I agree with what your saying, reactive seems to be the way to go. And you also right in the format lacking the tools (what I wouldnt give for some path to exiles or relic of progenatus for the deck), but I'm also not aiming for tier 1 more fnm level, and quite honestly I'm a little board of the linier decks that currently dominant my local, so this is my attempt to add some good old fashioned jank back in
I think I'll play around and see if I can coble together a somewhat working shell, and refine it down on mtgo before a invest in paper.
hi new to pioneer (coming from modern) and trying to brew up a deck to play with.
always wanted to build a deck around Ulamog's Nullifier but never quite found the right shell in modern, im hoping pioneer is its place to shine
is this a viable core for a deck?
and then with a shed load of removal and interaction?
have i missed anything obvious?
which interaction is currently the most relevant or is it better to go in on favourable winds and go more aggressive?
thanks for any help you guys can give and i'll be interested to see what this becomes
I play Commander a lot and used to compete in tournaments locally but today I do not play in tournaments anymore. I was having issues when it comes to the events. Control decks are a big problem in the Maltese community and they are very dominant compared to aggro, tribal and other decks. Playing against a control deck to infuriating for a casual player such as myself and that is why I quit competiting in tournaments and instead I prefer to play casually at home or at my local community against decks are not control. Control decks make the game very unfair and the commander committee must reevaluate all blue cards and start banning those OP formats as the format is completely broken thanks to blue.
um im a little confused... you seem to be having a rant about blue based control in edh.... this is a budget modern thread....about combo decks.... with no blue... and its a necro thread from 5 years ago....
the two card from that that i would consider are athreos if there was another reason to run a lot of no loose sac effects and sin collector is viable sb but most of the time i would prefer a straight up castigate.
i have since this post refined the build and top 4ed a fnm with in
cant believe no ones yet commented on this but Shadowspear!!!!!
how this is something worth equipping to an aggressively costed kor! legends not great, but does work really nicely with the rest of the deck, 1 cmc is huge and the keywords are ones the deck hast really has access to before. im off to brew/test/ ill pop back with a list (also the cards screams budget build so may try one of those as well)
i always loved Nightsky Mimic in pauper, and when we started to get new good B/W gold cards again i started to have an experiment, i've recently honed the deck down to is current form and i feel like i need a fresh pair of eyes.
ive been running it on mtgo for a while, its stomps most of tier 2-3 decks. against the main contenders
death shadows around 50/50, mb Kaya's Guile is extremely brutal against them.
tron bit of a struggle. the decks need a little more pw removal ive tried a few despark in sb, alongside damping sphere but it can still be a struggle, (its still winnable especially with 3 mb ghost quarters, but it's definitely a uphill battle that we loose slightly more than we win)
wirza /urza oko, we we disrupt strongly in the early game and if we can deal with oko within 2 turns we can definitely win this
Nightsky Mimic, our flying goyf and build around, if it's not answered asap it will win games pretty quickly, especially with a little discard and a Edge of the Divinity
Kaya's Guile this card is often our best draw, at least 2 modes are always relevant and it turns on mimic and sets up Wasteland Strangler
Orzhov Pontiff kill a surprisingly high amount of stuff in the tier 2 category, and the pump can also be useful when trying to quickly close down a game against a recovering opponent
Doom Foretold i originally tried this as a joke but am generally impressed with how well it stays with the deck. getting rid of problematic perminants (with the amount of disruption the deck runs it often only has 1 or 2 targets that we can't deal with any other way). sacing our own stuff is rarly and issue as ,Orzhov Pontiff, [/c]Edge of the Divinity[/c] or just a small tempo cast like strangler and bellhaunt that have already traded a card are normally a ok price to pay for a second permanent or just the value. speaking of the value trigger, yeah that happens.
Flagstones of Trokair and Ghost Quarter our fetchlands/ fixing / land destruction package. its included as the whole packages costs less than a single marsh flats and tends to work pretty well
anyway i'm looking for ideas and new possible synergies to include !!!! i really what to make this a real contender!
current maybe pile Rankle, Master of Pranks, his lack of W and the deck not running lingering souls is my only real hesitation, the deck needs to break symmetry and i cant see a way to do this outside of a more smallpox build. Divinity of Pride (been running this guy in sb and hes often sided in because many decks just don't have any way to answer him effectively Kaya, Orzhov Usurper is a serious possibility with the amount of exile, if this is unanswered for 2 turns it should be game (exiling death shadows and vial is also nice) (another solid sb, offen against control and aggro) Seraph of the Scales i want to try is but that 3 thoughtfulness is making me hesitate Sorin, Grim Nemesis a possibility of the doom foretold slot
I see where your coming from a little more.
The ninjas do a couple of important jobs, first the the bounce allowing re use of sprite and borrower (and sometimes miscreant)
Your right that traditionaly they were one use but, with the the new ninja it's any ninja deals damdge which includes mutavault and changing outcast, and the ability stacks so you you have one outcast down a ninja from the previous turn that cannot attack and you swing and an ninja with a outcast and a ninja target that's 4 cards draws. They really don't take much to do alot of work. There's probably a build with ninja fairy's and rogues with Mothdust Changeling in there somewhere as you offen going to have cretures you don't want to swing with (like stink drinker and ninja)
But back off tangent
I would also serious consider including morsel theft as it's one of the only ways I can consistantly beat aggro and control if I don't draw a bottler blossom. The 6 life swing is huge and the cantrip tacked on makes it much better value again, even as a SB card it's in of the better options for rogues when it comes to lifegain.
I've also been reasonable impressed with rankle, as it provides a mb out against things like platinum emperion, worship, angel grace, ulamog and reality smashers. It's almost always relevent and changes the board on the turn it's played. Also your version of the deck has a fair bit of filtering and if your not running any of the big pay offs (mistbind, fallen, lilly, cryptic ect) it's a solid 1-2 of to add.
been revisiting the deck a little, and came across Punish Ignorance. to me it seems viable but i'm not sure how optimal. do you recon its worth trying as a 1-2 of?
i think the biggest addition to the deck was in modern horizons in the form of changeling outcast. he has been a bomb in both my main mono b list as some u/b list i've been trailing.
ive had alot of success with this mono b build
i suspect that changeling outcast- Fallen Shinobi - Ingenious Infiltrator may well be a solid package to add. outcast is duel types and infiltrator is a ninja of the deep hours at worse and a insanely powerful card draw engine at best. and fallen shinobi adds a nice wincone and hard to deal with threat that generates card advantage that cares about our rogues evasion.
im not yet solid on borrower in the deck, it feels like a better fit for fairies or control rather than rogues, which tends to be a little more aggressive, but i could well be wrong.
there are loads, it just depends on what is popular in the meta to the price of the cards. currently some solid decks with a max card price are
mono g stompy (pure old fashioned 3 cmc max aspect of hydra aggro deck. scooze is the only + 5 card and its only a 2 of)
mono r goblins (same but with embercleave being the +5 card)
feather prowess with budget land base
wizards burn
mono u spell slinger tempo (petramander, cryptic serpent ect)
rakdos dragon tribal
populate bant and G/W
heroic decks
golgari deathmist raptor reanimator
For something this much of a glass cannon you really need more defensive spells. You seemed to have mashed up an infect list with a stompy list built around Syr farren but missed the core cards to make this strategy work.
The main points.
You only have 3 protection spell, a will placed path or push kill the deck, if your running the deck this way you need 4 blossoming defences and the vines.
Without curving out aspect is pretty useless and ground swell is inconsistent at best without fetches. Might of old Korsa and scale up would serve better. Yorvo need cretures to make him big. You don't run that many cretures. He also has no evasion, try steel leaf champion as it at least has evasion. How do you plan or crewing heart of Keiran? You want to be attacking with your cretures, Syr, elf, birds cannot crew it and you really don't what to crew it with a groundbreaker and you only have 2 nissas.
These are the tip of the iceberg. Please read through the decks primer on pages 1 of this thread ( I also recommend reading through the infect thread)
basically yes, anything with flash. personally i would run a mix of gearhulk and angel as gearhulk is a good snap caster effect but 6 mana can be significantly more than 5. angel can do a lot of work vs things like burn, and having a big evasive flyer can do alot for your chances of winning. but in your specific build i would do something a little different
i would run
card choices
resto angel: it has 7 solid deck targets, (walls for card draw, gearhulk for value, gideons for resetting counters or using twice in a turn) it's also a solid flash flyer with an easy casting cost and sits nicely in the 4 drop slot.
Detention Sphere: with walls and restos card draw should be fine, these tend to act as excellent catch alls, much better than the jaces
Fact or Fiction: why play the jace that pretends to be this whey you can actually play this! also best gearhulk target.
Marit Lage's Slumber: budget search while also being a very solid wincon.
ice/path balance: with slumber caring about snow stuff uptick ice to make more effective and save on budget
passage and colonnade this is where the budget went, colonnades are cheap atm so 3 seems like a solid number, Strand (or passage if they easier o get) is a solid option due to the fixing of mana while finding a snow permanents, the ability shuffle your deck can also be relevant at times.
Secure the Wastes: good when your winning and good when your behind
Field of Ruin: 4 is a lot of colorless mana in a deck with some fairly mana intensive spells, so down to 3 and have some more land hate in sb if needed.
cards i would strongly consider
aven mindcensor: flash flyer, able to block ore beat down, while denying opponents land drops is pretty powerful in fetchless decks.
Spell Queller: if you ever decide to go for a more tempoy style of control auto 4 of.
a 4th colonnade: they are very good and probably never going to be much cheaper.
brazzen borrower: if you ever decide to go in much more draw go control style of play and drops the walls etc these would be a very solid inclusion
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Field of Ruin
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Ifnir Deadlands
3x Island
2x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Watery Grave
2x Kitesail Freebooter
4x Spell Queller
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Ulamog's Nullifier
4x Wasteland Strangler
1x Anguished Unmaking
4x Censor
1x Cling to Dust
4x Declaration in Stone
3x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
I think I'll play around and see if I can coble together a somewhat working shell, and refine it down on mtgo before a invest in paper.
always wanted to build a deck around Ulamog's Nullifier but never quite found the right shell in modern, im hoping pioneer is its place to shine
is this a viable core for a deck?
3x Kitesail Freebooter
4x Spell Queller
4x Declaration in Stone
4x Transgress the Mind
4x Ulamog's Nullifier
4x Wasteland Strangler
3x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
and then with a shed load of removal and interaction?
have i missed anything obvious?
which interaction is currently the most relevant or is it better to go in on favourable winds and go more aggressive?
thanks for any help you guys can give and i'll be interested to see what this becomes
um im a little confused... you seem to be having a rant about blue based control in edh.... this is a budget modern thread....about combo decks.... with no blue... and its a necro thread from 5 years ago....
i have since this post refined the build and top 4ed a fnm with in
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
3x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
3x Silent Clearing
2x Swamp
Enchantment (4)
1x Doom Foretold
3x Edge of the Divinity
1x Fatal Push
4x Kaya's Guile
1x Orzhov Charm
4x Path to Exile
Creature (16)
4x Basilica Bell-Haunt
4x Nightsky Mimic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wasteland Strangler
Sorcery (4)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker (3)
3x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2x Anguished Unmaking
1x Despark
2x Divinity of Pride
3x Fragmentize
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2x Kaya's Wrath
1x Murderous Rider
2x Orzhov Pontiff
Shadowspear!!!!!
how this is something worth equipping to an aggressively costed kor! legends not great, but does work really nicely with the rest of the deck, 1 cmc is huge and the keywords are ones the deck hast really has access to before. im off to brew/test/ ill pop back with a list (also the cards screams budget build so may try one of those as well)
ive been running it on mtgo for a while, its stomps most of tier 2-3 decks. against the main contenders
death shadows around 50/50, mb Kaya's Guile is extremely brutal against them.
tron bit of a struggle. the decks need a little more pw removal ive tried a few despark in sb, alongside damping sphere but it can still be a struggle, (its still winnable especially with 3 mb ghost quarters, but it's definitely a uphill battle that we loose slightly more than we win)
wirza /urza oko, we we disrupt strongly in the early game and if we can deal with oko within 2 turns we can definitely win this
titan, the deck owns titan decks
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
1x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
3x Silent Clearing
3x Swamp
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2x Basilica Bell-Haunt
4x Nightsky Mimic
3x Orzhov Pontiff
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Wasteland Strangler
Sorcery (4)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Fatal Push
4x Kaya's Guile
2x Orzhov Charm
3x Path to Exile
2x Unmake
Enchantment (5)
2x Doom Foretold
3x Edge of the Divinity
Nightsky Mimic, our flying goyf and build around, if it's not answered asap it will win games pretty quickly, especially with a little discard and a Edge of the Divinity
Kaya's Guile this card is often our best draw, at least 2 modes are always relevant and it turns on mimic and sets up Wasteland Strangler
Orzhov Pontiff kill a surprisingly high amount of stuff in the tier 2 category, and the pump can also be useful when trying to quickly close down a game against a recovering opponent
Doom Foretold i originally tried this as a joke but am generally impressed with how well it stays with the deck. getting rid of problematic perminants (with the amount of disruption the deck runs it often only has 1 or 2 targets that we can't deal with any other way). sacing our own stuff is rarly and issue as ,Orzhov Pontiff, [/c]Edge of the Divinity[/c] or just a small tempo cast like strangler and bellhaunt that have already traded a card are normally a ok price to pay for a second permanent or just the value. speaking of the value trigger, yeah that happens.
Flagstones of Trokair and Ghost Quarter our fetchlands/ fixing / land destruction package. its included as the whole packages costs less than a single marsh flats and tends to work pretty well
anyway i'm looking for ideas and new possible synergies to include !!!! i really what to make this a real contender!
current maybe pile
Rankle, Master of Pranks, his lack of W and the deck not running lingering souls is my only real hesitation, the deck needs to break symmetry and i cant see a way to do this outside of a more smallpox build.
Divinity of Pride (been running this guy in sb and hes often sided in because many decks just don't have any way to answer him effectively
Kaya, Orzhov Usurper is a serious possibility with the amount of exile, if this is unanswered for 2 turns it should be game (exiling death shadows and vial is also nice) (another solid sb, offen against control and aggro)
Seraph of the Scales i want to try is but that 3 thoughtfulness is making me hesitate
Sorin, Grim Nemesis a possibility of the doom foretold slot
The ninjas do a couple of important jobs, first the the bounce allowing re use of sprite and borrower (and sometimes miscreant)
Your right that traditionaly they were one use but, with the the new ninja it's any ninja deals damdge which includes mutavault and changing outcast, and the ability stacks so you you have one outcast down a ninja from the previous turn that cannot attack and you swing and an ninja with a outcast and a ninja target that's 4 cards draws. They really don't take much to do alot of work. There's probably a build with ninja fairy's and rogues with Mothdust Changeling in there somewhere as you offen going to have cretures you don't want to swing with (like stink drinker and ninja)
But back off tangent
I would also serious consider including morsel theft as it's one of the only ways I can consistantly beat aggro and control if I don't draw a bottler blossom. The 6 life swing is huge and the cantrip tacked on makes it much better value again, even as a SB card it's in of the better options for rogues when it comes to lifegain.
I've also been reasonable impressed with rankle, as it provides a mb out against things like platinum emperion, worship, angel grace, ulamog and reality smashers. It's almost always relevent and changes the board on the turn it's played. Also your version of the deck has a fair bit of filtering and if your not running any of the big pay offs (mistbind, fallen, lilly, cryptic ect) it's a solid 1-2 of to add.
ive had alot of success with this mono b build
1x Castle Locthwain
2x Field of Ruin
1x Marsh Flats
3x Mutavault
4x Polluted Delta
3x Silent Clearing
5x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (3)
3x Fatal Push
4x Changeling Outcast
3x Earwig Squad
4x Oona's Blackguard
1x Rankle, Master of Pranks
4x Stinkdrinker Bandit
4x Vampire Cutthroat
Sorcery (8)
4x Morsel Theft
4x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (8)
4x Bad Moon
4x Bitterblossom
3x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Collective Brutality
3x Damping Sphere
1x Earwig Squad
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plague Engineer
i suspect that changeling outcast- Fallen Shinobi - Ingenious Infiltrator may well be a solid package to add. outcast is duel types and infiltrator is a ninja of the deep hours at worse and a insanely powerful card draw engine at best. and fallen shinobi adds a nice wincone and hard to deal with threat that generates card advantage that cares about our rogues evasion.
im not yet solid on borrower in the deck, it feels like a better fit for fairies or control rather than rogues, which tends to be a little more aggressive, but i could well be wrong.
mono g stompy (pure old fashioned 3 cmc max aspect of hydra aggro deck. scooze is the only + 5 card and its only a 2 of)
mono r goblins (same but with embercleave being the +5 card)
feather prowess with budget land base
wizards burn
mono u spell slinger tempo (petramander, cryptic serpent ect)
rakdos dragon tribal
populate bant and G/W
heroic decks
golgari deathmist raptor reanimator
are a few places i would look
The main points.
You only have 3 protection spell, a will placed path or push kill the deck, if your running the deck this way you need 4 blossoming defences and the vines.
Without curving out aspect is pretty useless and ground swell is inconsistent at best without fetches. Might of old Korsa and scale up would serve better. Yorvo need cretures to make him big. You don't run that many cretures. He also has no evasion, try steel leaf champion as it at least has evasion. How do you plan or crewing heart of Keiran? You want to be attacking with your cretures, Syr, elf, birds cannot crew it and you really don't what to crew it with a groundbreaker and you only have 2 nissas.
These are the tip of the iceberg. Please read through the decks primer on pages 1 of this thread ( I also recommend reading through the infect thread)
i would run
2x Boreal Shelf
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Flooded Strand
3x Field of Ruin
3x Glacial Fortress
6x Snow-Covered Island
5x Snow-Covered Plains
Artifact (4)
4x Arcum's Astrolabe
2x Archmage's Charm
2x Fact or Fiction
3x Mana Leak
3x Opt
2x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
Creature (6)
2x Restoration Angel
1x Torrential Gearhulk
3x Wall of Omens
1x Detention Sphere
2x Marit Lage's Slumber
3x On Thin Ice
Planeswalker (5)
1x Gideon Jura
2x Gideon of the Trials
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
Sorcery (2)
2x Supreme Verdict
card choices
resto angel: it has 7 solid deck targets, (walls for card draw, gearhulk for value, gideons for resetting counters or using twice in a turn) it's also a solid flash flyer with an easy casting cost and sits nicely in the 4 drop slot.
Detention Sphere: with walls and restos card draw should be fine, these tend to act as excellent catch alls, much better than the jaces
Fact or Fiction: why play the jace that pretends to be this whey you can actually play this! also best gearhulk target.
Marit Lage's Slumber: budget search while also being a very solid wincon.
ice/path balance: with slumber caring about snow stuff uptick ice to make more effective and save on budget
passage and colonnade this is where the budget went, colonnades are cheap atm so 3 seems like a solid number, Strand (or passage if they easier o get) is a solid option due to the fixing of mana while finding a snow permanents, the ability shuffle your deck can also be relevant at times.
Secure the Wastes: good when your winning and good when your behind
Field of Ruin: 4 is a lot of colorless mana in a deck with some fairly mana intensive spells, so down to 3 and have some more land hate in sb if needed.
cards i would strongly consider
aven mindcensor: flash flyer, able to block ore beat down, while denying opponents land drops is pretty powerful in fetchless decks.
Spell Queller: if you ever decide to go for a more tempoy style of control auto 4 of.
a 4th colonnade: they are very good and probably never going to be much cheaper.
brazzen borrower: if you ever decide to go in much more draw go control style of play and drops the walls etc these would be a very solid inclusion