Decided I'd like to brew a bit more in the Pauper environment after thoroughly enjoying my first serious endeavor in crafting something playable that wasn't Delver. I'm seeking a little inspiration, my knowledge is mostly restrained to well established cards. I'm pretty familiar with the meta and conventional card choices of today's Pauper, and I think I've read every Modern legal card ever printed, but I didn't start seriously playing Magic until around Alara/Lorwyn period, so a lot of the more fringe build around cards from the Richard Garfield/Early Rosewater eras are unknown to me.
Any suggestions? I'd love to see some of the cards you think have potential, but haven't quite found a place.
Makes sense. Isn't there a UG split card of some sort that digs 5 deep for a dude? I can't remember the name. I agree with your arguments though for borborygmos over storm. I can also see why you just straight up don't need Mandrills especially since it doesn't do anything with Neoform. Like I said, my list was literally me in 5 minutes just coming up with a really rough draft. Is summoning trap worth it? Also Zacama? Is he better than Wurm? I guess the land untap ability is important to be able to Neoform again? I'm just not sure why I want to get him over borborygmos ever unless I need to beat like a revoker or needle effect
You're thinking of Incubation // Incongruity. Probably at home here, Removal casting mode is relevant sometimes as well, and unconditional removal that exiles is a healthy thing to have in any maindeck.
As a spoiled Modern player myself, I'd like some better lands honestly.
I'm of the opinion Cabal Coffers is a shoe in for MH1, and could be downshifted.
Sol Lands are also probably something Pauper and Modern don't need imho, but if it were to happen Crystal Vein seems perhaps tame enough for both, and would again, be a likely include for Modern to appease people who've been whining for a Sol Land. Could see a downshift there as well.
I'm almost certain you're trolling about at least a little bit for laughs based on your click-bait header and erratic, mostly incoherent, explanations backed with claims of impending bannings. But, jokes aside, this isn't a horrible idea, here's what i'd suggest;
I understand what you're attempting, and the combo itself has already proven itself in plenty of other shells. U/G isn't a bad color combination with access to a dig 5 with Incubation // Incongruity. We all know how powerful Ancient Stirrings is, this is as good as its going to get for a creature combo deck, though the lack of ability to hit lands does make it less powerful turn 1. The second mode is relevant interaction, and could actually be useful if you need to answer threats.
The hexproof creatures are insignificant, and could and should be a different one drop, probably 8 dorks, probably some combination of Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise. I assume they are here because you want to be able to drop them on t1 as sac fodder and not get bolted for your turn 2 setup. However, this is absolutely not worth running 8 creatures that are otherwise total bricks and provide no other value whatsoever.
White is doing minimal things for you with this list, could cut Vizier of Remedies entirely for Melira and focus on a better protected U/G plan with Spell Pierce/Dispel backup, similar to Infect. Eldritch Evolution is also worthy as Neoform 5-8, and is easily castable on t2 with dorks. Disrupting Shoal and Mutagenic Growth can answer removal while tapped out if need be.
I think an Idyllic Tutor package with Enchanted Evening and Ajani's Chosen has some sort of promise as a janky closer, but the cat's ability is not a may. You can use the combo to end the game on the spot, but will need something to abuse the ETB triggers, a-la Impact Tremors, but in whatever colors you choose.
All of these should be effective in non-creature builds as well. Special shout out to Heliod for preserving your Porphyry Nodes indefinitely even if he's the only creature in play. Note that if you decide on a Nodes build, some creatures are high value enough that they should be played, such as some number of Eidolon of Blossoms or a similar effect.
Perhaps something like Idyllic Tutor may be at home here? Its a staple in more traditional white pillow fort strategies. You could play Enchanted Evening as a 1 in this case, if you intend to go the prison route you aren't strapped for time to cast it. That would enable you to use it without diluting the probably more conventionally effective pillow fort strategy. The biggest issue with Enchanted Evening, and what you'll have to overcome to make this work, is that I feel its an inherently winmore card in nature for this shell. You never want to see it in your opener, as its a dead draw until deep into the game, and even when cast, its not an effect than ends the game on the spot or helps you further stabilize. In a lot of ways its a direct nonbo with typical enchantment prison cards in general. Another direction you could take is a creatureless prison with Porphyry Nodes over "heavy duty" 3 drops like Ghostly Prison, just to put it out there. Runed Halo is also another card typically heralded as solid in these decks.
Some advice; Its a hard road to make the Evening work here, but im certainly no stranger to pet cards, dont give up if its really something you find interesting.
I feel you're missing a way to really abuse Enchanted Evening. Frankly the card is not worth paying 5 for unless you are getting a lot of value out of it as a prison deck. Lands cantripping in the late game if your eidolons aren't removed is nice, but why not include some sort of more motivating reason to play the clunky 5 drop? Every other card in your deck for the most part is already an enchantment and receives no benefit, and you aren't using it to dissuade your opponent from doing anything by packing enchantment hate. As it stands, your namesake could be removed with minimal, arguably positive impact on success.
So, I'm reasonably sure these interactions work as I am envisioning it based on my knowledge of the rulings surrounding them and clone effects in general, but I'd like to make sure. Would really appreciate a confirmation from a more rules knowledgeable person.
Hi there, the concept of this deck is quite established in another thread called "dice factory". If you want to take a look, we also have a discord server where we discuss all the possible cards for our deck.
Here is a link to the disord if you want to: https://discord.gg/TZdy67
I've graced the thread before, and I don't think these two decks have the same goals. They utilize similar cards to generate mana, but end the game in completely different ways, and Dice Factory as far as i'm aware has never entertained any Infinite/Pseudo-Infinite backup plans outside of Paradox Engine. I would say that this was inspired more by Channeler/Karn + Dig Spells than the mana. The proposed build leans heavily on two cards that don't exist yet, and aren't discussed in current DF builds, so I felt it appropriate to give it its own thread. I think it would be incorrect to categorize all big mana artifact decks as dice factory, considering its history of mostly just building to abuse Wildfire. However, I think a bigger community with more ideas is a better place to foster brews, and would be more than happy to take builds there if welcome to.
Magistrate's Scepter seems quite good, Honestly I dont even think you'd need Paradox Engine to power it. The deck produces so much mana, and is more than capable of casting 3+ spells a turn that if we keep the Thoughtcast + Gambit +(?) Ancient Stirrings package. I think using smaller redundant artifacts we can find and drop for cheap that accelerate us like Voltaic Key might have the upper hand, but the engine can do some crazy things too. Engine would enable maindeck Walking Ballista to randomly win games by itself, not that it doesn't already in this shell. I just think it needs some generically powerful payoff cards that we can slam with our mana and always get value if we cant "combo". The new Karn, The Great Creator, Ugin, Old Karn, and big Eldrazi all seem like reasonable payoffs. Especially new karn with his ability to fetch Ensnaring Bridge from the board game 1, or Mycosynth Lattice to lock them out of the game, as this deck can often pay the 10. There's also that new land that proliferates for 4 which i could totally see being good here
Paradox Engine helps maximize Flux Channeler's ability to proliferate by meshing so well with not only Master Transmuter, but practically every other card in the deck. I generate the majority of my mana with nonland permanents and my wincons(magistate's scepter/myr turbine/any tezzeret) are nonland permanents, being able to untap them by casting a spell makes my chances of pulling off a game-winning combo(infinite turns, infinite myrs, infinite mana, infinite proliferation)/combos higher and more consistent. My version is more all-in on infinite turns, as i can continue digging for one of my main wincons.
The new karn is definitely testworthy. Have you tried it out yet with a silver bullet/prison sideboard to abuse?
It's been hard to test due his lack of printing as of yet, but i have plugged a few games with friends on Cockatrice with him. Really feels like a powerhouse. The Mycosynth combo is backbreaking and being able to get hosers game 1 against Phoenix and Dredge is really helpful. I think Paradox Engine and Master Transmuter are interesting pickups, but would worry about their consistency. How do they feel goldfishing? Any Idea what your turn average is undisrupted?
I've seen Curfew in Anti-Bogles sideboards, but i'm reluctant to go all-in on it since it doesn't really do the trick against go-wide, and my local meta is infested with it. I've seen Edicts do nothing against Bogles, too, since they often have a token or simply a non-pantsed Bogle to bounce. The only way edicts work is if you have a lot of them and use them as follow-up to a mini-boardwipe, and a mono blue deck doesn't have a mini-boardwipe. And too many decks which aren't even aggro have something to sac/pick as a curfew target (think Thraben Inspector in Boros and Tooth & Claw, Augur of Bolas in blue decks, hasty and ETB critters in Red and Green, Gary and Chittering Rats in black decks, Basking Rootwalla and Grave Scrabbler in madness / Tort/Ex, Icatian Javelineers in Rebels, or even just random undecosted dudes), and at the same time there are may matches where you really want to pick your target / targets for bounce (Atog , Gurmag Angler , Tireless Tribe , Wild Mongrel , whoever the goblins pump up with sledder/raider, Ghostly Flicker targets, Spore Frog, the Infect guy who's about to receive the pumps, etc.)
Withdraw, however, has been hilarious against most things, and Rushing River is there to step in when non-creature permanents are what's giving you trouble / you need more bounce. With Faerie Miscreant, Ninja, Spellstutter Sprite and Faerie Duelist in the deck, there's just no end to shennanigans with those two. You can even use either to save 2 guys from a Crypt Rats activation.
Sure if your local meta is rife with go wide, id agree, though i'd say you're overselling Curfew's downsides. The card is more than just a Vapor Snag, and if i wanted that effect i'd run Snag, and I do, snag is good. Being likely a blue tempo list and running creatures that minimize downside for a spell with both broad defensive, removal, and effect recursion applications for U is a nice package. The flexibility and cost are hard to beat, and i'd actually say its easier to maintain an empty edict prime boardstate playing blue-based Tempo against most decks that dont go wide. If you're using the card to recur a Spellstutter Sprite, Ninja of the Deep Hours, or Faerie Duelist, or save a dude, who cares what they're bouncing in some matchups? Its free tempo as long as they dont have etb payoffs.
Have you tried Curfew for bounce instead? At only U it seems extremely strong in Spellstutter lists, but really havent seen much of it at all. Its a pseudo edict effect in monoblue against decks like bogles, and a huge tempo positive play a lot of the time.
Combo decks usually like to have ways to search or dig for their combo pieces. How do you get the Channeler in the first place guys ? The deck does absolutely nothing if there's not the engine on board.
Actually I don't see the point of proliferation on anything else than the wincon itself. The rest should be cantrips and cards that find the combo pieces, no ?
Absolutely not. This deck doesnt need Flux Channeler to make a bunch of mana. Its more than capable of doing it without it, why play *****ty tutors for 1 card that we dont need? We could play dig spells that generate card advantage instead. Thoughtcast Tezzeret's Gambit Ancient Stirrings
All of these are much more synergistic with the artifact mana plan. 8 Divination effects refill on gas, 4 of which even proliferate without a Channeler in play. Thoughtcast is often U = Draw 2. Stirrings finds us land if we need it, even hitting payoffs like Karn or Ugin. The best part is, you can string them together, sometimes just casting 2-3 dig spells in a turn, letting you see more cards and fight disruption. And when you do have a Flux Channeler, they become exponentially better, sometimes becoming pseudo-free spells by adding to your mana reserves.
Between Mox Opal, Coretapper, Voltaic Key, Astral Cornucopia, Everflowing Chalice, etc, theres no shortage on mana generation redundancy. Flux Channeler is icing on the cake, the fuel for your busted draws which you'll eventually hit with 8 divinations. No need to dilute to push a clunky infinite combo plan. If anything, using these instead increases the effectiveness of the Channeler, giving you the gas you need to fuel its triggers. What does Neoform or Eldritch Evolution even do for us in a deck that asks we run as many noncreature spells as possible?
After some thought i'd say 100% that Karn, the Great Creator is the payoff we're looking for. We make mana, and a lot of it, Flux Channeler or otherwise. We can just make it faster with the channeler and have the potential to abuse counter based artifacts like Magistrate's Scepter, or Orochi Hatchery as mentioned above. The cards we should be searching for are more gas and our payoffs. Narrow tutors for cards we can play without dont help us see more cards or refill our hand. This allows us to have a backup plan, and more consistent hands, which leads to way more victories than hedging our bets on some 5 card combo that loses to Lightning Bolt. Being a big mana deck with access to the sideboard game 1 is strong, and better positioned to handle more meta threats.
Magistrate's Scepter seems quite good, Honestly I dont even think you'd need Paradox Engine to power it. The deck produces so much mana, and is more than capable of casting 3+ spells a turn that if we keep the Thoughtcast + Gambit +(?) Ancient Stirrings package. I think using smaller redundant artifacts we can find and drop for cheap that accelerate us like Voltaic Key might have the upper hand, but the engine can do some crazy things too. Engine would enable maindeck Walking Ballista to randomly win games by itself, not that it doesn't already in this shell. I just think it needs some generically powerful payoff cards that we can slam with our mana and always get value if we cant "combo". The new Karn, The Great Creator, Ugin, Old Karn, and big Eldrazi all seem like reasonable payoffs. Especially new karn with his ability to fetch Ensnaring Bridge from the board game 1, or Mycosynth Lattice to lock them out of the game, as this deck can often pay the 10. There's also that new land that proliferates for 4 which i could totally see being good here
Any suggestions? I'd love to see some of the cards you think have potential, but haven't quite found a place.
You're thinking of Incubation // Incongruity. Probably at home here, Removal casting mode is relevant sometimes as well, and unconditional removal that exiles is a healthy thing to have in any maindeck.
I'm of the opinion Cabal Coffers is a shoe in for MH1, and could be downshifted.
Sol Lands are also probably something Pauper and Modern don't need imho, but if it were to happen Crystal Vein seems perhaps tame enough for both, and would again, be a likely include for Modern to appease people who've been whining for a Sol Land. Could see a downshift there as well.
Other Lands that I think would be balanced and fun for Pauper, but I think are unlikely to be printed in MH1:
Ghost Town
Terrain Generator
Riftstone Portal
Archaeological Dig
Seaside Haven
Wirewood Lodge
Forbidding Watchtower
Desert
Karoo Cycle
Thalakos Lowlands Cycle
Arctic Flats Cycle
Tainted Peak/Tainted Wood, and not the others.
I understand what you're attempting, and the combo itself has already proven itself in plenty of other shells. U/G isn't a bad color combination with access to a dig 5 with Incubation // Incongruity. We all know how powerful Ancient Stirrings is, this is as good as its going to get for a creature combo deck, though the lack of ability to hit lands does make it less powerful turn 1. The second mode is relevant interaction, and could actually be useful if you need to answer threats.
The hexproof creatures are insignificant, and could and should be a different one drop, probably 8 dorks, probably some combination of Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise. I assume they are here because you want to be able to drop them on t1 as sac fodder and not get bolted for your turn 2 setup. However, this is absolutely not worth running 8 creatures that are otherwise total bricks and provide no other value whatsoever.
White is doing minimal things for you with this list, could cut Vizier of Remedies entirely for Melira and focus on a better protected U/G plan with Spell Pierce/Dispel backup, similar to Infect. Eldritch Evolution is also worthy as Neoform 5-8, and is easily castable on t2 with dorks. Disrupting Shoal and Mutagenic Growth can answer removal while tapped out if need be.
edit: card tagging
More generic wincons for enchantment prison decks might include:
Heliod, God of the Sun
Luminarch Ascension
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Enduring Ideal
Dovescape
Starfield of Nyx
Myth Realized
All of these should be effective in non-creature builds as well. Special shout out to Heliod for preserving your Porphyry Nodes indefinitely even if he's the only creature in play. Note that if you decide on a Nodes build, some creatures are high value enough that they should be played, such as some number of Eidolon of Blossoms or a similar effect.
Some advice; Its a hard road to make the Evening work here, but im certainly no stranger to pet cards, dont give up if its really something you find interesting.
edit: porp smorp nodes is hard to spell honestly
Thanks for your help!
Scenario 1:
I cast Spell Queller, exiling a spell from the stack. It resolves normally, exiling the spell.
I then cast Metamorphic Alteration, enchanting the aforementioned Spell Queller.
I choose any other creature, and my Spell Queller becomes a copy of it.
My opponent removes the Spell Queller, which is now copying something else, using, lets say Path to Exile.
They are unable to cast the spell originally exiled by Spell Queller due to Metamorphic Alteration.
Correct?
Scenario 2:
I cast Spell Queller, exiling a spell from the stack. It resolves normally, exiling the spell.
I then cast Metamorphic Alteration, enchanting the aforementioned Spell Queller.
I choose to have Spell Queller copy itself when prompted to choose a creature by Metamorphic Alteration.
My opponent removes the copy of Spell Queller, using, lets say Path to Exile.
Due to the rules surrounding copies and paired abilities from the original cards not linking, they are unable to cast the spell originally exiled by Spell Queller due to Metamorphic Alteration.
Correct?
Scenario 3:
I cast Spell Queller, exiling a spell from the stack. It resolves normally, exiling the spell.
I then cast Metamorphic Alteration, enchanting the aforementioned Spell Queller.
I choose any other creature, or Spell Queller itself.
I cast Mark of Eviction on my copy. During my upkeep, the Spell Queller, Mark of Eviction, and Metamorphic Alteration are returned to my hand simultaneously.
They are unable to cast the spell originally exiled by Spell Queller due to Metamorphic Alteration.
Correct?
I've graced the thread before, and I don't think these two decks have the same goals. They utilize similar cards to generate mana, but end the game in completely different ways, and Dice Factory as far as i'm aware has never entertained any Infinite/Pseudo-Infinite backup plans outside of Paradox Engine. I would say that this was inspired more by Channeler/Karn + Dig Spells than the mana. The proposed build leans heavily on two cards that don't exist yet, and aren't discussed in current DF builds, so I felt it appropriate to give it its own thread. I think it would be incorrect to categorize all big mana artifact decks as dice factory, considering its history of mostly just building to abuse Wildfire. However, I think a bigger community with more ideas is a better place to foster brews, and would be more than happy to take builds there if welcome to.
It's been hard to test due his lack of printing as of yet, but i have plugged a few games with friends on Cockatrice with him. Really feels like a powerhouse. The Mycosynth combo is backbreaking and being able to get hosers game 1 against Phoenix and Dredge is really helpful. I think Paradox Engine and Master Transmuter are interesting pickups, but would worry about their consistency. How do they feel goldfishing? Any Idea what your turn average is undisrupted?
Sure if your local meta is rife with go wide, id agree, though i'd say you're overselling Curfew's downsides. The card is more than just a Vapor Snag, and if i wanted that effect i'd run Snag, and I do, snag is good. Being likely a blue tempo list and running creatures that minimize downside for a spell with both broad defensive, removal, and effect recursion applications for U is a nice package. The flexibility and cost are hard to beat, and i'd actually say its easier to maintain an empty edict prime boardstate playing blue-based Tempo against most decks that dont go wide. If you're using the card to recur a Spellstutter Sprite, Ninja of the Deep Hours, or Faerie Duelist, or save a dude, who cares what they're bouncing in some matchups? Its free tempo as long as they dont have etb payoffs.
Maybe good enough for some monoblue lists. Minimalizes the impact of resolved cards like Gurmag Angler, Tireless Tribe, Stormbound Geist, Ulamog's Crusher, etc.
Overall a downgrade to Journey to Nowhere, but being in blue has its advantages with the strained manabases of pauper.
Have you tried Curfew for bounce instead? At only U it seems extremely strong in Spellstutter lists, but really havent seen much of it at all. Its a pseudo edict effect in monoblue against decks like bogles, and a huge tempo positive play a lot of the time.
Absolutely not. This deck doesnt need Flux Channeler to make a bunch of mana. Its more than capable of doing it without it, why play *****ty tutors for 1 card that we dont need? We could play dig spells that generate card advantage instead.
Thoughtcast
Tezzeret's Gambit
Ancient Stirrings
All of these are much more synergistic with the artifact mana plan. 8 Divination effects refill on gas, 4 of which even proliferate without a Channeler in play. Thoughtcast is often U = Draw 2. Stirrings finds us land if we need it, even hitting payoffs like Karn or Ugin. The best part is, you can string them together, sometimes just casting 2-3 dig spells in a turn, letting you see more cards and fight disruption. And when you do have a Flux Channeler, they become exponentially better, sometimes becoming pseudo-free spells by adding to your mana reserves.
Between Mox Opal, Coretapper, Voltaic Key, Astral Cornucopia, Everflowing Chalice, etc, theres no shortage on mana generation redundancy. Flux Channeler is icing on the cake, the fuel for your busted draws which you'll eventually hit with 8 divinations. No need to dilute to push a clunky infinite combo plan. If anything, using these instead increases the effectiveness of the Channeler, giving you the gas you need to fuel its triggers. What does Neoform or Eldritch Evolution even do for us in a deck that asks we run as many noncreature spells as possible?
After some thought i'd say 100% that Karn, the Great Creator is the payoff we're looking for. We make mana, and a lot of it, Flux Channeler or otherwise. We can just make it faster with the channeler and have the potential to abuse counter based artifacts like Magistrate's Scepter, or Orochi Hatchery as mentioned above. The cards we should be searching for are more gas and our payoffs. Narrow tutors for cards we can play without dont help us see more cards or refill our hand. This allows us to have a backup plan, and more consistent hands, which leads to way more victories than hedging our bets on some 5 card combo that loses to Lightning Bolt. Being a big mana deck with access to the sideboard game 1 is strong, and better positioned to handle more meta threats.