Hmm, interesting, it looks similar to my list, except he went with a 2-2 split of RR/thoughtseize as opposed to only one. I also disagree with the dragon since it seems inferior to thundermaw, which was only run as a 2 of most of the time.
EDIT: also noticed that he didn't choose to run abrupt decay in his 75, which I also find a little questionable, but I guess this is just a test list.
As you can see, the mainboard has a lot of variation in it's removal suite, which allows for favorable removal of pretty much anything, while also running heavy disruption in the form of Thoughtseize/Lifebane Zombie. The rational behind the former is to be able to keep pace with the miriad of different aggro/midrange variants that pop up, and the latter is to keep their hand manageable, and to make sure that control heavy decks are made to go at our pace by losing their most relevant card in hand.
Good to see that this thread is easy to find, I have been looking at the card pool of creatures that we have available to us, and this is the list that I've come up with:
The deck build give a good first matchup vs aggro, and then sideboards into massive anti-control tools, while also having some extra options for the aggro and midrange matchups.
So with regards to the new rules changes to sideboarding, is it worth boarding in more cards than you take out? I ask because if you side in 10 cards and only take out 5 you will have a 65 card main deck, and this will mess with land ratios increasing the chance of screw. On the other hand it would allow decks to board in more cards against problematic match ups without having to cut threats.
Seems way, way worse than Sire of Insanity.
And its not like control hate is even necessary right now.
In other news, I just played against Naya for 4 hours straight and won 20% of the games... ****.
Naya Midrange? Aggro? Were they killing you with one or two guys or a whole team? How were they able to efficiently deal with your threats given that their removal package is worse than ours?
If you could answer the above questions it should help us find where you went wrong.
First, please go read BBD's or CVM's article on the Junk archetype. Thragtusk IS NOT their primary plan against most midrange decks. I'm not saying board out all your Tusks, but there are other higher impact cards.
RR against a deck that abuses GY? Opponent discards Unburial Rites, Acidic Slime. You lose.
You can't expect to go 1 for 1 against Rites with your removal and expect to come out ahead. Save all your removal you want, Sin Collector is a real card.
Ok, once again starting from the top:
I'm aware that tusk isn't a win con for the junk deck, however it IS one of their most abusable resto angel targets in the deck. After hitting AoS, their gameplan revolves around them killing you via multiple playing/rezzing of tusks + akward LD via acidic slime/craterhoof behemoth, if you take out the tusks thne they are only left with the latter. Personally I name unburial rites as the second card, since that makes their deck into a crappy midrange deck with a high curve without their graveyard utility.
Second, against RR...you are aware that ground seal is a thing right? I assume you've also seen that most lists run 2 MB with one in side? if you happen to resolve a RR, and to a less extent Sire, do you know what hoops they have to jump through to get out of that? They need to topdeck an answer to ground seal within 2-3 turns lest you kill them with the damage from Sire alone, and jund happens to run a creature suite that is capable of killing someone if they are not answered immediately.
Lastly, it's true, you can't come out with a 1 for 1 against rites, it's impossible to come out 1 for 1 against a flashback card, since they get two uses(Barring GY hate of some kind) + enter the battlefield triggers. But on that same coin, you can say the same for most of our creature suite, most are 2 for 1's upon entering the battlefield. This deck on the other hand has far fewer cards that net them value, and most of those are easily hate-able due to the amount of graveyard hate we have access to.
I see where you are coming from, but from my perspective, having played against junk multiple times, I find that a ground seal + SG to turn them into a sub par midrange deck, turns the game into a much more manageable matchup and makes cards like RR/Sire golden against them.
-Thragtusks is 'terrible' against Jund in Rites. Most lists are down to 3, and are even considering going to 2 MD. Your main goal as Junk is to accelerate into Slime/Resto against most non-aggro strategies.
-Garruk Relentless comes down a turn quicker than Primal. There are no easy ways to deal with it other than Return or spending 5 mana playing your own. Bonfire/Return are NOT burns spells.
-Jund runs 2 putrefy. You have to first have the card when they play Obzedat. Not have it stripped by a Collector, or have blown it on a Slime that's being blinked. Obzedat is still good in this MU.
Alright, lets answer these in order:
Thragtusk isn't "terrible against any deck, in fact against a deck like jund that relies on efficient removal to keep the board under control while putting pressure, this card hinders both. Not sure what your junk decks play in your area, but it sounds like they need to get their acts straight.
Next, I'm not sure what you mean by "Bonfire/Return are NOT burns spells.", since they accomplish their roles of field Clearance/Discard + Burn, but I can assure you that if I'm on the play and I have 5 mana the turn after garruk relentless hits play, that RR now reads target opponent discards three cards and loses a planeswalker. Not sure how that play doesn't deal with it easily, same case with bonfire since their decks run mana dorks/wolfs which are also fried. (Albeit at a higher mana cost of 7 if hardcasting to kill garruk)
Lastly, I will concede that you do need to have removal at the right time for it to work, however that is true of most answers. The chance of your opponent hitting the putrefy/ you using it are things that can happen. Does that make obzedat unanswerable? The answer is no, thragtusk and kessig are two ways to deal with it without even needing a kill spell, Olivia is also a thing.
EDIT: Nath'd by DarkRit and his broken ability to generate black mana faster than me on the last point.
I don't really like SG in this MU as they have way too many angles to attack you from. If you get their AoS, they'll just Slime/Angel/Obzedat/Garruk you.
The thing about all those other threats...they don't really matter, slime is the only one I would even care about, Obzedat hasn't mattered since putrefy was announced, and Garruk doesn't usually live beyond a turn due to all the burn jund packs. Honestly I would put in SG just calling AoS/Thragtusk, then the matchup comes down to you 2 for 1ing them with pretty much every threat in the deck while 1 for 1ing anything that matters with the superb removal suite.
Just throwing ideas out there, it might be too slow and we could pack maybe something else like Dreadbore and/Abrupt Decay
I disagree, instant speed hard removal is worth it's weight in gold in this format with cards like Rancor/Resto Angel/Obzedat/etc. I've actually put all my dreadbore's in the side, just because of how good putrefy has been in midrange/control matchups. You also will need it to be able to get rid of cards like opposing Sire's and resto+thragtusk plays. It also throws a wrench into opposing kessig plays.
i wasn't expecting much Junk Reanimator here (in my local meta there is only 1 player with junk reanimator) and was facing a lot more aggro/control decks.
so i've moved the ground seals sideboard and added the desecration demon, cause its good against both.
As usual garruk to me is MVP.
Won all my matches today thru 5 rounds + top4, (id the last of the first 5 rounds).
i didn't miss liliana, and here at least, with the more controlling decks packing a lot of counters and (far/away) and turn/burn its getting kind of hard to win the attrition battle, imo.
My list is similar to this, I honestly want to just put in Liliana instead of Sire, SoI is only good against Control/some aggro matchups, whereas liliana is good against pretty much any deck except re animator. (And with a ground seal it's even good against that)
Instead of the Nighthawks, why not just put in 2 more abrupt decay? Aggro can ill afford to have us 1v1 their early drops, and with decay you can also get some nice instant removal in case they bloodrush one of their guys. More putrefy would also be good if you go up against slower decks, but against blitz decay and slip are still the MVP's.
I saw this card making appearances in Jund decks and was wondering if it made the cut against control and Midrange, and whether it was SB or MB material over Rakdos' Return.
Sire of Insanity
Creature - Demon
At the beginning of each end step, each player discards his or her hand.
6/4
Pros
- Can be resolved against control via Cavern of Souls
- Gets around Revelation due to them pitching all the cards anyway
- Is able to work against the Midrange mirror due to prevalence of sorcery speed removal aside from cards like Putrefy, meaning they will lose their hand before they can kill it.
Cons
- 6 Mana
- Folds to Unsummon/instant removal effects
- Makes you pitch your hand as well.
Unflinching Courage, wanted to go with the rare, but locking into heavy UR this early seemed like a bad idea, also there is very little in terms of good GW in the pack which will help signals.
Picked Z.T. Ancient here, a 7/5 body for 5 with a decent ability is hard to deal with, and RG isn't the hardest to splash for if I end up in either of those colors by the end.
My fear with Bonfire is that my deck is a little removal heavy, I think 10-12 removal cards. So I'm always afraid that I'll miracle Bonfire and he'll have 1 creature out because I dreadbore'd something T2 and then searing spear'd something T3. But with Mortars I can at least plan out 2 for 1s and gain advantage that way.
But remember it also domes them, a miracle bonfire for 8 that only hits 1 creatures is still outstanding, since it leaves them 8 points closer to death, or removes 8 counters from a planeswalker that is causing problems.
Hmm, interesting, it looks similar to my list, except he went with a 2-2 split of RR/thoughtseize as opposed to only one. I also disagree with the dragon since it seems inferior to thundermaw, which was only run as a 2 of most of the time.
EDIT: also noticed that he didn't choose to run abrupt decay in his 75, which I also find a little questionable, but I guess this is just a test list.
So from what I get from this, you plan to pay nine mana to kill their dude with monsterous?...sounds...a little extreme.
In any case here is the deck I've been tweaking:
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Desecration Demon
2x Lifebane Zombie
3x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Sylvan Caryatid
Spells (16)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Aprupt Decay
3x Magma Jet
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Fury of the gods
1x Deadbridge Chant
Planeswalkers (3)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Vraska, the unseen
Lands (25)
2x Swamp
3x Forest
4x Temple of Abaddon
3x Stomping ground
4x Blood Crypt
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Rakdos Guildgate
3x Golgari Guildgate
3x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Slaughter Games
3x Rakdos' Return
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Putrefy
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Deadbridge Chant
1x Savage Summoning
As you can see, the mainboard has a lot of variation in it's removal suite, which allows for favorable removal of pretty much anything, while also running heavy disruption in the form of Thoughtseize/Lifebane Zombie. The rational behind the former is to be able to keep pace with the miriad of different aggro/midrange variants that pop up, and the latter is to keep their hand manageable, and to make sure that control heavy decks are made to go at our pace by losing their most relevant card in hand.
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Desecration Demon
2x Lifebane Zombie
3x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Sylvan Caryatid
Spells (16)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Aprupt Decay
3x Magma Jet
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Fury of the gods
1x Deadbridge Chant
Planeswalkers (3)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Vraska, the unseen
Lands (25)
2x Swamp
3x Forest
4x Temple of Abaddon
3x Stomping ground
4x Blood Crypt
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Rakdos Guildgate
3x Golgari Guildgate
3x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Slaughter Games
3x Rakdos' Return
2x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Putrefy
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Deadbridge Chant
1x Savage Summoning
The deck build give a good first matchup vs aggro, and then sideboards into massive anti-control tools, while also having some extra options for the aggro and midrange matchups.
Naya Midrange? Aggro? Were they killing you with one or two guys or a whole team? How were they able to efficiently deal with your threats given that their removal package is worse than ours?
If you could answer the above questions it should help us find where you went wrong.
Ok, once again starting from the top:
I'm aware that tusk isn't a win con for the junk deck, however it IS one of their most abusable resto angel targets in the deck. After hitting AoS, their gameplan revolves around them killing you via multiple playing/rezzing of tusks + akward LD via acidic slime/craterhoof behemoth, if you take out the tusks thne they are only left with the latter. Personally I name unburial rites as the second card, since that makes their deck into a crappy midrange deck with a high curve without their graveyard utility.
Second, against RR...you are aware that ground seal is a thing right? I assume you've also seen that most lists run 2 MB with one in side? if you happen to resolve a RR, and to a less extent Sire, do you know what hoops they have to jump through to get out of that? They need to topdeck an answer to ground seal within 2-3 turns lest you kill them with the damage from Sire alone, and jund happens to run a creature suite that is capable of killing someone if they are not answered immediately.
Lastly, it's true, you can't come out with a 1 for 1 against rites, it's impossible to come out 1 for 1 against a flashback card, since they get two uses(Barring GY hate of some kind) + enter the battlefield triggers. But on that same coin, you can say the same for most of our creature suite, most are 2 for 1's upon entering the battlefield. This deck on the other hand has far fewer cards that net them value, and most of those are easily hate-able due to the amount of graveyard hate we have access to.
I see where you are coming from, but from my perspective, having played against junk multiple times, I find that a ground seal + SG to turn them into a sub par midrange deck, turns the game into a much more manageable matchup and makes cards like RR/Sire golden against them.
Alright, lets answer these in order:
Thragtusk isn't "terrible against any deck, in fact against a deck like jund that relies on efficient removal to keep the board under control while putting pressure, this card hinders both. Not sure what your junk decks play in your area, but it sounds like they need to get their acts straight.
Next, I'm not sure what you mean by "Bonfire/Return are NOT burns spells.", since they accomplish their roles of field Clearance/Discard + Burn, but I can assure you that if I'm on the play and I have 5 mana the turn after garruk relentless hits play, that RR now reads target opponent discards three cards and loses a planeswalker. Not sure how that play doesn't deal with it easily, same case with bonfire since their decks run mana dorks/wolfs which are also fried. (Albeit at a higher mana cost of 7 if hardcasting to kill garruk)
Lastly, I will concede that you do need to have removal at the right time for it to work, however that is true of most answers. The chance of your opponent hitting the putrefy/ you using it are things that can happen. Does that make obzedat unanswerable? The answer is no, thragtusk and kessig are two ways to deal with it without even needing a kill spell, Olivia is also a thing.
EDIT: Nath'd by DarkRit and his broken ability to generate black mana faster than me on the last point.
The thing about all those other threats...they don't really matter, slime is the only one I would even care about, Obzedat hasn't mattered since putrefy was announced, and Garruk doesn't usually live beyond a turn due to all the burn jund packs. Honestly I would put in SG just calling AoS/Thragtusk, then the matchup comes down to you 2 for 1ing them with pretty much every threat in the deck while 1 for 1ing anything that matters with the superb removal suite.
I disagree, instant speed hard removal is worth it's weight in gold in this format with cards like Rancor/Resto Angel/Obzedat/etc. I've actually put all my dreadbore's in the side, just because of how good putrefy has been in midrange/control matchups. You also will need it to be able to get rid of cards like opposing Sire's and resto+thragtusk plays. It also throws a wrench into opposing kessig plays.
My list is similar to this, I honestly want to just put in Liliana instead of Sire, SoI is only good against Control/some aggro matchups, whereas liliana is good against pretty much any deck except re animator. (And with a ground seal it's even good against that)
Instead of the Nighthawks, why not just put in 2 more abrupt decay? Aggro can ill afford to have us 1v1 their early drops, and with decay you can also get some nice instant removal in case they bloodrush one of their guys. More putrefy would also be good if you go up against slower decks, but against blitz decay and slip are still the MVP's.
Sire of Insanity
Creature - Demon
At the beginning of each end step, each player discards his or her hand.
6/4
Pros
- Can be resolved against control via Cavern of Souls
- Gets around Revelation due to them pitching all the cards anyway
- Is able to work against the Midrange mirror due to prevalence of sorcery speed removal aside from cards like Putrefy, meaning they will lose their hand before they can kill it.
Cons
- 6 Mana
- Folds to Unsummon/instant removal effects
- Makes you pitch your hand as well.
Thoughts?
But remember it also domes them, a miracle bonfire for 8 that only hits 1 creatures is still outstanding, since it leaves them 8 points closer to death, or removes 8 counters from a planeswalker that is causing problems.