I'm not necessarily arguging against RB, but RBW (I find color consistency to be victimized if we push tri-color in a blood moon meta.) I recognize there is some merit to RB, since it has more one drop spells due to Bump in the Night. The sideboard is also arguably stronger, since sometimes hte only white card we side in is path to exile. At least black would give fatal push, Rain of Gore, Rakdos Charm, and collective brutality (odd choices, but brutality is a "burn" spell by itself.
Your last statement is where I think the final nail in the coffin arrives when considering different color combinations. Black doesn't provide QUITE ENOUGH yet to justify dropping white altogether. If Deathrite Shaman were still legal, then yeah, I'd say RB were superior. But, for the time being, we would need a 2 mana burn spell that provides direct burn with some additional effect. It's really a shame Rakdos charm doesn't help burn at all main deck. There were quite a few good effects they could have packed in: deal 2 damage to target creature or player, destroy target artifact, remove two cards in a graveyard from the game. I would even be okay with a RB enhancement or 3 mana planeswalker (something burn desperately needs.) Collective brutality almost made the cut, but 2 damage to gain 2 life was not good enough.
I am definitely okay with doing testing on the RB front. I have both a hyper aggro and 1 drop RB emphasis with Bomat Courier I want to try. Here is the basic idea behind it:
That's more or less the idea. You want to play low cost, high efficiency spells and maximize the number of them you have through Bomat Courier. The higher cost spells are situational and thrown into the sideboard. I forgot how good Rakdos Charm was in this meta. Built in Relic, punishes affinity, new goblins, and mardu tokens, artifact hate.
I want to preface and say I don't intend to be the guy that screams "No you're wrong!" but I want to provide an example why the list above isn't the way I'd go by using a rather extreme example (because I can name a ton of little scenarios or stress something in order to make my point.) In your list you've axed Sovereign's Bite in the main, Eidolon of the Great Revel, and added two shard volleys in the place most lists run lightning helix (or as I propose Sovereign's bite) you did this in order to bring in some more hasty creatures as well as some more speed. However, I'm going to attempt to reveal why I think pure speed isn't cutting it with an example that would occur if you drew a hand of everything you replaced. So let's say you start with a hand of..
Two Bomat Couriers, Two Shard Volley, Two lands, a Grim Lavamancer, and some other card. Versus:
Two Eidolon of the Great Revels, Two lightning helix/Sovereign's Bite, Two lands, and two other random cards. I believe the second list is stronger even if your first list is faster. The problem Bomat has is two fold. First he's only doing one damage per turn that he lands a blow. If your opponent has a bigger threat on the board he's stone walled and can't do any damage. If he dies before you sac him then his primary purpose of providing reach is wasted. You could make the argument that they used removal but that isn't always the case either. Liliana the Last hope can kill him by pinging him, some other creatures bring in battlefield effects that might ping him, and he could be hit with something like Searing Blaze.
The hand I outlined above is indeed slower than the hand you proposed but look at what it has going for it. Two Eidolons in most games back to back could be killer. Against your list that has more one drops it can be down right punishing. If you don't draw anymore lands then those Shard Volleys end up being dead cards or major hindrances if you're forced to use them. The Lightning Helix/Sovereign Bite hand threatens you with 6 damage and 6 life gain and you have no method of preventing it. Against most aggro decks you might be in a situation where those Bomats can't reliably attack and if you do manage to get the effect off you've still spent mana in order to get cards back rather than dealing immediate damage to your opponent. So while the hand I listed above, Rakdos or RW is slower it's a far more powerful hand. This is why "pure speed" is kind of missing the mark versus consistency. Slow doesn't always equate to bad if that slow really makes it hard for your opponent to function. It's especially bad if your opponent can't rid themselves of those eidolons and if you're forced to cast through your own it isn't to bad when Sovereign Bite and Lightning Helix will ensure you only take 1 damage even if both Eidolon's hit the field.
See why Sovereign Bite is so good and should be mainboarded? Running Bump in the Night main as your only black spell (again main board) is mostly playing mono red with a single splash for a single card. It's no different than a RW list only running Boros Charm (nearly ALL RW lists are running both Charm and Helix even if the number of Helix is two.) main board and there's a reason for it. I know the desire to make a RB list to be "very" different in playstyle from white is temping but there's no reason to ignore the tried and true formulae at times. Instead, you have to look to the side board as the reason to switch to black and ensure your list is as close to the tried and true list as possible. It's just that consistent. Our biggest weakness is not having access to both Destructive Revelry and Path to Exile at the same time. By a single Sacred Foundry or Stomping Ground you have to pick one or the other. I'm thinking Path might be the better choice over Revelry.
Finally I want to point out that we don't want Fatal Push it just isn't good enough in our current meta. There are too many threats we need to get rid of immediately that Fatal Push just doesn't touch. It's tempting because it's one mana but at the same time it falls significantly short. There's also the problem that the most reliable means of activating Fatal Push is by triggering a fetch but wouldn't we rather be saving our fetches for Searing Blaze? It just doesn't mesh well with our strategies.
Again, not trying to shut you down! If you want to test with that build go for it. I can be off base and wrong and it could turn out better in practice than on paper. I don't want to ever point to someone and say "You're wrong." I think I'm catching Eclonitis and have just been really analyzing our choices and becoming pickier about what is and isn't playable which there's nothing wrong with. Also being part of a team has changed the way I look at deck building in general.
What we do have going Black is as I mentioned, Contaminated Ground which is superior to Molten Rain. We also have access to Rakdos Charm which as you acknowledged is great for the current meta. If you're going black go for that instead of simply more one drops. We already have the more one drops play via Bump in the Night.
Next I want to address is Boros Charm having multiple modes. This is true but the times that they come up and matter for a game finish is probably about as often as I close out games with a six mana flash back finish from a bump in the night or two. I've won quite a few games with this finish but not enough to matter. I've played Naya Burn and RW burn as well (Burn is the only archetype I seriously play) and I've rarely used the other modes for Boros Charm. Sometimes I pushed through leyline of sanctity with double strike victories or saved my creatures with make creatures indestructible but these rarely come up. It's far more often "4 to the face."
As for Ramunap Ruins I'll test it but I'm really not expecting much. This new meta is very fast and I'm wary of taking any more damage.
I appreciate your feedback.
The reason I came up witht he list I did is purely for experimental purposes, but also because there was a similar list playing mono red revolving around the same concept. It went 5-0 in an MTGO league. I would venture to guess that the "updated" list is probably bad. It was mostly developed on the spot (hence the open slots.) Plus, the only experience I have had with it is gold fishing hands for consistency testing on Tappedout (no actual games have been played yet.) Theoretically, it should provide its on card advantage separate from Boros. Bump in the Night is one drop, shard volley is one drop, burst lightning is one drop. Where it falls short is in power. Boros Charm outclasses every other modern legal two drop burn in terms of damage, plus it has two additional, relevant effects. White also gains access to Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, and wear // Tear.
In all honesty, I would admit Naya burn tends itself to be a bit better. The reason I brewed that up is mostly to make use of Bomat Courier in burn. First indications mmade me believe it would be "better" focusing on one drop spells. I cut a lot of corners trying to maximize its efficiency, and without additional testing, it's hard to say if it will ever compete directly with Boros. Additional testing will see if any current changes even NEED to be made to the main deck. I think we can mostly agree it is nearly as efficient as possible.
For the time being, RW burn has been thoroughly tested and proven. This deck not so much.
I do definitely feel any consistent change to RB burn tends itself more toward a Rakdos hyper aggro deck than specifically burn. That kind of deck is where cards like Claim/Fame belong. Having any focus beyond direct damage makes burn that much less consistent and attacks its advantage. When developing an archetype it's imperative to consider what weaknesses exist and continue looking for cards that assist with those weakness while maintaining the general theme. Including most Rakdos cards does not help with this. The only way I'd see a black splash working is in a mardu build. As personal preferece, though, I never build burn lists that run 3 colors in the main deck. Splashing for a 3rd color in a blood moon meta with 19 lands only spells disaster.
If a splash or card doesn't improve the deck in some verifiable way, then don't play it. Burn has very specific weaknesses and the only reason changes should be made is to address those weaknesses more efficiently.
I'd argue with the inclusion of Sovereign's Bite the playability of RBg burn is probably superior to a Mardu list in much the same way that RWg is superior to a full on naya list. In the past the only viable way to splash black was to go full Jund Burn (Running atarka's command and bump in the night) or Mardu (running bump with boros charm/lightning helix.) except this is no longer the case. Truth be told (and some may disagree with me here but my testing proves this) the only viable main board black spell for a long time was bump in the night. Nothing else was really good enough in a burn shell unless you start to move the deck more towards Rakdos Aggro (as you pointed out.). Sovereign's bite is good enough to make a valid archetype and my testing showed it to be pretty close in consistency with RWg Burn in game one.
It's true that Sovereign's Bite isn't as good as Lightning Helix but it fixes the problem RB had that RW didn't. It makes it more consistent in faster games. The six life swing is huge in making burn viable against other "Fast" clocks and can be the difference between surviving or simply dying to someone else's clock. Most of the time Lightning Helix goes to the face but there are times when it doesn't. However, what RB does have is more one drops (Bump in the Night) which provides two benefits. One being more interaction with monastery swiftspear and another in sneaking in an additional 3 points burn. In magical christmas land games you can occasionally close out the match with a flash back bump in long control games. In enough games this is something that occurs every now and then.
RB Burn doesn't suffer the game one matchup. It is consistent enough that this isn't the problem. No, the real issue RB has is the weak removal. Go for the Throat from my playtesting is the best removal RB has access to. Path to Exile matters just that much. As I alluded to in my post everything should be consistent and support the gameplan. Removal doesn't do this and is another exception here. The difference is that Path to Exile is a catch all answer to the biggest threats that plague us while only needing one mana. This way we can lavaspike, lightning bolt, rift bolt, grim lavamancer, goblin guide, monastery swiftspear, etc with our other land or if we're on three lands have options for Skullcrack, Helix, Charm, etc. This is a huge advantage and isn't at all small. This is actually something Elcon pointed out to me (which is why I said in my post he was absolutely right.).
However, there is a reason to still play RB Burn and it does have one advantage over it's peer. If you're in a meta that desires some form of land destruction Contaminated Ground just simply beats the age old Molten Rain. It's flat out better and it isn't a contest. The one mana cost less is a big deal and the fact that either A) They never touch that land again or B) Ignore it and continue to use that land and accumulating additional damage really just makes it better. The other reason Black is viable is in Rakdos Charm which if you are in a meta that is very go wide heavy it makes a very flexible side board card. Graveyard Hate, Go Wide Hate, and Artifact Removal hate. There's a lot of value in that one card. Now one thing I will contest is this:
RB Burn wasn't playable until Sovereign's bite. Sorry, I ran it before Sovereign's Bite as do some of our members but our main board was still inferior to RWg as well as our side board options. What did we run? Bump? Bump is decent but what else? Some tried Claim to Fame. You agree it doesn't work in a true burn shell. Right on. So what else? Gonti's? I kind of showed the data on why it's bad. Terrible top deck, too slow if you don't have it in your opening hand or second draw, and on top of that can be removed by cards that get rid of permanent. So it can essentially be counterspelled (this is the big one) by abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, and others.
RW and RWg has access to in their variants both charm and helix. This meant they didn't need Atarka's (many learned this) which also meant less shocking to oneself and a more stable manabase. Less damage to yourself also meant you were able to race easier. Bump is good enough in RB but not by itself. Sovereign makes black a viable color main board but the problem is we need a better removal spell than Go for the Throat or Terminate. Still, RB is closer than it's ever been.
Last thing I'm going to say is this: Gonti's machination actually proved to me why RB was so inconsistent before Sovereign's. Gonti is the best and easiest black spell we could fit into burn since Bump and the spell had been the sole reason I lost 11 games. So despite being a one drop burn spell it was terrible. Sovereign's Bite, on the other hand, has always been consistent, has never been a dead card, and was always a good cast. There were games I wish I could have slammed a creature with it but it has always done what it needed to do. Do damage and buy time for me to close out the game. It's not just slightly better than Gonti's. It's miles ahead of Gonti's. RB Burn is now VERY consistent game 1. Every game where you need to board in hard removal your consistency falters. On the upside go wide decks, the Tron Variants, and other decks we side in for land destruction become a bit easier to take out. RB Burn is now a viable option in certain meta but in overall meta is now just behind RW/RWg. Give us a removal that says something like "(B) Exile target creature from the game you lose 2-3 life." and we become equals. It's really that close.
Edit: Though, like Elcon said. I doubt that'll happen. Most decks are very happy with Fatal Push.
I'm not necessarily arguging against RB, but RBW (I find color consistency to be victimized if we push tri-color in a blood moon meta.) I recognize there is some merit to RB, since it has more one drop spells due to Bump in the Night. The sideboard is also arguably stronger, since sometimes hte only white card we side in is path to exile. At least black would give fatal push, Rain of Gore, Rakdos Charm, and collective brutality (odd choices, but brutality is a "burn" spell by itself.
Your last statement is where I think the final nail in the coffin arrives when considering different color combinations. Black doesn't provide QUITE ENOUGH yet to justify dropping white altogether. If Deathrite Shaman were still legal, then yeah, I'd say RB were superior. But, for the time being, we would need a 2 mana burn spell that provides direct burn with some additional effect. It's really a shame Rakdos charm doesn't help burn at all main deck. There were quite a few good effects they could have packed in: deal 2 damage to target creature or player, destroy target artifact, remove two cards in a graveyard from the game. I would even be okay with a RB enhancement or 3 mana planeswalker (something burn desperately needs.) Collective brutality almost made the cut, but 2 damage to gain 2 life was not good enough.
I am definitely okay with doing testing on the RB front. I have both a hyper aggro and 1 drop RB emphasis with Bomat Courier I want to try. Here is the basic idea behind it:
That's more or less the idea. You want to play low cost, high efficiency spells and maximize the number of them you have through Bomat Courier. The higher cost spells are situational and thrown into the sideboard. I forgot how good Rakdos Charm was in this meta. Built in Relic, punishes affinity, new goblins, and mardu tokens, artifact hate.
So I posted awhile back and I have to agree with Elcon's opinion of Gonti's Machination. I am part of a team and over the past few weeks we've grinded out hundreds of games and have hit as many events as possible. I have a loose spreadsheet (which I'll probably provide later) of how many games I've won, what cards won me the game, what cards lost me the game, and what "any" other card in our deck would have done for me otherwise. In our playgroup I have tested Rakdos Burn RBg Burn and even RBw burn in order to develop data on that variant of Burn.
Gonti's machination isn't playable. Of all the games I've played using this card it just hasn't lived up to being worth it. I have had 11 games where Gonti had lost me the game and of those 11 games 6 of them would have been won by any three damage burn spell I could have used on that turn. Three of those games could have been one by a creature and/or spell instead. Two of those games were lost by it being a dead card that was struck by enchantment removal (namely abrupt decay.).
This out of the way I do want to point out a card that has been good in testing. Sovereign's Bite (yes I know it's not out. This was proxied extensively in my playgroup.) Sovereign's bite is weaker than Lightning Helix and it may not be an instant nor can it target living creatures but in the end it's still very good for what it does. It's a six point life swing which most certainly helps us in a race and has provided consistent time in order to close out the game. It also ups Gonti in that it isn't a bad matchup and is never a dead card. The life loss versus damage loss is barely relevant when discussing the card and has only come up a handful of times.
I want to bring up something that's been repeated ad nauseam on this forum and want to talk about cards like Shard Volley, claim to Fame, and others and why they're gimmicky at best. Burn is a deck that relies on consistency. We're considered one of if not the most consistent decks in all of Modern Magic. Our goal on the surface is a straight forward one (reduce the opponent's life points to zero.) but every card we have has to remain consistent. If it reduces consistency at all there is a problem. This is why I bring up cards like Claim to Fame and Shard Volley. These cards, especially in greater numbers, reduce consistency. You got claim to fame and no creatures? It's a dead card. If you play it and an opponent removes the creature you bring back then you have wasted your turn doing zero damage.
Shard Volley has a similar issue and why I don't recommend more than one. In fact in my playtesting I wouldn't use it at all. I know people like it's speed but it's a bad card when you have multiples in your hand and are stuck on one or two mana. It's bad if your opponent locks you out of a land or destroys a land. It's bad when the damage is somehow negated or prevented and you haven't just lost a card but a land as a result. Consistently we on average see 3 lands a game. We don't have the option to start pitching our lands. If you mulligan and end up with a few shard volleys you're in a bad place. Gonti's is the same way. You top deck it late game? You just lowered your consistency. Consistency is key and this is why Boros/RWg burn is king and why true Naya has mostly disappeared as people realized that if you're not consistent you don't win as Burn.
This has led me to building, from my testing, the most consistent variation of RBg Burn.
The first thing you'll notice the setup is very similar to RW Burn and for good reason. If it isn't broke don't fix it and if you're playing another variant of burn you want it to be as similar as possible. You have bump in the night in place of boros charm and you have Sovereign's Bite in place of lightning helix. It serves a similar role but I'll be honest with you. It isn't as good. On the other hand Bump In the Night as another lava spike is explosive. Another one drop for three isn't missed in a burn deck and from my testing it has performed consistently well. It more easily enables more than a single burn spell to be cast on the same turn but most importantly the list above is consistent.
As for the sideboard Elcon is right again. You need a side board that works and you don't play a bad version of an existing deck. If you're going to play Red Black you need to aim for cards that the other side doesn't have as good of access too. Right now RWg's biggest advantage is the fact that it has path to exile. There is no great alternative to this card in burn. I tried Terminate and guess what? In my testing go for the throat is a better option. Sure it can't hit artifacts but we have destructive revelry and Rakdos Charm for that. Rakdos Charm is a very multi purpose card. It hits go wide (but you don't see those decks as often but it's nice when you do) it's graveyard removal at instant speed, and in a pinch can be used to destroy artifacts. Go for the Throat hits everything else. What makes it better than Terminate? First off the "Can't be regenerated" clause is barely relevant and the advantage Go for the Throat has is that it isn't red.
Go for the Throat exists to deal with cards like master of waves. Remember, consistency is key. Any card with red protection means we don't have adequate removal in board if you're using terminate. I tried self inflicted wound. Once again, not consistent, the choice matters far often than it doesn't and there's so many cards in the format it won't even touch anyway. No, if you went black it's for the side board card Contaminated Ground. You know what makes Contaminated Ground? It furthers our game plan in doing damage while attacking the opponent's utility land. Best part is it doesn't require us to have three mana (which there's games we simply don't have that mana) and doesn't require us to completely tap out when we do. It plays nicely with bump in the night and the fact we run more one drops (even if it's only four more) as it gives us something extra to do with that one remaining mana. I have learned in the playtest I do not like three cast spells. Which brings me to..
Don't run ensnaring bridge. No, seriously I'm advocating against this card. If it's destroyed by the opponent or removed you've done nothing to further your gameplan and it costs three mana. You're tapping out to cast something that does nothing for our consistent game plan which is reducing the player to zero. That is the plan.
The only exception I have to this rule is Exquisite Firecraft. Sure it costs three but you're furthering the gameplan. Better part is that it's a card you'll be using against decks that can interrupt our gameplan. Remember what people have complained about burn in the past (some still do?) it's that we're hard to interact with. Exquisite Firecraft tells decks that it can't interact and has to accept four to the face.
This is pretty much my thoughts on Rakdos burn and I will say this in the addendum. RW and RWg are still better. Lightning Helix just simply trumps Sovereign's Bite and path to exile beats the fact that our best removal is go for the throat, but our consistency is getting pretty close. I do believe Sovereign's bite makes us competitive. Sovereign's Bite in my testing has been important for RB burn and if you're not running it you're making a mistake. That six point life swing (up three for you down three for your opponent) makes a difference over the course of quite a few games. It's why I would not advocate removing Lightning Helix either.
(I've said it repeatedly but Elcon. I'm a big enough man to admit when I am wrong. You were right about Gonti's and your views in this thread.)
I do definitely feel any consistent change to RB burn tends itself more toward a Rakdos hyper aggro deck than specifically burn. That kind of deck is where cards like Claim/Fame belong. Having any focus beyond direct damage makes burn that much less consistent and attacks its advantage. When developing an archetype it's imperative to consider what weaknesses exist and continue looking for cards that assist with those weakness while maintaining the general theme. Including most Rakdos cards does not help with this. The only way I'd see a black splash working is in a mardu build. As personal preferece, though, I never build burn lists that run 3 colors in the main deck. Splashing for a 3rd color in a blood moon meta with 19 lands only spells disaster.
If a splash or card doesn't improve the deck in some verifiable way, then don't play it. Burn has very specific weaknesses and the only reason changes should be made is to address those weaknesses more efficiently.
I am thinking of putting together Mardu pyromancer, but I am not a very serious constructed player so I tend to mize on expensive lands and $50 planeswalkers. I play 90% limited but it's cool to have a modern deck around. I loved playing boros burn in standard with YP.
How bad is it to sub 2 Dragonskull Summit for 2 Blackcleave Cliffs? Is 10 fetches enough or do I need 12? (mizing 2 of mesa/flats, keeping the 8 cheap ones)
Apologies for not reading 241 pages above this...
The liliana people are on the fence about, you can probably get away with not running it, and either running a 3rd push, a 3rd bloodmoon, or a 2nd dreadbore in its place. I splurged for one, but only one.
I never really considered using Dragonskull summit as a budget cliffs, I'd have to run some hands with it. Traditionally the budget fill in is 3rd blood crypt, 2nd sacred foundry, and one extra swamp and mountain.
10-12 fetches is way too many, the stock list plays 4 bloodstained mire and 4 marsh flats. Since the key point of our fetches is that they all get swamps, polluted delta's $19 price tag compared decently to the $39 of marsh flats.
If you're wanting to play this deck this way, you're also going to need replacements for the stock 3 leyline of the void and 2 engineered explosives in the sideboard. I had reasonable success with Nihil spellbomb as my GY hate of choice, and for a sweeper your best bet on the cheap would be Anger of the Gods.
Having a Liliana in the main deck is only proving itself to be more valuable as time comes on. So far two top pro players are running her, and some local LGS tournaments are producing high win rates.
It is still probably a meta call, but there are cards I'd rather cut out than her.
My list contains Firebrands and Mogg Fanatics to increase the value from Flame of Keld's Saga III effect. Putting them into play and immediately sacrificing them for 3 damage only serves to increase Keld's value. However, an argument can be made for Grim Lavamancer in its place. I have to admit, there were a few situations where the tap effect (versus pure sacrificing) was not preferred over Mogg's tap-free benefit. Lavamancer can ping for 2 without Keld the turn it comes into play if it's kicked off a Bushwhacker, plus it's a continuous source of damage.
I'm not sure if you're referring to an older list or this current one. The RDW goblins build is capable of, and proven to, turn 3 kills with turn 5 being very late for it. Affinity is the only aggro deck even capable of outspeeding it. Speed is not the issue here, and if it were, it would not be winning PTQs.
You're probably right about that and given the fact that I don't like Manamorphose it's better to play something else. I'll stick with LtLH for now although I'm not the biggest fan of MD planeswalkers in Mardu but I haven't find anything better so far.
I have the same feeling as yours about MD planeswalker but after changing my MD a bit these days to try something different after watching Reid video, seeing some lists that top8 recent tournaments I tried again MD lili of the veil in place of 3rd blood moon and 3rd brutality (as I begin to find that 3 moon is a bit too much but maybe it's because of my meta and 3rd brutality goes in SB) and it feels not that bad this time.
Sometimes even great as with our discard she helps to destroy completly opponents hand and helps against low number big creatures decks (against hollow one she helped me with a Kcommand to clean a board with flameblade+hollow one+angler and offered the win after opponent was out of gas because every topdeck he made was discarded or killed). I pretty like her flexibility these days. Maybe it will change in the futur but for now I'm proud of her
I tried LtLH after playing some game without her (in the md) and she did some job. Managed to ultimate her against Hollow One which helped me to win the game. I prefer LtLH at the moment but perhaps I should give a try to LoTV. I admit that playing 1-2 planeswalkers doesn't feel so bad and sometimes it's really helpful although probably not needed. I had the same issue of 3x Blood Moon being a bit too much (most lists are moving back to 2) and 3x Collective Brutality in md feels a bit too much as well. I prefer Liliana over both of these at the moment.
One thing I have to say about Liliana is that I read it on Twitter and also listened Podcast of Gerry Thompson where he talked about Mardu and his GP Vegas. One of the key points I remembered was that he was very happy with MD LoTV and coming from such a pro as he is this definitely means something.
Unpopular opinion, it seems, but the planeswalkers MD seem entirely worth it. After watching the Reid Duke video, I became more convinced. His Liliana did work on the opponents' hands often time leaving them empty or with almost no answers. The constant pressure of discarding a card is impactful. Also, Liliana's -2 can force an opponent to sacrifice which means it gets around protection/indestructible effects. Last Hope provides her own card advantage. Her plus effect can ping creatures or reduce damage to protect her/when in a tight spot. I consider her ultimate to be sort of in line with Lingering Souls and Pyromancer tokens too. Either one is strong, but provides benefits in different metas.
After seeing them in action, I'm beginning to shift my previous train of thought. I have become more convinced they are almost entirely necessary.
What do you guys think of Lightning Helix in this deck? I've seen several lists playing 2 copies of it recently. It helps us against more aggressive decks like Humans and Burn to stabilize but these kind of decks are already good matchups (except Burn which is even or slightly unfavored for us). It makes our matchup against control and big mana decks worse (you could play more copies of Dreadbore instead for example) though. It's probably not worth it but I thought I'd ask since I've seen plenty decks playing it lately.
I'd think Manamorphose is better than lightning helix, and I'm even on edge about Manamorphose. Collective Brutality is the "life gain" card. Plus it has the added benefits of discarding for additional effects. Helix is okay. It just doesn't seem to be needed.
As for the new card, seems like a strictly better Alms, and at least worth jamming. The problem is what to cut?
I’ve tried all the cute variants black has and I’d agree that Gonti’s Machinations isn’t great. It was a build-around-me card where I needed painlands to improve the reliability of triggering it, and was never really happy to topdeck one.
I’d concur that RW burn decks may be more resilient, and the better build of burn, but there’s a lot to be said about RB’s explosive raw power - It was how I was able to do as well as I did. The games vs Merfolk and Storm they each took 12-16 damage by turne 1-3 off repeated Vexing Devil/Claim.
I wouldn’t say a 2 mana Alms of the Vein is suddenly a reason to play black. That reason is Bob. He solves burn’s biggest shortcoming which is refueling you hand after inevitably gassing out. In most cases, it survives removal since it’s not the one beating down.
I think RW and RB are two different offshots that provide alternative paths. RB is faster and more explosive while RW is versatile. RB lists can be almost entirely 1 mana decks.
With Eidolon and Confidant have you considering replacing Vexing Devil with Death's Shadow? normally Death's Shadow goes into hyper aggro builds, but after seeing https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-br-51061#paper I'm wondering if this is sort of the route RB wants to go.
I have done my damnedest to try and grind with this deck, maybe the cards just hate me, but I haven't gotten any meaningful wins in several weeks trying to play this. Even going back to the stock lists isn't helping.
Maybe I'm just not cut out for this deck, but no play I ever make feels like it's actually impactful. Other midrange decks have much bigger threats and just as much discard/burn. Aggro decks play an endless stream of beaters that don't die to bolt, control decks draw more cards and have better interaction, backed up by manlands and answers to everything we play. I want to like the deck, it just can't ever give me the cards I need, because at any given point there's only 3 or 4 good cards, and the rest are blanks - and those "good" cards change every game so I can't even try adding more of them in.
I go turn 1 discard spell, turn 2 looting and hold bolt mana up, feeling like that's how it's supposed to work, then turn 3 comes around I have to hit answers every turn or I die. The times when I can actually live long enough to go "YP flash back lingering souls" are so rare, mainly because I can never draw pyromancer to begin with.
I just want to know how I should expect the deck to work.
I view this deck more of a control/tempo deck than strictly midrange. The power does not come in a huge number of creatures. It uses a proactive strategy, rather than reactive, to put the board in a desirable state. Blue decks have the same goal in mind, but are reactive with counter spells. You want to deny your opponent answers to Bedlam and Pyromancer through discard. Play Inquisition or Thoughseize against removal or key combo pieces. Terminate or Fatal Push threatening creatures. Throw down a blood moon and completely trash some mana bases.
It's important to look at a deck's goal, its advantages, and how it exploits those advantages. When you begin to step into new archetypes that way, building and card selection make more sense. In comparison to Jund, this deck is not AS reliant on creatures that can be hated on, and the two creatures it does play are able to generate huge value with flash backs, tokens, and general spell advantage.
The website only listed it as 5-0, so I based it off that. 11-0 is pretty damn good. I can see the addition of Grim Lavamancer adds that "damage without relying on monsters" aspect that is sometimes needed.
The list linked before from Magic Aids is one of the better ones I've come across. In his playtesting, the flames and Bomat just provided absurd amounts of card advantage. The chapter III mode also meant Mogg Fanatic could be sacrificed for 3 damage or the trample from Legion Loyalist would be buffed similarly. A lot of people question Flames of Keld when it came out. However, I think this deck is the perfect fit for it. For a deck to be successful it needs to win quickly and slowly. If there is no mechanism to survive stalls then the deck will fall into obscurity with the other modern brews that can kill on turn 3 only in the most ideal scenarios. The 3 pilots I watched on youtube all had a similar problem - they ran out of gas around turn 5. Their board states were often times different. Sometimes they did have a creature to continue attacking with, but the top deck mode was always consistent.
Flame of Keld and Lavamancer alleviate this somewhat, which is important. If this deck continues to shred tournaments, it will become the boogeyman and is very easily hated on with common sideboarding cards. This fact must be taken into consideration when building this deck in the future.
TLDR; flames of keld and grim lavamancer are likely ridiculous in this deck and need to be playtested further to alleviate the post turn 4 gas issues this deck has.
Magic Aids, on Youtube, just released a new video trying a Dominaria brew of 8-Whacks. He went 5-0 during his league. Namely, he tried Flame of Keld, and the Saga performed very well, quasi acting like another bushwhacker. It's another dream topdeck during the endgame.
During the last "chapter", every 1/1 hits for 3, every Fanatoc sacrificed BOLTS the opponent, and Grenades xplodes for 7.
I'm really tempted to try it.
He also tried Bomat Courier, and I love this card, the only problem is that's it's a nombo with Flame of Keld (which only boosts RED sources of damage). It showed up well, the redraw effect can be very strong by itself.
I don't know what 1 Simian Spirit Guide is doing here though. It's already a risky manabase :3
This deck kind of looks nuts, actually. I can't help but think he's wasting the Atarka's in the sideboard, though, since I've always thought green was the splash to have for this deck. Atarka can pump and hit 3 to the face or drop another land for accelerated bushwhacker turns. In some respects, I think Atarka's is better than flame. Burn spells provide their own source of card advantage by doing immediate damage that is much harder to negate than just throwing blockers out on the field.
But I agree about Bomat. I'm not sure it does enough to justify its existence here. Simian Spirit guide seems more appealing.
One last thing, there was a list that went 5-0 on an MTGO PTQ playing 4 main deck grim lavamancer.
I suppose you are right. I was getting a bit concerned about my own 3 cmc creature base and thought splitting Knight, Loxodon, Finks and Rhonas was too much. It seems to me Knight and Loxodon were the two that stood out without anything else being as beneficial.
What kind of cards would you be suggesting in the hatebears category?
I was on the fence about the planeswalkers in the main deck anyway. From even a small amount of playtesting they threw off the tempo without providing game-winning or immediate benefit universally. So I can see your logic in this case.
My flex slots are due to uncertainties regarding Any card (except BBE) over 4 mana and Lightning Helix (since I think just a path and Bolt package can do given enough creature-based life gain.)
Cards and reasons
Kitchen finks Immune to non-path removal first turn, provides life gain for potentially bad match ups Arlin Kord Has a master of the wild-hunt type effect, but is a planeswalker so has more staying power. Aven Mindcensor Flying and stops shennigans Matter Reshaper A weird addition, but is a "BBE number 2" with 3 cmc permanents. Even if it hits a spell or land, that card will just go to the hand providing its own level of card advantage. Plus, I've always enjoyed completely unsuspecting additions to decks such as an Eldrazi in zoo.
Rhonas: Potential to be absolutely insane. 5/5 indestructible death touch for 3 mana. Not only that, but it provides a pump. It has the "cavaet" of needing a 4 power or higher creature to be activated, but with Knight, Nacatl, and Loxodon that should not even be a problem. Selfless Spirit 2/1 is kind of bad since it can be blocked by Mardu's tokens, but flying for 2 mana makes it a lot better. There can be situations where UW sweeps the board or removal is pointed at a creature. Since the deck can be somewhat soft to spot removal, this card COULD potentially solve this problem. The weakest of the mentions, but I brought it up anyway. Tireless TrackerI mean this card has low value but I guess we can try it? Its effect will be doubled with Knight of the Reliquary but it just seems slow. The point of the deck is to provide high value cards with more or less immediate value. It seems hefty to play a 3 cmc creature, have to then play a fetchland, create a token, then pay another 2 mana to sacrifice the token to put a counter on him...no thanks. Gideon of the Trials Yeah, it's not Elspeth or Ajani, but it's a 3 cmc planeswalker cascaded into from BBE. It's more important to consider this if going the Rhonas route, since it is a free, indestructible 4/4 every turn. Its first effect could possibly save face in a few situations. However, I can see where people would say this card is bad.
I can't really think of anything worth it beyond these. The only other 4 cmc card I would ever even consider is Thrun, the Last Troll.
Edit: I forgot Collected Company was a thing. Actually, my first build involved this card since I think it's actually better than Bloodbraid Elf for a lot of reasons. Has anyone experimented with it directly?
I've always loved Mardu burn decks. Bump in the night is a fantastic 1 drop addition to burn decks (despite its flashback being nigh inconceivable to cast.) The thing some people forget is that black provides the 1 drop advantage. Namely, with Bump in the Night the number of burn that can be played with only one mana drastically increases. That being said, thouhg, I don't think black still provides anything outside of Bump in the Night that can compare to the RW counter parts. Sovereign's and Machinations are not as effective as Helix and Boros Charm.
If we want to explore this route, we should maximize the one drops. Play shard volley and Grim Lavamancer instead of Machinations and Sovereing's Bite. This will put you ahead in terms of effective burn each turn, which does provide a different route of card advantage than just RW.
So for you I'd say:
-4 Sovereign's Bite
-4 Machinations
+3 Searing Blaze
+1 Shard Volley
+4 Boros Charm
I certainly would not be opposed to experimenting with black again.
I appreciate your feedback.
The reason I came up witht he list I did is purely for experimental purposes, but also because there was a similar list playing mono red revolving around the same concept. It went 5-0 in an MTGO league. I would venture to guess that the "updated" list is probably bad. It was mostly developed on the spot (hence the open slots.) Plus, the only experience I have had with it is gold fishing hands for consistency testing on Tappedout (no actual games have been played yet.) Theoretically, it should provide its on card advantage separate from Boros. Bump in the Night is one drop, shard volley is one drop, burst lightning is one drop. Where it falls short is in power. Boros Charm outclasses every other modern legal two drop burn in terms of damage, plus it has two additional, relevant effects. White also gains access to Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, and wear // Tear.
In all honesty, I would admit Naya burn tends itself to be a bit better. The reason I brewed that up is mostly to make use of Bomat Courier in burn. First indications mmade me believe it would be "better" focusing on one drop spells. I cut a lot of corners trying to maximize its efficiency, and without additional testing, it's hard to say if it will ever compete directly with Boros. Additional testing will see if any current changes even NEED to be made to the main deck. I think we can mostly agree it is nearly as efficient as possible.
For the time being, RW burn has been thoroughly tested and proven. This deck not so much.
I'm not necessarily arguging against RB, but RBW (I find color consistency to be victimized if we push tri-color in a blood moon meta.) I recognize there is some merit to RB, since it has more one drop spells due to Bump in the Night. The sideboard is also arguably stronger, since sometimes hte only white card we side in is path to exile. At least black would give fatal push, Rain of Gore, Rakdos Charm, and collective brutality (odd choices, but brutality is a "burn" spell by itself.
Your last statement is where I think the final nail in the coffin arrives when considering different color combinations. Black doesn't provide QUITE ENOUGH yet to justify dropping white altogether. If Deathrite Shaman were still legal, then yeah, I'd say RB were superior. But, for the time being, we would need a 2 mana burn spell that provides direct burn with some additional effect. It's really a shame Rakdos charm doesn't help burn at all main deck. There were quite a few good effects they could have packed in: deal 2 damage to target creature or player, destroy target artifact, remove two cards in a graveyard from the game. I would even be okay with a RB enhancement or 3 mana planeswalker (something burn desperately needs.) Collective brutality almost made the cut, but 2 damage to gain 2 life was not good enough.
I am definitely okay with doing testing on the RB front. I have both a hyper aggro and 1 drop RB emphasis with Bomat Courier I want to try. Here is the basic idea behind it:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Bomat Courier
4 Bump in the Night
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Shard Volley
4 Searing Blaze
20 Lands.
3 Destructive Revelery
3 Skullcrack
2 Searing Blood
3 Rakdos Charm (forgot this card is good against Affinity/Mardu/new goblins deck)
2 Sovereign's Bite
2 Fatal Push
That's more or less the idea. You want to play low cost, high efficiency spells and maximize the number of them you have through Bomat Courier. The higher cost spells are situational and thrown into the sideboard. I forgot how good Rakdos Charm was in this meta. Built in Relic, punishes affinity, new goblins, and mardu tokens, artifact hate.
I do definitely feel any consistent change to RB burn tends itself more toward a Rakdos hyper aggro deck than specifically burn. That kind of deck is where cards like Claim/Fame belong. Having any focus beyond direct damage makes burn that much less consistent and attacks its advantage. When developing an archetype it's imperative to consider what weaknesses exist and continue looking for cards that assist with those weakness while maintaining the general theme. Including most Rakdos cards does not help with this. The only way I'd see a black splash working is in a mardu build. As personal preferece, though, I never build burn lists that run 3 colors in the main deck. Splashing for a 3rd color in a blood moon meta with 19 lands only spells disaster.
If a splash or card doesn't improve the deck in some verifiable way, then don't play it. Burn has very specific weaknesses and the only reason changes should be made is to address those weaknesses more efficiently.
Having a Liliana in the main deck is only proving itself to be more valuable as time comes on. So far two top pro players are running her, and some local LGS tournaments are producing high win rates.
It is still probably a meta call, but there are cards I'd rather cut out than her.
I'm not sure if you're referring to an older list or this current one. The RDW goblins build is capable of, and proven to, turn 3 kills with turn 5 being very late for it. Affinity is the only aggro deck even capable of outspeeding it. Speed is not the issue here, and if it were, it would not be winning PTQs.
Unpopular opinion, it seems, but the planeswalkers MD seem entirely worth it. After watching the Reid Duke video, I became more convinced. His Liliana did work on the opponents' hands often time leaving them empty or with almost no answers. The constant pressure of discarding a card is impactful. Also, Liliana's -2 can force an opponent to sacrifice which means it gets around protection/indestructible effects. Last Hope provides her own card advantage. Her plus effect can ping creatures or reduce damage to protect her/when in a tight spot. I consider her ultimate to be sort of in line with Lingering Souls and Pyromancer tokens too. Either one is strong, but provides benefits in different metas.
After seeing them in action, I'm beginning to shift my previous train of thought. I have become more convinced they are almost entirely necessary.
I'd think Manamorphose is better than lightning helix, and I'm even on edge about Manamorphose. Collective Brutality is the "life gain" card. Plus it has the added benefits of discarding for additional effects. Helix is okay. It just doesn't seem to be needed.
I think RW and RB are two different offshots that provide alternative paths. RB is faster and more explosive while RW is versatile. RB lists can be almost entirely 1 mana decks.
With Eidolon and Confidant have you considering replacing Vexing Devil with Death's Shadow? normally Death's Shadow goes into hyper aggro builds, but after seeing https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-br-51061#paper I'm wondering if this is sort of the route RB wants to go.
I view this deck more of a control/tempo deck than strictly midrange. The power does not come in a huge number of creatures. It uses a proactive strategy, rather than reactive, to put the board in a desirable state. Blue decks have the same goal in mind, but are reactive with counter spells. You want to deny your opponent answers to Bedlam and Pyromancer through discard. Play Inquisition or Thoughseize against removal or key combo pieces. Terminate or Fatal Push threatening creatures. Throw down a blood moon and completely trash some mana bases.
It's important to look at a deck's goal, its advantages, and how it exploits those advantages. When you begin to step into new archetypes that way, building and card selection make more sense. In comparison to Jund, this deck is not AS reliant on creatures that can be hated on, and the two creatures it does play are able to generate huge value with flash backs, tokens, and general spell advantage.
The list linked before from Magic Aids is one of the better ones I've come across. In his playtesting, the flames and Bomat just provided absurd amounts of card advantage. The chapter III mode also meant Mogg Fanatic could be sacrificed for 3 damage or the trample from Legion Loyalist would be buffed similarly. A lot of people question Flames of Keld when it came out. However, I think this deck is the perfect fit for it. For a deck to be successful it needs to win quickly and slowly. If there is no mechanism to survive stalls then the deck will fall into obscurity with the other modern brews that can kill on turn 3 only in the most ideal scenarios. The 3 pilots I watched on youtube all had a similar problem - they ran out of gas around turn 5. Their board states were often times different. Sometimes they did have a creature to continue attacking with, but the top deck mode was always consistent.
Flame of Keld and Lavamancer alleviate this somewhat, which is important. If this deck continues to shred tournaments, it will become the boogeyman and is very easily hated on with common sideboarding cards. This fact must be taken into consideration when building this deck in the future.
TLDR; flames of keld and grim lavamancer are likely ridiculous in this deck and need to be playtested further to alleviate the post turn 4 gas issues this deck has.
This deck kind of looks nuts, actually. I can't help but think he's wasting the Atarka's in the sideboard, though, since I've always thought green was the splash to have for this deck. Atarka can pump and hit 3 to the face or drop another land for accelerated bushwhacker turns. In some respects, I think Atarka's is better than flame. Burn spells provide their own source of card advantage by doing immediate damage that is much harder to negate than just throwing blockers out on the field.
But I agree about Bomat. I'm not sure it does enough to justify its existence here. Simian Spirit guide seems more appealing.
One last thing, there was a list that went 5-0 on an MTGO PTQ playing 4 main deck grim lavamancer.
What kind of cards would you be suggesting in the hatebears category?
My flex slots are due to uncertainties regarding Any card (except BBE) over 4 mana and Lightning Helix (since I think just a path and Bolt package can do given enough creature-based life gain.)
Cards and reasons
Kitchen finks Immune to non-path removal first turn, provides life gain for potentially bad match ups
Arlin Kord Has a master of the wild-hunt type effect, but is a planeswalker so has more staying power.
Aven Mindcensor Flying and stops shennigans
Matter Reshaper A weird addition, but is a "BBE number 2" with 3 cmc permanents. Even if it hits a spell or land, that card will just go to the hand providing its own level of card advantage. Plus, I've always enjoyed completely unsuspecting additions to decks such as an Eldrazi in zoo.
Rhonas: Potential to be absolutely insane. 5/5 indestructible death touch for 3 mana. Not only that, but it provides a pump. It has the "cavaet" of needing a 4 power or higher creature to be activated, but with Knight, Nacatl, and Loxodon that should not even be a problem.
Selfless Spirit 2/1 is kind of bad since it can be blocked by Mardu's tokens, but flying for 2 mana makes it a lot better. There can be situations where UW sweeps the board or removal is pointed at a creature. Since the deck can be somewhat soft to spot removal, this card COULD potentially solve this problem. The weakest of the mentions, but I brought it up anyway.
Tireless TrackerI mean this card has low value but I guess we can try it? Its effect will be doubled with Knight of the Reliquary but it just seems slow. The point of the deck is to provide high value cards with more or less immediate value. It seems hefty to play a 3 cmc creature, have to then play a fetchland, create a token, then pay another 2 mana to sacrifice the token to put a counter on him...no thanks.
Gideon of the Trials Yeah, it's not Elspeth or Ajani, but it's a 3 cmc planeswalker cascaded into from BBE. It's more important to consider this if going the Rhonas route, since it is a free, indestructible 4/4 every turn. Its first effect could possibly save face in a few situations. However, I can see where people would say this card is bad.
I can't really think of anything worth it beyond these. The only other 4 cmc card I would ever even consider is Thrun, the Last Troll.
Edit: I forgot Collected Company was a thing. Actually, my first build involved this card since I think it's actually better than Bloodbraid Elf for a lot of reasons. Has anyone experimented with it directly?
I've always loved Mardu burn decks. Bump in the night is a fantastic 1 drop addition to burn decks (despite its flashback being nigh inconceivable to cast.) The thing some people forget is that black provides the 1 drop advantage. Namely, with Bump in the Night the number of burn that can be played with only one mana drastically increases. That being said, thouhg, I don't think black still provides anything outside of Bump in the Night that can compare to the RW counter parts. Sovereign's and Machinations are not as effective as Helix and Boros Charm.
If we want to explore this route, we should maximize the one drops. Play shard volley and Grim Lavamancer instead of Machinations and Sovereing's Bite. This will put you ahead in terms of effective burn each turn, which does provide a different route of card advantage than just RW.
So for you I'd say:
-4 Sovereign's Bite
-4 Machinations
+3 Searing Blaze
+1 Shard Volley
+4 Boros Charm
I certainly would not be opposed to experimenting with black again.