Leiline of the sanctiny is also funny option. It shuts down grapeshot and also gifts ungiven which slows them considerably. Then you can just wait for their goblins to LE the board. But i think, killing their manadork is most important so beast within/shriekmaw is your best friend here.
I also play 3 Archfiends. I watched travis woo's video, but i think 4 may be too slow sometimes which he compensate with 4 shriekmaws. I only have 2 so 3 archfiends is ok, you want at least one in any game. Because I think people are underestimating them. You can always see the pain in your opponents eyes when you have one on board and they are trying to do combat math (The best trick is to have macabre or wraith and be tapperd out so they feel they are safe).
Lets think about ideal turn 3 LE (mana usage wise, so no wraiths). You can get Cerodon turn and horor and a cerodon turn 2. which gets you to 16 power which is 2 turn clock, assuming opponent doesnt play any blockers(and I know, if you somehow got 2 more cyclers in hand, your horror can make lethal, but that much luck would not happen too often and opponent will always block the demon if they can). But if you go turn 1 cerodon, turn 2 archfiend, on turn 3 you get 11 power which is also 2 turn clock...but you only used 2 cyclers, so most likely you will have at least one in your hand after. so a)you can sometimes kill anything they bring out even before blocks and b)make them chump block and not kill your other creautures while still gettitng in for 5 in the air. I had many games like this now, you got 2 creatures on board, hand full of cards and just attack and opponent cant really do anything about it.
Also, you got SSGs....which make you archfiend 1 mana cycler too.
Dusting off my deck and updating it for a slew of Modern PPTQs in July and August. Wondering what the current sideboard plan is for Dredge. It doesn't seem to be worth it to pack 4x Leyline, but is Faerie Macabre and maybe Jund Charm out of the board enough? Wondering if we should be considering the original tech and bringing in Yixlid Jailer as a 1 of to cascade into. Most Dredge anti-hate cards hit enchantments and artifacts, other than Conflagarate.
Thoughts?
I would say our creatures are so much bigger and better now that you dont need any special dredge hate card. Those faeries with help of the Archfiend will do just fine.
"wrath is no vice when inflicted upon the deserving"
for living end mirror sand bag those faerie macabre, a well timed use will swing the match a long way in your favor
I have thought about leylines, but I have one issue (aside from price) if you use leyline you need 4 of them to hit them in your opening hand. Drawing them later is usually dead card. So assuming I would have 4 leyline of sanctity and while we are at it, 4 leyline of the void (against mirror, dredge, storm) in my SB. How would the rest of you SB look? And what other matchups would you use leyline of sanctity in?
It may see that way but I play LE for 2 years now Before, I would agree with you, but now with Arfiend and Horror, I must dissagree....1 of those can beat anything post LE those decks you mention can get into play.
Also, Pulse always gives me 6 life, Boar and Spike feeder only 4. Gnaw to the bone can give you also 6 life turn 3 (and is also only instant of these 3) but you have to have perfect cycles turn 1 and 2. Sometimes that doesnt happen and against burn I dont wanna depend on my luck. And Pulse have added value with returning either land or cycler in your hand. Sure, in late game, flashback from Gnaw can get handy, but I think 1)against burn (which this card is for) you dont get late game and 2)if you flashback Gnaw for some value it means you have full grave and didnt LE...which means you lose anyway.
But after watching our lord and saviour's TWOO video, I will probably move Beast within to SB and get at least 3 Fulminators back in, because yeah, destroying lands is super fun!
I'd like to contribute my thoughts about LE with recent updates. My testing and results show, that it may be completely ok to abandon land destruction plan B for more intensive all-in plan A. New amonkhet creatures are that good! And Im talking mostly about Archfiend and Horror. Some ppl say, that cycling for 2 is too slow. But I say its nonsence. Because sequence of turn 1 cycler, turn 2 archfiend and turn 3 LE with 2-3 cyclers in hand will overcome anything an opponent may field after that. Also horror (better 2 of them) on field make combat math very hard for opponents.... Personally, I want minimum of 2 Archfiends in my deck, maybe 3. If you've resolved it agains any deck that uses creatures, you know its THAT good. And Arfiend and Horror together are almost unbeatable.
So when it comes to land destruction plan, I think it existed in the first place mainly because 2 things: one, fulminator is in our colours and two, lack of more playable cycling creatures. There are really very few matchups where I would rather spend my turn 3 to destroy 1 land instead of getting 2 turn clock on board. So Im ok shaving LD plan for more cyclers to have more consistent and stronger plan A. LD and fightning against non-creatures deck should be left to SB.
While i want show, that all creatures expept SSGs are cyclers now (Faerie is best surprise cycler when we are tapped out and have Arfiend/Horror on board ) which makes the deck more consistent, I want to discuss the Sideboard more. I feel I have more or less everything I need....but I also feel I should have at least 2 slots for LD against tron (either Fulminator or Blood moon). But maybe thats not true anymore, since this version can be a lot faster than before....
What do you think guys? What would you play with this maindeck and what you wouldnt?
Also, which matchups would you consider to be okay to have Lost legacy? Right now I can think only about storm and scapeshift..are there any more decks in the meta right now that would be hurt badly by it?
You got 2 (or 3, since you can take 4th LE out if we are not playing As Foretold) instead of Beast within. What does it mean? No land destruction and making tokens for demonic dread. You still got your fulminators you got your land denial plan going, if you want more, you can always get in avalanche riders. No token for Dread is also ok, since you got second cascade which doesnt need targets. Also, you can always play one Dryad arbor if you are worried about this. PROs: you got quicker interaction in certain hurtful matchups. Turn 1 on the draw can kill ooze before it eats your graveyard, turn 2 can kill Thalia, so you can LE next turn. etc. which Beast within without SSG cant do.
I strongly disagree with Dismember being a fitting replacement for Beast Within. Beast Within is still our only enchantment removal (and it is even MB) and I think you are underestimating the value of land destruction and token production. I have played so many games, which were decided by right amount of land destruction.
Sure, but I dont think MB enchantment removal is really that necessary. And SBwise, you got better options thanks to white. And as I said, you still got fulminators and you can get Avalanche riders, but in my experience, if your not going down the blood moon path, fulminators as land destruction are more than enough. Also, Im sure we all played games that were decided by that, but also many which werent. Heck, I even remember games where I got killed only by my own beast token.... but that doesnt mean Beast within is bad card, but it also doesnt mean that you cannot play and win without it. Sure, it is certainly most universal card but right now Im curious what spicy white hate cards can be used in its place
EDIT: like this, Wispmare. its probably a ***** card, but it can be used and it goes with LE philosophy.
Someone enlighten me but why do I see lists with 1x kari zev's expertise?
I understand we can cast a LE off it if we naturally draw a LE during game. Sure stealing an opponent's dude at any given point of the game isn't a useless ability. But I feel like if people are including it for just the "oh crap I just top decked a LE *sadface*" insurance... I don't see it being that good?
That and Remand matchups. Also, can be sometimes surprise kill against death shadow, tron, or something which finishes with big creatures. But i personally would bother with it unless i was playing Blood moon main package
If you want to use As foretold, you likely want to abuse it's ability to play 0 mana stuff so you would want, at the least Ancestral Visions. As soon as you do that you really should cut all the cascade from your list. It fundamentally changes the list.
4 As foretold
3 Kari Zev's Expertise
4 Living End
That will be your core package, and now the deck requires you have those cards together in your hand, and you lose instant speed
Since you are using As fortold, you now want other cards to abuse. Likely it's:
4 Ancestral Visions
You still need ramp to make sure you can start doing this early on:
4 SSG
And then you need cyclers. The deck is now base blue red so you start there:
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Desert Cerodon
4 street wraith
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Architects of Will
And Fulminator is still red, so you really should play it
4 Fulminator mage
And just like that, your deck is basically already built short of land. Now answer me this. With this configuration:
What are the benefits of this list over Living End? Let me list out what you lose:
Instant speed wrath / LE
All purpose removal, land denial, and token generation with beast within
The need to only have 1 card in your hand to combo instead of 2.
Some better cyclers (the Horror) over Architechts
-If you drop the cascades spell you no longer need 3CMC cards.
-Just add some black and you got all the removal you want and play the horror.
-You dont need the token produce by beast within if you dont olay démo ic dread.
Im not sold to as foretold...just somethings I saw from what you write
Exactly! But I dont wanna go this way, I think the cascade is still the best way to do LE, but what I get from this list for me is better set of creatures.
the only time i consider splashing blue is back when splinter twin was legal. other than that you risk running into consitency issues. having to fetch and shock with steam vents or watery grave is scary especially in the death's shadow meta right now.
Emma Handy know nothing about living end. Good living end player know most of the games are won on the back of violent outburst so replacing it with sorcery speed card like ardent plea and as foretold, removing beast within and relying on drake haven as alternative win condition is totally ludicrous
i would say that the build that run 1 kari zev's expertise are the most optimal build in an unknown meta. if you want to play the full blown cascade list run the most recent Twoo list (although he admit it to be somewhat lackluster).
TL,DR: running blue is sub optimal, violent outburst is still the king, full blown cascade doesnt always win the game, just stick to the proven standard stock list until something really good comes around.
You guys are still talking about splashing and consistency but Im trying to say its a new build, new colours, so blue is not really a splash. Heck, that Emma Handy build, I think As Foretold is in the just to show it of. I dont want it in. You can take those 3 copies out and put lands in and I think its still competitive build. Why? Lets talk it through:
1) Dismember instead of Beast Within
You got 2 (or 3, since you can take 4th LE out if we are not playing As Foretold) instead of Beast within. What does it mean? No land destruction and making tokens for demonic dread. You still got your fulminators you got your land denial plan going, if you want more, you can always get in avalanche riders. No token for Dread is also ok, since you got second cascade which doesnt need targets. Also, you can always play one Dryad arbor if you are worried about this. PROs: you got quicker interaction in certain hurtful matchups. Turn 1 on the draw can kill ooze before it eats your graveyard, turn 2 can kill Thalia, so you can LE next turn. etc. which Beast within without SSG cant do.
2)Better creatures IMHO
You lose those clunky minoutaurs that always shoot you faeries and got your new curator, you play 4 architects which most of you do anyway and can hardcast them all the time with no sweat, you lose those slow spiders who would always got chumped anyways and got new brutal archfiends.
Sooo...you now got 8 freaking flyers maindeck!!!! This lets you fly over anything LE might bring back from you opponents graveyard and win.
Also, I would personally swap carabids for the new Horrors. Its always so sad to see carabid running and dieing crashing against super-big goyf. This would certainly be an upgrade. But maybe we want to keep focus on blue/red so one land can cycle all our creatures, so you can still upgrade carabids for Desert cerodons. Still, overall, this makes better army than our current rooster.
3)Drake haven IS good sideboard plan.
If graveyard hate is prominent in your local meta, or globally anyway, drake haven is great card to play around that. you no longer need to sandbag you cyclers hoping to draw beast to kill RiP. Now you can have Havens, 2 other hate removal cards, heck even SB Le out and laugh histerically at their graveyard hate. you just cycle, make drakes, then get curator and archfiend out and kill them. OR just switch haven for Faith of the devoted and just drain them out. This would be really funny if death shadow player gets dangerously low on life and you just kill them with two cyclers :DDDD
4) Im little worried about that White mana. But adding those 3 lands instead of As foretold and little tweaking, it should be ok and reliable.
To end this, this is all just speculations. But when i finally have time this weekend, this list as I talked about it is first I will be heavily testing and expect positive results. Still, that doesnt mean that the old and tested build is suddenly bad or something. its still great, even though I strongly suggest sacking carabids and minotaurs for beasts and horrors. But i think this build provides fresh perspective and experience and maybe is less hateable.
Now, what do you think? Its something I have in my mind to test. Definitely agree about that there is maybe time/space to change the colours. IMHO, we dont need green that much because matches where instant LE is enough and sorcery LE is not are really few in my experince. I will surely try this build online, since As Foretold is now ridiculously overpriced.
I don't get why people are getting so crazy about a 4/4 flyer with an off-color cycling cost, this deck is already killing opponets with limitedfodder. Living End has other things to worry about (Burn, Affinity, Remands. etc)
I have to agree with this - I think everyone agrees the flier "could" fit into the deck nicely enough but it feels a bit "win more" to me. The matches we struggle against are vs aggro and counterspells. Heck, I lost a game the other day vs Grixis control because I fetched a shockland on turn one instead of a basic; ultimately losing to losing to bolt, snap, bolt putting me to exactly zero! What I'm trying to say is that making the manabase even more painful/slower does not appeal at all; especially when the cards added do nothing to the aforementioned match ups.
I dunno, LE is wrath in its self, so that helps against aggro, control is slow, that means you have time to develop your mana. Burn is and probably always will be a problem, regardless of manabase you play. I mean, if you're worried about life in a matchup, you can have 1 dual and 1 basic and access to 3 colours on turn 2 which is more then enough to function.
But I understand your view, as I said before, maybe in current version, new cards dont help much, but maybe, there will enough good cards to make a new build succesfull.
It's modern, mana base is not a problem with fetches. I play 1 steam vents in my list exactly so I can hardcast architects, because sometimes turn LE doesn't do it (gets countered, grave got removed, etc.) and that's where turn 4 playable creature is relevant. Now, Architects were nothing much, but 4/4 flying has certanly more impact to the board and pass the bolt test.
Nowm, as I said before, we are still waiting for the rest of the spoilers, but I already think, that RUGW version is playable and worth testing. I heard someone saying, that demonic dread saves a lot of games because of no block. Well, guess what, you dont need dread when 8 freaking creatures you have are flying over opponent. Also, that exalted trigger may surely come handy sometimes.
So to finish this, Curator is a great card for LE, but maybe not just for the common build. But i believe that with right build and manabase it would work.
I don't know....I play LE for about a year now and the games where I actually pulled turn 3 LE and it was enough to win the game are really scarse. So Im opting now more, i guess controlling build with blood moon and focus on LD. Which is where I think As Foretold has place. Also, Kari Zev needs a target, As Foretold doesn't.
But that's something only time and testing will tell. Right now, Im hoping we will get 1 mana cycler fot other colours in our deck.
Seeing As foretold and the sphinx, Im thinking moving more to the blue base. Switching minotaurs for Sphinx and some demonic dreads for As foretold.
My logic is, that Im also trying implement 3 maindeck Blood moons.
Ideal play:
Turn 1: fetch island, cycle
Turn 2: get blood moon
Turn 3: get as foretold
Now, you opoonent is locked out of the game for some time(unless playing monored). Now assuming you got blue mana, you can still cycle 4 of you creatures (architects, sphinx, wraith and carabid). Then you either draw living end, or charge as foretold to cast cascade spell regardless of it colored mana cost.
You still got fulminator package to hinder their speed and it should be pretty easy to win.
now, it could be awkward without blue, but still, blood moon lock helps in a lot of games to stall and win anyway without all the colours. Only thing Im a little worried is consistency. Guess i have to wait for xmage update and test it out.
Also, as foretold is not really that necessary. But i still thing, that sphinx is better that minotaur because of flying, which justify moving more in to blue.
What do you think? Have anyone tried Blood moon builds? I only started testing it few days ago, but it seems, that in many games its practically an auto win.
Lets think about ideal turn 3 LE (mana usage wise, so no wraiths). You can get Cerodon turn and horor and a cerodon turn 2. which gets you to 16 power which is 2 turn clock, assuming opponent doesnt play any blockers(and I know, if you somehow got 2 more cyclers in hand, your horror can make lethal, but that much luck would not happen too often and opponent will always block the demon if they can). But if you go turn 1 cerodon, turn 2 archfiend, on turn 3 you get 11 power which is also 2 turn clock...but you only used 2 cyclers, so most likely you will have at least one in your hand after. so a)you can sometimes kill anything they bring out even before blocks and b)make them chump block and not kill your other creautures while still gettitng in for 5 in the air. I had many games like this now, you got 2 creatures on board, hand full of cards and just attack and opponent cant really do anything about it.
Also, you got SSGs....which make you archfiend 1 mana cycler too.
I would say our creatures are so much bigger and better now that you dont need any special dredge hate card. Those faeries with help of the Archfiend will do just fine.
I have thought about leylines, but I have one issue (aside from price) if you use leyline you need 4 of them to hit them in your opening hand. Drawing them later is usually dead card. So assuming I would have 4 leyline of sanctity and while we are at it, 4 leyline of the void (against mirror, dredge, storm) in my SB. How would the rest of you SB look? And what other matchups would you use leyline of sanctity in?
Thanks
Also, Pulse always gives me 6 life, Boar and Spike feeder only 4. Gnaw to the bone can give you also 6 life turn 3 (and is also only instant of these 3) but you have to have perfect cycles turn 1 and 2. Sometimes that doesnt happen and against burn I dont wanna depend on my luck. And Pulse have added value with returning either land or cycler in your hand. Sure, in late game, flashback from Gnaw can get handy, but I think 1)against burn (which this card is for) you dont get late game and 2)if you flashback Gnaw for some value it means you have full grave and didnt LE...which means you lose anyway.
But after watching our lord and saviour's TWOO video, I will probably move Beast within to SB and get at least 3 Fulminators back in, because yeah, destroying lands is super fun!
So when it comes to land destruction plan, I think it existed in the first place mainly because 2 things: one, fulminator is in our colours and two, lack of more playable cycling creatures. There are really very few matchups where I would rather spend my turn 3 to destroy 1 land instead of getting 2 turn clock on board. So Im ok shaving LD plan for more cyclers to have more consistent and stronger plan A. LD and fightning against non-creatures deck should be left to SB.
Here is my list now which I am testing:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/666139#paper
While i want show, that all creatures expept SSGs are cyclers now (Faerie is best surprise cycler when we are tapped out and have Arfiend/Horror on board
What do you think guys? What would you play with this maindeck and what you wouldnt?
Also, which matchups would you consider to be okay to have Lost legacy? Right now I can think only about storm and scapeshift..are there any more decks in the meta right now that would be hurt badly by it?
Thanks!
Sure, but I dont think MB enchantment removal is really that necessary. And SBwise, you got better options thanks to white. And as I said, you still got fulminators and you can get Avalanche riders, but in my experience, if your not going down the blood moon path, fulminators as land destruction are more than enough. Also, Im sure we all played games that were decided by that, but also many which werent. Heck, I even remember games where I got killed only by my own beast token.... but that doesnt mean Beast within is bad card, but it also doesnt mean that you cannot play and win without it. Sure, it is certainly most universal card but right now Im curious what spicy white hate cards can be used in its place
EDIT: like this, Wispmare. its probably a ***** card, but it can be used and it goes with LE philosophy.
That and Remand matchups. Also, can be sometimes surprise kill against death shadow, tron, or something which finishes with big creatures. But i personally would bother with it unless i was playing Blood moon main package
Exactly! But I dont wanna go this way, I think the cascade is still the best way to do LE, but what I get from this list for me is better set of creatures.
You guys are still talking about splashing and consistency but Im trying to say its a new build, new colours, so blue is not really a splash. Heck, that Emma Handy build, I think As Foretold is in the just to show it of. I dont want it in. You can take those 3 copies out and put lands in and I think its still competitive build. Why? Lets talk it through:
1) Dismember instead of Beast Within
You got 2 (or 3, since you can take 4th LE out if we are not playing As Foretold) instead of Beast within. What does it mean? No land destruction and making tokens for demonic dread. You still got your fulminators you got your land denial plan going, if you want more, you can always get in avalanche riders. No token for Dread is also ok, since you got second cascade which doesnt need targets. Also, you can always play one Dryad arbor if you are worried about this. PROs: you got quicker interaction in certain hurtful matchups. Turn 1 on the draw can kill ooze before it eats your graveyard, turn 2 can kill Thalia, so you can LE next turn. etc. which Beast within without SSG cant do.
2)Better creatures IMHO
You lose those clunky minoutaurs that always shoot you faeries and got your new curator, you play 4 architects which most of you do anyway and can hardcast them all the time with no sweat, you lose those slow spiders who would always got chumped anyways and got new brutal archfiends.
Sooo...you now got 8 freaking flyers maindeck!!!! This lets you fly over anything LE might bring back from you opponents graveyard and win.
Also, I would personally swap carabids for the new Horrors. Its always so sad to see carabid running and dieing crashing against super-big goyf. This would certainly be an upgrade. But maybe we want to keep focus on blue/red so one land can cycle all our creatures, so you can still upgrade carabids for Desert cerodons. Still, overall, this makes better army than our current rooster.
3)Drake haven IS good sideboard plan.
If graveyard hate is prominent in your local meta, or globally anyway, drake haven is great card to play around that. you no longer need to sandbag you cyclers hoping to draw beast to kill RiP. Now you can have Havens, 2 other hate removal cards, heck even SB Le out and laugh histerically at their graveyard hate. you just cycle, make drakes, then get curator and archfiend out and kill them. OR just switch haven for Faith of the devoted and just drain them out. This would be really funny if death shadow player gets dangerously low on life and you just kill them with two cyclers :DDDD
4) Im little worried about that White mana. But adding those 3 lands instead of As foretold and little tweaking, it should be ok and reliable.
To end this, this is all just speculations. But when i finally have time this weekend, this list as I talked about it is first I will be heavily testing and expect positive results. Still, that doesnt mean that the old and tested build is suddenly bad or something. its still great, even though I strongly suggest sacking carabids and minotaurs for beasts and horrors. But i think this build provides fresh perspective and experience and maybe is less hateable.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34914_The-Living-End-As-Foretold.html
Now, what do you think? Its something I have in my mind to test. Definitely agree about that there is maybe time/space to change the colours. IMHO, we dont need green that much because matches where instant LE is enough and sorcery LE is not are really few in my experince. I will surely try this build online, since As Foretold is now ridiculously overpriced.
Suspending LE means you have no more outs and are hoping for a miracle anyway. Thanx for Kari zev's expertise, you can cast it without suspend.
I dunno, LE is wrath in its self, so that helps against aggro, control is slow, that means you have time to develop your mana. Burn is and probably always will be a problem, regardless of manabase you play. I mean, if you're worried about life in a matchup, you can have 1 dual and 1 basic and access to 3 colours on turn 2 which is more then enough to function.
But I understand your view, as I said before, maybe in current version, new cards dont help much, but maybe, there will enough good cards to make a new build succesfull.
Nowm, as I said before, we are still waiting for the rest of the spoilers, but I already think, that RUGW version is playable and worth testing. I heard someone saying, that demonic dread saves a lot of games because of no block. Well, guess what, you dont need dread when 8 freaking creatures you have are flying over opponent. Also, that exalted trigger may surely come handy sometimes.
So to finish this, Curator is a great card for LE, but maybe not just for the common build. But i believe that with right build and manabase it would work.
But that's something only time and testing will tell. Right now, Im hoping we will get 1 mana cycler fot other colours in our deck.
My logic is, that Im also trying implement 3 maindeck Blood moons.
Ideal play:
Turn 1: fetch island, cycle
Turn 2: get blood moon
Turn 3: get as foretold
Now, you opoonent is locked out of the game for some time(unless playing monored). Now assuming you got blue mana, you can still cycle 4 of you creatures (architects, sphinx, wraith and carabid). Then you either draw living end, or charge as foretold to cast cascade spell regardless of it colored mana cost.
You still got fulminator package to hinder their speed and it should be pretty easy to win.
now, it could be awkward without blue, but still, blood moon lock helps in a lot of games to stall and win anyway without all the colours. Only thing Im a little worried is consistency. Guess i have to wait for xmage update and test it out.
Also, as foretold is not really that necessary. But i still thing, that sphinx is better that minotaur because of flying, which justify moving more in to blue.
What do you think? Have anyone tried Blood moon builds? I only started testing it few days ago, but it seems, that in many games its practically an auto win.