Posting this as a separate message due to it not really being related to the conversation above:
Being a chronic brewer, there are all sorts of cards that I've tried to slot into the mainboard to make the deck unique enough to break through silver-bullet answers. Not looking for any particular feedback, but thought I'd share, and feedback is still welcome.
Whir of Invention: This on 0 can tutor up a Lotus Bloom at instant speed. if Pentad Prism becomes too much of a liability sitting on the field for a turn or two, perhaps Whir might be a decent replacement. Also thins out the deck and allows for artifact sideboard options to also be tutored up AND allows for fast mana-ramp/tutoring for sideboard fatties such as Wurmcoil Engine and Platinum Angel. However, this does cause deck-shuffling, which muddies up calculations for topdecks. Also, Simian Spirit Guide doesn't get to pay for Whir on 0.
As Foretold: Mostly in my tests with Tolaria West, but this allows you to directly cast your Lotus Blooms. Also allows for some other suspend staples, such as 1-of Living End's for removal and Ancestral Vision's for digging deep into the deck. My tests have unfortunately shown that the deck gets kind of clunky due to the heavy 3-mana slots, but it provides an interesting ability to dig fairly deep into the deck in the midgame, and also provides some versatility.
Isochron Scepter: I love this card too much for brewing. Angel's Grace fits under it, allowing for infinite fogs. In combination with some instant-speed cantrips such as Peer Through Depths and Opt, it could potentially prove as a useful value-engine. It does have some issues of being a vulnerable target on the field though, being an artifact and all.
Snapcaster Mage: 1-2 of these in the sideboard seems like an option vs BGx decks, especially since most players that know what Ad Naus Combo is won't bother to sideboard graveyard-hate.
Zombie Infestation: Alternate Lightning Storm-type effect that has literally won me games before against some control decks. The fact that it allows for an entirely different form of dealing damage across multiple targets makes it extremely difficult to answer correctly post-board, and circumvents cards like Runed Halo and Gideon of the Trials. Additional upsides: much more cast-able if drawn pre-combo, operable with much fewer cards in hand/library, and can win on occasion with just an Ad Nauseam. Downsides: Less likely to one-shot, and cannot win at instant speed or even in the same turn, which means you NEED another Angel's Grace or to leave a card or two in your library.
I'll add more things as I remember or test them ^_^.
Of everything that I see in your sideboard currently, Painful Truths is probably the best card to replace with Godhead of Awe. The second Hurkyl's Recall or the Spellskite are probably removable as well, depending on your meta and whether or not you want 2x Godheads.
As a sidenote, why do you Patrician's Scorn over other enchantment-removal options? I understand that it's useful in situations where you might not have mana to cast anything else, but options such as Wear // Tear have more utility and also will hurt you less on a naked Ad Nauseam (since it has a CMC of 3). Not to mention that it blows up your own Phyrexian Unlife on occasion o.O
I couldn't imagine boarding it against anything other than decks running Leyline of Sanctity. Am I missing something, or is it just personal preference?
Patrician's Scorn is a personal preference for decks that run problematic enchantments such as Leyline of Sanctity and sometimes Solemnity once in a blue moon. Hurkyl's Recall is just an answer that deals with artifacts in a way where I don't target thus it gets around hexproof, same with Patrician's Scorn. Painful Truths is definitely going to take a break for Godhead of Awe to see if it helps, especially against all the Phoenix decks running a muck.
I supposed Hurkyl's Recall is more of a meta-dependent option for what's getting played in your area; I don't see too many artifact decks, especially post-KCI, so I only run it as a 1-of in favor of spot removal. But of course I don't know your local meta, so if you find it helpful then I certainly won't stop you ;D.
I would like to know if Godhead is a preferable option to say, Path to Exile or Grafdigger's Cage, though. If you end up testing both, please do keep me posted, because I would love to tweak my sorta-outdated sideboard. Cheers fam.
Of everything that I see in your sideboard currently, Painful Truths is probably the best card to replace with Godhead of Awe. The second Hurkyl's Recall or the Spellskite are probably removable as well, depending on your meta and whether or not you want 2x Godheads.
As a sidenote, why do you Patrician's Scorn over other enchantment-removal options? I understand that it's useful in situations where you might not have mana to cast anything else, but options such as Wear // Tear have more utility and also will hurt you less on a naked Ad Nauseam (since it has a CMC of 3). Not to mention that it blows up your own Phyrexian Unlife on occasion o.O
I couldn't imagine boarding it against anything other than decks running Leyline of Sanctity. Am I missing something, or is it just personal preference?
Some Sideboards now show Godhead of Awe. I not sure that's a good Sideboard choice. It doesn't weaken the fast aggo Decks as far as i know. Against which Decks you would use it?
This will probably cover some things you already know, but just for completeness's sake I'm going to explain some background info as well.
Ad Nauseam usually wants to sideboard these threats versus decks that have enough dismantle your card advantage or your actual combo in some capacity (e.g. Blood Moon,Stony Silence,Runed Halo, you get the picture).
Now, the reason for picking one specific game-finisher is, simply, what decks struggle to kill it post-board the most. Grave Titan thrives against BGx decks and removal-light decks, Elspeth is practically unanswerable versus creature decks that can't beat into it (except for Spirits), and Dromoka is great against tempo and UBx. Crovax was a weird one that only really stuck around when Infect was the 'it' deck, but who knows, maybe it'll find a home to counter other decks later down the road.
The current decks that one might face in a competitive Modern environment where single threats might be useful are Death's Shadow, Dredge, Amulet Titan, Spirits, and BGx decks -- in short, tempo/attrition decks or combo decks that can go off faster than you on average. So what does Godhead do that the other aforementioned cards don't? For starters, it's a 4/4 flyer playable on T3. This is a major advantage against tempo decks -- unless they have an [[Echoing Truth]] or something, they're unlikely to be able to 1-for-1 something like that. It has a CMC of 5, so Spell Queller can't nab it. And lastly, its Humility-styled effect almost completely neuters Primeval Titan and makes Dredge's explosiveness more manageable.
Now, Godhead does have a few problems, such as its restrictive casting cost, the fact that it can get traded for a Flame Slash or Assassin's Trophy or its ineffectiveness versus tokens or decks that don't care about attacking. So if you don't have too many high-tier decks in you playgroup, you may want to consider other finishers. Hell, you could leave them out entirely -- I don't run alternate wincons in my sideboard, since people like to watch me play whenever I'm at the LGS, and will know to keep removal in for Godhead.
Hopefully this was useful, it's been a while since I've posted on here. Feel free to poke me if you have other questions about the deck.
I appreciate the replies from eveybody here. The next time my brother goes to FNM, I'll be sure to send him packing an Open the Armory and Cartouche of Strength / Wheel of Sun and Moon. It's a little heavier on the 3CMC - side, but since it's mostly in the sideboard, I'm pretty sure that should be fine. When I find a Guttural Response, I'll probably throw that in as well.
I can try to update and provide a list when that happens. I appreciate the responses.
Also, happy Bogles hey-day with that GP Toronto win and the unbannings. I agree that the deck seems to be very well-positioned for the near future :D.
I personally have not played this deck a TON, per se, but this is something I have more or less thrown together to get my brother back into MTG.
This being said, I just have a few (hopefully) quick questions as to deck options:
--I've been seeing a lot of Seal of Primordiums in sideboard lists, but I've also seen Disenchant and Deglamer/other 2-drop instants of the like. What are the particular benefits of running the instants over Seal? The only benefits I can think of for Seal is that you don't have to pop it straight up (saves mana for later turns and avoids discard) and pumps up Ethereal Armor, but I feel like Disenchant would be better here.
--When I've used this deck, I seem to rely very heavily on Dryad Arbor as a backup Bogle on a regular basis. Is this considered more correct, or should you generally wait for more creatures to draw in normal circumstances?
--I think I know the answer to this one, but is there any decent answer to discard that isn't Leyline of Sanctity? I have a playset, but I'm using them in my deck, which needs them equally as much (Ad Nauseam). The best I've come up with are Noxious Revival and Aegis of the Gods, but these are a stretch at best.
--Until I can acquire Horizon Canopy copies, how should I adjust a deck to compensate? Do I just cut a land or two and throw in some more enchantments?
--What spice have any of you thrown into your decks? My brother on more than one occasion has used his 1-of Mana Tithe and loved every second of it, and if I can find something else to throw in there, that would be awesome. Even just a singleton in the sideboard is good to know.
Thank you guys in advance, this seems like a nice homely community that really knows the deck well. Look forward to the responses!
Sultai Rainforest deck! I've been testing this out to reasonable success. It functions very similarly to the Mono-Green list posted in the primer, but has a lot more flexibility, thanks to the Dark Petition/Seasons Past combination.
The mono-green primer deck doesn't have any card draw other than Aurora itself, and because of this, I opted to throw in the Ballistas instead. Reservoir doesn't have as much versatility as Ballista does, so I thought that the mono-color deck would require that versatility.
If you were considering to run Reservoir instead, however, I'd just cut one Ballista. You could probably pull out an Animist's Awakening, as that card is only somewhat important later on in the game anyways.
I will also post a Sultai list in a moment which does run the Reservoir :D.
After the ramping up, you cast The Great Aurora, play a bunch of lands, play Ugin and/or Nissa... and then? Ticking up Ugin seems a slow way to win, am I missing something?
The two simplest and most synergistic win conditions are Aetherflux Reservoir and Walking Ballista. Once you Aurora twice or three times, chances are that you will have crazy amount of mana(once Zendikar Resurgent hits the field, you can float 20-30 mana easily). This allows you to cast Reservoir and a ton of spells, or cast Walking Ballista for lethal. It sounds strange, but these have proved the two most successful win conditions.
Other win conditions could be Secure the Wastes and other X costed spells. There's a lot of versatility in the win condition spot, as you will have basically whatever resources you need to make it work
In the mono-green list, Nissa, Worldwaker is essentially a one-mana planeswalker, and allows you to cast a spell for free every turn. I would definitely consider Nissa, Vital Force in a list that's running more colors, though. It seems worth testing.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I've had people telling me that they'd trade it for $40 or so, but I didn't feel like that was as much as I'd be able to get for it. Glad I asked then o.O
Also, what would Modern staples in Korean be worth on average in non-foil. Grim Flayer, for instance?
Hello guys! Just found this thread, very happy to have. I open a lot of Korean booster boxes, ad recently I opened a foil Fatal Push. How much do you guys think I should be able to get rid of it for?
Also, is there a typical multiplier for certain languages?
You might be able to cut a Disallow for another Torrential Gearhulk, but otherwise the list looks solid. I normally don't play Dragon Control but I do play control frequently, and if the list has been working for you then congrats :P. Not many control decks are seeing a terrible amount of success anymore ^_^.
Also, what are your thoughts on Disallow vs Void Shatter or Dissipate?
Bx control can be kinda difficult to run unless you're running blue as well. However, the best control deck I can think of in recent memory that has high-impact and high-value engines is Seasons Control. I have a Frontier list if you'd like me to post
Being a chronic brewer, there are all sorts of cards that I've tried to slot into the mainboard to make the deck unique enough to break through silver-bullet answers. Not looking for any particular feedback, but thought I'd share, and feedback is still welcome.
Whir of Invention: This on 0 can tutor up a Lotus Bloom at instant speed. if Pentad Prism becomes too much of a liability sitting on the field for a turn or two, perhaps Whir might be a decent replacement. Also thins out the deck and allows for artifact sideboard options to also be tutored up AND allows for fast mana-ramp/tutoring for sideboard fatties such as Wurmcoil Engine and Platinum Angel. However, this does cause deck-shuffling, which muddies up calculations for topdecks. Also, Simian Spirit Guide doesn't get to pay for Whir on 0.
Tolaria West: Similarly to Whir, this allows for Lotus Bloom tutoring, along with 0-drop singletons that might be beneficial from the sideboard (e.g. Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact, Bojuka Bog, Tormod's Crypt). Has similar issues to Whir, though, as well as only being useful at sorcery speed.
As Foretold: Mostly in my tests with Tolaria West, but this allows you to directly cast your Lotus Blooms. Also allows for some other suspend staples, such as 1-of Living End's for removal and Ancestral Vision's for digging deep into the deck. My tests have unfortunately shown that the deck gets kind of clunky due to the heavy 3-mana slots, but it provides an interesting ability to dig fairly deep into the deck in the midgame, and also provides some versatility.
Isochron Scepter: I love this card too much for brewing. Angel's Grace fits under it, allowing for infinite fogs. In combination with some instant-speed cantrips such as Peer Through Depths and Opt, it could potentially prove as a useful value-engine. It does have some issues of being a vulnerable target on the field though, being an artifact and all.
Snapcaster Mage: 1-2 of these in the sideboard seems like an option vs BGx decks, especially since most players that know what Ad Naus Combo is won't bother to sideboard graveyard-hate.
Zombie Infestation: Alternate Lightning Storm-type effect that has literally won me games before against some control decks. The fact that it allows for an entirely different form of dealing damage across multiple targets makes it extremely difficult to answer correctly post-board, and circumvents cards like Runed Halo and Gideon of the Trials. Additional upsides: much more cast-able if drawn pre-combo, operable with much fewer cards in hand/library, and can win on occasion with just an Ad Nauseam. Downsides: Less likely to one-shot, and cannot win at instant speed or even in the same turn, which means you NEED another Angel's Grace or to leave a card or two in your library.
I'll add more things as I remember or test them ^_^.
I supposed Hurkyl's Recall is more of a meta-dependent option for what's getting played in your area; I don't see too many artifact decks, especially post-KCI, so I only run it as a 1-of in favor of spot removal. But of course I don't know your local meta, so if you find it helpful then I certainly won't stop you ;D.
I would like to know if Godhead is a preferable option to say, Path to Exile or Grafdigger's Cage, though. If you end up testing both, please do keep me posted, because I would love to tweak my sorta-outdated sideboard. Cheers fam.
As a sidenote, why do you Patrician's Scorn over other enchantment-removal options? I understand that it's useful in situations where you might not have mana to cast anything else, but options such as Wear // Tear have more utility and also will hurt you less on a naked Ad Nauseam (since it has a CMC of 3). Not to mention that it blows up your own Phyrexian Unlife on occasion o.O
I couldn't imagine boarding it against anything other than decks running Leyline of Sanctity. Am I missing something, or is it just personal preference?
This will probably cover some things you already know, but just for completeness's sake I'm going to explain some background info as well.
Cards like Godhead of Awe give the deck an alternative means to winning the game that doesn't require comboing; just a Lotus Bloom or Pentad Prism and 2-3 lands will let you cast something that has enough of an affect of maybe winning the game by itself. This role has also been filled by Grave Titan, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Crovax, Ascendant Hero, and Dragonlord Dromoka.
Ad Nauseam usually wants to sideboard these threats versus decks that have enough dismantle your card advantage or your actual combo in some capacity (e.g. Blood Moon,Stony Silence,Runed Halo, you get the picture).
Now, the reason for picking one specific game-finisher is, simply, what decks struggle to kill it post-board the most. Grave Titan thrives against BGx decks and removal-light decks, Elspeth is practically unanswerable versus creature decks that can't beat into it (except for Spirits), and Dromoka is great against tempo and UBx. Crovax was a weird one that only really stuck around when Infect was the 'it' deck, but who knows, maybe it'll find a home to counter other decks later down the road.
The current decks that one might face in a competitive Modern environment where single threats might be useful are Death's Shadow, Dredge, Amulet Titan, Spirits, and BGx decks -- in short, tempo/attrition decks or combo decks that can go off faster than you on average. So what does Godhead do that the other aforementioned cards don't? For starters, it's a 4/4 flyer playable on T3. This is a major advantage against tempo decks -- unless they have an [[Echoing Truth]] or something, they're unlikely to be able to 1-for-1 something like that. It has a CMC of 5, so Spell Queller can't nab it. And lastly, its Humility-styled effect almost completely neuters Primeval Titan and makes Dredge's explosiveness more manageable.
Now, Godhead does have a few problems, such as its restrictive casting cost, the fact that it can get traded for a Flame Slash or Assassin's Trophy or its ineffectiveness versus tokens or decks that don't care about attacking. So if you don't have too many high-tier decks in you playgroup, you may want to consider other finishers. Hell, you could leave them out entirely -- I don't run alternate wincons in my sideboard, since people like to watch me play whenever I'm at the LGS, and will know to keep removal in for Godhead.
Hopefully this was useful, it's been a while since I've posted on here. Feel free to poke me if you have other questions about the deck.
I can try to update and provide a list when that happens. I appreciate the responses.
Also, happy Bogles hey-day with that GP Toronto win and the unbannings. I agree that the deck seems to be very well-positioned for the near future :D.
I personally have not played this deck a TON, per se, but this is something I have more or less thrown together to get my brother back into MTG.
This being said, I just have a few (hopefully) quick questions as to deck options:
--I've been seeing a lot of Seal of Primordiums in sideboard lists, but I've also seen Disenchant and Deglamer/other 2-drop instants of the like. What are the particular benefits of running the instants over Seal? The only benefits I can think of for Seal is that you don't have to pop it straight up (saves mana for later turns and avoids discard) and pumps up Ethereal Armor, but I feel like Disenchant would be better here.
--When I've used this deck, I seem to rely very heavily on Dryad Arbor as a backup Bogle on a regular basis. Is this considered more correct, or should you generally wait for more creatures to draw in normal circumstances?
--I think I know the answer to this one, but is there any decent answer to discard that isn't Leyline of Sanctity? I have a playset, but I'm using them in my deck, which needs them equally as much (Ad Nauseam). The best I've come up with are Noxious Revival and Aegis of the Gods, but these are a stretch at best.
--Until I can acquire Horizon Canopy copies, how should I adjust a deck to compensate? Do I just cut a land or two and throw in some more enchantments?
--What spice have any of you thrown into your decks? My brother on more than one occasion has used his 1-of Mana Tithe and loved every second of it, and if I can find something else to throw in there, that would be awesome. Even just a singleton in the sideboard is good to know.
Thank you guys in advance, this seems like a nice homely community that really knows the deck well. Look forward to the responses!
Note: Ob Nixilis Reignited's ultimate in the sideboard is an alternate win condition. Also, thanks to aguyyouknow for suggesting Nissa, Vital Force!
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
Creatures (5):
4 Jaddi Offshoot
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Enchantments (6):
4 Retreat to Kazandu
1 Retreat to Hagra
1 Zendikar Resurgent
Planeswalkers (4):
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Instants/Sorceries (20):
4 Dark Petition
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Nissa's Renewal
3 The Great Aurora
1 Seasons Past
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Blighted Woodland
1 Blighted Fen
11 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Negate
3 Natural Obsolescence
2 Display of Dominance
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Virulent Plague
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Seasons Past
If you were considering to run Reservoir instead, however, I'd just cut one Ballista. You could probably pull out an Animist's Awakening, as that card is only somewhat important later on in the game anyways.
I will also post a Sultai list in a moment which does run the Reservoir :D.
The two simplest and most synergistic win conditions are Aetherflux Reservoir and Walking Ballista. Once you Aurora twice or three times, chances are that you will have crazy amount of mana(once Zendikar Resurgent hits the field, you can float 20-30 mana easily). This allows you to cast Reservoir and a ton of spells, or cast Walking Ballista for lethal. It sounds strange, but these have proved the two most successful win conditions.
Other win conditions could be Secure the Wastes and other X costed spells. There's a lot of versatility in the win condition spot, as you will have basically whatever resources you need to make it work
Thank you for the suggestion
Also, what would Modern staples in Korean be worth on average in non-foil. Grim Flayer, for instance?
Also, is there a typical multiplier for certain languages?
Also, what are your thoughts on Disallow vs Void Shatter or Dissipate?