I think your deck is too heavy into red. Bb is a card that pressures our life already, so you don't want to be in a position to to have to shock all the time. Fatal push has made the appeal of terminate and bolt dissapear imo. The problem our deck has faced in the past is having early creature removal that's not totally dead mid-late game, like disfigure was. Bolt is nice reach but overall we're winning with flyers and manlands. Also, trying to get BR turn 2 for terminate is going to cause some mana issues, especially when you keep UUU in mind for cryptic. Valentin Mackl took a grixis list to day two of both GP Copenhagen and GP Vegas, but that was predominantly for 4 sb blood moon to bring in against eldrazi. K command is the best reason to splash red imo but even in my brief testing of Mackl's list, there are occasions where it's awkward to cast.
You answered your own question about scion, we don't even run that many faeries. I would look at Go for the Throat over Terminate, and also play another cryptic at least as well as some number of mana leak. I think countersquall is great sb, but not necessary main. Ancestral Vision is really slow and imo unplayable unless you're going against jund or some grindy match up that doesn't have counterspells. Good luck!
About increasing the fetch count, I think it is a bit sad to tear appart our "clean" manabase to switch to a really thorny one. With BB on the top of this, we end up losing so much life that we could be a Death shadow deck without death shadow... Fetch for shock = 3 faerie tokens :/
I'd be interrested in joining the discord too !
Someone actually tried DS with Bb and it's just not the same. You don't have the control to immediately lower your life for a big DS, and obviously can't sit at 2 life for 4 turns like the current lists do pretty often. I know what you're getting at, but unless you're trying to prolong the game super late every time, (like yutas list and in my experience, swords lists) one additional shock really doesn't make much difference (2 steam vents, one of which replaces a watery grave.) Discord players have recently been playing around 6 fetches, which yutas list also runs, so going to 9 with the strategy of pumping out a turn 2 tasigur makes a lot of sense to me. Cryptic command is always Bb insurance, and Mackl's list goes into a race most games, anyway. It's very much temp-aggro again.
Another note, cryptic is better Bb removal than Mbind, and snapping back cryptic is also a pretty important play. Snapcaster may not have many targets, but turn 3 flashback push or turn 4 flashback remand also seem pretty vital to yutas strategy.
Ware- I have asked Thatstroyteller120 to message you an invite
Eldrazi tron is a pretty bad match up with any variation of faeries. Mackl's grixis list runs 4 blood moon, which have the downside of turning off our manlands, but are hopefully hurting the opponent more than us. I'm not convinced that blood moons are worth the dedicated slots to such a bad match up, though it does have good game against many other decks in the meta. Overall, Mackl's list is designed to protect an early creature, and out tempo the opponent by playing an aggressive control style. Yutas list is much more dedicated control, and even drops vclique for more grindy cards. AV really shines in a deck that is dedicated to abusing lili, but I've found it way too slow for even my sword control builds.
Mbind has been the pet card every fae player wants to play. It wasn't good pre-push imo and it's even worse now. It requires a lot of setup when our Faerie package is really pretty low, and efficient removal isn't just limited to fatal push. I ran Hyunhs sword list for about a year before recently switching to mackl's grixis list, and like the distinct difference in playstyle of control vs tempo. Blood moon aside, kommand has been excellent and I've explained in several posts why an increase fetch count is already necessary for tas builds. I would suggest testing yutas exact 75 for a few games and then Mackl's, and see which style you prefer. Yutas list is even less of a Faerie list than usual, but if you want to win it's a very strong list. Hyunhs UB sword control list is also good, I can't say which is best and it's also probably dependent on your meta. Good luck!
Here's my current list. Ive swapped discard for a thought scour and tasigur package. Working well so far however I've been overdrawing tasigur so may swap 1 for gurmag angler. Thought scour filling the yard has been useful with snapcaster too. What is everyone's thoughts on collective brutality? Thinking about bringing 2 in instead of spell snare. Anyway some feedback would be appreciated.
I've also recently switched to a discard-less list, running Valentin Mackl's grixis list. Red splash aside, I think 9 fetches are important to increase the likelihood of turn 2 tasigur, which is one of the strongest plays we have. Also, playing with scour makes us want the 4th snap, since our flashback targets become more consistent.
Ancestral Vision is just too slow against most match ups. I recently cut my 3 sb copies altogether before switching to the grixis list. You may opt to keep them in the sb if your meta has a lot of grindy decks like BGx, jund, DS lists, or control. Grixis DS runs stubborn denial so I wouldn't want AV against them.
I definitely like CB sb for burn, elves, and combo/coco decks, but I don't like it mb. Sorcery speed is a big hindrance when most of our deck operates at instant speed. I think 1 copy of murderous cut is a must for scour lists. I've liked the 1 mb spell snare in Mackl's list, but you may try cb in its place and see how it runs. I would absolutely run at least 2-3 cb across the 75.
By the time you run 9 fetches to support early tasigur, a red splash isn't really any extra risk. Kommand has been an awesome value engine every time I've cast it. Blood moon in the sb hasn't seen much use yet, but I like the red for kommand, anyway. I'd also advocate a 3rd vclique to help your tempo game. Cage in the sb is going to hurt you as well as your opponent; id add another nihil spellbomb or something else altogether like surgical extraction.
Watching Valentin Mackl's coverage at both GP Copenhagen and GP Las Vegas was really insightful to help see how he focus on a tempo strategy most games. Good luck!
Thanks for the feedback, ive just picked up 4 copies of leyline of the void for the sb so that will swap out my cages and spellbombs. I love vclique and snap and would happily go to 3 and 4 of them respectively if i can find the slots - i guess that would come from cutting AV from the main. With no discard suite i wanted another 1 drop to thoughtscour though. I considered murderous cut but thought that might be too much with the 3 tasigurs (1 of which is now an angler)
Can you post/ link me to your list? And in the current meta on a wider scale, where do you think AV belongs? MB or SB? I definitley want 3 in the 75
I'm currently running Valentin Mackl's grixis list. No one can really tell you what to run sb since it's a meta dependent choice, but I'd say AV doesn't belong in the 75 in the current meta. It's just a really slow card for such a fast paced format. Turn 1 suspend is an impact on your turn 5. It's good against grindy decks, and re most popular grindy deck is currently grixis Shadow which can just stubborn denial AV-feels bad man.
Mackl's list runs 3 tas 1 cut and it works fine for me. The increased fetch count is definitely a necessary part of running out turn 2 tas more often-can't turn 2 angler.
I also highly suggest you watch the coverage posted as the top comment in the Reddit thread. Mackl commentates his plays and it's very helpful to see/hear his tempo style strategy in his own words. Also, message ThatStoryTeller120 if you're interested in joining the faeries discord. Is a very helpful resource for instant feedback. Most of us aren't as frequent on here anymore
Here's my current list. Ive swapped discard for a thought scour and tasigur package. Working well so far however I've been overdrawing tasigur so may swap 1 for gurmag angler. Thought scour filling the yard has been useful with snapcaster too. What is everyone's thoughts on collective brutality? Thinking about bringing 2 in instead of spell snare. Anyway some feedback would be appreciated.
I've also recently switched to a discard-less list, running Valentin Mackl's grixis list. Red splash aside, I think 9 fetches are important to increase the likelihood of turn 2 tasigur, which is one of the strongest plays we have. Also, playing with scour makes us want the 4th snap, since our flashback targets become more consistent.
Ancestral Vision is just too slow against most match ups. I recently cut my 3 sb copies altogether before switching to the grixis list. You may opt to keep them in the sb if your meta has a lot of grindy decks like BGx, jund, DS lists, or control. Grixis DS runs stubborn denial so I wouldn't want AV against them.
I definitely like CB sb for burn, elves, and combo/coco decks, but I don't like it mb. Sorcery speed is a big hindrance when most of our deck operates at instant speed. I think 1 copy of murderous cut is a must for scour lists. I've liked the 1 mb spell snare in Mackl's list, but you may try cb in its place and see how it runs. I would absolutely run at least 2-3 cb across the 75.
By the time you run 9 fetches to support early tasigur, a red splash isn't really any extra risk. Kommand has been an awesome value engine every time I've cast it. Blood moon in the sb hasn't seen much use yet, but I like the red for kommand, anyway. I'd also advocate a 3rd vclique to help your tempo game. Cage in the sb is going to hurt you as well as your opponent; id add another nihil spellbomb or something else altogether like surgical extraction.
Watching Valentin Mackl's coverage at both GP Copenhagen and GP Las Vegas was really insightful to help see how he focus on a tempo strategy most games. Good luck!
I've never liked the idea of 2 for 1-ing myself. Against decks like sun and moon, you don't need to tap out early for anything. Just play safe and counter their early moon or chalice, or commit to a race if it's game 1 maybe. I think our sb options are fine to deal with RW prison, and it's not a particularly common deck in my experience, anyway.
How is remand good against 1 cmc threats?? They just replay it and another threat the next turn. I recently tried remand and dropped it for mana leak, again, because it's just awful against low cmc threats like DS and Goyf. It's good against combo and big mana like tron, but otherwise requires a decent lead in board state to be good, imo. And vial? How do you counter T1 vial with remand??
I highly suggest running 4Iok and 2 Thoughtseize, though that doesn't mean you can't run AV as well(usually 3 max). AV is good in grindier match ups, so you may prefer them sb. Most Faerie builds are pretty creature-light aside from hardcore tribal builds. I would cut to 2 Mbind, up to 3 Vclique( eot 3 vclique into their upkeep Mbind, so you know the coast is clear, is an important play) cut Glen elendra, and sower. Jace is nice if you can flip him, but he's pretty slow. Looting isn't as good in a deck that wants to load up on hand size, and our deck doesn't play too many spells to warrant flashback play. 2 snapcaster would fill a better role of consistently flashing back spells like CC but also putting on aggression fast by flashing eot. Very often our clock looks like 1 damage, 3-6-10. Ensuring we have one or two extra turns to close the game is what we need, and I would suggest cutting a few CB (maybe to sb entirely for burn) and adding some more creature removal, discard, and remands. Go for the throats and dismember are good options, 2 of one along 4 push is good. CB being sorcery speed is a big turn off. However, it is probably the single best card ever printed against burn, so again it's a meta call. AV can still be good mb for decks like tron and Titan and especially jund/grixis, but it does depend on the meta. I've recently cut my solas and sofaf sb, taking after a friends list, but again Solas is really great in the grindier or fair deck games, getting back sss. Good luck!
A large portion of the Discord UB fae community has been off of Mbind for at least a 6 months, maybe closer to a year. The recurrence of big mana decks like tron or combo decks like ad naus make Mbind more appealing, but as you mention it is really poor in our bad match ups, and is good in the match ups we already seem favored in. I could see a potential 2 sb spots if your meta is just overrun with tron, but even then land hate may be more effective. I've been on Solas and sofaf mb since I cut Mbind, and have thoroughly enjoyed their utility. However, I've tried them in the sb and never once found myself desiring it post board. They don't really help any matches that other cards don't do more in its place.
Over the years I've traded off a lot of Faerie tribal flavor for a more hard-line control, trying to grind out with counters/removal/discard until manlands and snaps/tokens can win over a few turns chaining cryptics.
More practice with the deck is the best way to figure out your meta and decide how you like to operate the deck best. Your conclusion on Mbind is spot on imo, though plenty of people still run her(and honestly I think largely play the deck to cast her, lol) Good luck!
Putting 4 Death Shadows in a Faerie Deck because we have Bitterblossom is a lot worse than squeezing Bitterblossom in a Death Shadow deck.
I think Death Shadow is not really a card for this deck. That´s why we have to stretch into using Liliana, and then some more life loss, and some cards to dig for it... What you really want in the end is to put Bitterblossom in a Death Shadow deck.
The deck below is where I am up to so far, after several matches on MtGO. My last match was against Chord. The combination of discard, removal and counters obviously took Chord apart pretty well (2-0). From playing the deck, I feel like the key axis of synergy is the life loss and for me that argues more toward putting Shadow into a Bitterblossom deck, than the converse. Certainly dropping a huge hairy beater, and protecting it with Spellstutter and Cryptic, is feeling quite unfair. And the plan of letting Bitterblossom sink our life total to the needed levels is working out well so far.
If you recall the splash-green for Tarmogoyf Faeries decks from a few years back that put up a few results (they weren't better than UB Faeries but they won games), then I would point out that Tarmogoyf has next to no synergy with the rest of our deck whereas Death's Shadow ties right to our core. We have to spend life: spending life gets us stronger counterspells, evasive beat down, and a force field... and in this deck a huge hairy beater.
I forgot to try Slip Through Space so that will be next, replacing Serum Visions I think.
Tarmogoyf has just as much synergy as DS, if not more, since we have a lot of card types, including tribal, to grow Goyf quick. DS is a dead card anywhere above 13 life, and I think the idea of faeries has always been to play conservatively, until you can turn the corner and win in turn or two. DS feels clunky for this, and Tar pits and mutavaults should be swinging by that late in the game. I'd rather have more interaction than creatures to make sure I get there. Just my opinion
a lot of the UB sword control lists don't make as much use out of discard.
As a sword control player, I strongly disagree. DIscard may be less necessary in decks that aren't intending to win with a threat like Mbind mid to early-late game, but I feel the info and planning discard provides is often a crucial part of using your answers and interaction most efficiently. Even homogenous aggro decks with redundant cards, like FaeKeeler mentioned, are stumbling and not dealing optimal damage, taking us to a point where we can turn the corner. I feel it absolutely empowers our bluffs, since our opponent knows we have information of their hand, and will struggle with playing into a counter.
I agree with burningeffigy, BB is nice in an opening hand, and can offer an entire game strategy by itself, but is absolutely not necessary. Imo and experience its not even necessary to see one in the entire match if you sb well and pilot correctly. One of the articles on the first page, though dated, talks about looking for a "game plan" in your opening hand. I generally like at least 3 lands with some form of interaction at 2 or 1 mana. Mana leak, fatal push, discard, gftt, and even snapcaster in cases are good in an opening hand. Take a moment to plan out your first few turns, and make sure your mana meshes. I've kept an appealing 3 land hand with good interaction, only to realize I had a tar pit, a drowned catacomb and a darcklaick shores. In this case, it's usually better to drop tar pit turn one and leave untapped mana turn 2 onward. If you have a tar pit, drowned catacomb, and a mutavault, that may be worth mulliganning over.
I am almost positive Smugglers Copter is straight busted in Faeries. Ceremonius Rejection has a ton of good uses. I have this almost put together and am going to run it this coming Saturday.
Smug Copter has been tried pretty extensively by several fae players on the discord app, and general feedback is that it doesn't make the cut. Our deck operates mostly at instant speed, and we don't have very many reliable creatures (my list runs 14 including Mutavault, the one you linked runs 15) unless you have a BB in play. Copter also doesn't do anything when it hits the field, and may block something if we already have a blocker in play (could hit flying, I guess).
It also just straight up dies to bolt, which is always a good way to judge a creatures desirability in modern.
The list you linked is interesting, and I'm confident in saying the pilot knows what he's doing, but I think zero cryptic is tantamount to sacrilege in a faeries deck, and I also think 4 copter is too many if you choose to run it. There were 4 combo decks in the top 8 with our fae friend, Living End coming in first. These decks do pretty well against mid range and tron decks, and also happen to be good match ups for us.
I'm always looking for more data and results, even (especially) for cards I don't play with in my 75, so please let us know how you do next Saturday! I also like Ceremonious Rejection, and am currently trying 2 in my sb in place of 2 hurkyls recall.
You answered your own question about scion, we don't even run that many faeries. I would look at Go for the Throat over Terminate, and also play another cryptic at least as well as some number of mana leak. I think countersquall is great sb, but not necessary main. Ancestral Vision is really slow and imo unplayable unless you're going against jund or some grindy match up that doesn't have counterspells. Good luck!
Someone actually tried DS with Bb and it's just not the same. You don't have the control to immediately lower your life for a big DS, and obviously can't sit at 2 life for 4 turns like the current lists do pretty often. I know what you're getting at, but unless you're trying to prolong the game super late every time, (like yutas list and in my experience, swords lists) one additional shock really doesn't make much difference (2 steam vents, one of which replaces a watery grave.) Discord players have recently been playing around 6 fetches, which yutas list also runs, so going to 9 with the strategy of pumping out a turn 2 tasigur makes a lot of sense to me. Cryptic command is always Bb insurance, and Mackl's list goes into a race most games, anyway. It's very much temp-aggro again.
Ware- I have asked Thatstroyteller120 to message you an invite
Mbind has been the pet card every fae player wants to play. It wasn't good pre-push imo and it's even worse now. It requires a lot of setup when our Faerie package is really pretty low, and efficient removal isn't just limited to fatal push. I ran Hyunhs sword list for about a year before recently switching to mackl's grixis list, and like the distinct difference in playstyle of control vs tempo. Blood moon aside, kommand has been excellent and I've explained in several posts why an increase fetch count is already necessary for tas builds. I would suggest testing yutas exact 75 for a few games and then Mackl's, and see which style you prefer. Yutas list is even less of a Faerie list than usual, but if you want to win it's a very strong list. Hyunhs UB sword control list is also good, I can't say which is best and it's also probably dependent on your meta. Good luck!
Didn't realize reddits link was busted.
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/147493191?t=7h23m50s&desktop-redirect=true
Start watching at about 7 hours 23 minutes
I'm currently running Valentin Mackl's grixis list. No one can really tell you what to run sb since it's a meta dependent choice, but I'd say AV doesn't belong in the 75 in the current meta. It's just a really slow card for such a fast paced format. Turn 1 suspend is an impact on your turn 5. It's good against grindy decks, and re most popular grindy deck is currently grixis Shadow which can just stubborn denial AV-feels bad man.
Mackl's list runs 3 tas 1 cut and it works fine for me. The increased fetch count is definitely a necessary part of running out turn 2 tas more often-can't turn 2 angler.
Mackl's list can be found below
https://www.reddit.com/r/UBFaeries/comments/6hzav8/valentin_mackls_grixis_faeries_from_gp_vegas/
I also highly suggest you watch the coverage posted as the top comment in the Reddit thread. Mackl commentates his plays and it's very helpful to see/hear his tempo style strategy in his own words. Also, message ThatStoryTeller120 if you're interested in joining the faeries discord. Is a very helpful resource for instant feedback. Most of us aren't as frequent on here anymore
I've also recently switched to a discard-less list, running Valentin Mackl's grixis list. Red splash aside, I think 9 fetches are important to increase the likelihood of turn 2 tasigur, which is one of the strongest plays we have. Also, playing with scour makes us want the 4th snap, since our flashback targets become more consistent.
Ancestral Vision is just too slow against most match ups. I recently cut my 3 sb copies altogether before switching to the grixis list. You may opt to keep them in the sb if your meta has a lot of grindy decks like BGx, jund, DS lists, or control. Grixis DS runs stubborn denial so I wouldn't want AV against them.
I definitely like CB sb for burn, elves, and combo/coco decks, but I don't like it mb. Sorcery speed is a big hindrance when most of our deck operates at instant speed. I think 1 copy of murderous cut is a must for scour lists. I've liked the 1 mb spell snare in Mackl's list, but you may try cb in its place and see how it runs. I would absolutely run at least 2-3 cb across the 75.
By the time you run 9 fetches to support early tasigur, a red splash isn't really any extra risk. Kommand has been an awesome value engine every time I've cast it. Blood moon in the sb hasn't seen much use yet, but I like the red for kommand, anyway. I'd also advocate a 3rd vclique to help your tempo game. Cage in the sb is going to hurt you as well as your opponent; id add another nihil spellbomb or something else altogether like surgical extraction.
Watching Valentin Mackl's coverage at both GP Copenhagen and GP Las Vegas was really insightful to help see how he focus on a tempo strategy most games. Good luck!
Over the years I've traded off a lot of Faerie tribal flavor for a more hard-line control, trying to grind out with counters/removal/discard until manlands and snaps/tokens can win over a few turns chaining cryptics.
More practice with the deck is the best way to figure out your meta and decide how you like to operate the deck best. Your conclusion on Mbind is spot on imo, though plenty of people still run her(and honestly I think largely play the deck to cast her, lol) Good luck!
Tarmogoyf has just as much synergy as DS, if not more, since we have a lot of card types, including tribal, to grow Goyf quick. DS is a dead card anywhere above 13 life, and I think the idea of faeries has always been to play conservatively, until you can turn the corner and win in turn or two. DS feels clunky for this, and Tar pits and mutavaults should be swinging by that late in the game. I'd rather have more interaction than creatures to make sure I get there. Just my opinion
As a sword control player, I strongly disagree. DIscard may be less necessary in decks that aren't intending to win with a threat like Mbind mid to early-late game, but I feel the info and planning discard provides is often a crucial part of using your answers and interaction most efficiently. Even homogenous aggro decks with redundant cards, like FaeKeeler mentioned, are stumbling and not dealing optimal damage, taking us to a point where we can turn the corner. I feel it absolutely empowers our bluffs, since our opponent knows we have information of their hand, and will struggle with playing into a counter.
Smug Copter has been tried pretty extensively by several fae players on the discord app, and general feedback is that it doesn't make the cut. Our deck operates mostly at instant speed, and we don't have very many reliable creatures (my list runs 14 including Mutavault, the one you linked runs 15) unless you have a BB in play. Copter also doesn't do anything when it hits the field, and may block something if we already have a blocker in play (could hit flying, I guess).
It also just straight up dies to bolt, which is always a good way to judge a creatures desirability in modern.
The list you linked is interesting, and I'm confident in saying the pilot knows what he's doing, but I think zero cryptic is tantamount to sacrilege in a faeries deck, and I also think 4 copter is too many if you choose to run it. There were 4 combo decks in the top 8 with our fae friend, Living End coming in first. These decks do pretty well against mid range and tron decks, and also happen to be good match ups for us.
I'm always looking for more data and results, even (especially) for cards I don't play with in my 75, so please let us know how you do next Saturday! I also like Ceremonious Rejection, and am currently trying 2 in my sb in place of 2 hurkyls recall.