I have been playing EDH for a really long time, I mean almost since it started even... and I don't think cards like Sol Ring in general are an issue, there are many decks that don't even use it or don't have the room to make it work, I mean in my Ezuri deck I never used Sol Ring, cause mana elves where more efficient for the deck... just to name an example.. and I can tell you my Ezuri deck won ALOT.....
Sure there are sometimes blow outs where players mana ramp into 8 mana on like turn 3, but those can also happen with cards like Burgeoning or other ramp cards... so there is imbalance all over the place in that regard, but politics can make that player with the fast start regret it when they get stopped in their tracks, sure sometimes games can go their way because of the initial rush they made with the ramp, but most games those that rush with Sol Ring and such don't win, cause the table won't let them....
Everyone has their own way of playing and strategies vary so much that there is no real way to say what is fair or not, cards can be fair or unfair depending on how the players play their cards...
I have seen a few threads with cards that people found unfair and wanted to get banned... namely Craterhoof, mindslaver, etc...
But there are many of such cards that some find unfair and others are fine with, where do we draw the line with the banning... do we ban every card that is a 2 card combo, do we ban all early mana accel while we are at it, what do we have left after we do that, a meta that gets boring and slow to a halt where games last forever....
The diversity is key in making EDH fun, wether it be casual or competitive, whichever you prefer to play as a group is up to the group really... we have a bit of both here... some play really cutt-throught and others play just casual and for fun with weird cards...I play a bit of both, which doesn't always help me, cause people tend to think I play cutt-throught all the time...
The thing is that if you run mana dorks as ramp, then you are much more prone to creature board wipes and spot removal (been there done that several thousand times), which there are a lot more effects/cards that are run in games. Artifact mana is much less prone to early removal and most of the time, once removal comes its too late, the acceleration is done.
Cards like Burgeoning still require a certain hand to work. You need the lands in hands for a pay off. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt just have none of these requirements and allow for turn 1 extra plays.
Listen when it's all said and done 99% of the people online are loving the games without these cards. Its a better format. We are play testing it for you. We have the most knowledge now about the pros and cons of these cards. No virtual opinions please.
Clearly Wizards of the Coast couldn't care less about these cards being a "staple" as they are quick to remove them when given the opportunity, so just evolve people.
I've subsequently made another deck with Aetherwork Marvel as the theme, a 5 color brew.
All in all obviously when you have one card as a theme, it's pretty hard to get conistantly going. Definitely only for casual metas.
I did play against a Gitrog Monster deck today that made excellent use because so many land cards were going to graveyard. No extra "energy" cards were needed. So if you have a token deck, or something that puts a lot of permanents into play its worth considering.
Basically sets were released from Alliances onwards. So sets like Legends, Arabian Knights, etc, were never released in their entirely retrospectively. But have had single cards released in things like Legendary Cube, etc.
Most of the cards have been printed but there are definitely a large amount of cards from these earlier sets that have never been released.
I am a Magic Online multi player and have been playing currently under the ban/unban list that has been to accommodate a 1vs1 environment since May 10.
There is a plan by Wizards of the Coast to reintroduce the MTGCommander.net ban list on July 5.
First of all the positive experience has been the removal of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. This really has made a better experience in regards to making sure the games are more balanced with opening hands and starts. Games have been more fun without these cards.
OK, so I am the sort of person that likes to try and break cards if given the opportunity. The result? No surprises Prophet of Kruphix completely takes over the game. This cards needs to be banned.
How about the other unbanned and banned cards? Here is the list and how I feel about them from general intuition and play testing.
Coalition Victory - Ban (Just a little too easy to get the requirements with a five color commanaders at the ready)
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - WATCH LIST - Is this card actually worse than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? Maybe..
Leovold, Emissary of Trest - Ban
Panoptic Mirror - Ban
Primeval Titan - WATCH LIST - Although a great card, it feels only a bit more powerful than Sun Titan and Consecrated Sphynx at the same cost.
Recurring Nightmare - Ban
Sway of the Stars - Unban - Very specific build to make this playable, and the result is not a very good deck.
Sundering Titan - WATCH LIST - Needs a certain deck, but I am an advocate of not having land removal that can target a single opponent.
Sylvan Primordial - WATCH LIST - It is a good card, but having to spread out removal can mean that a single opponent is harder to blow out. Has tested not to be too powerful imo.
Upheaval - WATCH LIST - Hard to build a deck that can make this card really worth while. It can be done, and feels horrible to opponents, but as far as a game ending combo, needs a lot of setup and without the easy artifact mana like Sol Ring/Mana Cyrpt, the build is slow.
Sway of the Stars - Unban - Almost impossible to make a deck that works well with this card.
Prophet of Kruphix - Ban
Current Banned Cards
Mana Crypt - Ban
Sol Ring - Ban
Mana Vault - Ban
Sensei's Divining Top - Ban
Gaea's Cradle - Ban
Mishra's Workshop - Ban
Bazaar of Baghdad - Unban, although can be used to fuel a reanimator deck, the cost of a land drop, plus a threshold of cards to discard, makes this card unbannable.
Doomsday - Unban, playing this card in a meta that has disruption is very hard to pull off a win.
Entomb - Ban
Food Chain - Ban
Hermit Druid - Ban
Protean Hulk - Unban, actually making a deck that can instant win off this card, needs a specific build.
Survival of the Fittest - Ban
Back to Basics - Ban
Humility - Unban (good to have a meta which has to deal with enchantments in a non-ETB creature style)
Mana Drain - Unban
Mind Twist - Unban (only 1vs1 strong)
Moat - Unban
Natural Order - Ban
Necropotence - Ban
Oath of Druids - Ban
Serra Ascendant - Ban
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Ban
But if all these current Banned cards remain banned, I personally do not mind that for the health of the meta. In fact if the MTGO multiplayer ban list was to be a combination of both the Leviathan (1vs1) and MTGCommander.net, then we would have a simple solution to more fun meta. Anything that is banned in either of the list is banned, even if not banned on another list.
So I feel like having a ban list which MTGO have been or can be happy with is something that we should have a say in. WoTC does listen to its customers, as can be seen by the response to reintroducing a multiplayer ban list on July 5. Granted it was rolled out in a poor way and had little regard to the multiplayer community, but here is a chance for WoTC to listen to us properly, redeem themselves if you will.
I would like MTGO multiplayer to have its own ban list, as can be experience by us the players.
Ultimately there will be disagreements with what cards should be banned or unbanned, but for me, the important part is the removal of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. These cards being banned has made the format better, I feel every player feels this online so far. Let everybody know what you think?
I personally do not mind an aggressive ban list. Proactively trying to balance the game, is certainly more fun for everybody, than those who try to break the format. I am VERY guilty of trying to break the format, so just making everything on the list above banned, is a more positive experience, than having the game blows outs via Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt.
I am hoping to get enough Magic Online players to support this type of approach so that we have a voice to make suggestions to WoTC for an ongoing Ban list for us.
Please let everybody know what you would like to be banned/unbanned if you're a MTGO multiplayer? I want us to have our own meta where our play experience is the most important.
Feel free to personal message me on MTGO via my account SAS_NZ
If you're an advocate for this, then also feel free to leave your username on this thread, so that we can collate a list of users who feel this is a positive move towards a better play experience. I am personally wanting to try and champion this, so with enough of us, I can approach Wizards of the Coast about it.
I'm sure its been mentioned before in the thread, but with Amonkhet cycle lands, Astral Slide becomes a much better card.
I've been running a lands cycle package with Fluctuator, Astral Slide and Life from the Loam in my Roon deck. Its very powerful in this type of deck. Even if you don't have Fluctuator in play, you can still spend mana to cycle to gain draw and extra blink through Life from the Loam. It is a card drawing engine which is able to grind through disruption as its very hard to stop, recurring Life from the Loam, to then cycle the lands drawn.
If you're adding these to your Roon deck, then running Sun Titan and Reveillark become stronger because of the Life from the Loam dredges.
Right over the last week I've really tried to get a cycling deck that's at least ok. I've played multiple versions, played plenty of games and tweaked a lot. The result is that its its just not really up to anything but very casual play. But even then you're playing a very complicated deck. Its a lot of complicated sequences to just get a tiny bit of value.
In short cards that give cycling advantage are just not strong enough. You NEVER have enough mana to get value from the cards in ways that you want. Drake Haven, Lighting Rift, etc all require 1 mana each time and between trying to further your board and cycling for advantage, its just never ends up being favorable. It requires so many cards to get setup as well. In short, too hard to get setup for minimal value.
I tried to adjust by giving it more mana ramp to accommodate the big mana needs, but ultimately the pay off cards like Drake Haven, Lighting Rift, etc are just too weak even when you're setup.
I decided against a combo style deck because there are just too many pieces to get anything going. Its already a fragile style deck, and this just makes it more fragile.
The one card that is good is Astral Slide. I did end up making a Roon of the Hidden Realm, with Ancestral Slide and a lands cycling package. This deck is very good. Essentially it just has Fluctuator and Astral Slide, along with 9 cycle lands and a Life from the Loam. This package is really nice in a deck that gains advantage through blinking creatures in and out of play. You don't have to invest much into the cycling theme and you gain a great attrition card drawing engine and ETB gains.
This caused so much unnecessary confusion and is exactly why Wizards needs to keep out of the business of EDH and just let the RC do it's thing. Screw the people with giant hate boners for the RC, this entire thing has been an exercise in why it's not a good idea for Wizards to interject.
Wizards should stay out of printing Commander cards? No more R&D and sets for Commander, hmmm interesting perspective. Personally I like having Wizards make it part of their business, lol.
The most positive thing is that MTGO is going to get a meta that does seek to balance itself with banning/unbannings. That's the whole point of having their own list. We just saw in the last standard bannings how they are not afraid to ban a card immediately, and largely based off MTGO statistics. This is what I was suggesting in this thread is that data is important. Sure at the moment its probably non-existent for MTGO commander, but it will only get better. The game will just get better and better according to metas on MTGO. More analysis, feedback loops. RC was just never going to be equipped to understand the changing meta according to new set releases.
RC basically has a policy of "please don't break the game, make decks that are fun and fair". Hmmm, yeah, that's not quite how it works buddies for the entire human population.
Yes the unbanning of some cards is a problem for multiplayer, but at least we know that they CAN fix it. Where as RC just doesn't. It takes a couple of years, before its gets to the point of FFS. WoTC can make changes within weeks and they probably will. I would wouldn't be surprised to see a multiplayer ban list within a few months. It's just that they want to get the ball rolling.
<OMG I'm so happy to be free of RC inability to act and just general lack of knowledge of competitive metas. Bye, bye for good.>
As an actual player on MTGO everybody has been very positive about the changes even for multiplayer. Guess what? People are sick of Sol Ring and Mana Crypts dominating early play. Games just got better.
Cards like Upheaval and Sway of the Stars become much worse without Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault. Actually pulling off advantage requires a major setup, of which there are other combos that are much easier to do.
Its exactly what I was asking for in starting this thread and naysayers were like, "No, WoTC will never want to take on that responsibility".
The ban list is great, waaaaaaay better than RC provides, as I've been trying to convey that they just don't have the time to devote to an ever changing demand. Its WoTC product now and they want to support it as much as they can. So very excited by this turns of events.
You're really stretching to try to claim some victory here championing a 1v1 ban list specifically designed for an EDH environment that is completely different from multiplayer paper EDH games. Their 1v1 banlist for the vastly different MTGO environment couldn't be more irrelevant to paper EDH, especially multiplayer, and they even went as far as to say the changes are because 1v1 is more prevalent online - EDH is not the same on MTGO as it is in paper. They even state the reasons for this change. I feel like your post came out of the mouth of a Magic player at FOX News, because it conveniently ignores the facts of the matter.
WoTC sell commander products each year, its worth a lot of money to them. I can see in the not too distant future, that the list becomes official for their (Commander not EDH) paper game as well. Its up the public to decide if they want to go EDH or Commander list, but of course it just makes sense to follow a list that is actively sort to balance the game for the general buyers of cards and not surprisingly WoTC actually have an understanding of whats is going on, which I've been pointing out RC do not. RC only know something when mob riots break out and only a year after the fact as well. Listen I'm just saying "watch this space"...it's just a matter of time before the change over is done and we can all get on with playing a better game.
Its exactly what I was asking for in starting this thread and naysayers were like, "No, WoTC will never want to take on that responsibility".
The ban list is great, waaaaaaay better than RC provides, as I've been trying to convey that they just don't have the time to devote to an ever changing demand. Its WoTC product now and they want to support it as much as they can. So very excited by this turns of events.
Also with zero mana cost creatures you can do incredible value off: Stoneforge Mystic + Puresteel Paladin + (2 CMC left over) + (Crimson Kobolds/Crookshank Kobolds/Kobolds of Kher Keep/Dryad Arbor/Memnite) (Ornithopter/Sheild Sphere/Phyrexian Walker)
Stoneforge Mystic gets Skullclamp and can draw at least 11 cards. A Viscera Seer type card would allow you to draw off the other >1 toughness creatures)
Pili-Pala + Grand Architect + Spikeshot Elder = infinite mana and damage. There are plenty of 1 CMC creatures in other colors for pumping up the power stat of creatures
Cards like Burgeoning still require a certain hand to work. You need the lands in hands for a pay off. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt just have none of these requirements and allow for turn 1 extra plays.
Listen when it's all said and done 99% of the people online are loving the games without these cards. Its a better format. We are play testing it for you. We have the most knowledge now about the pros and cons of these cards. No virtual opinions please.
Clearly Wizards of the Coast couldn't care less about these cards being a "staple" as they are quick to remove them when given the opportunity, so just evolve people.
I've subsequently made another deck with Aetherwork Marvel as the theme, a 5 color brew.
All in all obviously when you have one card as a theme, it's pretty hard to get conistantly going. Definitely only for casual metas.
I did play against a Gitrog Monster deck today that made excellent use because so many land cards were going to graveyard. No extra "energy" cards were needed. So if you have a token deck, or something that puts a lot of permanents into play its worth considering.
Most of the cards have been printed but there are definitely a large amount of cards from these earlier sets that have never been released.
I am a Magic Online multi player and have been playing currently under the ban/unban list that has been to accommodate a 1vs1 environment since May 10.
There is a plan by Wizards of the Coast to reintroduce the MTGCommander.net ban list on July 5.
First of all the positive experience has been the removal of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. This really has made a better experience in regards to making sure the games are more balanced with opening hands and starts. Games have been more fun without these cards.
OK, so I am the sort of person that likes to try and break cards if given the opportunity. The result? No surprises Prophet of Kruphix completely takes over the game. This cards needs to be banned.
How about the other unbanned and banned cards? Here is the list and how I feel about them from general intuition and play testing.
Coalition Victory - Ban (Just a little too easy to get the requirements with a five color commanaders at the ready)
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - WATCH LIST - Is this card actually worse than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? Maybe..
Leovold, Emissary of Trest - Ban
Panoptic Mirror - Ban
Primeval Titan - WATCH LIST - Although a great card, it feels only a bit more powerful than Sun Titan and Consecrated Sphynx at the same cost.
Recurring Nightmare - Ban
Sway of the Stars - Unban - Very specific build to make this playable, and the result is not a very good deck.
Sundering Titan - WATCH LIST - Needs a certain deck, but I am an advocate of not having land removal that can target a single opponent.
Sylvan Primordial - WATCH LIST - It is a good card, but having to spread out removal can mean that a single opponent is harder to blow out. Has tested not to be too powerful imo.
Upheaval - WATCH LIST - Hard to build a deck that can make this card really worth while. It can be done, and feels horrible to opponents, but as far as a game ending combo, needs a lot of setup and without the easy artifact mana like Sol Ring/Mana Cyrpt, the build is slow.
Sway of the Stars - Unban - Almost impossible to make a deck that works well with this card.
Prophet of Kruphix - Ban
Current Banned Cards
Mana Crypt - Ban
Sol Ring - Ban
Mana Vault - Ban
Sensei's Divining Top - Ban
Gaea's Cradle - Ban
Mishra's Workshop - Ban
Bazaar of Baghdad - Unban, although can be used to fuel a reanimator deck, the cost of a land drop, plus a threshold of cards to discard, makes this card unbannable.
Doomsday - Unban, playing this card in a meta that has disruption is very hard to pull off a win.
Entomb - Ban
Food Chain - Ban
Hermit Druid - Ban
Protean Hulk - Unban, actually making a deck that can instant win off this card, needs a specific build.
Survival of the Fittest - Ban
Back to Basics - Ban
Humility - Unban (good to have a meta which has to deal with enchantments in a non-ETB creature style)
Mana Drain - Unban
Mind Twist - Unban (only 1vs1 strong)
Moat - Unban
Natural Order - Ban
Necropotence - Ban
Oath of Druids - Ban
Serra Ascendant - Ban
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Ban
But if all these current Banned cards remain banned, I personally do not mind that for the health of the meta. In fact if the MTGO multiplayer ban list was to be a combination of both the Leviathan (1vs1) and MTGCommander.net, then we would have a simple solution to more fun meta. Anything that is banned in either of the list is banned, even if not banned on another list.
EDH Ban list
(http://MTGCommander.net)
Leviathan Ban list
(http://leviathancommander.it/rules/banlist/)
So I feel like having a ban list which MTGO have been or can be happy with is something that we should have a say in. WoTC does listen to its customers, as can be seen by the response to reintroducing a multiplayer ban list on July 5. Granted it was rolled out in a poor way and had little regard to the multiplayer community, but here is a chance for WoTC to listen to us properly, redeem themselves if you will.
I would like MTGO multiplayer to have its own ban list, as can be experience by us the players.
Ultimately there will be disagreements with what cards should be banned or unbanned, but for me, the important part is the removal of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. These cards being banned has made the format better, I feel every player feels this online so far. Let everybody know what you think?
I personally do not mind an aggressive ban list. Proactively trying to balance the game, is certainly more fun for everybody, than those who try to break the format. I am VERY guilty of trying to break the format, so just making everything on the list above banned, is a more positive experience, than having the game blows outs via Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt.
I am hoping to get enough Magic Online players to support this type of approach so that we have a voice to make suggestions to WoTC for an ongoing Ban list for us.
I am gathering from http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online/1v1-commander-banned-list that Bryan Hawley has been involved in the process. So this could be the person to contact?
Please let everybody know what you would like to be banned/unbanned if you're a MTGO multiplayer? I want us to have our own meta where our play experience is the most important.
Feel free to personal message me on MTGO via my account SAS_NZ
If you're an advocate for this, then also feel free to leave your username on this thread, so that we can collate a list of users who feel this is a positive move towards a better play experience. I am personally wanting to try and champion this, so with enough of us, I can approach Wizards of the Coast about it.
I've been running a lands cycle package with Fluctuator, Astral Slide and Life from the Loam in my Roon deck. Its very powerful in this type of deck. Even if you don't have Fluctuator in play, you can still spend mana to cycle to gain draw and extra blink through Life from the Loam. It is a card drawing engine which is able to grind through disruption as its very hard to stop, recurring Life from the Loam, to then cycle the lands drawn.
If you're adding these to your Roon deck, then running Sun Titan and Reveillark become stronger because of the Life from the Loam dredges.
I've also added Crucible of Worlds, Realms Uncharted, Intuition and Tilling Treefolk to the deck, which with Life from the Loam, are just great card advantage. Tilling Treefolk can end up like a pseudo Life from the Loam with blink abilities.
I also have Exploration, Burgeoning, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Oracle of Mul Daya, as they are great on their own and combine with the lands package nicely. Its nice when these cards are still good to draw mid to late game as well.
In short cards that give cycling advantage are just not strong enough. You NEVER have enough mana to get value from the cards in ways that you want. Drake Haven, Lighting Rift, etc all require 1 mana each time and between trying to further your board and cycling for advantage, its just never ends up being favorable. It requires so many cards to get setup as well. In short, too hard to get setup for minimal value.
I tried to adjust by giving it more mana ramp to accommodate the big mana needs, but ultimately the pay off cards like Drake Haven, Lighting Rift, etc are just too weak even when you're setup.
I decided against a combo style deck because there are just too many pieces to get anything going. Its already a fragile style deck, and this just makes it more fragile.
The one card that is good is Astral Slide. I did end up making a Roon of the Hidden Realm, with Ancestral Slide and a lands cycling package. This deck is very good. Essentially it just has Fluctuator and Astral Slide, along with 9 cycle lands and a Life from the Loam. This package is really nice in a deck that gains advantage through blinking creatures in and out of play. You don't have to invest much into the cycling theme and you gain a great attrition card drawing engine and ETB gains.
RC basically has a policy of "please don't break the game, make decks that are fun and fair". Hmmm, yeah, that's not quite how it works buddies for the entire human population.
Yes the unbanning of some cards is a problem for multiplayer, but at least we know that they CAN fix it. Where as RC just doesn't. It takes a couple of years, before its gets to the point of FFS. WoTC can make changes within weeks and they probably will. I would wouldn't be surprised to see a multiplayer ban list within a few months. It's just that they want to get the ball rolling.
<OMG I'm so happy to be free of RC inability to act and just general lack of knowledge of competitive metas. Bye, bye for good.>
Cards like Upheaval and Sway of the Stars become much worse without Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault. Actually pulling off advantage requires a major setup, of which there are other combos that are much easier to do.
Its exactly what I was asking for in starting this thread and naysayers were like, "No, WoTC will never want to take on that responsibility".
The ban list is great, waaaaaaay better than RC provides, as I've been trying to convey that they just don't have the time to devote to an ever changing demand. Its WoTC product now and they want to support it as much as they can. So very excited by this turns of events.
- Crimson Kobolds
- Crookshank Kobolds
- Kobolds of Kher Keep
- Dryad Arbor
- Phyrexian Walker
- Sheild Sphere
- Memnite
- Ornithopter
- Phyrexian Marauder
- Walking Ballista
- Endless One
- Hangarback Walker
- Shifting Wall
Academy Rector + Viscera Seer + Disciple of the Vault + (Phyrexian Marauder/Walking Ballista/Endless One/Hangarback Walker/Phyrexian Walker/Sheild Sphere/Memnite/Ornithopter/Shifting Wall)Academy Rector gets Enduring Renewal
Also with zero mana cost creatures you can do incredible value off:
Stoneforge Mystic + Puresteel Paladin + (2 CMC left over) + (Crimson Kobolds/Crookshank Kobolds/Kobolds of Kher Keep/Dryad Arbor/Memnite) (Ornithopter/Sheild Sphere/Phyrexian Walker)
Stoneforge Mystic gets Skullclamp and can draw at least 11 cards. A Viscera Seer type card would allow you to draw off the other >1 toughness creatures)
Also Disciple of Bolas and Phyrexian Dreadnought to draw 12 cards, plus you still got 1 CMC left
Saffi Eriksdotter + Loyal Retainers = infinite ETB triggers
Pili-Pala + Grand Architect + Spikeshot Elder = infinite mana and damage. There are plenty of 1 CMC creatures in other colors for pumping up the power stat of creatures
Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid + Orochi Leafcaller + Spikeshot Elder = infinite mana and damage.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Kitchen Finks + Viscera Seer = infinite life and infinite scry
Sacred Guide + Laboratory Maniac + Wall of Omens/Elvish Visionary/Wall of Blossoms in a deck that doesn't have any other white cards.
I feel like Phantasmal Image must be able to combo off with another 4 CMC of creatures?