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  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Then I guess my MTG terms must be outdated since I always assumed that Tapout meant lots of high-impact spells at sorcery speed while draw-go is lots of spells at instant speed. Then again, rare does a blue deck not have both synergies in it. Yes, I can see where you're coming from but a lot of these are ideal scenarios for post sideboard games where we have 2 Stone Rains in hand plus a resolved early Blood Moon in play & they never drew sideboard cards or counterspells.

    You've made it clear that you very much prefer the R/W Sun & Moon version of the deck & yes, I agree that version plays better (puts up the most consistent results). I, however, play the original Bridge Control version of the deck as that's what I prefer to play. I could make my case why having Bridges & the 2 Leylines main can be effective but I've a feeling you're not going to want to entertain the idea any further.

    WIthout Bridge, Nahiri is the best planeswalker to be played in this deck no questions asked. Unfortunately, it's a nonbo for my deck so I brewed & tried to tackle the problem. Saheeli gives me a way to combo under it.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Quote from Brightmist »
    UW control lists of today are tapout and not draw-go so they run a similiar gameplan to our PW control stuff. Difference between us and them is we're more threat and removal dense while they have more mana denial, cantrips and counterspells. Their mana denial plan doesn't work against us since our manabase is solid and we can present only nonbasic targets to Spreading Seas early game to turn them back to mountains with BM later on. I'm not sure about Defense Grid on the side against UW control here as I generally got better results running 2-3x Molten Rain. They're really light on basics compared to us even they run a 2 color deck because they have so many utility lands(GQ, Tec Edge, Colonnade, fetches, shocklands, checklands etc.). So with all this in mind, having a combination of Blood Moon&Molten Rains and good land drops, we can get us far ahead to cast a threat and go to town with it. Remember they run only a limited number of counterspells so you have to try to jam stuff in sometimes playing around Mana Leak if possible. They really can't put enough pressure against planeswalkers if their manabase and gy is disrupted so they can't get value off their Snapcaster Mage, Logic Knot etc. I side out most of the Chalices against UW control since it's only good when set on 2 and it's hard to resolve that one early on for it to matter. Leyline and Bridge doesn't do much if anything against them so those cards are really bad here. A resolved PW threat tho, that they'll have trouble dealing with.


    You might be confusing Azorius Emeria Control with U/W Control. Both run the same colors but the first plays tapout with Sun Titans while the latter is definitely draw-go with a lot of cantrips and counterspells. Their basic count is also very high, running 5 minimum so Stone Rain can be good here though they do play Crucible. I agree Leyline is a dead card but Bridge definitely remains in as their only win-con is by attacking.

    Quote from Brightmist »
    Eldratron is slightly different tho as Chalice doesn't do almost anything against them except shutting down Expedition Map when dropped on 1 preboard. Best way to stop Eldratron from casting eldrazi is to keep them off colorless by hitting Mind Stone and Wastes with Blood Moon up. If we manage to keep them off their colorless, their only threats left are Karn, All is Dust and Walking Ballista and they can't really create a huge Walking Ballista if they're off Tron so it gives us enough time to stick in a threat and go to town with it here. If they get to lategame, they can still find and hard cast All is Dust or Karn and we lose on the spot pretty much. Sweepers are pretty good against Eldratron especially since Anger stops Matter Reshaper / Hangarback Walker shenanigans and Wrath of God kills all their board. Alternatively, you can go for Leyline/Ensnaring Bridge combination which should lock them out of the game unless they can deal with Bridge using Ratchet Bomb or Karn.


    Eldratron is just a nightmare since they attack from so many angles plus they just topdeck so much better in general. Even with adding scry, only games that were won were those where I got lucky enough to establish an early lock plus my opponent having mediocre draws.

    -----

    Anyway, took the list to a small 3 round event today to get some games in.

    Round 1 vs Affinity. Win 2-0
    Game 1 on the play. Both mull to 6. He keeps a mediocre hand but still vomits out a hand with memnites, ornithopters and a Ravager. Thankfully didn't see a Plating the next few draws and was able to resolve a Blood Moon and a Chalice for 2 in the next turn. He was drawing dead so was able to cast Ajani followed by Chandra to close.

    Game 2 was pretty much a non game for him. Opened with Leyline into a Stony Silence. Was able to combo off on turn 4.

    Round 2 vs Lantern. Win 2-1
    Game 1 on the play. Had the best hand possible for the matchup. Opened with Leyline into a T1 Chalice for 1. He scooped.

    Game 2 wasn't great. Opened with Leyline again but he had Ghoulcaller T1 into another Ghoulcaller + Pyxis T2. A lantern followed along with 2 Surgicals on my milled Chalice and Blood Moon. Sandbagging Chandra in hand but was kept off double red as he had Crucible lock.

    Game 3 was close. Again with the Leyline opening along with Stony Silence. Had an early Saheeli but was stopped few turns later by a pithing needle. Hardcasted SSG to start beats along with Felidar as well but he was able to find a Bridge later on to stabilize on 5 life. Both in topdeck mode as I'm searching for Wear // Tear while he looks for Pulse to handle my multiple resolved Stonys at that point. I eventually find the card for the win.

    Round 3 vs Eldratron. Lost 0-2
    Game 1 on the draw. Had the best possible combo hand. 2 Fetches, 2 SSG, 1 Felidar, 1 Saheeli, 1 Leyline. Doesn't matter when my opponent drops a T3 Karn.

    Game 2 was just as bad. Drops a Matter Reshaper which got Magma Jet but flipped to reveal another Reshaper. He drops TKS taking Saheeli. I draw and cast Wrath of God, his Reshaper revealing another Reshaper.. He casts Smasher followed by another Smasher the next turn all the while I'm wishing for Bridge to make an appearance.

    -----

    As predicted, Eldratron is still a nightmare as long as they have decent draws. We playtested the matchup a bit more but most games ended the same. Even with me having really good hands, only games that I won were when my opponent stumbled a few turns. Saheeli + Cat is definitely a value engine and I believe there's something here.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    While trying to figure out what deck to play to combat the prevalence of Spaghetti Monsters, Tron & U/W Control in my meta, I started tinkering with my Bridge Control list & came up with this strange monstrosity:



    The idea came when I was trying to figure out how to close games out a bit faster while a lock was on. Since Bridge Control ran such few threats plus with only temples as card filter, many games were lost due to not being able to draw into any threat fast enough. Since Nahiri + Emrakul is a nonbo with Bridge, Infinite Cats were the next best thing.

    Playtested a few rounds against different decks, came up with a few observations:

    • As long as we're careful on land drops & what to fetch, Blood Moon doesn't affect us
    • Creature removal from their side does come on but unless there isn't a Chalice in play, it doesn't really matter
    • T2 Saheeli is surprisingly decent, the scry effects helps immensely
    • Tron matchup still a nightmare but with the combo, able to steal games

    It's not all roses though, here's a few cons I noticed:

    • loss of Helix / Blessed Alliance leads to weaker Burn matchup barring no Chalice / Leyline in opening hand
    • Magma Jet is still only okay, most of the time goes to face just for the scry effect. Occasionally kills a creature.
    • U/W Control is still an uphill battle

    I'll still be testing this list for a while. Not going to take it to any competitive event as of yet until it's been put through it's paces.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on "What Deck Should I Play" thread
    @darksteel88

    I've dabbled with Lantern before and while I do like the deck, I don't think it's something I could pilot realistically for a long period of time without succumbing to either a migraine or misplay. Good suggestion though but still looking. Any other suggestions anyone?

    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on "What Deck Should I Play" thread
    Greetings everyone, hope everyone is doing well. Praying I get some good feedback / opinions.

    A bit of my Modern deck history:
    Started with G/W Hatebears for a few years and have been playing my pet R/W Prison deck since before Eldrazi Winter. You can say I lean into the Prison archetype a lot. I avoid Tier decks usually as a personal preference but have decent knowledge of every deck in the format barring the most budget or jankiest.

    While I like the deck, the frustrating lack of card filtering has led to one too many losses due to drawing badly. I'm well aware variance and luck is part of the game, I feel I could perform much better in competitive events if I piloted a deck that was more consistent. My meta has skewed more to Eldrazi & Tron variants along with U/W Control so my deck isn't going to perform well anyway.

    Any deck suggestions / feedback is greatly appreciated.


    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [Idea] Grand Architect
    One thing I've noticed since playing the deck is how important winning that die roll is. Unless the other player stumbles, it's a slog when on the draw.

    Regarding Quicksilver Fountain, if we don't cast it by turn 3 on the play, it's not going to hose anyone enough unless they're missing land drops.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Quote from BadMcFadden »
    Do people find this deck actually works more than 25% of the time? Because I've played a dozen or so games with it and have won maybe 2 or 3 while flopping in all sorts of spectacular fashions in the rest.

    In particular any deck with counterspells seems pretty much an auto-lose as you try to jam 4 mana planeswalkers while applying no pressure whatsoever and sitting on fists full of sweepers.

    Chalice of the Void has also not even come close to winning me a game whether played turn 1 or 2. I invalidate their fatal push and path to exiles which were already dead anyways. The best case scenario is to be on the play, pitch a guide and block some thoughtseizes. But those are the decks that can either abrupt decay the chalice if/when it matters or use something like collective brutality or liliana to turn the dead card into something useful anyways.

    just feels like there are an awful lot of dead cards from match to match, and even when you throw down the hammer with a turn 1 chalice/ turn 2 moon sometimes it just doesn't even matter. And in a lot of games 4 mana planeswalkers are just too slow when you have 0 blockers and limited interaction Frown



    You might just be having a string of bad luck. I've been playing the Bridge version for a year now and I've definitely accrued more wins than losses since. Granted, some decks are an uphill battle + variance screws us over like anyone else but I believe the deck has game against most of the format.

    Still, I understand your frustrations when the deck just refuses to work sometimes. Maybe try the Landkill or Bridge variant to see if they work better for you.


    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)


    Expensive Nevermore? Also looks like this is specifically aimed at As Foretold
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Quote from rob_zed »
    Is Goblin Dark-dwellers still in the running now that we lost the boom//bust synergy with the rules change? (cmc is now 8, not 2/6)


    Also wouldnt something like Assemble the Legion Luminarch Ascension or even Sigil of the empty throne be more reliable than approach of the second sun as win-cons? they dont read "win the game," but assemble actually wins faster, and provides some advantage in the meantime


    With the split card nerf, I don't think landkill will be anywhere near as good as it once was.. Sad day indeed.

    Assemble the Legion is the usual go to for a wincon in Bridge lists since 1/1 tokens easily attack under the bridge. I agree that AtL > Approach of the Second Sun in most cases, but then what if against any deck running counterspells? Just something to consider..
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Do we have any consistent wincons in a RW Planeswalkerlist with maindeck Bridge? I mean, even if we play Nahiri, we can't really go combat with Emrakul or Gideon :/


    Yeah, I've started using Runed Halo as it can also protect me from hard-to-handle creatures, as I'm only playing Anger as my only removal, and stopping other creatures (such as Goyfs) with Magus Smile

    Actually, I haven't been damaged that much by turn 1 discard on the draw. Maybe I just have a good matchup against Jund/Death's Shadow or I'm just lucky, but they rarely win against this kind of deck...


    My own list has 2 Ajani, 2 Chandra and 1 Assemble the Legion as the permanent wincons. Most of the time once a hardlock is set, opponent will just scoop.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Quote from drmarkb »
    Its not impossible, I also run Pillow Forts that can cast singleton Obliterates leaving a board full of Suppression Fields, Ghostly Prisons et al. That costs 8 and can come up with Nykthos and Karoo lands quite early. Enduring Ideal makes an SCG placing every few months (despite being played by very few people) and that costs 8. Technically you don't need multiple copies of this either, and trying to find other uses this could work with other "bad" cards like Shining shoal.
    Really though its main use would be in an environment where decks like Martyr Proc (not soul sisters) are top tier - resilient decks gaining an extraordinary amounts of life and repeatedly fog-ing/chomping whilst near uncounterably reanimating Martyrs or Fog Kamis. That environment is not Modern and likely will never be. You have to ask what problems does this card solve for a RW Prison, and the answer is probably "none". In fact this is probably better in a Martyr Proc style deck where they can get to 100 life and often not be able to close the game if its 6/6's Ascendants end up being Pathed.


    I'm not saying it would go well in every iteration of the R/W Prison shell.
    It could take the spot of AtL which is a 1 or 2 off in the Bridge lockdown lists. My reasoning would be that it provides the same inevitability & against blue decks, it's value would be higher due to how it's worded.

    Quote from janozimek »
    Huh? You don't need to cast them on the same turn.

    On a related note the wording is kinda weird. Is this thing practically uncounterable? It seems to be all cast triggers... I'm confused


    To my knowledge, it's not uncounterable. It's ability triggers upon casting so if it gets countered, the ability still happens if you cast a second one.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Approach of the second sun

    What's the consensus on this being an alternate win-con for Lockdown lists?

    The effect triggers on cast makes this worth some consideration, despite the hefty 7-mana cost
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    John Pellman
    31st place, SCG Columbus Modern Open
    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109492

    Congrats to him! Don't like the "Sun & Moon" deck name though. Hope it doesn't stick.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Took this list to a WMCQ just yesterday:

    I was expecting my meta to be filled with Aggro, Combo Aggro, Both flavors of Eldrazi (Tron + Aggro) so took drmarkb's list & tried to tweak it back to more creature hate list.
    Wish I could say I went well but went a disappointing 4-3. I'll briefly summarize the rounds played, forgot what I sideboarded in/out (just assume I sideboarded wrongly a card or two):

    Round 1 vs. Grixis Delver - Win
    G1:Runed Halo being an all star as always, stopping Tasigur & Gurmag Angler which beat me down to 1. He doesn't find his bolt. I land a Blood Moon, Chalice for 1 & ATL for the win.
    G2:He keeps a slow hand, open with Leyline, SSG into turn 1 Chalice, followed by Spellskite next turn. He counters my next few plays. Ajani resolves and opponent concedes once Ajani ults.

    Round 2 vs. Naya Burn/Zoo - Loss
    G1:I made a mistake assuming my opponent was playing his Zombie Aggro deck (I jokingly told him he was a sellout) so kept a hand with creature lock pieces. Needless to say, I lost quickly.
    G2:Slow hand but had Double Chalice, Helix, Timely so kept. Was able to draw out of his double revelry & eventually seal the deal.
    G3:Being on the draw makes sucks. He drops Swiftspear & Nacatl while throwing burn to the face. Was able to stabilize with creature lock pieces & an active Chandra but by then I was at 6 life. He has one card in hand which I know is a burn spell. A few turns of drawing & +0'ing Chandra doesn't get me Chalice, Leyline or any Life Gain spells and he eventually double burns me.

    Round 3 vs. Grishoalbrand - Loss
    G1:Knew what he was playing so Runed Halo'd Borbs Enraged & Griselbrand. Had an active ATL but he Breached Worldspine Wurm in. No creature lock in play so Trample tokens eventually finish me off.
    G2:I completely forgot about Goryo so didn't board in the grave hate. Active Chandra to try & dig for Bridge while Leyline, Prison, Chalice for 1 & 2 slows him down. He eventually splices Goryo 3 times to shoal & gets me with 3 Griselbrands. He did take 12 minutes for 1 turn (drew 21 cards) so I could call a judge for slow play but I knew it was quite complicated for him so I didn't.

    Round 4 vs. Abzan Coco - Loss
    G1:So far out of contention so didn't play as seriously. Kept a loose hand that couldn't stop him from comboing to infinite life. Had a bridge but wasn't going to wait for him to draw to 0 so next.
    G2:Same story & he goes off Turn 3 again.

    Round 5 vs. Leaver

    Round 6 vs. Abzan midrange - Win
    Notable shenanigans in Game 1: He collective brutalities with escalate, show 5 land hand with Bridge & Runed Halo. Eventually reach a point where he has no land with an active Liliana Last Hope ulti while I have ATL and Ajani Vengeant ticking back up. He concedes.

    Round 7 vs. Elves - Win
    No sage, No Gust, No Corrosion? No Problem

    Anyway, top 8 consisted of:
    Bant Knightfall w/ Spell Quellers - Winner
    Infect
    Boggles
    Amulet Titanshift
    Eldrazi Tron
    B/R Eldrazi
    Jeskai Ponza
    *Didn't see*

    I did see a deck that made top 8 that might spark some interest. R/W Ponza with blue splash. The last deck he played was the Blink Riders deck way back so this is a tweaked version I'm guessing. Couldn't remember the exact list but he did let me see his deck so based on what I saw:


    Maybe missing a spell (probably Landkill or burn) plus unsure of the number of Riders & Reveillark. I asked why the splash to which he replied "It's just for the card draw". Not sure if he just lucked out the whole day but he only lost a single round plus lost to Eldrazi Tron in the Quarters due to double magus taxing, not drawing his sixth land and opponent drawing himself out w/ Matter Reshaper sacs and Endbringer. What you guys think?


    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Hey there, newly joined but a longtime lurker of the prison decks in Modern.

    I've been using drmarkb's (much respect) R/W Bridge control list for some time & just wondering if there's an updated list.
    Tried the Landkill ver. of the deck a few months back to disastrous results. I pretty much went full tilt with landkill & shelved it. I'm sure the deck works for many others, just not for me.

    Anyway, just a few questions:

    1. I'm sure it's been mentioned before but wouldn't Magma Jet work extremely well in smoothing out the draws? Temple alone I feel isn't enough.
    2. Apart from ATL, Ajani, Needle Spires/Megaliths, Banefire, are there any other wincons that would work now? Other win-cons that have been mentioned before, assuming giving up bridges in some number:
    3. - Nahiri package
      - Resto-kiki package
      - Resto/Wall of Omens
      - Akroma
      - Batterskull
      - Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (late game lock protection)



    Posted in: Control
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