Has anybody mentioned that it can be used as land ramp and mana fixing for yourself?
Between this and Wasteland in Legacy you'll find that you can win games against certain decks if they stumble on mana even just a little bit. Land destruction is the real deal. Two-card combo!
Modern control decks, yes please. Sideboard card for even some combo decks, sure.
Standard will see play sets of 4 cropping up everywhere. "Tapping out for Teferi, Hero of Dominaria? I'll pop it I guess.".
Will make it hard to play up coming combo decks that rely on permanent cards in Standard.
So I mean assembling the combo you need to have a lot of your deck, a lot of time to play Mairsil multiple times, and also the cards for "make planeswalkers a creature or artifact" and time to play them out, as well as playing out a planeswalker or two.
But I do love me this type of deck, so I want to see it work. I think the best budget options are:
Jace, Memory Adept - Using the [0] ability to put 20 cards into your graveyard will give you access to combo cards to cage for Mairsil. [+1] will draw you into win conditions. This card is a must. Daretti, Scrap Savant - With the artifacts Memnarch, Mycosynth Lattice, Liquimetal Coating being so key for the combo, you want to be able to bring these into play from graveyard, either if they have been milled OR in the face of removal. [+2] will draw you into win conditions. Chandra, Pyromaster - [0] is pseudo draw and the [+1] is a win condition. Chandra, Flamecaller - [+1] is a win condition and [0] is great draw.
As far as the planeswalker you mention, a lot of them I really wouldn't rate them as great for your cause.
The good ones; Saheeli Rai- [+1] win condition and has other combos as you mentioned with [-2]. Teferi, Temporal Archmage - [+1] has draw and [-1] can help with mana and goes infinite with The Chain Veil. Tezzeret, Artifice Master - [+1] can be a win condition with creating infinite 1/1s and [0] provides draw. Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist - [+1] has draw, and yep as you say [0] can help with combo.
Average; Rowan Kenrith, Will Kenrith - Too be honest these are not perfect in this Mairsil deck, but the getting two-for-on is hard to pass up. You could consider Will [+2] a win condition as you can lock out all creatures with the infinite, which would be hard for your opponents to do anything creature wise. And then you can [+2] all your opponents creatures, then actually use the [-2] of the real Rowan to kill off all creatures. Saheeli, the Gifted - The [+1] 1/1s does provide a win condition. [+1] cost less, could help your cause, although defunct once you have infinite, and she has no draw. You can look to get other infinite's with her [-7] and Viral Drake + infinite mana + Memnarch/Mycosynth Lattice/Liquimetal Coating, so she does have some merit.
Why are the others not great? Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast - Infinite defenders isn't really a win condition. No draw. Killing a single creatures is too slow. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - Although the [+3] is near enough to a win condition, he has no draw. Ral Zarek - Unless you assemble infinite untaps, it's not like he provides much, if anything. Now don't get me wrong I play him in my Will& Rowan deck, but I specifically have a combo with Cloudstone Curio. Tezzeret the Schemer - Seems to slow. You already need infinite mana combos before you can look to do the planeswalker as a creature combo, so his [+1] doesn't actually add value even with infinite. Killing a single creature is too slow. The emblem can help your cause, but getting to an ultimate is hard to do.
Any card that gives you draw and discard are great, because you can just discard cards that you can cage with Mairsil, so there is no down side.
That's why cards like Faithless Looting are excellent, because it essentially gets you much deeper into your deck.
You'll have to trust me that once you play a deck like this, you'll realize just how many cards you need to get anything going. You're going to need to make your graveyard like your hand in order to reach the threshold of combination cards. Otherwise doing the math, let's say you go till Turn 10. That's 17 cards you'll naturally draw. 17% of your deck, and you're expecting to assemble 8 very specific cards. The statistical odds are not in your favor.
Sure there are a few ways to get infinite mana. There are a few ways to return Mairsil to hand. But it's still a big threshold of cards to come together.
Obviously playing as many "search your library" cards is going to help. So it's going to be a case of what can you get on a budget? Because the premium ones are very $$ expensive.
But some cheaper options are; Fabricate $3.49. Buried Alive $3.00. Whir of Invention $2.44. Final Parting $0.30. Inventors' Fair $3.29. Treasure Mage $0.34 can get you Memnarch or Mycosynth Lattice.
Windfall $1.00 can help you sift through your deck more quickly, and as I pointed out discarding cards is not necessarily a down side with Mairsil. Not always the case, you might be holding a specific card to do with the planeswalker as a creature combo. But I personally would play it to get my % chance of drawing into combo cards.
As far as protecting planeswalkers? I mean there are not a lot of solutions out side of removing them on-mass from the board.
In my Will + Rowan deck I do use Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs $1.02. Meishin, the Mind Cage $7.95 is an option.
I have been infatuated with the Kenriths since I saw them spoiled for Battlebond. I had been working on a deck list for a couple months before I found your post. My thoughts on my inclusions were all very similar to yours and our lists ended up almost the same aside from your mana base being far superior to mine, but there are a couple of cards I was curious about in your list.
Heart of Kiran can be crewed by taking a loyalty counter off a planeswalker, so it is a 4/4 flyer which can kill a lot of creatures threatening to attack them. So it might not even be that you have to crew it, it's going to be enough that creatures can't attack into you without causalities.
But it's also part of an infinite combo. I thought I had explained it in the primer but seem to not have explained it well. Heart of Kiran can in fact be used to purposeful send Will Kenrith back to the commander zone, by removing all his loyalty counters.
This way you get to recast him and use an ability again.
You might look to do this if you have Paradox Engine with artifacts that produce at least UU. Because Will [-2] makes planeswalkers cost 2 less, that means when you activate the ability it is always going to cover the commulative commander tax.
So you can just keep drawing 2 cards. It's one of the reasons that I put a high premium on Gilded Lotus and Coveted Jewel as you can get the UU for this.
You can also look to do this with Dream Halls. It's not deterministic, because you need to draw into blue cards off his [-2] ability.
Obviously the downside to this is that you are racking up commander tax, so if you pass the turn, then unless you get infinite again, you'll probably not be casting him again.
Because you can wait for an attack in on your planeswalkers and then cast Reins of Power targeting another opponent. You "exchange" creatures, and you can setup for some really big blowouts, by lining up blocks that can kill of both sets of opponents creatures.
So 'Opponent A' is attacking with creatures, then I cast Reins of Power swapping creatures with 'Opponent B'. I block 'Opponent A' creatures with 'Opponent B cretures', likely killing a bunch.
Because the deck is essentially creature-less, there is almost no downside. The only time this card could be really bad is if 'Opponent A' sends some creatures at me AND some creatures at 'Opponent B'. Because then 'Opponent B' could line up some bad blocks to kill off my creatures. But this scenario never comes up in this deck.
So you can almost think of this as a way to kill off two opponents creatures. Doesn't always line up like that, but it is a really good card to make opponents think twice about attacking you with all their creatures as well. So once your meta knows you potentially have it, it might save you some damage even if you don't draw it all game.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is just a great little creature. It can filter cards, help with mana screw or mana flooding or get you deeper into action cards. But literally on the flip side you can get value out of your instants and soceries. I do rate this guy at 2 mana.
Jace, Architect of Thought can provide protection with the -1/0 ability and this can be useful against go wide strategies. The [-2] does get you deep into your library for action. The ultimate is particularly good, you can really look to end the game. You setup the [-8] with the Deepglow Skate. For example you can get the biggest creatures/threats from opponents library and get Obliterate from yours, making sure you cast that first. Jace, Architect of Thought isn't amazing for the deck, but he does have value.
Yeah a few people have recommend Expropriate and honestly it's just because I don't have it. It is mana intensive as well. I think if I can get Saheeli, the Gifted into the deck then I'll look at Expropriate as an addition.
Just too many cards in the deck that can be countered to warrant Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Like opponents will still have an opportunity to disrupt you because you're still looking to land planeswalkers and artifacts. The coming into play tapped and life-loss does add up.
Tezzeret, Artifice Master is a little slow I think. The [0] draw is pretty nice but can't always guarantee you'll have 3 artifacts to draw 2. [0] is not building up to an ultimate either. The [+1] for a 1/1 is just not doing enough. The ultimate is pretty good, but from the example I showed you with Jace, Architect of Thought it is a little slow as well.
Mu Yanling [+2] and [-10] don't work with the deck at all, so all you're using her for is the [-3] draw 2 cards. Now this is nice, but you literally have to have an infinite combo, otherwise you get to use the ability to draw once, then next turn have to [+2] which does nothing to get another use out of her.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy would need extra support to work I think. It's similar to the reason that I don't have Jaya Ballard in the deck in that you need a certain threshold of instants and soceries to be effective. Now I used to have Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery in the deck. If there was say 8 more instants and soceries in the deck, then he might be valid.
There is absolutely Will and Rowan decks that are instants and soceries focused and not on the planewalker plan as much and Ral, Izzet Viceroy and Jaya Ballard will be great in them.
On another note: Are there 2 card combo's we could use in this deck.. and I do mean 2 cards that synergies with the deck also.. I found that I had options to search a few games but didn't really get to search for wins outright even though I searched multiple times in the last game... (Though also one was playing control blue, which made it harder to really get my gameplan going...)
I'm assuming that you're playing the Super Friends version. Let me know if you're playing any extra elements from the Reanimator deck as this will make different decision making potentially.
But it all comes down to how much mana you have, and what you might have already, either in hand or in play. So I'll try and give you some scenarios.
These decks are super intricate and complicated, and remembering exact amounts of mana you need to make things work is a real head scratchier. Like I've come up with the sequencing and I struggle to plan it out, so just like any deck you play, you will make mistakes/miscalculations, not know all the interactions, but that just means that you'll get forward to mastering it in time. It's only once you've actually assembled different combos a few times, that they'll click, and you'll be able to play them out better.
However you can just cast Arena Rector and hope to get it killed, with the fore-thought of also not getting Tezzeret killed before your turn however. Like you need to be able to protect him if Arena Rector is blocking and there are other opponents with creatures that can attack him. I've personally added Phyrexian Tower, so this is another card that you could easily tutor for if you've already got the Arena Rector.
I could honestly make a big decision tree diagram, that would list cards you might already have, and then what might be your best options. Available mana has a lot to do with it. But this is essentially how this deck plays. Figuring out your lines to combo and how to achieve them and you should make that part of the enjoyment, if it is a little stressful at first
There are also other infinite combos, but these are more if you have one or some of the cards already, or simply trying to get up to enough mana.
I activated Tezz while on 5 loyalty, getting Chain Veil, used Aminatou to blink Tezz, untapped 2 manarocks, paying for chain with them, now untapped chain on the second one and activated 1 rock.. having 1 spare mana, blinked Tezz again, rinse repeat.. Searching for colour rocks in between.. With colored mana used Demonic Tutor to try and look for an out to win.. Found Kaya (cause couldn't find any others that I could win with.. :P) Played Kaya and wel from there on just -1 her x4 then blink with Aminatou for life loss to death..
Now you can actually just use Tezzeret to search for Sensei's Divining Top, after you are essentially deep into the combo, as you have infinite. You can just tap to 'draw a card' it will go back on top, and then you use Tezzeret [-1] again to get it back out, so you can just draw your deck this way. Let me know if you don't have Sensei's Divining Top ($22) and we can try and figure out another card.
Here are the planeswalkers under $10 that would probably win you the game with either a [+] or [0] ability.
I've listed ones that draw, deal life loss/damage, but also ones that will put cards into your graveyard, whether that is from library or hand. This assumes that you will also have some win condition with Mairsil, the Pretender with a combination of artifacts/creatures.
My questions is does Mairsil, the Pretender get to activate that planeswalker abilities only once or infinite times during a turn? Or even if you can't use the abilities at all, because he is not a planeswalker?
I'm wondering if because he is not a planeswalker that he wouldn't fall under the same rules as "planeswalkers"? On the other hand their are some specific rules around Loyalty abilities.
So I think it comes down to whether these would just be considered activation's or whether they would actually fall under the umbrella of loyalty abilities?
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
306.5a The loyalty of a planeswalker card not on the battlefield is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.
306.5d Each planeswalker has a number of loyalty abilities, which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”
606. Loyalty Abilities
606.1. Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules.
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
606.4. The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability's cost.
606.5. A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can't be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
I just want to make sure that this doesn't fall under some restirctions with using "loyalty abilities"? Which there are a set of restrictive rules still.
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
306.5a The loyalty of a planeswalker card not on the battlefield is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.
306.5d Each planeswalker has a number of loyalty abilities, which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”
606. Loyalty Abilities
606.1. Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules.
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
606.4. The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability's cost.
606.5. A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can't be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
Is there are rules person who can clarify? I've high lighted that fact it does reference "permanent" and not planeswalker in certain instances.
It does say "Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.", so it does seem to be including any permanent still falls under the Loyalty restrictions. But I'm not a rules guy so can't make that call.
I can see that you can use Quicksilver Elemental ability from exile (cage) to give Mairsil, the Pretender the ability to copy a creature in play, so planeswalkers if you copy them. You can use these planeswalker abilities in your opponents turns as well, but only once. Just not sure on the "infinite".
I would just say in all honesty just ignore your commander for the most part, if you actually want a competitive deck.
The thing that he is 7 mana, so he only going to represent late game. He also requires a lot of mana to activate his ability, so again late game type of stuff.
So I would build a destroy everything you can type deck that you'd find more helmed by Mogis, God of Slaughter normally. What you can do is look to just keep removing the board as much as you can, with the idea of going into the late game.
That way you can resolve Kazarov, Sengir Pureblood and actually have a shot at just removing whatever your opponents have left.
Braid of Fire is awesome for generating mana for Kazarov.
So if that makes sense don't really worry about the +1/+1 and going Voltron, as you're just going to fail time and time again. Somebody will have removal for the first attack. So then he cost 9 mana to cast, and good luck again. Instead you need to be patient and wait out everybody else removal, while clearing the board yourself until you have like 10+ lands in play.
Then you're really using the 3R ability to wipe out whats going on. It is possible to play some of the double damage cards like Angrath's Marauders or more risky Dictate of the Twin Gods. But that means he'll ping for 4 damage, which is more likely to kill as single shots.
You could look at Horobi, Death's Wail as a way of one shot creatures. Basilisk Collar can give Kazarov deathtouch for the same effect. But I'd be careful about playing cards too specifically around him, for the reasons I pointed out above. That is to say they will do nothing on their own, and 90% of the time, games will be played without him on the board. That is just science
really digging the superfriends approach in one list. Not as big of a fan of Turbo Turns, but I can see where she really makes the deck and interactions fun to play. Would love to see your take on dropping fatties, such as Eldrazi Titans or Blightsteel Colossus
Actually Kozilek, the Great Distortion should probably be in both decks, but you're on.. Eldrazi deck coming up. I really like to take the deck angles to the extremes, as more like resource guides for people wanting to know the limits of themes (infinites or whatever) rather than a single homogenized deck, that covers too many angles. So having big fatties in the other two decks really isn't on theme.
But I am happy to go all out on what can be done in that direction. I'll start brewing. I have some central cards that I like in Saheeli and those are the zero and one mana cantrips artifacts, as they can help to accelerate your artifact count, or simply traded for another card if you need action.
Things like; Mishra's Bauble, Urza's Bauble, Sensei's Divining Top, Chromatic Sphere, Chromatic Star.
[quote from="void_nothing »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/798107-commander-zone-questions?comment=8"]No currently existing legendary creature (or legendary permanent of any kind) has imprint.
You can readily exile, for example, a commander creature on the battlefield with Duplicant, but it probably won't do you much good as far as the imprint ability itself - a commander's owner can have it be put into the command zone instead of exile as a replacement effect, so Duplicant's characteristic-defining ability will have no exiled card to look at.
Unless you're controlling the turn of the player who own's the commander.
Not true. The rule changed. Owner chooses, even if your turn is being controlled by another player, you choose
Do you have a source for this? Because as far as I know, this is not true. Nothing in the CR nor in the MTGCommander.net rules indicates that Commander has any sort of exception to this rule. Individual playgroups can do whatever they want, but that doesn't make it the rule.
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
Not that Magic Online is the gold standard for rules, but definitely only the owner of a commander can set the zones that they go to, even if another person is in control of it.
No currently existing legendary creature (or legendary permanent of any kind) has imprint.
You can readily exile, for example, a commander creature on the battlefield with Duplicant, but it probably won't do you much good as far as the imprint ability itself - a commander's owner can have it be put into the command zone instead of exile as a replacement effect, so Duplicant's characteristic-defining ability will have no exiled card to look at.
Unless you're controlling the turn of the player who own's the commander.
Not true. The rule changed. Owner chooses, even if your turn is being controlled by another player, you choose
Do you have a source for this? Because as far as I know, this is not true. Nothing in the CR nor in the MTGCommander.net rules indicates that Commander has any sort of exception to this rule. Individual playgroups can do whatever they want, but that doesn't make it the rule.
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
Between this and Wasteland in Legacy you'll find that you can win games against certain decks if they stumble on mana even just a little bit. Land destruction is the real deal. Two-card combo!
Modern control decks, yes please. Sideboard card for even some combo decks, sure.
Standard will see play sets of 4 cropping up everywhere. "Tapping out for Teferi, Hero of Dominaria? I'll pop it I guess.".
Will make it hard to play up coming combo decks that rely on permanent cards in Standard.
Commander staple for black/green inclusive decks.
I don't even draft (anymore) and can tell this is an excellent card for limited. Izzet will be popular choice for color matching in GRN for sure.
After all you already will need something like Mairsil caged = Quicksilver Elemental, Ovinomancer, Morphling, Gilded Lotus.
To actually get infinite mana and infinite return to hand, you'll also need haste, so Lightning Greaves or Anger or Thousand-Year Elixir type cards.
March of the Machines + Mycosynth Lattice in play for making planewalkers creatures.
So I mean assembling the combo you need to have a lot of your deck, a lot of time to play Mairsil multiple times, and also the cards for "make planeswalkers a creature or artifact" and time to play them out, as well as playing out a planeswalker or two.
But I do love me this type of deck, so I want to see it work. I think the best budget options are:
Jace, Memory Adept - Using the [0] ability to put 20 cards into your graveyard will give you access to combo cards to cage for Mairsil. [+1] will draw you into win conditions. This card is a must.
Daretti, Scrap Savant - With the artifacts Memnarch, Mycosynth Lattice, Liquimetal Coating being so key for the combo, you want to be able to bring these into play from graveyard, either if they have been milled OR in the face of removal. [+2] will draw you into win conditions.
Chandra, Pyromaster - [0] is pseudo draw and the [+1] is a win condition.
Chandra, Flamecaller - [+1] is a win condition and [0] is great draw.
As far as the planeswalker you mention, a lot of them I really wouldn't rate them as great for your cause.
The good ones;
Saheeli Rai- [+1] win condition and has other combos as you mentioned with [-2].
Teferi, Temporal Archmage - [+1] has draw and [-1] can help with mana and goes infinite with The Chain Veil.
Tezzeret, Artifice Master - [+1] can be a win condition with creating infinite 1/1s and [0] provides draw.
Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist - [+1] has draw, and yep as you say [0] can help with combo.
Average;
Rowan Kenrith, Will Kenrith - Too be honest these are not perfect in this Mairsil deck, but the getting two-for-on is hard to pass up. You could consider Will [+2] a win condition as you can lock out all creatures with the infinite, which would be hard for your opponents to do anything creature wise. And then you can [+2] all your opponents creatures, then actually use the [-2] of the real Rowan to kill off all creatures.
Saheeli, the Gifted - The [+1] 1/1s does provide a win condition. [+1] cost less, could help your cause, although defunct once you have infinite, and she has no draw. You can look to get other infinite's with her [-7] and Viral Drake + infinite mana + Memnarch/Mycosynth Lattice/Liquimetal Coating, so she does have some merit.
Why are the others not great?
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast - Infinite defenders isn't really a win condition. No draw. Killing a single creatures is too slow.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - Although the [+3] is near enough to a win condition, he has no draw.
Ral Zarek - Unless you assemble infinite untaps, it's not like he provides much, if anything. Now don't get me wrong I play him in my Will& Rowan deck, but I specifically have a combo with Cloudstone Curio.
Tezzeret the Schemer - Seems to slow. You already need infinite mana combos before you can look to do the planeswalker as a creature combo, so his [+1] doesn't actually add value even with infinite. Killing a single creature is too slow. The emblem can help your cause, but getting to an ultimate is hard to do.
Any card that gives you draw and discard are great, because you can just discard cards that you can cage with Mairsil, so there is no down side.
That's why cards like Faithless Looting are excellent, because it essentially gets you much deeper into your deck.
You'll have to trust me that once you play a deck like this, you'll realize just how many cards you need to get anything going. You're going to need to make your graveyard like your hand in order to reach the threshold of combination cards. Otherwise doing the math, let's say you go till Turn 10. That's 17 cards you'll naturally draw. 17% of your deck, and you're expecting to assemble 8 very specific cards. The statistical odds are not in your favor.
Sure there are a few ways to get infinite mana. There are a few ways to return Mairsil to hand. But it's still a big threshold of cards to come together.
Obviously playing as many "search your library" cards is going to help. So it's going to be a case of what can you get on a budget? Because the premium ones are very $$ expensive.
But some cheaper options are; Fabricate $3.49. Buried Alive $3.00. Whir of Invention $2.44. Final Parting $0.30. Inventors' Fair $3.29.
Treasure Mage $0.34 can get you Memnarch or Mycosynth Lattice.
Windfall $1.00 can help you sift through your deck more quickly, and as I pointed out discarding cards is not necessarily a down side with Mairsil. Not always the case, you might be holding a specific card to do with the planeswalker as a creature combo. But I personally would play it to get my % chance of drawing into combo cards.
As far as protecting planeswalkers? I mean there are not a lot of solutions out side of removing them on-mass from the board.
In my Will + Rowan deck I do use Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs $1.02.
Meishin, the Mind Cage $7.95 is an option.
But it's also part of an infinite combo. I thought I had explained it in the primer but seem to not have explained it well.
Heart of Kiran can in fact be used to purposeful send Will Kenrith back to the commander zone, by removing all his loyalty counters.
This way you get to recast him and use an ability again.
You might look to do this if you have Paradox Engine with artifacts that produce at least UU. Because Will [-2] makes planeswalkers cost 2 less, that means when you activate the ability it is always going to cover the commulative commander tax.
So you can just keep drawing 2 cards. It's one of the reasons that I put a high premium on Gilded Lotus and Coveted Jewel as you can get the UU for this.
You can also look to do this with Dream Halls. It's not deterministic, because you need to draw into blue cards off his [-2] ability.
Obviously the downside to this is that you are racking up commander tax, so if you pass the turn, then unless you get infinite again, you'll probably not be casting him again.
Because you can wait for an attack in on your planeswalkers and then cast Reins of Power targeting another opponent. You "exchange" creatures, and you can setup for some really big blowouts, by lining up blocks that can kill of both sets of opponents creatures.
So 'Opponent A' is attacking with creatures, then I cast Reins of Power swapping creatures with 'Opponent B'. I block 'Opponent A' creatures with 'Opponent B cretures', likely killing a bunch.
Because the deck is essentially creature-less, there is almost no downside. The only time this card could be really bad is if 'Opponent A' sends some creatures at me AND some creatures at 'Opponent B'. Because then 'Opponent B' could line up some bad blocks to kill off my creatures. But this scenario never comes up in this deck.
So you can almost think of this as a way to kill off two opponents creatures. Doesn't always line up like that, but it is a really good card to make opponents think twice about attacking you with all their creatures as well. So once your meta knows you potentially have it, it might save you some damage even if you don't draw it all game.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is just a great little creature. It can filter cards, help with mana screw or mana flooding or get you deeper into action cards. But literally on the flip side you can get value out of your instants and soceries. I do rate this guy at 2 mana.
Jace, Architect of Thought can provide protection with the -1/0 ability and this can be useful against go wide strategies. The [-2] does get you deep into your library for action. The ultimate is particularly good, you can really look to end the game. You setup the [-8] with the Deepglow Skate. For example you can get the biggest creatures/threats from opponents library and get Obliterate from yours, making sure you cast that first.
Jace, Architect of Thought isn't amazing for the deck, but he does have value.
Yeah a few people have recommend Expropriate and honestly it's just because I don't have it. It is mana intensive as well. I think if I can get Saheeli, the Gifted into the deck then I'll look at Expropriate as an addition.
Just too many cards in the deck that can be countered to warrant Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Like opponents will still have an opportunity to disrupt you because you're still looking to land planeswalkers and artifacts. The coming into play tapped and life-loss does add up.
Tezzeret, Artifice Master is a little slow I think. The [0] draw is pretty nice but can't always guarantee you'll have 3 artifacts to draw 2. [0] is not building up to an ultimate either. The [+1] for a 1/1 is just not doing enough. The ultimate is pretty good, but from the example I showed you with Jace, Architect of Thought it is a little slow as well.
Mu Yanling [+2] and [-10] don't work with the deck at all, so all you're using her for is the [-3] draw 2 cards. Now this is nice, but you literally have to have an infinite combo, otherwise you get to use the ability to draw once, then next turn have to [+2] which does nothing to get another use out of her.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy would need extra support to work I think. It's similar to the reason that I don't have Jaya Ballard in the deck in that you need a certain threshold of instants and soceries to be effective. Now I used to have Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery in the deck. If there was say 8 more instants and soceries in the deck, then he might be valid.
There is absolutely Will and Rowan decks that are instants and soceries focused and not on the planewalker plan as much and Ral, Izzet Viceroy and Jaya Ballard will be great in them.
But it all comes down to how much mana you have, and what you might have already, either in hand or in play. So I'll try and give you some scenarios.
These decks are super intricate and complicated, and remembering exact amounts of mana you need to make things work is a real head scratchier. Like I've come up with the sequencing and I struggle to plan it out, so just like any deck you play, you will make mistakes/miscalculations, not know all the interactions, but that just means that you'll get forward to mastering it in time. It's only once you've actually assembled different combos a few times, that they'll click, and you'll be able to play them out better.
With the Aminatou and Tezzeret the Seeker combo you need to put him into play AND have 4 to activate The Chain Veil if you were to try and win in the same turn. I've listed the sequencing here => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/796621-c18-1-4-aminatou-the-fateshifter-the-8-year-old#A
If you to cast Tezzeret naturally, means you'd need 3UU + 4, which is kind of unlikely early to mid game.
So by far the cheapest way of trying to get wins with little amounts of mana is the Flash + Arena Rector. You can even look to set this up to cast just before your turn as Flash is an instant, and this will mean that you literally only need to have 4 mana in play all up.
Cards that can get Flash are Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Spellseeker.
Cards that can get Arena Rector are Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Recruiter of the Guard.
However you can just cast Arena Rector and hope to get it killed, with the fore-thought of also not getting Tezzeret killed before your turn however. Like you need to be able to protect him if Arena Rector is blocking and there are other opponents with creatures that can attack him. I've personally added Phyrexian Tower, so this is another card that you could easily tutor for if you've already got the Arena Rector.
Oath of Gideon followed by Tezzeret the Seeker can also get an instant win. If you've already cast Oath of Gideon then Tezzeret will come into play with 5 loyalty. You can Tezzeret [-4] to get the The Chain Veil. Aminatou [-1] Tezzeret, and then he can [-1] to get Mana Vault. So you actually only need 3UU + 1 to start the combo (as you get the Mana Vault for the other 3). So this might also be a combination of cards you want to get.
The neat thing about Oath of Gideon is that it puts two 1/1s into play. So for example you could cast Oath of Gideon on Turn 3/4, and then cast Aminatou on Turn 4/5, maybe along with a tutor, and Aminatou [-1] the Oath of Gideon to put another two 1/1s into play all up, and this might be enough to really protect her. Then you could cast Tezzeret on Turn 6 assuming you have 6 lands.
Cards that get Oath of Gideon are Enlightened Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Academy Rector, Thalia's Lancers.
Cards that get Tezzeret the Seeker are Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Arena Rector, Thalia's Lancers.
Our next "cheapest" combos are to do with Felidar Guardian. The best card to combo with Felidar Guardian is Oath of Teferi. However it is imperative that you have some other card that can be blinked out with Aminatou [-1] to get value.
Make sure you read the Felidar Guardian section in the primer to know what all the cards are, but essentially any permanent (land, creature, planeswalker) that has an 'enter the battlefield' trigger.
I'm mentioning this because it is important that if you're looking to assemble the combo, as you have a Demonic Tutor, etc, that you do have another permanent if you do look to put Felidar Guardian and Oath of Teferi together.
Cards that can get Felidar Guardian are Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor.
Cards that get Oath of Teferi are Enlightened Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Academy Rector, Thalia's Lancers.
You might just have Spellseeker. You could cast Spellseeker and get Flash and then Aminatou [-1] the Spellseeker to get Vampiric Tutor. Vampiric Tutor can then get Arena Rector.
You might just have Recruiter of the Guard. You could cast Recruiter of the Guard getting Arena Rector then Aminatou [-1] Recruiter of the Guard to get Academy Rector. Then you could just cast them out and hope to get them killed, getting Tezzeret the Seeker and Oath of Teferi.
-OR-
You could use Recruiter of the Guard to get Spellseeker and then Aminatou [-1] Recruiter of the Guard to get Arena Rector. Cast Spellseeker to get Flash. This seems to be the better option. You could even Aminatou [-1] the Spellseeker to get counterspell backup, Pact of Negation, etc.
I could honestly make a big decision tree diagram, that would list cards you might already have, and then what might be your best options. Available mana has a lot to do with it. But this is essentially how this deck plays. Figuring out your lines to combo and how to achieve them and you should make that part of the enjoyment, if it is a little stressful at first
There are also other infinite combos, but these are more if you have one or some of the cards already, or simply trying to get up to enough mana.
Aminatou + Parallax Wave + Felidar Guardian + some other ETB creature that will win you the game.
Aminatou + Parallax Wave + Sun Titan + Heart of Kiran + some other ETB creature that will win you the game.
Aminatou + Emeria Shepherd + Clever Impersonator.
Aminatou + Emeria Shepherd + Heart of Kiran.
Aminatou + Sun Titan + Heart of Kiran + Oath of Teferi/The Chain Veil.
Now you can actually just use Tezzeret to search for Sensei's Divining Top, after you are essentially deep into the combo, as you have infinite. You can just tap to 'draw a card' it will go back on top, and then you use Tezzeret [-1] again to get it back out, so you can just draw your deck this way. Let me know if you don't have Sensei's Divining Top ($22) and we can try and figure out another card.
I've listed ones that draw, deal life loss/damage, but also ones that will put cards into your graveyard, whether that is from library or hand. This assumes that you will also have some win condition with Mairsil, the Pretender with a combination of artifacts/creatures.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded $2.94 - As long as you are using the bounce combo for Mairsil, the Pretender then any artifact/creature that gets discarded can be caged anyway. So you'll 100% get a win-condition.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver $6.82 - just leave opponents with a libraries.
Saheeli Rai $5.00
Jace, the Living Guildpact $2.54
Jace, Memory Adept $5.55
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets $4.19
Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage $4.96
Daretti, Scrap Savant $2.74
Chandra, Pyromaster $2.00
Chandra, the Firebrand $2.75
Chandra Nalaar $3.18
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer $4.37
Chandra, Flamecaller $3.00
Chandra, Pyrogenius $2.38
Liliana, Untouched by Death $7.97 - assumes an artifact or creature win as well.
Liliana, Death's Majesty $10.00 - assumes an artifact or creature win as well.
Liliana, the Necromancer $7.51
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath $6.15
Ob Nixilis Reignited $2.42 - this one is not guaranteed as you might be on low life before you draw into win con.
Jaya Ballard $4.49
Angrath, the Flame-Chained $5.99
Angrath, Minotaur Pirate $4.17
Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist $5.27
Tezzeret, Master of Metal $3.25 - assumes that you have an artifact win condition as well.
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh $7.00
Nicol Bolas, the Deceiver $5.17
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker $7.51 - not actually deterministic, but you can blow up opponents lands every turn.
[EDIT]
Actually I have a Will & Rowan Kenrith deck that has loops with planeswalkers using Cloudstone Curio which has very similar applications to what you will be looking to do. You can check out the interactions here => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/794212
I use the Quicksilver Elemental ability for Mairsil, the Pretender to gain the abilities of a planeswalker in play.
My questions is does Mairsil, the Pretender get to activate that planeswalker abilities only once or infinite times during a turn? Or even if you can't use the abilities at all, because he is not a planeswalker?
I'm wondering if because he is not a planeswalker that he wouldn't fall under the same rules as "planeswalkers"? On the other hand their are some specific rules around Loyalty abilities.
So I think it comes down to whether these would just be considered activation's or whether they would actually fall under the umbrella of loyalty abilities?
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
306.5a The loyalty of a planeswalker card not on the battlefield is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.
306.5d Each planeswalker has a number of loyalty abilities, which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”
606. Loyalty Abilities
606.1. Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules.
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
606.4. The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability's cost.
606.5. A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can't be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
306.5a The loyalty of a planeswalker card not on the battlefield is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.
306.5d Each planeswalker has a number of loyalty abilities, which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”
606. Loyalty Abilities
606.1. Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules.
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
606.4. The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability's cost.
606.5. A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can't be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
Is there are rules person who can clarify? I've high lighted that fact it does reference "permanent" and not planeswalker in certain instances.
It does say "Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.", so it does seem to be including any permanent still falls under the Loyalty restrictions. But I'm not a rules guy so can't make that call.
[EDIT]
I posted in the ruling forums, and it definitely seems like it still falls under the once per turn rule, because it's attached to the loyalty ability and not to do with actually being a planeswalker.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/798238-mairsil-the-pretender-planeswalkers-and-number-of#c2
I can see that you can use Quicksilver Elemental ability from exile (cage) to give Mairsil, the Pretender the ability to copy a creature in play, so planeswalkers if you copy them. You can use these planeswalker abilities in your opponents turns as well, but only once. Just not sure on the "infinite".
I've made a fairly intricate Saheeli, the Gifted based around making permanents artifacts, so that might give you some ideas. You can check it out here => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/797281
Also just add the link to your deck in your original post. This is your ideas list => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/6549-mairsil-the-superfriend
The thing that he is 7 mana, so he only going to represent late game. He also requires a lot of mana to activate his ability, so again late game type of stuff.
So I would build a destroy everything you can type deck that you'd find more helmed by Mogis, God of Slaughter normally. What you can do is look to just keep removing the board as much as you can, with the idea of going into the late game.
That way you can resolve Kazarov, Sengir Pureblood and actually have a shot at just removing whatever your opponents have left.
So you'd pack in all the mass creature removal in red and black. Things like Toxic Deluge, Bontu's Last Reckoning, Fire Covenant, Last One Standing, Damnation, Blasphemous Act, Decree of Pain.
You'd also play what's available as far as all permanent removal, so Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, All Is Dust, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
Then when everyone is bleed dry you can evoke the Kazarov, Sengir Pureblood with Pestilence/Pyrohemia/Crypt Rats as cards that you probably held onto.
Braid of Fire is awesome for generating mana for Kazarov.
So if that makes sense don't really worry about the +1/+1 and going Voltron, as you're just going to fail time and time again. Somebody will have removal for the first attack. So then he cost 9 mana to cast, and good luck again. Instead you need to be patient and wait out everybody else removal, while clearing the board yourself until you have like 10+ lands in play.
Then you're really using the 3R ability to wipe out whats going on. It is possible to play some of the double damage cards like Angrath's Marauders or more risky Dictate of the Twin Gods. But that means he'll ping for 4 damage, which is more likely to kill as single shots.
You could look at Horobi, Death's Wail as a way of one shot creatures.
Basilisk Collar can give Kazarov deathtouch for the same effect. But I'd be careful about playing cards too specifically around him, for the reasons I pointed out above. That is to say they will do nothing on their own, and 90% of the time, games will be played without him on the board. That is just science
Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Make sure you play Expedition Map.
But I am happy to go all out on what can be done in that direction. I'll start brewing. I have some central cards that I like in Saheeli and those are the zero and one mana cantrips artifacts, as they can help to accelerate your artifact count, or simply traded for another card if you need action.
Things like; Mishra's Bauble, Urza's Bauble, Sensei's Divining Top, Chromatic Sphere, Chromatic Star.
Infinite Replication Engine
Added
+ Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Removed
- Aether Spellbomb
Turbo Turns
+ Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Removed
- Lotus Petal
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.
Not that Magic Online is the gold standard for rules, but definitely only the owner of a commander can set the zones that they go to, even if another person is in control of it.
903.12. If a commander would be put into the exile zone from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead.