wagon is 'not serious' is super-lulsy. Every person voting you has stated specific reasoning for doing so; nobody is just hanging out voting you for fun. And it is a very rare occurence when someone thinks that a wagon on them is 'well justified'. But WE think so, and ultimately that is what matters most.
And no, I don't think you're panicking about how to false-claim. I think that you're dead scum and you know it, and are just hoping that your wagon dissipates, because you don't have a claim to get you out of being dead.
And I think you're trying to rush this much too fast for my comfort.
DC hasn't been in to explain even the meaning of "entrapment" and "overtheatrics". Thor seems to be voting me because other people are voting me. Taredas has disappeared. Ced says I'm lazy, wihtout even understanding what I was actually doing. You're tunneling, because that's what you always do, and Iso is apparently so upset that *I* ruined his brilliancy that he thinks I need a spanking via lynch.
I'm going to wait for DC, Taredas, and Ced, and if they still want to push this wagon to completion, I'm going to make damn sure that their reasoning is on the record before you and Iso rush an obscenely fast lynch for reasons that most of the wagon can't even coherently articulate.
My reasoning's on the board now. I'm pretty certain Taredas and ced have made their reasoning clear as well. Your move.
Out of the remainder of the wagon, DC, Taredas, and Ced have all gotten really quiet and sat back while Cyan and Iso do all the heavy lifting, and probably that's a more clear-cut warning sign. If the town is going to implode without them having to put themselves onto the radar in a major way, the mafia are going to be happy to let that happen.
Oh, really?
Because if you're going to bring up ancient history, then I would think you'd remember that my posting schedule in more recent years has been generally at best once per two days, which is what I was trying to do yesterday when I couldn't get the site to open. Ioday is the third day from my previous post. 'Really quiet'. Heh.
That last line is also blatant fearmongering, especially from someone that earlier said something about 'eh, I think we have enough data points'.
@Nachomamma (also, Re: Nachomamma, for the rest of you)
dC, I would expect you to be more familiar with Azrael's meta than I am. Do you think that overtheatrics is a scumtell in particular for him? Personally, it comes off to me like he's feeling good about the game, he's excited by the game: I haven't seen him be able to capture that same excitement in his scum games, but it's something that's usually present in the majority of his towngames. Do you think overtheatrics is a scumtell in general?
Entrapment tactics... he's pushing on Iso for running a bad gambit. I don't really see a whole lot of entrapment tactics in the midst of that, but I might be wrong! Show me where.
FATE, COME WITH ME
(((i think dgb might be town also)))
I find this whole post slightly incongruent with the fact that you voted me on the post directly before this. Especially given that your more recent posts imply that was a serious vote.
See above for what I meant by entrapment tactics. There was nothing Iso could possibly have said that wouldn't leave valid avenues of attack, and additionally Azrael sounded way too sure of himself.
...I also find it rather interesting that Azrael basically regurgitated the very same characterization of him that you state here.
Riddle me this, Nacho. You seem very interested in taking pressure off Azrael, without actually engaging anyone (well, other than myself, who you are voting) on the points against him. Why is that?
@Taredas
I didn't like the way he basically totally backed off Tammy with that huge apology and such. Felt a bit fake. Didn't feel fake enough for me to believe Azrael's 'case', though.
But with him as town, I don't think it can be any more clearer that Azrael and Nacho are scum.
I've been made to understand that this junkyard software now breaks hyperlinks completely when the thread title changes, so I hunted down quotes. Here's Exhibit A, which I posted about yesterday:
Re: Nacho
Observe #560.
So apparently Nacho supposedly clearly thinks here than Zen and myself are on opposing teams, and has a townread on Zen to boot. Also note that Thor and Zen appear to be, in his mind, on different teams as well.
Observe #636.
This is, of course, followed very quickly by Nacho voting Zen and turning it into a legitimate wagon.
So what changed in between? Zen posted not a single time in that timeframe. I was on V/LA, and therefore of course did not post as well. So what in the world suddenly had Zen switch from 'town' and 'not on dC/Thor's team' to 'scum with dC and Thor'?
The answer? Absolutely nothing but blatant opportunism. My wagon wasn't going to fly. Scumbuddy Azrael was still vaguely on the brink. He saw momentum moving against Zen and moved to capitalize - there is literally no other explanation for that inexplicable change of opinion, no other possible relation of cause and effect.
As for Azrael...
See this snipe? There's absolutely no conviction in this. This isn't the statement of someone that truly believes me to be scum. This is a throwaway retort by an Azrael who doesn't want to distract from the coming mislynch, but wants to 'emphasize' that he still believes what he was espousing before. There isn't a shred of sincere thought in this. It's someone covering their bases, not wanting to sound inconsistent.
Third scum... I'm honestly not sure. I want to think that the nightkill points towards a second MS scum, but this being the third game now that may not apply. I can see where Iso's coming from with KoL's support of the Zen wagon, especially with that rubbish statement about 'not being able to win with Zen' regardless of his alignment, but it's actually not terribly different from the kind of rubbish that I saw from her in the previous two games, when she was town.
On balance, I'd rather lynch one of the obvscum today. I think I'm most comfortable with Vote: Nacho, with total willingness to go for Azrael as well.
@Ged - I have to agree with you on my participation this game. I originally joined this game because I thought that with only two words per post, it would be easy to follow and I wouldn't have to spend much time on it, which was a distinct plus given my schedule at the time and upcoming trip. Which was true, but the communication difficulty plus the obvious difference in posting times meant I wasn't able to do half as much as I would have liked. That being said, I think the large number of modkills did, in fact, very heavily influence the game, and as Iso says, was probably directly responsible for the scum win. To my mind, only the B_E modkill was sufficiently justified.
Also, to redress the communication issue in future MMMs, might I suggest allowing hyperlinks to previous posts in the thread only? With that, even two words should be enough. As it was, too many 'words' were spent on post numbers.
I've done a really quick skim - not all the way back to the 11th yet, but at least for a while. Thoughts: -
Pretty certain that Cyan is town now.
Thor versus KoL is giving me a weird feeling. I think it reminds me vaguely of Crosstown 1, but I'm not confident enough on that to have a firm read on either.
I'm still heavily uncomfortable with Azrael. His reaction to mastin replacing in was weird, again. What's complicating this is that he does have pretty good points on Zen_Soul, who doesn't seem as manically illogical as he did in Crosstown 1, but does appear to be just as uninterested and unmotivated. And at the risk of being a cast-iron pot, that seems rather more in line with his self-confessed 'not liking being scum'. Mm.
Still heavily dislike Nacho, though. I'm seeing less thought and more opportunism in his posts. Especially here, he apparently has Zen_Soul in his townreads, and apparently thinks Zen and I don't make sense as scum together, so much so that me flipping town drops Zen_Soul 'out of his townreads'. Fast forward to 5 days later, in which Zen_Soul himself barely posts at all - to this... where suddenly Zen_Soul and I make perfect sense as scum together, followed quickly by Nacho voting Zen_Soul - all with no stated reasoning or justification at all. Funny how at this point Zen_Soul's wagon is gaining traction. Although I note the wagon participants at this point are Az, then KoL, then Nacho, which makes it unlikely they are all scum.
On that note, I also heavily dislike mastin's posts, most especially the excessive and exaggerated barning of Nacho. The 'if you're scum, I'm going to be so sad' bits feel particularly plastic. I also can feel the wine aromas wafting from his post about Cyan 'hero-worshipping' Azrael. Azrael's a good player, but he does, you know, get lynched as scum. It happens. And I know that any experienced Mafia player should realize that sometimes you make a small slip, get pressured, make more slips, and more and more people come down on you - how that all happens, and can happen to the best of us. Points of reservation - the fact that said excessive barning of Nacho makes very little sense with both as scum, and that this was Tammy's slot.
I dislike Hooker_Punch, but there's not enough content there at all for me to say anything either way. Which is a point in itself, of course, but there are probably better choices at this juncture.
....mm. Looking over the above..
Unvote: Azrael
Vote: Nacho
I think that's my most confident read at this point.
I'll try to check in tomorrow, but probably won't do any re-reading by then - I'm feeling a lot more mellow now, but I'm still jetlagged and still not all that motivated. Let me know if you want a claim - by which I mean the players I actually lean more towards being town. I.E. not the one I'm voting.
Lynch me if you want. But once I flip you'd best be bloody sure to kill/lynch scum-Az and scum-Nacho either tonight or tomorrow. Because while I'll fully admit I'm not spending much time on this game, that doesn't change the fact that Nacho is full of bovine faeces.
He says he posted a 'vague summary' of Azrael's meta? Utter falsehood. For reference, this is what he posted about Azrael - that he's 'feeling good' and 'excited' about the game. 9 posts later Azrael posts this, saying that 'to people paying attention' he's 'happy at returning to playing Mafia' and 'not being scum'. That's no statement of 'meta'. Nacho described a mindset for Azrael, and Azrael went along with it totally and unreservedly without even a hint of deviation, and even a backhanded implication that Nacho is town and everyone else 'isn't paying attention'. I don't believe Nacho can read someone else's mental state that incredibly well in a forum game. Hell, at this point I'm actually more sure on Nacho being scum than I am of Azrael.
Also, to date, they both apparently want ced and Cyan dead, for as far as I can tell next to no reason. Nacho is even incredibly quick to discredit the point I made about ced's catch coming from a town mindset, rather than scum pouncing or insinuation. At this point, I'd be totally surprised if at least two of these three reads are wrong - Az = scum, Nacho = scum, ced = town.
Tammy - regarding your questions; firstly, I don't have a problem with Nacho meta-ing others. I do, however, question why in blazes he apparently meta-ed Azrael that amazingly closely, without having done the same to others - because if he had to, say, Cyan or myself, he'd recognize that Cyan latching on to an early scum read and not letting go happens so often it's almost his character trait, and that my degree of commitment to a game has absolutely nothing to do with my alignment, and usually everything to do with RL. To be fair, his answer about House Mafia was a decent one, but it still begs the question of why he's not apparently putting in that huge meta effort for this game. Secondly, 'theatrics' isn't a scum tell - but overdoing it, sounding overly plastic, that's a scum tell, one for Azrael in particular. And I finally looked back at Cyberspace to see what the heck bothered me about him there - and it was him sounding overly enthusiastic. Which fits here, too. Yes, it's a value judgment. No, I don't have any solid proof there. Which is why if it takes me dying to get Azrael and after that Nacho lynched, that's perfectly freaking fine. And finally, why is my focus so narrow... that's - and I do apologize for this - simply because I don't have time and I'm not terribly motivated by this game.
Final note before I leave.
Town - ced, probably Tammy. Probably Iso too.
Probably town - Cyan, although I always need to be careful about him. Probably Taredas - if he was scum he could easily have come down against me in his latest post.
Scummy - HookerPunch - just coasting along, and also was quick to discredit what I said about ced. Fate, although I'm not sure on this; he's totally unlike how he was as scum in CT1, but how peripheral he's been fits regular scum profiles.
Scum that must die - Azrael, Nacho.
If Azrael is somehow impossibly town, ced and Iso are back in play. I'm still reasonably confident on Tammy and Taredas.
If Nacho is somehow town after all of that ridiculousness, then my impressions of this game are obviously completely wrong and should be ignored.
Out to holiday, and hopefully destressing. Have fun.
Somehow this annoying multi-quote managed to lose a whole quote post. Irritating.
@Azrael
I'm pretty certain someone - Taredas, I think? - asked me about what I didn't like about #85 previously, which I already answered in a previous post.
@Nacho
So what, exactly, made you decide to go read so many of Azrael's games? Because I don't recall you doing the same for Cyan, or DYH, or myself in previous games.
As for that latter, perhaps I haven't made myself properly clear. Again - I didn't like Azrael's attack on Iso because (a) I felt he was too sure too early (and no, backing off once you're being voted heavily for your bogus case isn't an ameliorating factor); (b) the way he approached said 'case' (including said construction of indefensible points), consequently, didn't feel inquisitive or analytical, but instead predatory, therefore bringing to mind someone attempting to trap his victim; (c) and reinforcing the above, he felt distinctly fake to me, like he was forcing it. Which, mind you, is the complete opposite impression that you apparently seem to have gotten, and which was apparently so 'accurate' that he parroted it nearly word for word. If you don't find something weird about that, I have to question either your own understanding of human differences, or, probably more accurately, your alignment in this game.
In other news, I'm not convinced by Azrael's Joker excuse. The two don't share much conceptual similarity at all, as far as I can recall. Additionally, from what I do recall, the original Silk Spectre has every reason to want Eddie Blake dead.
On the flip side, ced is very probably town. The way he picked up on that error by Azrael - first making sure that was correct, before presenting the catch - was a very town approach.
Unvote: duckslikerain
Vote: Shockwave
Most post.
First off, 'overtheatrics' can too be a scumtell, because people do, in fact, tend to overcompensate sometimes when saying things they know are fake. In Azrael's case, he mixes this up by always starting off with random banter - but that doesn't stop some of that banter from sounding faker than usual. More on that a bit later.
Second, I said 'entrapment' because that's precisely the mindset his 'case' on Iso brought to mind. It wasn't inquisitive, it didn't feel like poking for reactions, it felt like someone trying to exploit an opening and corner his target with wordplay, in this case by hinging his 'case' on a basically indefensible point. On Day 1 within the first few pages, short of someone claiming human, elf, or hobbit in a game where the monsters of the Mines of Moria are the town, I don't believe anyone can be as sure as he sounded... or was trying to sound.
Third - I find it interesting that you're apparently not paying all that much real attention to my posts. You 'assume' I have a lot of history with Azrael? While, mind you, apparently 'not liking' that I supposedly brought up theatrics because of one game with Azrael... when the context of my post - and Azrael's that I was responding to, for that matter - make it exceedingly clear that we do in fact have a pretty long game history between us?
Fourth - he wasn't 'agreeing with your take on his meta', he outright parroted your description of his supposed mood, temperament, and attitude toward this game. Are you a mind-reader? Are your hearts linked as one? Because otherwise I find that very suspect, and makes it all the more likely you're scum together.
And finally, I come from the 'least genuine place'. Right. Soundbites do not an answer make. I also note that only after this do you even try to engage anyone else re: Azrael, and that would be... ced. Only. Not inspiring.
@Azrael
Pray tell, what point was I supposedly avoiding? Because no matter how you split the two parts of that response, the point I'm supposedly 'avoiding' was in the very next part you quoted.
I remember very well how your early game tends to go. You spit out some random banter, some playful nonsense, while keeping your eye on everyone. I don't feel that latter much here, and it's a fact that your Iso case rang hollow.
And in fact, you demanding 'citations' and such is classic scum pushing the onus of proof onto others. I haven't the time to go looking for that kind of thing in detail. What I remember is that I was uncomfortable with you very early on because of something or other that rang hollow - something that was definitely overdone - and then later dropped that when you fixed it and when RobRoy started to make himself obvscum and led two of his teammates to follow him down the rabbit hole, which is frankly the lion's share of what I remember about that single day I was alive. And the way you threw the 'Tammy is town! Iso is scum!' declarations around reminded me of that.
Waxing flowery now, are we? Because that sounds so very much like put-upon town.
I won't deny I'm not devoting much time to this game. This is actually not a terribly convenient time for me to be spending hours poring over the minutiae of posts and checking past games. That being said, I've stated the reasons I do have, and stand by them, because you're frankly not doing anything that's changing my mind. My intuition is saying you're scum, and that Nacho is posting in the same scum-chat that you are, especially given that apparent mental link the two of you have.
FoS: duckslikerain...?...
Also, was anyone else having trouble accessing the site yesterday?
@Azrael
Really? World Domination 2? Ancient history that had two scum teams, one with an alternate win condition, and where I died night 1?
While, much much more recently, I played against scum-you in Cyberspace, and where you were literally the only scum member I didn't pinpoint day 1? The game where your early game had almost exactly the same kind of overly 'whimsical' and predatory feel rather than the methodical approach you tend to take as town?
As for 'entrapment'... your 'case' on Iso was that he was running a gambit, badly. And how in the world would a theoretical town-Iso be able to respond to that in any way that wouldn't leave open avenues of attack? There was nothing inquisitive about that 'case'. You weren't asking, you were pouncing.
My reasoning's on the board now. I'm pretty certain Taredas and ced have made their reasoning clear as well. Your move.
Oh, really?
Because if you're going to bring up ancient history, then I would think you'd remember that my posting schedule in more recent years has been generally at best once per two days, which is what I was trying to do yesterday when I couldn't get the site to open. Ioday is the third day from my previous post. 'Really quiet'. Heh.
That last line is also blatant fearmongering, especially from someone that earlier said something about 'eh, I think we have enough data points'.
@Nachomamma (also, Re: Nachomamma, for the rest of you)
I find this whole post slightly incongruent with the fact that you voted me on the post directly before this. Especially given that your more recent posts imply that was a serious vote.
See above for what I meant by entrapment tactics. There was nothing Iso could possibly have said that wouldn't leave valid avenues of attack, and additionally Azrael sounded way too sure of himself.
...I also find it rather interesting that Azrael basically regurgitated the very same characterization of him that you state here.
Riddle me this, Nacho. You seem very interested in taking pressure off Azrael, without actually engaging anyone (well, other than myself, who you are voting) on the points against him. Why is that?
@Taredas
I didn't like the way he basically totally backed off Tammy with that huge apology and such. Felt a bit fake. Didn't feel fake enough for me to believe Azrael's 'case', though.
Vote: Cyan
Unvote: Cyan
Now.
Vote: Azrael. I don't like Iso's #85, but that doesn't detract from Azrael's overtheatrics and entrapment tactics enough.
...and ye gods, the new hyperlinking is ugly.
Vote: Deathjoey
FoS: SNL
Cantrip, Killjoy.
Unvote: Cantripmancer
Vote: SelesnyaNewLife