I feel that way about all the Praetors. I proxied Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into a deck once and didn't like the "vibe", so took it out.
No worries on the pricier cards as I did actually fail to mention some budget restrictions in the initial deck posting, but I still like to hear them as possible future "upgrades"!
I was able to take a look at your list. I didn't know Nissa, Worldwaker seems so good! Both of her +1 abilities synergize, either getting Rhonas online if the board was just wiped / you have no other creatures, or ramping. Pretty good value to untap four forests if they're producing double or more mana! I should really consider her.
I also like Vedalken Orrery here too. That I do have a copy of and I want to take a look at my list to see what I might cut for it, essentially acting like a better Yeva, Nature's Herald, and doubling up on instant-speed enablers is always nice. Yeva already takes my deck to the next level if I can play her.
Overall, the power level of your deck looks a bit beefier than mine, but there's nothing wrong with that. I personally like variety in my playgroup so chose not to put all the green bombs in like Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, Vigor, etc., but there's a reason they're played so much - they're good!
I would also suggest that if Majestic Myriarch is going to stay in the deck, consider replacing Boreal Druid (or any other 1-drop mana dork) with Birds of Paradise. Might as well give the chimera flying during each combat step, too.
That’s a great idea! I didn’t consider Birds of Paradise initially because I thought it was more expensive than what I’m seeing now - almost cheaper than an Eternal Witness these days! I have some store credit to use, so I’ll definitely make that switch.
Quote from MJY71 »
I ended up using Extraplanar Lens instead of Vernal Bloom for one less mana. If you imprint a Snow-Covered Forest with Extraplanar Lens, no one else gets the benefit of double mana when they tap a regular Forest.
Unfortunately, Extraplanar Lense is a bit pricier, and I don’t want to spend about $30 to fit the deck with snow-covered lands. Definitely a good addition, but just not for my decklist.
Quote from weltkrieg »
A creature that is cheap to buy, but has huge impact in this style of deck (especially the one it used to be with the fight enablers) would seem to be archetype of endurance.
My playgroup has angst against a player in the group that, from time to time (not every time, but often enough) brings out Archetype of Endurance and Avacyn, Angel of Hope together (Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, etc.). I want to shy away from the Archetype of Endurance because of that for a while. Great suggestion though - budget Asceticism effect and synergizes with creature effects.
Quote from weltkrieg »
You have a lot of big guys. Has any thought been given to paleoloth or spearbreaker behemoth? I concede they might be a bit high in the mana cost, though.
I actually don’t have a whole lot of innate 5+ power creatures since 4 is the sweet spot for Rhonas, so without pumps, these only affect just under 1/3 of the creatures, which is under 1/9 of the total deck. Good cards if I had more 5+ power without pumps, but just not enough value otherwise, for me.
Quote from MJY71 »
Another low-cost creature to seriously consider that I have had success with is Predator Ooze.
Predator Ooze is . . . interesting. I understand the value you’ve pointed out, even with a T1 Sol Ring, you’d have to drop he Ooze on T4 because of the GGG requirement. That’s 11 trample power on T4 unless you can also give the Ooze haste by T4 after you’ve played a Solg Ring, Rhonas, and then Nylea. God hand for sure though with a three Forests opener. I don’t like that, by itself, it doesn’t enable Rhonas, but I do like that it’s indestructible, which makes it more likely to stick around for three turns to accumulate the necessary +1 counters since there’s no other counter providers or synergies in the deck. Seems okay, but only in God-mode.
Okay, a couple things going on here. Firstly, I figured the lack of non-creature removal would catch up with me: I lost all the games in the most recent outing because I couldn't deal with non-creature permanents. Secondly, I'm really looking to put this all into actual paper without proxies soon and so budget is a concern. This update takes care of two birds with one stone.
Asceticism is powerful, but also pricey $-wise. I actually only got to play it a single time in all the games so far and I was already in a fairly commanding position and board presence so it was more of a win-more that I didn't even need at that point. I don't think I'll miss it, especially considering I'm adding Acidic Slime to help deal with pesky permanents that throw me off. I chose the Slime over Reclamation Sage because I don't think the difference in mana cost is an issue for this deck, it can hit a land if needed (Maze of IthGlacial Chasm, etc.), and an additional deathtoucher to give trample and buff seems good. I also chose it over re-using World Breaker because it seemed unlikely I would recur him with his own ability and getting him back with one of the Regrowth effect cards would make me want to get the Slime back instead in those instances.
Thrun, the Last Troll seems like the perfect creature for this deck - on curve with Rhonas, 4-power, and super resilient with hexproof and regeneration - but I really wanted to fit some more removal in and this was the next expensive proxy (ironically, he shares that card and lore connection with Asceticism, so it seems fitting they're cut together). I do own a copy of Woodfall Primus, so I added him back to the list from before I posted the decklist. The mana really shouldn't be an issue now that a lot of my ramp effects seem to kick off efficiently, he can come back with persist, enables the Rhonas power threshold, and has innate trample. Stellar all around.
1. To me, it's how the player identifies their goals. Is the goal to have fun, or to win at all costs? I know there's a spectrum, but this is the determining factor.
Quote from Honor Basquiat »
winning by any means necessary
This, absolutely.
1. In the context of the commander format, how would you define what a “casual player” is?
To me, a casual player places more emphasis on actually playing the game and allowing others to do the same. A casual player knows that winning isn't the only goal sometimes and that actually having fun and watching others have fun can be just as or more rewarding than the W, and so actively builds decks and plays this way. The competitive player actively uses certain cards and strategies to win at all costs without much attention to how much (read: lack thereof) fun would actually result for the table. This leads to strategies below.
2. Is what determines if a player is a casual player based on any of the following traits: budget for deck, skill level of the player, type of strategies and cards played, amount of passion for the game.
Certainly all of the above. Sticking to a budget is a way for casual players to be creative and stick to the non-competitive nature of their play style. The easiest, but not only, way to tell a more competitive player (the player trying to win at any cost, form, or function) from a casual player is the cards he or she is using and the strategy with them, particularly if those cards and strategies prevent other players from playing the game or are meant to tilt games in an overtly unfair way. Strategies like resource denial, stax, mass land destruction, plethora of extra turns (I don't play to watch someone play solitaire for half an hour), infect, etc. As mentioned, none of this is actually fun to play against because it's preventing others from playing the game in part or in whole. Every time someone plays to these strategies, I never feel good about how the game went in the end.
I don't think tutors are inherently competitive, but can be in the way they're used and if they're abused/packed by the handful in decks. I understand some players like decks to be consistent and I don't mind if I'm playing against someone who might have a tutor or two in his or her deck. Personally, I never play with them (not including land tutors a la Evolving Wilds, Cultivate, etc.). I too like the variety of play my decks provide without them, it's just so much more fun to discover a new way my deck can gain the upper hand or even pull off a win. I initially tried using tutors and every time I used one, it just felt like I was cheating the spirit of the game. I muuuuuch prefer more card draw as it gives me way more options of things to play with instead of the one specific card that I hand-plucked.
3. Can a casual player be a spike?
I always thought a spike was the definition of the most competitive type of players, so no? I imagine a competitive player can have both casual and competitive decks and get very spiky with the more competitive deck, but then, to me, that's ultimately a competitive player who sometimes like to kick back and relax once in a while.
I always associated EDH with a more casual, fun, easy-going atmosphere, which is why I was drawn tot he format.
4. Do you self-identify as a casual player? Explain your answer.
I identify as a casual player. I don't actively engage in strategies and use cards that prevent others at the table from playing the game. Yes, you may untap all your lands that I won't suddenly destroy half-way in, no you won't suddenly die to an unblockable creature with infect, no I won't assemble an infinite combo before T6, no I won't stack 5-8 extra turns for you to just sit there, and no I won't Mindslaver you three times in a row (true story a Muzzio, Visionary Architect player did to me). I also often restrict myself to a budget because the deck building is way more fun and I can find hidden gems or not-so-often played cards that make things unique.
I like to have fun and I like to have fun with other people having fun. I've seen and been on the other end of competitive players, and I don't want to portray myself like that onto other people.
Gabrielle Angelfire, I can understand where you're coming from as I was somewhat in your shoes: I gave up my collection many moons ago, but then started getting into EDH/Commander about 18 months ago, starting with a pre-constructed deck from the 2015 set and then another pre-con a couple months in from the 2016 set. Man, those first few months were rough, considering it was like re-learning how to play Magic all over again because of a new format with generally different ways to play (bigger spells with longer games, singleton format, etc.) and different strategies. I think I went a while with any real wins too (maybe not 3 months though). One of the main things I've learned over the last 1.5yrs is that it's not worth the ire of my playgroup to play commanders with stigma's attached to them - the ones like Kaalia of the Vast, Narset, Enlightened Master, etc. Ultimately, I want to play cards, have a good time with my pals, and be involved in the game; not be the first one bopped out first all the time.
With that said, if it were me with the Kaalia deck being heavily targeted, despite what I perceive as other seemingly real threats, I would keep the Angel Tribal theme because that's what makes me happy to play, but seriously consider choosing a different commander to lead my Angel Army. If you press on the Kaalia deck and tune it to some maximum potential in an attempt to fight back your opponents (who I imagine are your friends outside the game), it's only going to solidify and reinforce their notions to take you out ASAP and then all kinds of other problems can start to arise with them building decks specifically to take out your Kaalia deck or, worst case, voice that they don't want you to play Kaalia anymore (I personally don't think anyone is of the position to be able to tell someone else what to play and what not to play, but some groups collectively hate on a commander or deck and believe that for their group health and sanity try to suppress those decks). You know the group better than any of us here, so it's your call if you think that's how the group would likely react or if in another way entirely.
I understand you're on a limited budget, and you do enjoy the angels, which is why I think you can and should keep the majority of your deck intact, but maybe switch to a commander that doesn't give off such a negative vibe. The aforementioned Tariel, Reckoner of Souls is a good suggestion, or I think even better if you come to grips with dropping B is Aurelia, the Warleader. Aurelia should be able to cast earlier at 1CMC less and an easier color requirement (2 colors vs 3) than Tariel, has haste (so can attack as soon as she's out, which enables her ability of another combat), and I feel definitely fits the theme of Angels smashing face ("Warleader" Angel herself and extra combats). This should mean you can cast her more than once in a game if needed as well, but that your whole game-plan doesn't require her to be out to be effective. There's a bunch of resources out now that can assist players in developing draw and ramp for Boros colors (just Google "Boros EDH" or "Boros ramp/draw EDH" and you'll find some good stuff with some gems here and there). The Command Zone podcast (they're on YouTube too), a Commander-focused player resource, has a whole episode titled "Breaking Boros" if you're interested, which showcases ways that Boros players can address Boros's natural weaknesses of lack of reliable draw and ramp sources. I don't think it should actually be too difficult with enough mana rocks and other "deck thinning" tricks like getting a bunch of lands out with W stuff Land Tax, Tithe, Gift of EstatesWeathered Wayfarer, Knight of the White Orchid, Oreskos Explorer, etc., all ensure your land drops.
So, I say switch Kaalia up with Aurelia, the Warleader, get the gang off your back, stick in the games longer both by that alone and by just playing a lot better (there's always so much more to learn) and tune the deck here and there, and watch your Angel Army rise! You can switch up playing Aurelia and Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith, who I am also a fan of.
There's definitely pros and cons to both Rhonas and Nylea. Nylea can pump herself and pumps toughness too, but the pump costs more than Rhonas's pump. Rhonas gives deathtouch access in the command zone though. I ultimately decided on Rhonas because I felt it was easier to keep him "online", especially after a board wipe - easier to get a single creature to 4+ power than to get 5 green devotion in those cases. Plus he's not an enchantment and thus isn't susceptible to enchantment exile.
I hadn't considered Creeping Renaissance yet. I can see some applications to get back key pieces of enchantments back from my yard or a ton of creatures if the game goes longer or to recover from wipes (or I'm being milled, and the flashback helps if this card itself is milled). I'm trying to think back on my games though and can't recall when there was a stack of creatures in my yard that I would want back to my hand - I'd usually have a few other worthwhile creatures in my hand to cast instead - and I've included Eternal Witness and Greenwarden of Murasa as bodies to get me back specific cards if needed and the Seasons Past too. I don't have GY filling effects built-in to the deck, so I don't see me being able to abuse it for CA. Is there some other application I'm not thinking of? Can it be better than the GY recovery pieces I'v already included outside of getting all my creatures back to hand after a bigger board wipe?
Quote from Ertai Planeswalker[/quote »
I understand what you mean, but I think you can do both. Hour of Promise finding Arena + Arcane Lighthouse lets you handle hexproof, and Lure effects can help when you don't have it. You could also play Glaring Spotlight as a meta call.
I had both Arena and Arcane Lighthouse in the very first "cut down to 99" version/draft of the deck. Arena didn't seem that great to me once I realized that the opponent gets to choose which creature of his or hers will fight mine (likely Rhonas). There was just too much foreseeable variance with the card: most of the time I imagined it taking out an opponent's most dispensable creature, possibly a token. Only taking out important creatures or commanders IF the opponent didn't have any other creatures and IF that single creature didn't have protection. Seemed very unlikely scenario. Once I started cutting the other fight cards, Arcane Lighthouse seemed to have less and less direct application.
Adding Hour of Promise or similar tutor would make it easier to get the Area and Lighthouse (or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Tectonic Edge or any other land that would bring me great utility at that moment), but with no other fight cards or synergy, I'd be paying 3-4 mana and tapping 1-2 additional lands to fight a single creature of my opponents choice once per turn? I don't think it's worth it. If I started putting a few more fight cards back in to take more advantage of the Lighthouse, then I feel I'd certainly have to cut somewhere else, likely in the mana doubling or creature categories - and I feel this deck needs creatures and mana more than targeted fighting. The fight mechanics can certainly have their uses, and a Pounce has certainly saved me from lethal commander damage on a commander I could actually target, but when I started with 8+ fight cards and making it a sub-theme initially, that's all it had done for me in the early handful of games. I'd like to have both lure and fight things going on, very on-theme with Rhonas himself as a card and with the lore, but practically speaking, I feel I'd have to cut somewhere else that I'm not willing to yet.
Still, adding Arcane Lighthouse and Glaring Spotlight would help with other spot removal like Beast Within and Song of the Dryads. I can consider them for that, but I really with Glaring Spotlight allowed opponents to target each other's stuff too, not just allowing me to target since there can be things on the board that I don't have removal to, but other opponents do.
Other than not having Blue colors, my only other hesitation with Mathas would be that one of the other members has an Edgar Markov deck that he uses every game and I feel like he has cards that can take control of other vampires on the field... Because I believe he has another card that changes every creature on the field to a vampire in addition to it’s other types and he has stolen all of our creatures that way before and swung for game.
Grandpa Ed is popular. The Edgar Markov player may have things to take control of creatures of any creature type, but I don't think of vampires specifically (at least I can't think of a card that takes control of target vampire, except making it a vampire after control such as New Blood). Something like Captivating Vampire, which I'm sure is a staple in Edgar decks.
Would it help in those situations to include some creature protection? Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are easy suggestions, but Homeward Path should be an easy include (and ways to tutor it up possibly). Mother of Runes and Obsidian Acolyte can help protect against targeted theft effects from black sources - and allow you to block all those black vampires with impunity. There could be a bunch of good stuff I'm not thinking about at the moment. With all of his vampires (and even better if there are a few other tribal decks floating around your meta), a Tsabo's Decree might be in order.
A blue commander option would allow spot and mass bounce removal to take back all creatures player's own to their hans to kind of reset and theft control effects. Devastation Tide, Wash Out, Evacuation, Whelming Wave, the new River's Rebuke for a targeted Cyclonic Rift, and I'm sure an Overburden would put a number on an Edgar Markov or any other creature heavy deck.
Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer and Mathas, Fiend Seeker do seem like a fun pair. Mathas can bring some added "counters matter" cards to supplement Gwafa with like Hunter of Eyeblights (also good against an Edgar Markov deck that puts +1 counters on things on all the vamps) and Kulrath Knight does a good Gwafa impression if he isn't on the field.
EDIT: Holding up an Aetherize or Aetherspouts if you feel a mass steal and swing coming on would help too.
Gideon tribal with Djeru, With Eyes Open? You’d get Ajani and Elspeth too. Might actually be pretty good in a tokens/go wide build. Throw in a few flicker or blink effects to keep tutoring walkers. Sounds fun to me, and refreshing from an Atraxa build.
The suggestion for blue above is really good. Blue can have a myriad of ways to interact with the field and other permanents - and even some unique ways to win that stay on the theme that you're looking for (i.e. Reins of Power).
Might I suggest, however, a non-blue alternative in Mathas, Fiend Seeker? I just finished building a decklist for him (not online yet, but soon) and it was a ton of fun. Most other lists online for him are Curse-tribal, and while that's somewhat unique to him, it wasn't my cup of tea, so I just included a lot of "political" type cards, and removal (destroy) to trigger the bounty counters Mathas throws around. You say you're group is playing a lot of creatures and a lot of board wipes? Great, you should have a lot of bounty counter targets for Mathas and when they all blow up, a bunch of life and cards are dished out, including to you. I included stuff like Coercive Portal, No Mercy, Adarkar Valkyrie, Humble Defector, Starke of Rath, and Ogre Slumlord. Basically the deck counts on a lot of death triggers and takes advantage of that. Win conditions include the classic Insurrection (not as cheap a win in a political deck like this), Overwhelming Splendor (Goblin Sharpshooter included), Revel in Riches (pick your package of board wipes to help get you there, Mardu has all of 'em, plus access to Teferi's Protection to ensure you get to your upkeep after you get enough treasure), a slew of "don't mess with me" instant-speed stuff like Backlash, Delirium, Deflecting Palm, Boros Fury-Shield, Comeuppance, and Master Warcraft. You can be political with those too. Tell your opponent you don't want them attacking and you won't have to do something bad to them. They might call your bluff initially, but after a couple times, they may likely think about it more. I included Sunforger to tutor all those up (as well as tutor my other instant speed removal like Go for the Throat, Terminate, etc.), but it's not necessary to make the deck work, although it does make Mathas a 7/3 with menace. I threw in some really good value stuff like Sepulchral Primordial (since things will be going to yards) and Sangromancer for more death happenings value. Blade of the Bloodchief since Mathas is a vampire. Seal of Doom and Seal of Cleansing as rattlesnakes and Sun Titan to recur and reuse those (as well as other permenents).
What's scarier than a big 'ol trampler? A big 'ol trampler with deathtouch. True story. Bow of Nylea was a good suggestion just for that alone, but I also realize it can provide minor benefits each round of turns if I have enough mana floating around. +1 counters and life can add up over a handful of turns. I decided to cut the Kusari-Gama for the bow. While cute if it works and another way for opponents to be scared when I say I'm going to combat, it also feels like too much efforts to analyze how I might attack someone myself if I want it to actually work: "Okay, if I attack him, he can block with one creature, but then the Kusari, so he might as well block with all, but do I want to assign all damage to the first blocker and hit everyone else, or how ama I working with deathtouch . . . Yeah, straight trample is simpler on my and my playgroup's brains.
Majestic Myriarch is definitely going in. Worst case he's an additional indestructible deathtoucher that enables Rhonas to attack or block just on his own. Rhonas can give him a pump and trample easy peasy. I took out Thornling because the deck is already creeping up there mana-curve-wise and he's the least impactful 5+ CMC creature that doesn't have trample innately.
I had a feeling for a while that I wanted to cut Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. I don't really have a way to untap her to really take advantage (read: bust) of her to produce infinite mana and Genesis Wave or Walking Ballista or whatever. The best I saw with her was using a bunch of mana to pump the team and then tap her to add a ton more in a one-shot kind of deal to sink into a pump ability before combat damage, but now that I'm leaning more on the non-creature mana producers, I'll let her go. That and I didn't realize originally that she's a bit pricier. I had her proxied in while I test the deck, but if I decided to keep this deck in the collection I know I'd have to pick her up somehow. Along the lines of the big mana doublers/producers theme, I decided to add Bear Umbra. Another really powerful card, but surprisingly more affordable than Selvala or a Sword of Feast and Famine. Unlike the sword though, the Umbra untaps all lands as an aattack trigger and not a damage trigger, which, IMO, ensures I can get that effect more often. Fog or Constant Mists? Sure. I still untap. Plus, as an attack trigger, it opens up all my mana to sink into the pump abilities before actual damage. I'm diggin' it.
I decided to try out the Dictate of Karametra over the Mana Reflection - for now. I'mm try out the Dictate in my playgroup a couple weeks and see if I can make it work how I envision it and how often it enables my opponents more. If it's a real issue, then I'll more seriously consider Reflection or another card. I cut Pounce as the last main remnants of the fight cards. The deck is really starting to go in another direction, although it is a powerful mechanic to bring into green with a deathtouch commander, but I don't feel I'll miss it.
You need to be carefull with symmetric mana doublers: you "only" plan to pump some creatures with it, for many opponents, the benefits will be far greater then they are for you.
I know what you mean; I’ve been on the more beneficial end of an opponents mana doubler before. Vernal Bloom is relatively safe in my playgroup since we try to avoid playing the same color or same style/strategy decks all in the same game, so it’s less likely that another primary (at least certainly not mono) green deck will be in the same game when I’m playing Rhonas. Still, I know it’s something to watch. I like Dictate of Karametra because I can flash it in right before I try to finish the game out and it’s less likely that my opponents will get to benefit from it. I’ve felt that this effect is just particularly good and synergistic that Heartbeat of Spring is also tempting. You made really good suggestions with Traverse the Outlands and Boundless Realms though! Definitely a way to boost my mana production, keep the boon one-sided, and thin my deck. I’m thinking of what I can cut for those now.
I definitely noticed Rhonas can fight, but in nearly all the games I played with fight cards, it just wasn’t working out for me. There’s a few reasons why, but one of he main ones was that anything really worth using the removal on was usually protected, either as built-in hexproof or supplemented with equipment. I could take out a utility guy not protected here or there, but mostly was unimpactful. If I wanted to take out someone’s protected dude or commander, then the lure effects like Lure, Tempting Licid, and Revenge of the Hunted have been more effective for me.
Rhonas’s Monument and Majestic Myriarch are interesting. The monument I’m not too sold on, even with the flavor(which I usually totally go for). It cheapens my creatures by 1, but I feel like it’s competing with a lot of other things I’d rather play both as a ramp/cheapen effect and at that CMC. The pump is on theme, but it only makes a difference if I plan to attack that turn (admittedly, is often, but not at every combat step opportunity).
The Myriarch seems really good: a second indescribable deathtouch trampler on everyone’s combat until end of turn is awesome. I can cut a lesser impactful creature like Vorapede. He also enables Rhonas with just Rhonas and himself. How did I miss him?!
Just one recommendation: Bow of Nylea. With Rhonas handing out trample left and right, this is an auto-include imo.
That does sound good! I can't decide what to cut though. I'm thinking Kusari-Gama, but that card seems pretty good against go-wide or token based decks that pop up every so-often.
In addition, I'm considering some more mana doublers to make that effect more consistent. Mana Reflection is likely out of my price range, but Dictate of Karametra can be flashed in on the end step before my turn just before I'd need to dump mana into some trample pump abilities, and Heartbeat of Spring is a cheap CMC way to get the effect if I think I can still outpace the boon it gives to opponents as well. Anyone have experience with these?
EDIT: I've actually been proxy-ing the Selvala, Hear of the Wilds because she's a higher priced card too. I can likely cut her for Dictate of Karametra.
The Thornbite Staff turns out to be not that great when you don't have a lot of mana to keep using it in succession (more on the mana issue later). There almost always seemed to be a card in the yard I would love to re-use though (draw spells, trample enabler, etc), so I've added Eternal Witness as it has the added 2-power creature value that Rhonas can pump to enable himself if needed, or act as another super-pumped beater from other pump & trample effects.
The targeted trample enablers just weren't cutting it. They would leave me with a really good Rhonas, but lackluster 4 or less powered rest of the team, which wasn't very effective in multiplayer so far. So, I cut Cartouche of Strength and Wildheart Invoker for the repeatable use and creature synergistic Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Pathbreaker Ibex. Both of them are definitely win conditions more-so than the cuts.
Emporer Crocodile, Bristling Hydra, and Prowling Serpopard are all great 4-or-less-drops of 4-power, efficiently enabling Rhonas, but beyond that weren't doing much. The Seporpard renders my creatures un-counterable, but there's not a whole lot of blue and counterspells running around my meta (it's usually me playing mono U doing that), so not as effective for me. I've cut them for Rampaging Baloths, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Wolfbriar Elemental - all of which are superb! Rampaging Baloths can ensure a steady stream of creatures to block after my bigger beaters have attacked, or create an army to pump and attack with, plus it has trample itself. Silvos is another resilient creature, also with trample, that can hang around for a while to ensure Rhonas is enabled - I also think he'd make a great lieutenant for the deck! Wolfbriar is great to have late game (especially after a board wipe), and is made better with the mana doublers I've included (below). It's already happened: "I'll cast Wolfbriar Elemental, with kicker up to 11+." Then proceed to pump them with Kamahl or give them intimidate with Bellowing Tanglewurm. Just awesome.
The fight mechanic cards altogether weren't cutting it for me. One time in the handful of games so far I used one to save myself from lethal commander damage - while nice, I feel they wouldn't be missed. I was always torn with debating using one to take out a utility creature that isn't directly threatening me right now but could be worse later, or save it in the need-to-use-it-now-to-save-my-life situation, if I have the mana open. Since the general theme started to move away from targeting Rhonas with effects, I chose to cut them in the favor of much needed ramp effects in Karametra's Acolyte, Vernal Bloom, and Caged Sun. Wow, the difference these cards make when you want to do "things" and dump mana into Rhonas's, Nylea's or Kamahl's pump abilities. These made huge differences (coupled with Regal Behemoth) in synergy with the draw spells too: I could dump some mana to pump a creature, then use a power-conditional draw spell such as Momentous Fall, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Soul's Majesty, etc. to draw a ton of cards. Definitely worth the change when Forests tap for 2X (or 3X!) the mana.
Speaking of draw, I decided to remove Seal of Primordium and World Breaker for Momentous Fall and Shamanic Revelation. Both have been valuable already (Fall actually saving my Rhonas from being "stolen"/taken control of once). Cutting removal from the deck makes me weary, but if the deck is drawing cards and ramping enough to get things out there and pumped, then it's doing it's "thing" and gets me closer to removing the player.
With drawing a lot of cards, I've actually found myself discarding down to size wayyyyyy more often than I'd like. Greenwarden of Murasa, Seasons Past, and now Eternal Witness help bring back the really important stuff, but drawing into a Reliquary Tower every once in a while gives me more options. Taking out the targeting fight mechanic cards, I decided to cut Arcane Lighthouse.
I’m used to brewing a lot of U related decks, but recently decided to build and put to paper a couple non-blue decks for variety and to step a bit outside of my box, while still having fun doing so. I brewed a lot of lists, but the first commander to paper ended up being Rhonas the Indomitable!
I like Rhonas the Indomitable firstly because he is indestructible so he can be pretty resilient. Secondly, deathtouch seems like a good way to force opponents into difficult combat situations, and other damage enablers (i.e. the fight mechanic or pinging) essentially act as destroy effects. Lastly, his activated ability pumps and adds trample to another creature, thus aiding in his own threshold requirement and adding some more combat nuances for opponents to think about. Subtly, Rhonas can give this pump + evasion (as many times as he’d like without having to tap, provided enough mana) to any creature, not just your own, which can have political implications if you’re willing to use it that way – this is something I wish Thassa, God of the Sea could do at times to help other players deal with problem situations, which could also garner me benefits in the form of political favor or closer to victory.
I perused lists and brainstormed ideas, gathering great inspiration from Honor Basquiat’s “Indomitable Four Drops” list (using one-drop ramps to get Rhonas out as early as T2, followed up by an efficient four-drop 4+ power creature to get Rhonas “online” and swinging right away). My very first paper version took this strategy with a couple tweaks, but in multiplayer play seemed too much like a red aggro deck, swinging 5 commander damage on someone by T3. I would deal a lot of damage to one player (maybe taking someone out early), or would spread a lot of damage around the table, effectively crippling life totals to about half-life around the table, but then I would either run out of gas or opponents would obviously combine forces and energies to come back at me, archenemy style, which becomes difficult to fend off 2-3 payers at once even with a handful of beefy beaters and Rhonas. So, I decided to make the deck a bit slower and a bit more methodical in it’s approach instead of letting Rhonas loose ASAP and hope that no one can keep up.
After a couple small revisions in this new direction, I feel at an impasse, with cuts becoming excruciating, but still I feel the deck may not be wholly focused with efficient synergies. I’m posting the list here with a breakdown of my intended strategy hoping to get some feedback from all you wonderful folks! Here is the current list:
A quick note: I personally try to build and play decks without tutors, and 99% of the games I play are 3-4 multiplayer.
4/30: I'm relaxing my tutors requirement for now with Green Sun's Zenith in the deck and thinking about Primal Command.
Get creatures out. Get trampler and pump enablers out. Get mana doublers and similar to gets lots of mana to drop into the trampler and pump enablers. Attack.
My current vision is semi-Voltron with a pump and trample sub-theme, most exciting me to use as a way for opponents to make that hard decision to keep their armies but take more commander damage, or throw bodies in front of Rhonas but have nearly nothing left to block with the next round. An indestructible trampler with deathtouch is scary to start taking 21 damage from and is deadly effective when blocked, effectively becoming a “destroy” board wipe if trying to prevent that damage. For the time I want to wipe the opponent’s creatures, I’ve included lure effects like the namesake Lure and Tempting Licid. Nothing survives that crosses Rhonas's path: shroud or hexproof? Rhonas doesn't care. Deathtouch, first strike, double strike? Rhonas still doesn't care. Unless the creature has indestructible, it almost certainly isn't surviving a forced block against the K.O. King.
Then, four- and five-drop creatures to get Rhonas online at least to get an indestructible deathtouching blocker out to deter early aggro unless I want to actually use him. I focused on resilient creatures (built-in protection preferred) to prevent having to redeploy too much from a board wipe or unfavorable combat result, such as: Baru, Fist of Krosa, Nylea, God of the Hunt, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Temur Sabertooth.
Then, I want to set up trample enablers (Rhonas can target pump and enable trample), particularly for Rhonas to force opponents to take more commander damage or to essentially sacrifice creatures to him. I like the enchantment and equipment variants on Rhonas because it’s less likely that he will be 2-for-1’ed by removal. The trample package I’m going with for now includes: Rancor, Vow of Wildness, Berserk (which can also target an opponent’s creature if necessary to deal with other opponents), Overwhelming Stampede, Revenge of the Hunted, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, the aforementioned Nylea, God of the Hunt, Pathbreaker Ibex, Thunderfoot Baloth, Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma pumps the team and grants trample on attack (and Rhonas can pump it to ensure it lives the danger zone for the trigger) and a recently added equipment package that includes Haunted Cloak.
The final stage involves using the power of mana doublers to exponentially increase my mana output to dump into the trample pump abilities within Rhonas, Nylea, Kamahl, etc. For now, I'm running Caged Sun, Vernal Bloom, Dictate of Karametra (symmetrical, but with flash I can hope to use it on my turn to finish the game before others can take advantage), and Regal Behemoth. Karametra's Acolyte and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx help in generating huge chunks of mana as well since 80%+ of the deck are permanents with many green pips to go around.
There are usually some sort of utility or big value creatures that opponents will never attack or block with making it difficult to remove them normally in a deck like this, so I have included a few ways to force blocks such as Lure, Tempting Licid, Tower Above, and Revenge of the Hunted can force them to block Rhonas for a timely death as well.
WIN CONDITIONS
With combat orientated keyword sub-themes and a Voltron-ish use of Rhonas, the main win condition will involve combat, likely through commander damage.
1. Getting Rhonas through with the various trample enablers, or paving the way to an open board with him via Lure, Tempting Licid, or Revenge of the Hunted. Berserk gets 21 commander damage through with little pump effort.
3. Get Bellowing Tanglewurm to stick and hope the opponent doesn’t have removal or green creatures. Really, I’m not seeing much more win conditions that this since the deck is more linear than other decks I have.
4. Helm of the Host creating an army of indestructible Rhonas's (even if answered right away, a couple of beeft indestructible deathtouchers that can trample pump themselves is still pretty menacing).
4. Assemble the pieces for a soft infinite combo. Special thanks to Ertai Planeswalker for bringing it up and explaining it!
Quote from Ertai Planeswalker »
1: Baru, Fist of Krosa, Mirage Mirror, Paleoloth and at least 5 lands in play
2: Mirage Mirror copies Baru, Fist of Krosa, sacrifice Baru, Fist of Krosa due to legend rule.
3: Play any creature with power 5 or more to get Paleoloth to trigger. Return Baru, Fist of Krosa back into your hand.
4: Discard Baru, Fist of Krosa to Mirage Mirror's grandeur ability to get a 5+/5+ Wurm token.
5: Paleoloth triggers on the Wurm token entering the battlefield, return Baru, Fist of Krosa from your graveyard to your hand.
6: Go back to step 4.
Savage Punch, Prey Upon, Nature’s Way, Ambuscade and other “fight” cards. As mentioned earlier, I originally included many more of these, but ended up finding them as the least impactful, especially the sorcery-speed ones and started cutting them for other stuff. 2/27/18: I've basically cut these altogether, changing up the theme.
LOTS of other Rhonas-enabling 4-drops, notably Polukranos, World Eater, Chameleon Colossus, and Vengevine. I had them in at one time, but cut them for various reasons. For example, I cut Polukranos because this deck doesn’t necessarily produce a boat-ton of mana like most other green decks so leaves his Monstrosity ability lackluster. Same with the Colossus: cool to double, then quadruple him up if he has trample, but very lacking compared to other decks that can actually abuse this more by making him 32+ power regularly.
Speaking of tample: Pathbreaker Ibex could be good here (more so IMO than Craterhoof Behemoth since I don’t make a while ton of creatures at once), but it has no built-in protection and is more easily removed as a creature effect. I’ve seen it used well and essentially a +5/+5 and trampler enabler each turn with Rhonas out is tempting, but I’m not fully on board with it.I've added this now, and it's sooooo good.
I ended up cutting Woodfall Primus. I liked that he has trample, enables Rhonas, and is somewhat resilient with persist, but it was always kind of awkward for me either holding on to him in hand waiting for a juicy target to remove or having him stuck in hand because of the mana cost.I've added him back.
Siege Behemoth was a way to ensure damage gets through, but with all the trample felt like he was win-more.
Arena seemed good until I realized the opponent gets to choose which creature they want to have fight Rhonas.
I’m sure I’ve considered other cards as well, but hadn’t recorded them with the other versions.
CURRENT CONSIDERATIONS
4/30/18:
I feel like this deck is in a good spot now. I've changed the theme/strategy from the "fight" mechanic and select single pumps to Rhonas to more draw, ramp, and more team pump with trample, best aided by mana doubling. It feels much more green goodstuffs, but it's way more effective, and I'm okay with that (for now).
I'd really like to improve on this though, so I'm all ears for way to synergize the elements of draw, ramp, big creatures, and trample - short of Craterhoof Benemoth.
What do you all think of the Rhonas + Trample & Pump + big mana production? Too much going on in one area? Not enough going on? Are there other ways to make this effective? Thanks for the advice!
I feel that way about all the Praetors. I proxied Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into a deck once and didn't like the "vibe", so took it out.
No worries on the pricier cards as I did actually fail to mention some budget restrictions in the initial deck posting, but I still like to hear them as possible future "upgrades"!
I was able to take a look at your list. I didn't know Nissa, Worldwaker seems so good! Both of her +1 abilities synergize, either getting Rhonas online if the board was just wiped / you have no other creatures, or ramping. Pretty good value to untap four forests if they're producing double or more mana! I should really consider her.
I also like Vedalken Orrery here too. That I do have a copy of and I want to take a look at my list to see what I might cut for it, essentially acting like a better Yeva, Nature's Herald, and doubling up on instant-speed enablers is always nice. Yeva already takes my deck to the next level if I can play her.
Overall, the power level of your deck looks a bit beefier than mine, but there's nothing wrong with that. I personally like variety in my playgroup so chose not to put all the green bombs in like Craterhoof Behemoth, Avenger of Zendikar, Vigor, etc., but there's a reason they're played so much - they're good!
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm eyeing fitting in Birds of Paradise, Nissa, Worldwaker, and Vedalken Orrery.
That’s a great idea! I didn’t consider Birds of Paradise initially because I thought it was more expensive than what I’m seeing now - almost cheaper than an Eternal Witness these days! I have some store credit to use, so I’ll definitely make that switch.
Unfortunately, Extraplanar Lense is a bit pricier, and I don’t want to spend about $30 to fit the deck with snow-covered lands. Definitely a good addition, but just not for my decklist.
My playgroup has angst against a player in the group that, from time to time (not every time, but often enough) brings out Archetype of Endurance and Avacyn, Angel of Hope together (Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, etc.). I want to shy away from the Archetype of Endurance because of that for a while. Great suggestion though - budget Asceticism effect and synergizes with creature effects.
I actually don’t have a whole lot of innate 5+ power creatures since 4 is the sweet spot for Rhonas, so without pumps, these only affect just under 1/3 of the creatures, which is under 1/9 of the total deck. Good cards if I had more 5+ power without pumps, but just not enough value otherwise, for me.
Predator Ooze is . . . interesting. I understand the value you’ve pointed out, even with a T1 Sol Ring, you’d have to drop he Ooze on T4 because of the GGG requirement. That’s 11 trample power on T4 unless you can also give the Ooze haste by T4 after you’ve played a Solg Ring, Rhonas, and then Nylea. God hand for sure though with a three Forests opener. I don’t like that, by itself, it doesn’t enable Rhonas, but I do like that it’s indestructible, which makes it more likely to stick around for three turns to accumulate the necessary +1 counters since there’s no other counter providers or synergies in the deck. Seems okay, but only in God-mode.
I don’t like infect, so I have not considered Triumph of the Hordes.
OUT
- Asceticism
- Thrun, the Last Troll
IN
+ Acidic Slime
+ Woodfall Primus
Okay, a couple things going on here. Firstly, I figured the lack of non-creature removal would catch up with me: I lost all the games in the most recent outing because I couldn't deal with non-creature permanents. Secondly, I'm really looking to put this all into actual paper without proxies soon and so budget is a concern. This update takes care of two birds with one stone.
Asceticism is powerful, but also pricey $-wise. I actually only got to play it a single time in all the games so far and I was already in a fairly commanding position and board presence so it was more of a win-more that I didn't even need at that point. I don't think I'll miss it, especially considering I'm adding Acidic Slime to help deal with pesky permanents that throw me off. I chose the Slime over Reclamation Sage because I don't think the difference in mana cost is an issue for this deck, it can hit a land if needed (Maze of Ith Glacial Chasm, etc.), and an additional deathtoucher to give trample and buff seems good. I also chose it over re-using World Breaker because it seemed unlikely I would recur him with his own ability and getting him back with one of the Regrowth effect cards would make me want to get the Slime back instead in those instances.
Thrun, the Last Troll seems like the perfect creature for this deck - on curve with Rhonas, 4-power, and super resilient with hexproof and regeneration - but I really wanted to fit some more removal in and this was the next expensive proxy (ironically, he shares that card and lore connection with Asceticism, so it seems fitting they're cut together). I do own a copy of Woodfall Primus, so I added him back to the list from before I posted the decklist. The mana really shouldn't be an issue now that a lot of my ramp effects seem to kick off efficiently, he can come back with persist, enables the Rhonas power threshold, and has innate trample. Stellar all around.
This, absolutely.
1. In the context of the commander format, how would you define what a “casual player” is?
To me, a casual player places more emphasis on actually playing the game and allowing others to do the same. A casual player knows that winning isn't the only goal sometimes and that actually having fun and watching others have fun can be just as or more rewarding than the W, and so actively builds decks and plays this way. The competitive player actively uses certain cards and strategies to win at all costs without much attention to how much (read: lack thereof) fun would actually result for the table. This leads to strategies below.
2. Is what determines if a player is a casual player based on any of the following traits: budget for deck, skill level of the player, type of strategies and cards played, amount of passion for the game.
Certainly all of the above. Sticking to a budget is a way for casual players to be creative and stick to the non-competitive nature of their play style. The easiest, but not only, way to tell a more competitive player (the player trying to win at any cost, form, or function) from a casual player is the cards he or she is using and the strategy with them, particularly if those cards and strategies prevent other players from playing the game or are meant to tilt games in an overtly unfair way. Strategies like resource denial, stax, mass land destruction, plethora of extra turns (I don't play to watch someone play solitaire for half an hour), infect, etc. As mentioned, none of this is actually fun to play against because it's preventing others from playing the game in part or in whole. Every time someone plays to these strategies, I never feel good about how the game went in the end.
I don't think tutors are inherently competitive, but can be in the way they're used and if they're abused/packed by the handful in decks. I understand some players like decks to be consistent and I don't mind if I'm playing against someone who might have a tutor or two in his or her deck. Personally, I never play with them (not including land tutors a la Evolving Wilds, Cultivate, etc.). I too like the variety of play my decks provide without them, it's just so much more fun to discover a new way my deck can gain the upper hand or even pull off a win. I initially tried using tutors and every time I used one, it just felt like I was cheating the spirit of the game. I muuuuuch prefer more card draw as it gives me way more options of things to play with instead of the one specific card that I hand-plucked.
3. Can a casual player be a spike?
I always thought a spike was the definition of the most competitive type of players, so no? I imagine a competitive player can have both casual and competitive decks and get very spiky with the more competitive deck, but then, to me, that's ultimately a competitive player who sometimes like to kick back and relax once in a while.
I always associated EDH with a more casual, fun, easy-going atmosphere, which is why I was drawn tot he format.
4. Do you self-identify as a casual player? Explain your answer.
I identify as a casual player. I don't actively engage in strategies and use cards that prevent others at the table from playing the game. Yes, you may untap all your lands that I won't suddenly destroy half-way in, no you won't suddenly die to an unblockable creature with infect, no I won't assemble an infinite combo before T6, no I won't stack 5-8 extra turns for you to just sit there, and no I won't Mindslaver you three times in a row (true story a Muzzio, Visionary Architect player did to me). I also often restrict myself to a budget because the deck building is way more fun and I can find hidden gems or not-so-often played cards that make things unique.
I like to have fun and I like to have fun with other people having fun. I've seen and been on the other end of competitive players, and I don't want to portray myself like that onto other people.
With that said, if it were me with the Kaalia deck being heavily targeted, despite what I perceive as other seemingly real threats, I would keep the Angel Tribal theme because that's what makes me happy to play, but seriously consider choosing a different commander to lead my Angel Army. If you press on the Kaalia deck and tune it to some maximum potential in an attempt to fight back your opponents (who I imagine are your friends outside the game), it's only going to solidify and reinforce their notions to take you out ASAP and then all kinds of other problems can start to arise with them building decks specifically to take out your Kaalia deck or, worst case, voice that they don't want you to play Kaalia anymore (I personally don't think anyone is of the position to be able to tell someone else what to play and what not to play, but some groups collectively hate on a commander or deck and believe that for their group health and sanity try to suppress those decks). You know the group better than any of us here, so it's your call if you think that's how the group would likely react or if in another way entirely.
I understand you're on a limited budget, and you do enjoy the angels, which is why I think you can and should keep the majority of your deck intact, but maybe switch to a commander that doesn't give off such a negative vibe. The aforementioned Tariel, Reckoner of Souls is a good suggestion, or I think even better if you come to grips with dropping B is Aurelia, the Warleader. Aurelia should be able to cast earlier at 1CMC less and an easier color requirement (2 colors vs 3) than Tariel, has haste (so can attack as soon as she's out, which enables her ability of another combat), and I feel definitely fits the theme of Angels smashing face ("Warleader" Angel herself and extra combats). This should mean you can cast her more than once in a game if needed as well, but that your whole game-plan doesn't require her to be out to be effective. There's a bunch of resources out now that can assist players in developing draw and ramp for Boros colors (just Google "Boros EDH" or "Boros ramp/draw EDH" and you'll find some good stuff with some gems here and there). The Command Zone podcast (they're on YouTube too), a Commander-focused player resource, has a whole episode titled "Breaking Boros" if you're interested, which showcases ways that Boros players can address Boros's natural weaknesses of lack of reliable draw and ramp sources. I don't think it should actually be too difficult with enough mana rocks and other "deck thinning" tricks like getting a bunch of lands out with W stuff Land Tax, Tithe, Gift of Estates Weathered Wayfarer, Knight of the White Orchid, Oreskos Explorer, etc., all ensure your land drops.
So, I say switch Kaalia up with Aurelia, the Warleader, get the gang off your back, stick in the games longer both by that alone and by just playing a lot better (there's always so much more to learn) and tune the deck here and there, and watch your Angel Army rise! You can switch up playing Aurelia and Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith, who I am also a fan of.
Best of luck and brewing!
There's definitely pros and cons to both Rhonas and Nylea. Nylea can pump herself and pumps toughness too, but the pump costs more than Rhonas's pump. Rhonas gives deathtouch access in the command zone though. I ultimately decided on Rhonas because I felt it was easier to keep him "online", especially after a board wipe - easier to get a single creature to 4+ power than to get 5 green devotion in those cases. Plus he's not an enchantment and thus isn't susceptible to enchantment exile.
I hadn't considered Creeping Renaissance yet. I can see some applications to get back key pieces of enchantments back from my yard or a ton of creatures if the game goes longer or to recover from wipes (or I'm being milled, and the flashback helps if this card itself is milled). I'm trying to think back on my games though and can't recall when there was a stack of creatures in my yard that I would want back to my hand - I'd usually have a few other worthwhile creatures in my hand to cast instead - and I've included Eternal Witness and Greenwarden of Murasa as bodies to get me back specific cards if needed and the Seasons Past too. I don't have GY filling effects built-in to the deck, so I don't see me being able to abuse it for CA. Is there some other application I'm not thinking of? Can it be better than the GY recovery pieces I'v already included outside of getting all my creatures back to hand after a bigger board wipe?
I had both Arena and Arcane Lighthouse in the very first "cut down to 99" version/draft of the deck. Arena didn't seem that great to me once I realized that the opponent gets to choose which creature of his or hers will fight mine (likely Rhonas). There was just too much foreseeable variance with the card: most of the time I imagined it taking out an opponent's most dispensable creature, possibly a token. Only taking out important creatures or commanders IF the opponent didn't have any other creatures and IF that single creature didn't have protection. Seemed very unlikely scenario. Once I started cutting the other fight cards, Arcane Lighthouse seemed to have less and less direct application.
Adding Hour of Promise or similar tutor would make it easier to get the Area and Lighthouse (or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Tectonic Edge or any other land that would bring me great utility at that moment), but with no other fight cards or synergy, I'd be paying 3-4 mana and tapping 1-2 additional lands to fight a single creature of my opponents choice once per turn? I don't think it's worth it. If I started putting a few more fight cards back in to take more advantage of the Lighthouse, then I feel I'd certainly have to cut somewhere else, likely in the mana doubling or creature categories - and I feel this deck needs creatures and mana more than targeted fighting. The fight mechanics can certainly have their uses, and a Pounce has certainly saved me from lethal commander damage on a commander I could actually target, but when I started with 8+ fight cards and making it a sub-theme initially, that's all it had done for me in the early handful of games. I'd like to have both lure and fight things going on, very on-theme with Rhonas himself as a card and with the lore, but practically speaking, I feel I'd have to cut somewhere else that I'm not willing to yet.
Still, adding Arcane Lighthouse and Glaring Spotlight would help with other spot removal like Beast Within and Song of the Dryads. I can consider them for that, but I really with Glaring Spotlight allowed opponents to target each other's stuff too, not just allowing me to target since there can be things on the board that I don't have removal to, but other opponents do.
Grandpa Ed is popular. The Edgar Markov player may have things to take control of creatures of any creature type, but I don't think of vampires specifically (at least I can't think of a card that takes control of target vampire, except making it a vampire after control such as New Blood). Something like Captivating Vampire, which I'm sure is a staple in Edgar decks.
Would it help in those situations to include some creature protection? Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are easy suggestions, but Homeward Path should be an easy include (and ways to tutor it up possibly). Mother of Runes and Obsidian Acolyte can help protect against targeted theft effects from black sources - and allow you to block all those black vampires with impunity. There could be a bunch of good stuff I'm not thinking about at the moment. With all of his vampires (and even better if there are a few other tribal decks floating around your meta), a Tsabo's Decree might be in order.
A blue commander option would allow spot and mass bounce removal to take back all creatures player's own to their hans to kind of reset and theft control effects. Devastation Tide, Wash Out, Evacuation, Whelming Wave, the new River's Rebuke for a targeted Cyclonic Rift, and I'm sure an Overburden would put a number on an Edgar Markov or any other creature heavy deck.
Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer and Mathas, Fiend Seeker do seem like a fun pair. Mathas can bring some added "counters matter" cards to supplement Gwafa with like Hunter of Eyeblights (also good against an Edgar Markov deck that puts +1 counters on things on all the vamps) and Kulrath Knight does a good Gwafa impression if he isn't on the field.
EDIT: Holding up an Aetherize or Aetherspouts if you feel a mass steal and swing coming on would help too.
Might I suggest, however, a non-blue alternative in Mathas, Fiend Seeker? I just finished building a decklist for him (not online yet, but soon) and it was a ton of fun. Most other lists online for him are Curse-tribal, and while that's somewhat unique to him, it wasn't my cup of tea, so I just included a lot of "political" type cards, and removal (destroy) to trigger the bounty counters Mathas throws around. You say you're group is playing a lot of creatures and a lot of board wipes? Great, you should have a lot of bounty counter targets for Mathas and when they all blow up, a bunch of life and cards are dished out, including to you. I included stuff like Coercive Portal, No Mercy, Adarkar Valkyrie, Humble Defector, Starke of Rath, and Ogre Slumlord. Basically the deck counts on a lot of death triggers and takes advantage of that. Win conditions include the classic Insurrection (not as cheap a win in a political deck like this), Overwhelming Splendor (Goblin Sharpshooter included), Revel in Riches (pick your package of board wipes to help get you there, Mardu has all of 'em, plus access to Teferi's Protection to ensure you get to your upkeep after you get enough treasure), a slew of "don't mess with me" instant-speed stuff like Backlash, Delirium, Deflecting Palm, Boros Fury-Shield, Comeuppance, and Master Warcraft. You can be political with those too. Tell your opponent you don't want them attacking and you won't have to do something bad to them. They might call your bluff initially, but after a couple times, they may likely think about it more. I included Sunforger to tutor all those up (as well as tutor my other instant speed removal like Go for the Throat, Terminate, etc.), but it's not necessary to make the deck work, although it does make Mathas a 7/3 with menace. I threw in some really good value stuff like Sepulchral Primordial (since things will be going to yards) and Sangromancer for more death happenings value. Blade of the Bloodchief since Mathas is a vampire. Seal of Doom and Seal of Cleansing as rattlesnakes and Sun Titan to recur and reuse those (as well as other permenents).
Queen Marchesa can be used in a similar way.
OUT
- Kusari Gama
- Thornling
- Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
- Pounce
IN
+ Bow of Nylea
+ Majestic Myriarch
+ Dictate of Karametra
+ Bear Umbra
What's scarier than a big 'ol trampler? A big 'ol trampler with deathtouch. True story. Bow of Nylea was a good suggestion just for that alone, but I also realize it can provide minor benefits each round of turns if I have enough mana floating around. +1 counters and life can add up over a handful of turns. I decided to cut the Kusari-Gama for the bow. While cute if it works and another way for opponents to be scared when I say I'm going to combat, it also feels like too much efforts to analyze how I might attack someone myself if I want it to actually work: "Okay, if I attack him, he can block with one creature, but then the Kusari, so he might as well block with all, but do I want to assign all damage to the first blocker and hit everyone else, or how ama I working with deathtouch . . . Yeah, straight trample is simpler on my and my playgroup's brains.
Majestic Myriarch is definitely going in. Worst case he's an additional indestructible deathtoucher that enables Rhonas to attack or block just on his own. Rhonas can give him a pump and trample easy peasy. I took out Thornling because the deck is already creeping up there mana-curve-wise and he's the least impactful 5+ CMC creature that doesn't have trample innately.
I had a feeling for a while that I wanted to cut Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. I don't really have a way to untap her to really take advantage (read: bust) of her to produce infinite mana and Genesis Wave or Walking Ballista or whatever. The best I saw with her was using a bunch of mana to pump the team and then tap her to add a ton more in a one-shot kind of deal to sink into a pump ability before combat damage, but now that I'm leaning more on the non-creature mana producers, I'll let her go. That and I didn't realize originally that she's a bit pricier. I had her proxied in while I test the deck, but if I decided to keep this deck in the collection I know I'd have to pick her up somehow. Along the lines of the big mana doublers/producers theme, I decided to add Bear Umbra. Another really powerful card, but surprisingly more affordable than Selvala or a Sword of Feast and Famine. Unlike the sword though, the Umbra untaps all lands as an aattack trigger and not a damage trigger, which, IMO, ensures I can get that effect more often. Fog or Constant Mists? Sure. I still untap. Plus, as an attack trigger, it opens up all my mana to sink into the pump abilities before actual damage. I'm diggin' it.
I decided to try out the Dictate of Karametra over the Mana Reflection - for now. I'mm try out the Dictate in my playgroup a couple weeks and see if I can make it work how I envision it and how often it enables my opponents more. If it's a real issue, then I'll more seriously consider Reflection or another card. I cut Pounce as the last main remnants of the fight cards. The deck is really starting to go in another direction, although it is a powerful mechanic to bring into green with a deathtouch commander, but I don't feel I'll miss it.
I know what you mean; I’ve been on the more beneficial end of an opponents mana doubler before. Vernal Bloom is relatively safe in my playgroup since we try to avoid playing the same color or same style/strategy decks all in the same game, so it’s less likely that another primary (at least certainly not mono) green deck will be in the same game when I’m playing Rhonas. Still, I know it’s something to watch. I like Dictate of Karametra because I can flash it in right before I try to finish the game out and it’s less likely that my opponents will get to benefit from it. I’ve felt that this effect is just particularly good and synergistic that Heartbeat of Spring is also tempting. You made really good suggestions with Traverse the Outlands and Boundless Realms though! Definitely a way to boost my mana production, keep the boon one-sided, and thin my deck. I’m thinking of what I can cut for those now.
I definitely noticed Rhonas can fight, but in nearly all the games I played with fight cards, it just wasn’t working out for me. There’s a few reasons why, but one of he main ones was that anything really worth using the removal on was usually protected, either as built-in hexproof or supplemented with equipment. I could take out a utility guy not protected here or there, but mostly was unimpactful. If I wanted to take out someone’s protected dude or commander, then the lure effects like Lure, Tempting Licid, and Revenge of the Hunted have been more effective for me.
Rhonas’s Monument and Majestic Myriarch are interesting. The monument I’m not too sold on, even with the flavor(which I usually totally go for). It cheapens my creatures by 1, but I feel like it’s competing with a lot of other things I’d rather play both as a ramp/cheapen effect and at that CMC. The pump is on theme, but it only makes a difference if I plan to attack that turn (admittedly, is often, but not at every combat step opportunity).
The Myriarch seems really good: a second indescribable deathtouch trampler on everyone’s combat until end of turn is awesome. I can cut a lesser impactful creature like Vorapede. He also enables Rhonas with just Rhonas and himself. How did I miss him?!
Thanks for all the suggestions!
That does sound good! I can't decide what to cut though. I'm thinking Kusari-Gama, but that card seems pretty good against go-wide or token based decks that pop up every so-often.
In addition, I'm considering some more mana doublers to make that effect more consistent. Mana Reflection is likely out of my price range, but Dictate of Karametra can be flashed in on the end step before my turn just before I'd need to dump mana into some trample pump abilities, and Heartbeat of Spring is a cheap CMC way to get the effect if I think I can still outpace the boon it gives to opponents as well. Anyone have experience with these?
EDIT: I've actually been proxy-ing the Selvala, Hear of the Wilds because she's a higher priced card too. I can likely cut her for Dictate of Karametra.
OUT
- Thornbite Staff
- Cartouche of Strength
- Wildheart Invoker
- Emporer Crocodile
- Bristling Hydra
- Prowling Serpopard
- Ulvenwald Tracker
- Clear Shot
- Unnatural Aggression
- Seal of Primordium
- World Breaker
- Arcane Lighthouse
IN
+ Eternal Witness
+ Pathbreaker Ibex
+ Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
+ Rampaging Baloths
+ Silvos, Rogue Elemental
+ Wolfbriar Elemental
+ Karametra's Acolyte
+ Vernal Bloom
+ Caged Sun
+ Momentous Fall
+ Shamanic Revelation
+ Reliquary Tower
The Thornbite Staff turns out to be not that great when you don't have a lot of mana to keep using it in succession (more on the mana issue later). There almost always seemed to be a card in the yard I would love to re-use though (draw spells, trample enabler, etc), so I've added Eternal Witness as it has the added 2-power creature value that Rhonas can pump to enable himself if needed, or act as another super-pumped beater from other pump & trample effects.
The targeted trample enablers just weren't cutting it. They would leave me with a really good Rhonas, but lackluster 4 or less powered rest of the team, which wasn't very effective in multiplayer so far. So, I cut Cartouche of Strength and Wildheart Invoker for the repeatable use and creature synergistic Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Pathbreaker Ibex. Both of them are definitely win conditions more-so than the cuts.
Emporer Crocodile, Bristling Hydra, and Prowling Serpopard are all great 4-or-less-drops of 4-power, efficiently enabling Rhonas, but beyond that weren't doing much. The Seporpard renders my creatures un-counterable, but there's not a whole lot of blue and counterspells running around my meta (it's usually me playing mono U doing that), so not as effective for me. I've cut them for Rampaging Baloths, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Wolfbriar Elemental - all of which are superb! Rampaging Baloths can ensure a steady stream of creatures to block after my bigger beaters have attacked, or create an army to pump and attack with, plus it has trample itself. Silvos is another resilient creature, also with trample, that can hang around for a while to ensure Rhonas is enabled - I also think he'd make a great lieutenant for the deck! Wolfbriar is great to have late game (especially after a board wipe), and is made better with the mana doublers I've included (below). It's already happened: "I'll cast Wolfbriar Elemental, with kicker up to 11+." Then proceed to pump them with Kamahl or give them intimidate with Bellowing Tanglewurm. Just awesome.
The fight mechanic cards altogether weren't cutting it for me. One time in the handful of games so far I used one to save myself from lethal commander damage - while nice, I feel they wouldn't be missed. I was always torn with debating using one to take out a utility creature that isn't directly threatening me right now but could be worse later, or save it in the need-to-use-it-now-to-save-my-life situation, if I have the mana open. Since the general theme started to move away from targeting Rhonas with effects, I chose to cut them in the favor of much needed ramp effects in Karametra's Acolyte, Vernal Bloom, and Caged Sun. Wow, the difference these cards make when you want to do "things" and dump mana into Rhonas's, Nylea's or Kamahl's pump abilities. These made huge differences (coupled with Regal Behemoth) in synergy with the draw spells too: I could dump some mana to pump a creature, then use a power-conditional draw spell such as Momentous Fall, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Soul's Majesty, etc. to draw a ton of cards. Definitely worth the change when Forests tap for 2X (or 3X!) the mana.
Speaking of draw, I decided to remove Seal of Primordium and World Breaker for Momentous Fall and Shamanic Revelation. Both have been valuable already (Fall actually saving my Rhonas from being "stolen"/taken control of once). Cutting removal from the deck makes me weary, but if the deck is drawing cards and ramping enough to get things out there and pumped, then it's doing it's "thing" and gets me closer to removing the player.
With drawing a lot of cards, I've actually found myself discarding down to size wayyyyyy more often than I'd like. Greenwarden of Murasa, Seasons Past, and now Eternal Witness help bring back the really important stuff, but drawing into a Reliquary Tower every once in a while gives me more options. Taking out the targeting fight mechanic cards, I decided to cut Arcane Lighthouse.
That's the changes for now!
I’m used to brewing a lot of U related decks, but recently decided to build and put to paper a couple non-blue decks for variety and to step a bit outside of my box, while still having fun doing so. I brewed a lot of lists, but the first commander to paper ended up being Rhonas the Indomitable!
I like Rhonas the Indomitable firstly because he is indestructible so he can be pretty resilient. Secondly, deathtouch seems like a good way to force opponents into difficult combat situations, and other damage enablers (i.e. the fight mechanic or pinging) essentially act as destroy effects. Lastly, his activated ability pumps and adds trample to another creature, thus aiding in his own threshold requirement and adding some more combat nuances for opponents to think about. Subtly, Rhonas can give this pump + evasion (as many times as he’d like without having to tap, provided enough mana) to any creature, not just your own, which can have political implications if you’re willing to use it that way – this is something I wish Thassa, God of the Sea could do at times to help other players deal with problem situations, which could also garner me benefits in the form of political favor or closer to victory.
I perused lists and brainstormed ideas, gathering great inspiration from Honor Basquiat’s “Indomitable Four Drops” list (using one-drop ramps to get Rhonas out as early as T2, followed up by an efficient four-drop 4+ power creature to get Rhonas “online” and swinging right away). My very first paper version took this strategy with a couple tweaks, but in multiplayer play seemed too much like a red aggro deck, swinging 5 commander damage on someone by T3. I would deal a lot of damage to one player (maybe taking someone out early), or would spread a lot of damage around the table, effectively crippling life totals to about half-life around the table, but then I would either run out of gas or opponents would obviously combine forces and energies to come back at me, archenemy style, which becomes difficult to fend off 2-3 payers at once even with a handful of beefy beaters and Rhonas. So, I decided to make the deck a bit slower and a bit more methodical in it’s approach instead of letting Rhonas loose ASAP and hope that no one can keep up.
After a couple small revisions in this new direction, I feel at an impasse, with cuts becoming excruciating, but still I feel the deck may not be wholly focused with efficient synergies. I’m posting the list here with a breakdown of my intended strategy hoping to get some feedback from all you wonderful folks! Here is the current list:
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
Lands (36)
1 Buried Ruin
29 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Homeward Path
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (7)
1 Caged Sun
1 Haunted Cloak
1 Helm of the Host
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Mirage Mirror
1 Sol Ring
1 Vedalken Orrery
Enchantments (8)
1 Bear Umbra
1 Elemental Bond
1 Lure
1 Rancor
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Vow of Wildness
1 Beast Within
1 Berserk
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Hunter's Insight
Sorceries (9)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Hunter's Prowess
1 Overwhelming Stampede
1 Revenge of the Hunted
1 Rishkar's Expertise
1 Seasons Past
1 Shamanic Revelation
1 Soul's Majesty
1 Traverse the Outlands
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Creatures (33)
1 Acidic Slime
1 Arbor Elf
1 Baru, Fist of Krosa
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bramble Sovereign
1 Brawn
1 Drumhunter
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Garruk's Packleader
1 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
1 Greenwarden of Murasa
1 Grothama, All-Devouring
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Karametra's Acolyte
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Majestic Myriarch
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Paleoloth
1 Pathbreaker Ibex
1 Regal Behemoth
1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Tempting Licid
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Thunderfoot Baloth
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Yeva, Nature's Herald
4/30: I'm relaxing my tutors requirement for now with Green Sun's Zenith in the deck and thinking about Primal Command.
Get creatures out. Get trampler and pump enablers out. Get mana doublers and similar to gets lots of mana to drop into the trampler and pump enablers. Attack.
My current vision is semi-Voltron with a pump and trample sub-theme, most exciting me to use as a way for opponents to make that hard decision to keep their armies but take more commander damage, or throw bodies in front of Rhonas but have nearly nothing left to block with the next round. An indestructible trampler with deathtouch is scary to start taking 21 damage from and is deadly effective when blocked, effectively becoming a “destroy” board wipe if trying to prevent that damage. For the time I want to wipe the opponent’s creatures, I’ve included lure effects like the namesake Lure and Tempting Licid. Nothing survives that crosses Rhonas's path: shroud or hexproof? Rhonas doesn't care. Deathtouch, first strike, double strike? Rhonas still doesn't care. Unless the creature has indestructible, it almost certainly isn't surviving a forced block against the K.O. King.
Sol Ring, Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor, Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, and Llanowar Elves all help to get Rhonas out early still, but also act as general ramp.
Then, four- and five-drop creatures to get Rhonas online at least to get an indestructible deathtouching blocker out to deter early aggro unless I want to actually use him. I focused on resilient creatures (built-in protection preferred) to prevent having to redeploy too much from a board wipe or unfavorable combat result, such as: Baru, Fist of Krosa, Nylea, God of the Hunt, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, and Temur Sabertooth.
Then, I want to set up trample enablers (Rhonas can target pump and enable trample), particularly for Rhonas to force opponents to take more commander damage or to essentially sacrifice creatures to him. I like the enchantment and equipment variants on Rhonas because it’s less likely that he will be 2-for-1’ed by removal. The trample package I’m going with for now includes: Rancor, Vow of Wildness, Berserk (which can also target an opponent’s creature if necessary to deal with other opponents), Overwhelming Stampede, Revenge of the Hunted, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, the aforementioned Nylea, God of the Hunt, Pathbreaker Ibex, Thunderfoot Baloth, Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma pumps the team and grants trample on attack (and Rhonas can pump it to ensure it lives the danger zone for the trigger) and a recently added equipment package that includes Haunted Cloak.
The final stage involves using the power of mana doublers to exponentially increase my mana output to dump into the trample pump abilities within Rhonas, Nylea, Kamahl, etc. For now, I'm running Caged Sun, Vernal Bloom, Dictate of Karametra (symmetrical, but with flash I can hope to use it on my turn to finish the game before others can take advantage), and Regal Behemoth. Karametra's Acolyte and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx help in generating huge chunks of mana as well since 80%+ of the deck are permanents with many green pips to go around.
There are usually some sort of utility or big value creatures that opponents will never attack or block with making it difficult to remove them normally in a deck like this, so I have included a few ways to force blocks such as Lure, Tempting Licid, Tower Above, and Revenge of the Hunted can force them to block Rhonas for a timely death as well.
1. Getting Rhonas through with the various trample enablers, or paving the way to an open board with him via Lure, Tempting Licid, or Revenge of the Hunted. Berserk gets 21 commander damage through with little pump effort.
2. Pump the team with trample effects like Nylea, God of the Hunt, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Pathbreaker Ibex, or Overwhelming Stampede, preferably with a way to produce a lot of mana to sink into them.
3. Get Bellowing Tanglewurm to stick and hope the opponent doesn’t have removal or green creatures. Really, I’m not seeing much more win conditions that this since the deck is more linear than other decks I have.
4. Helm of the Host creating an army of indestructible Rhonas's (even if answered right away, a couple of beeft indestructible deathtouchers that can trample pump themselves is still pretty menacing).
4. Assemble the pieces for a soft infinite combo. Special thanks to Ertai Planeswalker for bringing it up and explaining it!
Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge for the Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm users.
Card draw with Lifecrafter’s Bestiary, Elemental Bond, Sylvan Library, Hunter’s Insight, Rishkar’s Expertise, Shamanic Revelation, Soul’s Majesty, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Drumhunter, Garruk’s Packleader, Grothama, All-Devouring, and Soul of the Harvest.
Heroic Intervention for some board protection when opponents think things are getting too hairy.
Seasons Past, Eternal Witness, Greenwarden of Murasa, Paleoloth, and Buried Ruin for some yard recursion for key pieces back to my hand.
LOTS of other Rhonas-enabling 4-drops, notably Polukranos, World Eater, Chameleon Colossus, and Vengevine. I had them in at one time, but cut them for various reasons. For example, I cut Polukranos because this deck doesn’t necessarily produce a boat-ton of mana like most other green decks so leaves his Monstrosity ability lackluster. Same with the Colossus: cool to double, then quadruple him up if he has trample, but very lacking compared to other decks that can actually abuse this more by making him 32+ power regularly.
Speaking of tample:
Pathbreaker Ibex could be good here (more so IMO than Craterhoof Behemoth since I don’t make a while ton of creatures at once), but it has no built-in protection and is more easily removed as a creature effect. I’ve seen it used well and essentially a +5/+5 and trampler enabler each turn with Rhonas out is tempting, but I’m not fully on board with it.I've added this now, and it's sooooo good.I ended up cutting Woodfall Primus. I liked that he has trample, enables Rhonas, and is somewhat resilient with persist, but it was always kind of awkward for me either holding on to him in hand waiting for a juicy target to remove or having him stuck in hand because of the mana cost.I've added him back.Siege Behemoth was a way to ensure damage gets through, but with all the trample felt like he was win-more.
Arena seemed good until I realized the opponent gets to choose which creature they want to have fight Rhonas.
I’m sure I’ve considered other cards as well, but hadn’t recorded them with the other versions.
I feel like this deck is in a good spot now. I've changed the theme/strategy from the "fight" mechanic and select single pumps to Rhonas to more draw, ramp, and more team pump with trample, best aided by mana doubling. It feels much more green goodstuffs, but it's way more effective, and I'm okay with that (for now).
I'd really like to improve on this though, so I'm all ears for way to synergize the elements of draw, ramp, big creatures, and trample - short of Craterhoof Benemoth.
What do you all think of the Rhonas + Trample & Pump + big mana production? Too much going on in one area? Not enough going on? Are there other ways to make this effective? Thanks for the advice!