What do we think of cutting a land from 18 lands to 17 lands and going up to 12 mana dorks?
My reasoning for this is that having 1 or 2 mana dorks in opener is absolutely CRUCIAL to having a keepable hand.
Mana dorks 9-12 can be any number of Boreal Druids / Elves of Deep Shadow (I want to try a 2/2 split to mitigate hurting myself too often)
Thoughts?
What would you take out in place of the 3 dorks you're adding? I think it's interesting but it's very difficult to cut some stuff especially with our deck having 50 or more cards that are crucial.
It would be trimming flex slots for consistency (E.g. No Elvish Visionary, Eternal Witness or Scooze/Rec Sage).
The one issue I have with it is that it makes sideboarding trickier, with less flex slots to cut easily.
EDIT: I should clarify, this would be for the BG Shaman version of the deck. The GW already has decent additional dorks in Devoted Druid.
The idea is simple: integrate the Vizier combo with minimal impact to the main Knightfall plan. No Duskwatch Recruiter-Ballista nonsense: I can Chord straight into Rhonas the Indomitable, Coco into it, or use Kessig Wolf-Run for infinite damage. I'm taking a middle ground between Eli Kassis' list and Kelvin Chew's by running 3 Vizier of Remedies.
The Knightfall plan is largely intact: 4 Knight, 2 Retreat, 7 dorks, 3 paths, and 3 Spell Queller. I'm running 21 lands rather than the usual 22 to compensate for the fact that there are 11 manadorks counting Devoted Druid. The fact that there are 4 utility lands helps mitigate mana flooding. We unfortunately lose out on Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix value, and Vendillion Clique is totally impossible for us to cast, but that's ok because we have Eternal Witness value instead! Witness was already a totally reasonable option, and now it helps us combo off and use all out mana every turn. It's great and it would not be unreasonable to try and fit in a fourth.
Looks like we are on similar lists. Rhonas vs Ballista is sort of a preference thing, as they usually do the exact same thing in a combo context. Only thing that stops Rhonas is double removal spell. I've opted for the Ballista myself, as even though you don't get it off of Chord or CoCo ever, it's useful as a removal spell in match-ups like Affinity. Might test Rhonas as well and see which I prefer. Another note about your list is a small sideboard thing. 2x Stony in the board when you have 4 CoCos and 3 Chords is a bit odd. Kataki fits better in decks like this because of how easy it is to find him. You'll be kicking yourself if you can chord for 2 vs Affinity and you don't have him. Here's my list:
Adding the Vizier/Druid combo shifts us from a mix of grinding and "combo" to a lot of combo. Hence, my mainboard is all in on the combo plan, cutting paths and moving them to the board for games 2 and 3 where we can switch to a more reactive strategy if we need to. Generally, this is preference as well. I see it as game 1 you need to focus on your plan, then games 2 and 3 you can react to what you are playing against.
If your deck is already running 4x Path to Exile, Fatal Push is better than Terminate, full stop. As previously stated in this thread, it hits a very high percentage of the format, even without revolt. If you have path in your deck to handle these 5+ cmc creatures, you will be fine. To need 5 or more spells that kill 5+ cmc creatures in the maindeck is just pure madness if you look at the format at large. Unless Valakut decks and Eldrazi become public enemy #1, you won't have to worry.
It's just... Traverse without Goyf? I think that's a no-go. Goyf is so good and if your main aim is to get delirium running Goyf is a logic consequence.
But well, if Spellsnare is a reactive T1 play, so why isn't Bolt?
What about just expanding the discard package? Adding some Inquisition of Kozilek in addition to 1-2 Collective Brutalities. T1 discard clears the way for a T2 Voice or Wall and having information always feels good, especially with a deck that somehow has to take a specific role within the game.
Yeah, I knew that would wake y'all up. If you're experiencing a sudden increase in Skred, I'd recommend jamming a Cloudthresher in your sideboard until the excitement dies down. I mean, I guess you could Ruric Thar if you want to be boring about it. Stony Silences also good.
Cloudthresher seems like it would be terrible in a lot of matchups, and good in just one, where Ruric can be good against many decks.
I don't think Tracker changes the deck in any significant way, and is just an option to run if you want extra grinding power. You run them in your flex slots and it doesn't change the gameplan much, just gives extra points against GBx and other decks.
Sometimes when I'm brewing my mind wanders far. I love toolboxes. I've probably brewed a deck for every tutor in modern. And they're awful. But I keep brewing. You think this deck is being pulled in too many directions lately? We haven't even scratched the surface. I want to play all the tutors:
Nope, it's definitely not Abzan Company, which is why I only said that it might be of interest to the people here. I don't think we should be discussing the list in depth, but I do think it's relevant to have on peoples' radars as an option since it's similar to our deck and everyone here already owns 90% of the cards for it. I'm just looking at it as news -- this is the first time I've seen a list like this pop up at a tournament, so it's an interesting development.
Gotcha, I meant no disrespect. This kind of list was very prevalent at Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch before Eldrazi Winter. It's solid, if a bit inconsistent.
Also probably of interest to y'all is that there was a similar list that dropped Company and the Melira combo entirely to go all-in on SpikeFeeder -- it ended up placing at 38th.
There's too many directions this deck is getting pulled into lately, and it's very hard to tell what the right direction is. Starting to think I need a break from the deck to clear my head and approach it from a fresh direction.
Hockey - I really like the direction your list is going. Lingering souls has fantastic synergy with both chord and brutality.
Just a couple of points - you're playing a toolbox deck. Testing a 60 is not very efficient when a single sideboard card can drastically swing postboard games (pontiff and rhetoric are examples). I think you would need to test a full 75 cards to really understand the strengths and weaknesses of your list.
Secondly, the manabase you suggested is approaching unrealistic territory. You need black mana early and often for souls and brutality, so you're essentally an abzan deck "splashing" for heavy red cards. Have you considered cutting red? I know you lose some sense of identity doing that, but XGGG, 2RRR, GW, and 1B is going to lose you games.
Criticism aside, I feel like brutality and souls could be really strong. Was this your brainchild? It makes we want to take another look at my old abzan archangel chord deck.
I've toyed with Archangel quite a bit, and generally the combo is less versatile than Kiki, in my opinion. I have multiple ideas for some Abzan toolboxes in my head, and Brutality + Souls is definitely in there.
Back to my list, yes I realize the sideboard is very very important. And 4 colors in general is very hard to do, imo. That's why the manabase blows. Cutting red is a real thing I've considered, which I won't get into more than I have because this is a Kiki thread. I just wish the fixing was solid enough to use the kiki combo alongside an Abzan toolbox.
Everyone's points on Collective Brutality got me thinking a bit. As well, I did fairly poorly with Traverse last night and have started to miss the reliability of chord. Right now our problem areas are spell based combo, big mana decks, and Dredge. As a result, I wanted to play with Brutalities and Lingering Souls, as they synergize well and both help in at least two of those areas. Lingering Souls can help slow down the game against dredge and give us decent blockers, as well as shore up the affinity match-up and be something decent to discard to Brutality. As you all pointed out earlier, Brutality is versatile and helps against spells, can gain us life, and kill creatures. I was thinking this as a 60 I would test soon:
It would be trimming flex slots for consistency (E.g. No Elvish Visionary, Eternal Witness or Scooze/Rec Sage).
The one issue I have with it is that it makes sideboarding trickier, with less flex slots to cut easily.
EDIT: I should clarify, this would be for the BG Shaman version of the deck. The GW already has decent additional dorks in Devoted Druid.
My reasoning for this is that having 1 or 2 mana dorks in opener is absolutely CRUCIAL to having a keepable hand.
Mana dorks 9-12 can be any number of Boreal Druids / Elves of Deep Shadow (I want to try a 2/2 split to mitigate hurting myself too often)
Thoughts?
Looks like we are on similar lists. Rhonas vs Ballista is sort of a preference thing, as they usually do the exact same thing in a combo context. Only thing that stops Rhonas is double removal spell. I've opted for the Ballista myself, as even though you don't get it off of Chord or CoCo ever, it's useful as a removal spell in match-ups like Affinity. Might test Rhonas as well and see which I prefer. Another note about your list is a small sideboard thing. 2x Stony in the board when you have 4 CoCos and 3 Chords is a bit odd. Kataki fits better in decks like this because of how easy it is to find him. You'll be kicking yourself if you can chord for 2 vs Affinity and you don't have him. Here's my list:
1x Walking Ballista
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Vizier of Remedies
3x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
4x Chord of Calling
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
4x Collected Company
Lands
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
Adding the Vizier/Druid combo shifts us from a mix of grinding and "combo" to a lot of combo. Hence, my mainboard is all in on the combo plan, cutting paths and moving them to the board for games 2 and 3 where we can switch to a more reactive strategy if we need to. Generally, this is preference as well. I see it as game 1 you need to focus on your plan, then games 2 and 3 you can react to what you are playing against.
Because fun is a thing.
Cloudthresher seems like it would be terrible in a lot of matchups, and good in just one, where Ruric can be good against many decks.
Yes please don't play this, for the love of god. Bury it.
Gotcha, I meant no disrespect. This kind of list was very prevalent at Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch before Eldrazi Winter. It's solid, if a bit inconsistent.
This isn't really "Abzan Company" at all. There's a thread for that deck, and this isn't it.
I've toyed with Archangel quite a bit, and generally the combo is less versatile than Kiki, in my opinion. I have multiple ideas for some Abzan toolboxes in my head, and Brutality + Souls is definitely in there.
Back to my list, yes I realize the sideboard is very very important. And 4 colors in general is very hard to do, imo. That's why the manabase blows. Cutting red is a real thing I've considered, which I won't get into more than I have because this is a Kiki thread. I just wish the fixing was solid enough to use the kiki combo alongside an Abzan toolbox.
Probably in the board. This is just the maindeck.
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
3x Voice of Resurgence
3x Wall of Omens
1x Wall of Roots
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Restoration Angel
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Reveillark
4x Path to Exile
2x Collective Brutality
4x Chord of Calling
4x Lingering Souls
Lands: 23
1x Fire-lit Thicket
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Mountain
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills