Join the Group doesn't have a target. (Even if you could target the original card on the stack, it would be gone from there by the time the copy resolves. [CR400.7])
I then cast Remand, which counters the original adventure spell and puts Champions of Archery back into my hand. Now Champions of Archery is in my hand, and I let the copy of the adventure spell which is on the stack resolve. The target of that copy of the original spell is Champions of Archery, which is put into the command zone from my hand. Is that the idea?
At that time you choose a legendary creature card in your hand as part of the instructions of the resolving spell. And the one you choose can be the card that recently returned to your hand.
608. Resolving Spells and Abilities
608.2d If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of
casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the
player announces these while applying the effect.....
Join the Group doesn't have a target. Understood. But if I'm understanding correctly, when Join the Group resolves, it IS possible for me to choose the card that was returned to my hand as the legendary creature that I want to put into the command zone. So... you're saying that this works?
Join the Group doesn't have a target, but the combo still works?
You would probably have to do something like cast it as an adventure, copy it somehow, return the original to your hand with something like Remand, and then let the copy resolve.
Just to make sure that I understand what you're saying... I cast Doublecast, then cast Champions of Archery as an adventure. A copy of the adventure spell is put on the stack, and I choose Champions of Archery as the target for that copy of the spell. I then cast Remand, which counters the original adventure spell and puts Champions of Archery back into my hand. Now Champions of Archery is in my hand, and I let the copy of the adventure spell which is on the stack resolve. The target of that copy of the original spell is Champions of Archery, which is put into the command zone from my hand. Is that the idea?
Trying to put a card from your hand into play while casting it would be like casting brainstorm and trying to put that same brainstorm on top of your library with its own effect.
No, does not work. It is on the stack when it is being cast and goes into exile right afterward.
That's a great explanation. Very clear. Just out of curiosity, though. What would happen if I attempted to imprint the adventure/sorcery side of Champions of Archery on Panoptic mirror, then used a card like Pull From Eternity or Riftsweeper to return the card from the exile zone. If I could manage to get Champions of Archery back into my hand again, could I use Panoptic Mirror's ability to put it into the command zone?
The specific adventure card that I'm about to ask about is not normally a legal card, even in casual formats, but the broader question isn't limited to that particular card. It's a general question about adventure cards and how they work. The card I want to know about is Champions of Archery, which is a Heroes of the Realm card. I have of proxy of it in one of my casual decks. Since this isn't, or at least isn't usually, a legal Magic card, there are likely no official rulings on it. However, the mechanics of adventure cards should be clearly defined.
If I have Champions of Archery in my hand, can I use the adventure (instant) side of it to cast the creature side of it from my hand? (I understand that I can't use both sides of the card at the same time, but in this case I'm only using the adventure side. I'm not casting the creature side.)
Edit: For clarification, would the card go to the command zone, leaving no valid target to be exiled?
In a multiplayer game, what happens if I use a card like Threaten to temporarily gain control of a permanent, then give control of that permanent to a different opponent using something like Zedruu the Greathearted? Does control of the permanent return to its owner at the end of the turn? Or does the second opponent maintain control of it indefinitely?
It will not. Damage always causes loss of life, but loss of life is not always damage.
Edit: Also the trigger is on casting spells and not drawing cards so I'm confused if I'm missing something in this situation?
Sorry. I wasn't suggesting an infinite combo. Just drawing a card whenever an enchantment is cast (causing an opponent to lose life).
Tatsunari, Toad Rider creates Keimi creature tokens, granting them the ability, "Whenever you cast an enchantment spell, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.” Will Curiosity combo with Keimi in the same manner that it does with Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind?
(This assumes that losing life qualifies as damage.)
The Gitrog Monster requires you to sacrifice a land during your upkeep step. If you don't, you have to sacrifice the creature. Suppose that I have a land like Nurturing Peatland or a Creature like Squirrel Wrangler in play. Both of these permanents have an activated ability whose cost is the sacrificing of a land. Can I activate such an ability in response to The Gitrog Monster's triggered ability, during my upkeep step? If I can, and I do, will that meet the land sacrifice requirement of The Gitrog Monster?
(If sacrificing a land to The Gitrog Monster was the cost of an ability, this obviously wouldn't work since you can't pay a single cost to satisfy two different abilities. But there doesn't appear to be any ability associated with The Gitrog Monster's requirement to sacrifice a land during your upkeep step.)
Grolnok, the Omnivore has an ability that reads, "Whenever a Frog you control attacks, mill three cards." Does this mean that, if I attack with three frogs, I mill nine cards? Or do I mill only three cards regardless of how many of my frogs are attacking at the same time?
Also, when lands are milled by Grolnok's ability, they do hit the graveyard before being exiled, right? If The Gitrog Monster is in play when a land is milled by Grolnok, do I get to draw a card?
Do tokens cease to exist when phased out? There are lots of seemingly authoritative sources that say yes, and lots of credible-looking sources that say no. Reference is often made to rule 704.5, which addresses state-based actions, but the only direct reference I can find is rule 704.5d which states "If a token is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist."
At one time there was a "phased out zone," but this has been eliminated. It makes sense that a token moving to another zone would cease to exist, so that's obviously how it used to work. Now that the phased-out zone has been eliminated, how does phasing affect tokens? Do tokens still cease to exist when they undergo phasing?
So, to confirm my understanding, in addition to using Frenetic Sliver's ability as a means of saving half of my slivers during a wrath, I can also use it to sacrifice slivers at will, for free, in order to gain some benefit from that. For example, if I want to sacrifice 20 of my slivers, with Syr Konrad, the Grim in play, I activate the ability on 26 slivers. On average, statistically, half of those coin tosses will be won, and 13 slivers will be returned to the battlefield at the beginning of my end step. This nets me 13 dead slivers, delivering 13 points of damage to my opponents. When the surviving slivers return to play at the beginning of the end step, I activate the ability on those 13 slivers again and (on average) half or 6/7 will die. This nets me 7 + 13 = 20 sacrificed slivers total, more or less, on average, by the end of the turn.
I understand now. You're saying that I CAN activate the ability multiple times, but the coin will only be flipped once anyway, since after the first activation the sliver has been removed from the battlefield and is no longer in play.
A follow-up question about priority:
After activating Frenetic Sliver's ability, the sliver returns to play at the beginning of the next end step in the event that I win the coin flip. Whenever a sliver returns to the battlefield at the beginning of the end step, if I am the active player, am I correct in expecting that I will receive priority and be able to activate the ability a second time? A second chance to try to kill my sliver in the same turn? (To benefit from having something like Syr Konrad, the Grim in play.)
If so-- if I get two shots at trying to kill my sliver per turn-- then ON AVERAGE I could use the ability to sac my slivers for free at will, since in most cases I will lose as many flips as I win (50/50). That's what I'm trying to do-- kill my slivers at will, for free.
I understand now. You're saying that I CAN activate the ability multiple times, but the coin will only be flipped once anyway, since after the first activation the sliver has been removed from the battlefield and is no longer in play.
Can I activate Frenetic Sliver's activated several times in succession, before the ability resolves, with the simple intention of sacrificing one or more of my slivers at no cost. In other words, using the ability to have free sac outlets for my slivers?
Join the Group doesn't have a target, but the combo still works?
The specific adventure card that I'm about to ask about is not normally a legal card, even in casual formats, but the broader question isn't limited to that particular card. It's a general question about adventure cards and how they work. The card I want to know about is Champions of Archery, which is a Heroes of the Realm card. I have of proxy of it in one of my casual decks. Since this isn't, or at least isn't usually, a legal Magic card, there are likely no official rulings on it. However, the mechanics of adventure cards should be clearly defined.
If I have Champions of Archery in my hand, can I use the adventure (instant) side of it to cast the creature side of it from my hand? (I understand that I can't use both sides of the card at the same time, but in this case I'm only using the adventure side. I'm not casting the creature side.)
Edit: For clarification, would the card go to the command zone, leaving no valid target to be exiled?
Sorry. I wasn't suggesting an infinite combo. Just drawing a card whenever an enchantment is cast (causing an opponent to lose life).
Edit: Thank you for that clarification. Would Lurking Roper enchanted with Curiosity and equipped with Viridian Longbow or Wolfhunter's Quiver draw you a card each time an enchantment is cast while Keimi is in play?
(This assumes that losing life qualifies as damage.)
(If sacrificing a land to The Gitrog Monster was the cost of an ability, this obviously wouldn't work since you can't pay a single cost to satisfy two different abilities. But there doesn't appear to be any ability associated with The Gitrog Monster's requirement to sacrifice a land during your upkeep step.)
Also, when lands are milled by Grolnok's ability, they do hit the graveyard before being exiled, right? If The Gitrog Monster is in play when a land is milled by Grolnok, do I get to draw a card?
At one time there was a "phased out zone," but this has been eliminated. It makes sense that a token moving to another zone would cease to exist, so that's obviously how it used to work. Now that the phased-out zone has been eliminated, how does phasing affect tokens? Do tokens still cease to exist when they undergo phasing?
So, to confirm my understanding, in addition to using Frenetic Sliver's ability as a means of saving half of my slivers during a wrath, I can also use it to sacrifice slivers at will, for free, in order to gain some benefit from that. For example, if I want to sacrifice 20 of my slivers, with Syr Konrad, the Grim in play, I activate the ability on 26 slivers. On average, statistically, half of those coin tosses will be won, and 13 slivers will be returned to the battlefield at the beginning of my end step. This nets me 13 dead slivers, delivering 13 points of damage to my opponents. When the surviving slivers return to play at the beginning of the end step, I activate the ability on those 13 slivers again and (on average) half or 6/7 will die. This nets me 7 + 13 = 20 sacrificed slivers total, more or less, on average, by the end of the turn.
After activating Frenetic Sliver's ability, the sliver returns to play at the beginning of the next end step in the event that I win the coin flip. Whenever a sliver returns to the battlefield at the beginning of the end step, if I am the active player, am I correct in expecting that I will receive priority and be able to activate the ability a second time? A second chance to try to kill my sliver in the same turn? (To benefit from having something like Syr Konrad, the Grim in play.)
If so-- if I get two shots at trying to kill my sliver per turn-- then ON AVERAGE I could use the ability to sac my slivers for free at will, since in most cases I will lose as many flips as I win (50/50). That's what I'm trying to do-- kill my slivers at will, for free.
Even if only 50% of the time it works every time.