I was legitimately just wondering why. I like Collective Brutality a lot as a card, but usually you want it in situations where discarding cards isn't the worst or where your deck is all "good stuff" and your top-decking isn't bad. It does give us a way to interact with non spells, which is great. I think it would right at home next to Lingering Souls, if we're going that deep into black.
In general, I find four color pretty greedy. Brutality might work better in an Abzan toolbox deck.
Why would we do this? Seems like we give up a lot to play a card that we have no upside to discarding to. Brutality does do good things, but I just don't see it.
Thank you for the great posting, burgleburgle. I agree with this. I think the anti-traverse people are just skeptical and this helps narrow down what can be good about it.
Has someone collected matchup data for the regular eldritch evolution, 4 birds, no bolt build? I've been reading this thread for some time and it feels like everyone is trying to fix problems that maybe aren't there in the first place (that build, like the old chord builds, did well at tournaments and pushed this to tier2). The real discussion might not be how to fit 4 bolts or which should be the 5-8 tutors and how to enable all this things consistently, but to identify the bad matchups and then fix them.
In my experience with this deck, the problem that it had was clunkyness. Lots of 4/5 drops, silver bullets drawn when being completely irrelevant, lines of play that were one turn too slow to be relevant... In addition to that, when playing against it with other decks, the lack of speed was clear too.
And I don't think that the way to solve this problem is cutting acceleration, or adding a chord with basic landcycling 1 plus many mediocre cards. Dredge just got cathartic reunion, eldrazi are consistent fast and disruptive beaters, infect can T2 kill us and meanwhile we are trying to recast lightning bolt with eternal witness and zero acceleration.
I don't really want to be mean with your work, but I had to say it. If you don't agree with me, please tell me.
In my experience that build seems a bit too slow to be taking to anything semi-competitive these days. The format has changed quite a bit with Dredge and Bant Eldrazi being a thing. But that doesn't mean people can't do well with it. I would definitely like to see some data on this, though.
Being able to run four more tutors with the cost being "Run Filigree Familiar and maybe a 1 of" seems like a low hoop to jump through. Liking chord more is fine, but it isn't derailing.
Has anyone tested faithless looting with traverse? Its a sorcery, so literally just discarding a land and a courser gives you delirium. With the right hand, you could easily tutor for a silver bullet on turn 2 and play it on turn three.
It's card disadvantage, but our deck with active traverses probably doesn't mind that much. It also digs us to disruption, pitches bad tutor targets, and helps us deal with extra lands.
This is card disadvantage with minimal upside. We have hardly any other graveyard synergy outside of Eternal Witness and Traverse, so looting does little to nothing. Just running any other sorcery that does anything I imagine would be better.
The problem with counting cards like filigree and courser is that if you're playing against affinity or ad nauseum or valakut, they'll kill you without interacting with your creatures and you'll be stuck with lay of the land.
I sort of agree. Courser is very hard to really count in this kind of circumstance. Courser is a good card, but it isn't usually sitting in the graveyard come turn 3-4. I disagree on Filigree, however. Filigree is just built to die. Whether it be chump blocking or evolution, it will get into the yard, and fast. Even against affinity.
This is why non-creature spells are best for the 4th card type. They go straight to the graveyard right after you cast them. I'm thinking Tarfire/Flame Slash/Forked Bolt are the best options alongside Filigree.
[quote from="DeadPresident2910 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company-kiki-evolution?comment=3911"]Delirium will likely be harder to trigger than people first expect in this deck. Test with it considerably and come to a conclusion afterwards
Exactly. This is the most important factor to consider how well Traverse works in this deck. It isn't just "Oh our deck is okay at delirum" like Abzan. You need to run more Filigrees, or run some other cards to enable it if you want to play Traverse.
I agree. I think if people are trying the Traverse path. Instant land and creature are super easy. Sorcery and artifact are the hard ones. I think that you just have to live with the first traverse being your enabler. Maybe swap a bolt or path for a flame slash like someone else posted earlier.
Honestly the cards that I think are worth it for this "4th card type" are: Tarfire, Flame Slash, Filigree Familiar, More Spellskites, and Forked Bolt. Remind me if I'm forgetting any other good ones.
Delirium will likely be harder to trigger than people first expect in this deck. Test with it considerably and come to a conclusion afterwards
Exactly. This is the most important factor to consider how well Traverse works in this deck. It isn't just "Oh our deck is okay at delirum" like Abzan. You need to run more Filigrees, or run some other cards to enable it if you want to play Traverse.
Here's what I think I will be going with. I really like the inclusion of Ishkanah, Grafwidow she's easy to get out on a three drop (if you don't want to get kiki). She makes 3 1/2 spiders with reach that are good chump blockers. If you blink her with Resto you get even more spiders. And as a side win condition if you have delirium online then you can use black from the overgrown tomb, or a bird, and set off that effect after potentially chump blocking/swinging in.
Really wish I had the room / the balls to test Ishkanah. One problem I am seeing with this list is it will be hard to get delirium. You have a total of only 5 cards that have a non-creature, non land, or non instant card type in the main (Counting the 2x Traverse, even). Eldritch Evolution hardly ever counts because it is almost never in the yard. I would up this count by a few if you want to consistently hit delirium.
The basic concept of the "birdless" versions was that if the deck is running bolt and less three drops, we don't need mana dorks as much. Especially with traverse finding lands. It was a simple experiment. And I think a failed one. Back on birds again.
Did very well at Kaladesh Modern Gameday (my LGS does these instead of a second standard gameday because modern is so popular) with the Traverse build I have been playing. Got to the finals vs Affinity and was 2-1 on game three. The next two games I had solid openers with ancient grudges and removal, but both games I drew just about 8 lands in a row and lost off the back of that. Bad luck, most likely. Still infuriating.
Anyways, my experience with Traverse is that Traverse is comparable to chord. Not better, not worse, just comparable. In some situations it is faster, in some it is a bit clunky, but chord can be clunky too. Baubles definitely aren't the direction I want to be taking the deck. They are a viable option for getting another card type in the yard but the redraw can really screw you, drawing too many lands (Which I feel like this deck has a problem with already). If the baubles were anything else with a fourth card type like a flame slash or a tarfire, they would be worth a lot more than bauble in most situations. Another thing is the lack of birds. I definitely miss having birds, as with some draws you are really top heavy and aren't progressing board without the acceleration. I'm trying birds + traverse next, I think.
With 4x Birds and 3x Traverse and 22 lands, we would effectively have about 29 slots that are "mana sources". Is is possible to trim down to 21 lands? Tell me what you think.
I am still of the opinion that Filigree, Spellskite and Traverse fill up delirium quite good enough if you are trying the Traverse build. I'm trying a version with only 2x baubles and it definitely hits delirium without diluting the deck. Having the extra consistency for delirium helps Traverse not feel so damn clunky. Only having about 19-20 creatures isn't as bad as people are saying. We don't need to fuel for chord, we just need 2-3 drops that are good evo targets. If you are searching your deck for a 3rd or 4th copy of something, you're probably losing the game. So moving some slots (Two slots) to baubles just draws you into your good stuff. Mishra's bauble doesn't really count as a spell, it counts as a creature, a spell, and a land because it immediately cantrips. It's a weird card to evaluate, but it definitely isn't "bad deckbuilding".
That being said, going deep on the delrium with cycling cards and a bunch of other crazy stuff doesn't seem worth the slots, and that is the point where your creature count and spell count are definitely stretched too far.
I'd recommend baubles if you want to try to get delirium more consistently, but 4x is too much space being taken up.
How often do you turn on delerium and by what turn?
I understand that you miss Ooze. He just does so darn much. Starts out as a simple 2/2 for 2. Sometimes he chumpblocks, sometimes he eats removal taking heat of your other creatures. But for the rest of the time he completly grows out of porpotion and takes over games. And once in a blue moon the life gain saves you from burn.
Jumping through this many hoops I really wish we had a 5th card that cares about delerium. Unfortunatly Goyfs are out of my price range, but I assume that would be the only other card in modern that cares about it.
The only two cards I can think of that would work as a second delirium payoff would be Ishkanah and Grim Flayer. Ishkanah seems okay. A bunch of reach bodies to block fliers against Infect/Affinity doesn't seem like the worst.
About the "colorless splash", Thought-Knot Seer is a great card. Period. I would think if we would want to splash for this "4th color" we would want to run more than just a 1 of TKS. Matter Reshaper seems solid, and you could easily splash for 2x of TKS and 2x Reshaper if that's the direction you would want to take the deck. I'm not a fan of it, but hey. I think testing both the colorless splash and Traverse seems like a lot to test at once, though.
Tried the traverse list to mixed results last night. Not a fan of the Strangleroot Geists at all... A bit too aggressive and just overall not a good fit for a value/midrange deck in my opinion. I like Traverse a decent bit, but I kept having the feeling that we get to 3 card types (Creature, Land, Instant) really easily, but the fourth can be tricky. Running 2x Familiar, the 1x Spellskite and the other 3x of Traverse seem to the be the only way to get a 4th type of card in the graveyard. Possible solutions to this? Maybe run another spellskite main? I like the idea of Engineered Explosives main as well. I think about 10x cards of the 4th type would be necessary maindeck to make the card work.
Try it with the baubles! List is a page back. If you test it, I'd like feedback.
I'd probably have a hard time cutting cards to get to the point where I would run the full set of baubles, but I'm not opposed to running 2x. Abzan does it fairly frequently to enable delirum on Flayer. I'll try it out.
In general, I find four color pretty greedy. Brutality might work better in an Abzan toolbox deck.
Why would we do this? Seems like we give up a lot to play a card that we have no upside to discarding to. Brutality does do good things, but I just don't see it.
In my experience that build seems a bit too slow to be taking to anything semi-competitive these days. The format has changed quite a bit with Dredge and Bant Eldrazi being a thing. But that doesn't mean people can't do well with it. I would definitely like to see some data on this, though.
This is card disadvantage with minimal upside. We have hardly any other graveyard synergy outside of Eternal Witness and Traverse, so looting does little to nothing. Just running any other sorcery that does anything I imagine would be better.
I sort of agree. Courser is very hard to really count in this kind of circumstance. Courser is a good card, but it isn't usually sitting in the graveyard come turn 3-4. I disagree on Filigree, however. Filigree is just built to die. Whether it be chump blocking or evolution, it will get into the yard, and fast. Even against affinity.
This is why non-creature spells are best for the 4th card type. They go straight to the graveyard right after you cast them. I'm thinking Tarfire/Flame Slash/Forked Bolt are the best options alongside Filigree.
Honestly the cards that I think are worth it for this "4th card type" are: Tarfire, Flame Slash, Filigree Familiar, More Spellskites, and Forked Bolt. Remind me if I'm forgetting any other good ones.
Exactly. This is the most important factor to consider how well Traverse works in this deck. It isn't just "Oh our deck is okay at delirum" like Abzan. You need to run more Filigrees, or run some other cards to enable it if you want to play Traverse.
Really wish I had the room / the balls to test Ishkanah. One problem I am seeing with this list is it will be hard to get delirium. You have a total of only 5 cards that have a non-creature, non land, or non instant card type in the main (Counting the 2x Traverse, even). Eldritch Evolution hardly ever counts because it is almost never in the yard. I would up this count by a few if you want to consistently hit delirium.
Anyways, my experience with Traverse is that Traverse is comparable to chord. Not better, not worse, just comparable. In some situations it is faster, in some it is a bit clunky, but chord can be clunky too. Baubles definitely aren't the direction I want to be taking the deck. They are a viable option for getting another card type in the yard but the redraw can really screw you, drawing too many lands (Which I feel like this deck has a problem with already). If the baubles were anything else with a fourth card type like a flame slash or a tarfire, they would be worth a lot more than bauble in most situations. Another thing is the lack of birds. I definitely miss having birds, as with some draws you are really top heavy and aren't progressing board without the acceleration. I'm trying birds + traverse next, I think.
With 4x Birds and 3x Traverse and 22 lands, we would effectively have about 29 slots that are "mana sources". Is is possible to trim down to 21 lands? Tell me what you think.
That being said, going deep on the delrium with cycling cards and a bunch of other crazy stuff doesn't seem worth the slots, and that is the point where your creature count and spell count are definitely stretched too far.
I'd recommend baubles if you want to try to get delirium more consistently, but 4x is too much space being taken up.
The only two cards I can think of that would work as a second delirium payoff would be Ishkanah and Grim Flayer. Ishkanah seems okay. A bunch of reach bodies to block fliers against Infect/Affinity doesn't seem like the worst.
About the "colorless splash", Thought-Knot Seer is a great card. Period. I would think if we would want to splash for this "4th color" we would want to run more than just a 1 of TKS. Matter Reshaper seems solid, and you could easily splash for 2x of TKS and 2x Reshaper if that's the direction you would want to take the deck. I'm not a fan of it, but hey. I think testing both the colorless splash and Traverse seems like a lot to test at once, though.
I'd probably have a hard time cutting cards to get to the point where I would run the full set of baubles, but I'm not opposed to running 2x. Abzan does it fairly frequently to enable delirum on Flayer. I'll try it out.