I'll see what I can do. I own most the cards I suggest but will probably wait to test in a RL environment. I might consider vengevine or Deus of calamity depending on how this fleshes out. Dead top decks are relative. A mana sink like Rhonas, treetop village, and adding in smugglers make dorks become more viable overall since the mana they produce can be used to fuel other spells/abilities.
A lot is relevant on the type of dorks in general and cards that you are playing. In the current build yeah your not getting too much out of just 4 dorks on a 20 to 22 count land base alongside the current creatures that this deck usually plays. Yes the 2 current 3cc drops that are most commonly played really aren't as relevant. However once Steel leaf comes out the appeal of dropping a nearly unconditional 5/4 that cant be blocked by chaff a turn earlier than normal becomes much greater.
When I suggested it last time that Noble Hierarch + Steel Leaf making it attack as a 6/5 on turn 3 is pretty relevant in a agro deck seeing as how unless they nuke the Noble Hierarch its very hard to deal with. I mean add in the amount of fetches and shocks other decks play and that could be anywhere from 3 to 6 damage they have already taken. Unless they path the Steel, they will be down 9 to 12 on the next turn. Add in whatever pump like blossoming or aspect and they are down 11/13 to 14/16 in the most optimum play on turn 3. Admittedly that's all hypothetical but as the most theoretical optimal play that's not bad.
I freely admit though that only plopping in 4 dorks will get you very little in the ways of consistency for turn 2 plays. You really want to average 6 to 8 to make those turn 2 plays possible and the other dorks you want would likely be Mystic elves or Llanowar Elves. 1 for every 10 cards would meet the minimum ratio you need to consistently pull the above plays off. While Bird may seem appealing initially they cannot directly attack like Hierarch can since they cant self buff when you need them to. Whereas Mystic/Lawnmowers have a base power toughness that allows you to poke slower developing opponents. Basically birds look good but cost resources if you actually need them to attack by themselves. If you cant afford Hierarchs a spread of 2/4 of the above elves would still leave relevant plays. Lets also not forget Pendelhaven if you decide to use the lower cost elves. It wont enter tapped and can make later game elves more consistent alongside a surprise pump you do first then one during the attack step.
Admittedly this would largely change the decks focus from a small creatures and +1 counter build to something currently different than what is played since the addition of dorks allows greater back end plays or changes the decks reliance on devotion. That and you want to hit 22 or 23 lands instead of lower land counts so if you do miss a land or a dork you still can play things either way.
eh 8, 3cc may be pushing it on 20 lands even with dorks. 6ish 3cc would probably flow better and result in less dead hands if a dork gets killed or you miss a land drop
Sorry, my mistake. I thought your post was asking for feedback and discussion, not just a pronouncement that your decisions are infalliable and an opportunity for you to sarc down anyone who dares suggest your decisions might not all have been the ideal ones. Thanks for blessing us with the perfect deck, and we might as well lock this thread now that it has been found and criticism of it will only be attacked with sarcasm.
Read your first sentences of each paragraph above ("So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument?"), and see why it comes off as snarky sarcasm and not a willingness to engage in actual discussion. I provided reasoning why I don't like to use those cards, I didn't sarcastally mock you for your ideas like you did for mine. But you had to drag us into the gutter so here we are.
After this I'm not going to respond about this anymore, but your original post basically said the idea was crap and should not be played in this deck and gave a theoretical example of a ultimately bad play on copter as why it shouldn't be played with a bunch of hand waving about taking out two cards that didn't even add to the devotion count and ruining the deck. That E1 was fully necessary and should never be changed or that in adding copter to balance out the cards that later on become less relevant was a bad idea. Or at least that's my interpretation of your post, I could very well be wrong. I did counter rebuttal alongside as giving relevant examples of other situations that can be just as relevant for copter inclusion and the reasoning behind it as well. I'll concede I probably was a bit snarky but every time somebody tries to suggest removing E1 or some other upgrade you kinda turn off as well, saying it wont work without any plan to test the changes to see if they wont.
@ lord
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk isn't bad but I think you would have to have gut shot in the deck so that on turn 1 you can alter it best, and while you can pump him and make him unblockable you have to do so in a very telegraphed way. Which Id rather see where you need to pump before I need to pump just because the ability is the way it is. Hitting it with a rancor is neat don't get me wrong but Id rather not just sit on it waiting for it, or waiting to hit somebody for it post turn 2. Maybe as a pair somewhere in a list but not as a 4 off.
My biggest point against E1 is that it seems you have to play around E1 or it wont work, and is a extremely bad top deck after turn 1. Narnam is basically add a few fetches to your deck, and hey he can be online as soon as turn 1 and later if they chump kill something or if they kill something of yours on your turn it still gets a +1. Avatar only counts the amount of creatures in play with a single 1/1 counter on them not the amount of 1/1 counters. Realistically how many times does E1 actually hit past being a 3/3? It doesn't even have much of a personal penetration aid and shrinks if you need to save it.
@thatmarkguy
So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? Its only a pair of cards and it replaces NOTHING else in the deck that gives devotion that would be in its way, alongside fixing a issue where late game one drops can be more relevant. I mean the reason death and taxes play it is pretty much the same since they can take a Thraben Inspector and copter away life without taking more relevant threats away from the planned goals.
And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument? How bout the aspect a flyer when they don't have any flying blocks argument as a counterpoint.
Well I've been thinking of Narnam Renegade instead of E1, cause getting it to 2/3 with revolt is much easier and the death touch is better later on if you need to chump a non killable fatty or a small annoying threat. That would save Avatar. Another thing I was thinking of is taking out the mainboard dismembers and adding in two smuggler's copter so that things like Narnam and dryad can do some more push later on and if need be some card filtering.
The new elf would of course go where Baloth is and I might add another Rhonas and trim down something for another since the new elf would auto awaken the Rhonas.
Eh I figured that it was too pushed to be anything other than rare really. Admittedly the CC will keep the price down since unless green gets a lot more goodies hitting GGG just for this will be fairly hard to get to. Unless a deck in standard can be built around this.
I personally would stop at 5cc creatures and not many of those even, if doing stompy. At 6cc your going a little too deep into midrange for my liking. I will say that the woodland bellower idea is interesting since you could pull any singleton in the deck 3cc or lower. Decent toolbox card if nothing else.
What? Rubbing your opponent the wrong way buying expensive cards?
I said ‘proponents’, not ‘opponents’.
Budget accessibility IS one of the selling (ha!) points of this deck
Yeah but your selling this deck like its a SET thing. Budget builds are fine but maybe explore stompy in a different direction? Maybe going into a midrange mono green stompy build with bigger back end than E1 and dryad could net more wins? There are other cards out there than E1 and dryad, sure they aren't as initially aggroy but some of the turn 3 plays on turn 2 are pretty damming to get rid of. I mean I though the whole idea for primers was to see what new sets offer and develop hopefully newer strategies that can compete with other decks?
I ask this, how many times recently has the current stompy build placed in top 15? or top 10?
The way we usually play Stompy he doesn’t show up on 2. Most builds in this thread don’t run any mana dorks at all. And once we start playing 1/1 creatures that don’t inherently get bigger we’re cutting into our relevant threat density.
Might change though considering this and a Noble Hierarch equals a 6/5 on turn 3 without mini blocks, add in aspect of hydra and it gets gruesome quickly.
Way too three drop heavy even with mana dorks. Also you need to hit a minimum 22 lands, and if you keep high end plays 23 would be better. Ghalta should only be run at 1 cause while he will win if he sticks he's definetly the win more variety of card and getting both in one hand would suck. 20 lands and tireless tracker don't work even with fetches and you wont be in a position to pop the clues when you need/want to since most of the time your mana will be tapped down from regular plays regardless. Cramming in coco like your trying might help, but coco really hates didlly creatures like dorks and hitting 4 mana would be hard to do with the setup.
So this set has both Llanowar Elves and a GGG 5/4 with upside ("Daunt"). For the longest time they've been playing the "We can't put Llanowar Elves in Standard" card because they didn't want people playing 3 drops on T2. So now not only are they doing away with the no-mana-dorks attitude - they're deliberately running it headfirst right at a super-pushed mono-green 3-cost beater.
And I say: bring it on.
I hope the Play Design group was finally able to convince Development that all the things Design fears about mana dorks are features, not bugs. But I could be wrong...
Basic Elvish Mystic and Llanowar Elves are fine especially since really they only produce 1 mana in one specific color. Its when you get into Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, and Deathrite Shaman where they do multiple things way more efficiently than other 1 drops that there becomes issues. That and the splash ability of the other cards helps more decks overall than just basic mana production. I semi doubt we will ever see a efficient flexible rare mana dork in the foreseeable future.
Well with the power level they have shown so far Memory lapse might be the better contender. The power level alone and the ability to draw upon removal from all the sets in magic history. I mean they could very well put in path to exile and O ring, considering that Conflux and Lorwyn respectively had that debut. That and serrated arrows was timeshifted already and redoing it again even when its reprint wasn't very used even in a limited environment. Heck Goblin war drums is pretty much making what they have used for years a redo so they could get the menace keyword on it.
When I suggested it last time that Noble Hierarch + Steel Leaf making it attack as a 6/5 on turn 3 is pretty relevant in a agro deck seeing as how unless they nuke the Noble Hierarch its very hard to deal with. I mean add in the amount of fetches and shocks other decks play and that could be anywhere from 3 to 6 damage they have already taken. Unless they path the Steel, they will be down 9 to 12 on the next turn. Add in whatever pump like blossoming or aspect and they are down 11/13 to 14/16 in the most optimum play on turn 3. Admittedly that's all hypothetical but as the most theoretical optimal play that's not bad.
I freely admit though that only plopping in 4 dorks will get you very little in the ways of consistency for turn 2 plays. You really want to average 6 to 8 to make those turn 2 plays possible and the other dorks you want would likely be Mystic elves or Llanowar Elves. 1 for every 10 cards would meet the minimum ratio you need to consistently pull the above plays off. While Bird may seem appealing initially they cannot directly attack like Hierarch can since they cant self buff when you need them to. Whereas Mystic/Lawnmowers have a base power toughness that allows you to poke slower developing opponents. Basically birds look good but cost resources if you actually need them to attack by themselves. If you cant afford Hierarchs a spread of 2/4 of the above elves would still leave relevant plays. Lets also not forget Pendelhaven if you decide to use the lower cost elves. It wont enter tapped and can make later game elves more consistent alongside a surprise pump you do first then one during the attack step.
Admittedly this would largely change the decks focus from a small creatures and +1 counter build to something currently different than what is played since the addition of dorks allows greater back end plays or changes the decks reliance on devotion. That and you want to hit 22 or 23 lands instead of lower land counts so if you do miss a land or a dork you still can play things either way.
After this I'm not going to respond about this anymore, but your original post basically said the idea was crap and should not be played in this deck and gave a theoretical example of a ultimately bad play on copter as why it shouldn't be played with a bunch of hand waving about taking out two cards that didn't even add to the devotion count and ruining the deck. That E1 was fully necessary and should never be changed or that in adding copter to balance out the cards that later on become less relevant was a bad idea. Or at least that's my interpretation of your post, I could very well be wrong. I did counter rebuttal alongside as giving relevant examples of other situations that can be just as relevant for copter inclusion and the reasoning behind it as well. I'll concede I probably was a bit snarky but every time somebody tries to suggest removing E1 or some other upgrade you kinda turn off as well, saying it wont work without any plan to test the changes to see if they wont.
@ lord
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk isn't bad but I think you would have to have gut shot in the deck so that on turn 1 you can alter it best, and while you can pump him and make him unblockable you have to do so in a very telegraphed way. Which Id rather see where you need to pump before I need to pump just because the ability is the way it is. Hitting it with a rancor is neat don't get me wrong but Id rather not just sit on it waiting for it, or waiting to hit somebody for it post turn 2. Maybe as a pair somewhere in a list but not as a 4 off.
So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? Its only a pair of cards and it replaces NOTHING else in the deck that gives devotion that would be in its way, alongside fixing a issue where late game one drops can be more relevant. I mean the reason death and taxes play it is pretty much the same since they can take a Thraben Inspector and copter away life without taking more relevant threats away from the planned goals.
And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument? How bout the aspect a flyer when they don't have any flying blocks argument as a counterpoint.
The new elf would of course go where Baloth is and I might add another Rhonas and trim down something for another since the new elf would auto awaken the Rhonas.
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Leatherback Baloth
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
Enchantment
4 Rancor
8 Forest
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
Artifact
2 Smuggler's Copter
Instant
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Aspect of Hydra
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Deglamer
1 Feed the Clan
2 Natural State
1 Pulse of Murasa
4 Fatal Push
Yeah but your selling this deck like its a SET thing. Budget builds are fine but maybe explore stompy in a different direction? Maybe going into a midrange mono green stompy build with bigger back end than E1 and dryad could net more wins? There are other cards out there than E1 and dryad, sure they aren't as initially aggroy but some of the turn 3 plays on turn 2 are pretty damming to get rid of. I mean I though the whole idea for primers was to see what new sets offer and develop hopefully newer strategies that can compete with other decks?
I ask this, how many times recently has the current stompy build placed in top 15? or top 10?
Way too three drop heavy even with mana dorks. Also you need to hit a minimum 22 lands, and if you keep high end plays 23 would be better. Ghalta should only be run at 1 cause while he will win if he sticks he's definetly the win more variety of card and getting both in one hand would suck. 20 lands and tireless tracker don't work even with fetches and you wont be in a position to pop the clues when you need/want to since most of the time your mana will be tapped down from regular plays regardless. Cramming in coco like your trying might help, but coco really hates didlly creatures like dorks and hitting 4 mana would be hard to do with the setup.
this might be more optimal
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Strangleroot Geist
2x Rhonas the Indomitable
4x Steel Leaf Champion
1x Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4x Rancor
3x Fatal push
3x Vines of Vastwood
4x Blooming Marsh
6x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Treetop Village
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Basic Elvish Mystic and Llanowar Elves are fine especially since really they only produce 1 mana in one specific color. Its when you get into Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, and Deathrite Shaman where they do multiple things way more efficiently than other 1 drops that there becomes issues. That and the splash ability of the other cards helps more decks overall than just basic mana production. I semi doubt we will ever see a efficient flexible rare mana dork in the foreseeable future.