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    posted a message on Why does God want us to worship Him?
    Quote from Dio
    I've read that heaven is just a place where there is joy, no pain and suffering, and you are always worshiping God. But why does an omnipotent, all loving God want us to worship him? I know he wants a family, but we don't worship our parents. Isn't there a way to love Him without worshiping Him?


    That version of Heaven does not do justice to what the actual state of affairs in Heaven will actually be. What that describes is not the role that human souls will have in Heaven, but rather one of the roles that the Choir of Angels currently has. It should be noted that a human soul does not become an Angel upon entering Heaven.

    Angels by and large do not have Free Will, except in a few notable instances (namely the highest ranked Angels in the Angelic Court). Thus why would a human soul which has free will suddenly give up that free will upon entering Heaven? That defeats the whole purpose of God creating us in his image in the first place (i.e. creating us with free will).

    Also, it is interesting to note, but I have heard romantic love described on many occasions as "Worshiping your lover" in fact there is a book in the Bible that draws this same analogy about the love of God for the Nation of Israel, that it is like the love of a Romantic Partner. In fact said book gets exceedingly graphic and has been heralded as a sexual manual on the same level as the Kama Sutra.

    Quote from Oldaughd
    Well, let’s look at what it would be like if religions didn’t require worship. Keep in mind the most important thing in, say, Christianity is that you never forsake the Holy Ghost. All else can be forgiven except for not believing. This is a good rule if you intend to keep people coming into the church, and giving the church money.


    Eh... actually that commandment means that you aren't allowed to Blaspheme the Name of God. Fortunately the Hebrews had a practical policy of never writing down the vowels in the name of God, and also never speaking the name aloud, so it is literally impossible to blaspheme the name of God in the modern age.

    Blaspheming the words "Holy Spirit" is way too easy and something that a radical Atheist Group has rallied people to attempt to do en masse, fortunately it is not something you can actually be damned to hell for all eternity, mainly because the concept of the Holy Spirit is a purely Post-Resurrection of Jesus concept. Yes I believe there is a trinity aspect to God, but the concepts of the Holy Spirit as it has come to be indoctrinated in the modern church is not something that existed during or prior to Jesus' life. There are only vague references to the concept known as the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament at best, and even vaguer references to the concept of the Son of God made manifest. So the concept of blaspheming either of these would have been a weird concept in the first century at best. Blaspheming the true name of God however would have been something people would have intrinsically recognized immediately.

    Oh and as a side note, Christians worship on Sunday because that is the day Jesus rose from the dead. Traditionally speaking however, the Sabbath Day of Rest is a combination of a Friday and a Saturday. Basically from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday. Sundown because the Hebrew day starts at Sundown, not in the morning.

    Quote from Oldaughd
    There is an explanation for why things happen. If the search for answers rolled over on its back every time someone said "God did it" we would still be living in caves surviving as food for micro organisms.


    A Miracle can and probably should be defined as a series of events for which there is no current plausible scientific explanation. Thus at the current time it would likely be reasonable to define the story that Northprophet describes as a Miracle. At least until a plausible scientific explanation can be provided. I mean can any of you explain how a person with no cartilage in their hips from the time they were a little kid, suddenly woke up one day and had cartilage in their hips? That defies my understanding of how biology works.

    As for the God of Gaps theory, that whole theory hinges upon the assumption that God never intended us to discover the methods he uses to accomplish his miracles. It could be that what science is observing is simply the method of creation and intervention that God chose to use. And that the term "Miracle" is simply an out of date term. Though I can't think of a better term for Creation. Science doesn't really do it justice seeing as how Science is not a term to describe the act of creation so much as it is a term to describe the observation and reproduction of the act of creation.

    Quote from Rufus_T_Firefly
    What benefit do you think God gets from these commandments? I think you have a very narrow understanding of the purpose of these commmandments.


    I dont think God gets any benefit because he isn't real. However, within a literary context, I was pointing out the reason why the character of God in the bible requires worship appears to be that he is jealous and egotistical. My basis for this was in the ten commandments that he laid down to his chosen people, a significant number of these divine commandments centred around people worshipping and honouring him for being great. That sounds fairly self-centred and egotistical and more like a spoiled child than a supreme being.


    Rufus, you said it yourself, the Israelites were YWHW's chosen people. He was to be their God. Now he cannot very well fulfill that role for his people if he allows them to worship other deities, now can he? That said however there are some key points in the Ten Commandments that bear scrutiny.

    the First Commandment is "You shall have no other gods (Before/Besides) me." The thing about this commandment, is the word for Before or Besides can be translated as either or. If it is translated as Before, it can be taken to mean that YWHW is to be the Chief God in the Israelite Pantheon, much the way that Zeus is the chief God in the Greek Pantheon. If it is however translated as Besides it means that YWHW is to be the ONLY God in the Israelite Pantheon. This translational issue is largely where the confusion stems from. But to make matters worse, the word used for God in many places in the Old Testament is a plural term, not a singular. So the question arises, how many Gods did the early Israelites actually have?

    The answer of course is that they were descended from Mesopotamians, and as such were polytheistic, not monotheistic. The God of Abraham, and thus the God of the Israelites is simply the personal God of Abraham's family, El Shaddai. El being a title used to refer to several of the Gods in the Ugaritic Religions of ancient Canaan/Mesopotamia. Shaddai probably being a personal name of said God (though that issue is subject to debate).

    Also, the Bible is very clear (at least the New Testament is), you are supposed to question Religious Authority. Jesus himself did it on a regular basis, as did the Apostles. Heck, in the Old Testament the Prophets also questioned Religious Authority quite frequently as well. Though in the Prophets case the Religious Authority they were questioning usually belonged to other religions.

    Quote from Oldaughd
    The bible was never meant to be read by the common man.


    That's complete bull hockey. In the first century A.D. people of common birth were expected to memorize the Old Testament word for word. The entire thing, not just segments, but the whole kit and kaboodle. Even going into the future people regularly memorized the Bible due to the fact that the printing press had yet to be invented. It was not until the printing press was invented that you saw a surge of people ceasing to memorize the Bible in large swaths.

    The fact of the matter is that today, people don't know the bible by wrote because of the fact that we have such easy access to the Bible. So the next time you sit there and think to yourself that the common man wasn't meant to read the Bible, you might stop and think to yourself instead that the common man used to take the time to actually memorize the Bible instead.

    Quote from pb4786
    I'm criticizing "God says tithe 10% bro." But you're so right (and so intelligent too!), I'm bigoted because I possess an opinion that differs from yours


    God in the guise of Jesus also says "Give unto Caesar what is due Caesar." In otherwords, If you tithe using Money made by the Federal Reserve, your wasting your time due to the fact that the money created by the Federal Reserve has ZERO Value other than what the Federal Reserve says its value is. Zeitgeist got a lot of stuff wrong, but it got that much right. Believe me or don't, but I can honestly say that God doesn't care about our money, he cares about us helping those less fortunate than ourselves.
    Posted in: Religion
  • 1

    posted a message on Rudest/worst MTG opponent you've ever played?
    I wanted to test a variant build of a burn deck I had come up with on MWS, I indicated I was doing testing on the "request for an opponent" banner. Anyways the opponent I ended up playing after noticing I was playing what he deemed an ordinary burn deck decided to extirpate on of my cards. In doing so he was able to see my Library. What he saw must not have pleased him. Cause after he stopped looking at my library he played some sort of proxy card from his hand that basically basically was named "**** Sucker" and had the rules text "Target player sucks his mothers ****!" how he came up with this particular insult I will never know. Suffice to say that he was the primary reason I vowed never to specifically state that I am testing a deck while looking for random opponents on MWS.

    If only I had Misdirect or Swerve or something like that in the deck that I was playing at the time XD

    Also, AoK, regarding your last comment... Gods that sucks... that is like the worst behavior that I have ever heard of at a Tournament. Please tell me that the Head Judge allowed you back into the tournament? Cause otherwise that would be really crappy.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • 2

    posted a message on Fundamentalist Christianity vs. Magic the Gathering
    I wasn't sure if this belonged in Debate or here in General Magic, so I decided to put this in General Magic. If I was wrong for doing so, one of the Mods or Admins, is more than welcome to move this to the correct location.

    I realize that most of these articles are really old, and that most of you have probably seen these articles before. But I have only just begun to see these articles between today and yesterday, and decided to write their authors some responses. I thought I would share those responses with you all.
    " circa 1999 to 2008">The following response is a response to the website Christian Answers to the New Age and its article on Magic the Gathering.
    I will pose the same question I have posed to everyone who uses verses from the Bible that claim that Magic and Divination are abominations to God. How do you explain the following verses:
    • Genesis 44:5 (Scrying / Divination practiced by Joseph)
    • Numbers 5:12 to 31 (Ritual Curse / Black Magic in the Tabernacle)
    • Numbers 27:21 (Urim Thumim / Divination)
    • 1st Samuel 28:6 (Urim Thumim / Divination)
    • Numbers 26:55 (casting of Lots to determine the Will of god / Divination)
    • Proverbs 16:33 (casting of Lots to determine the Will of God / Divination)
    • Proverbs 18:18 (casting of Lots to determine the will of God / Divination)
    • Daniel 5:11 (Daniels occupation as the Chief supervisor of the Magicians, Astrologers, Chaldeans, and Soothsayers)
    The players do not represent "Sorcerers" or "Wizards" in the traditional sense. They represent what are called "Planeswalkers" which are about as far above Wizards as humans are above single celled organisms, on the chain of what makes something a complex organism or not complex organism. Additionally the goal isn't to kill the opposing player. The Goal is to defeat the opposing player. To make them submit to your might. Planeswalkers do not kill each other lightly, they tend to prefer to test each others metal, to see who is stronger, without resorting to killing each other. And of course you would use a quote that quotes the most foul sounding card names possible… what about Serra Angel, or Angelic Voices or even "Spring of Eternal Peace" granted that probably wasn't printed yet when you wrote the article in question. But still it is an example of a nice card name.

    Actually Necromancy within the context of Magic the Gathering goes much further than simple communication with the dead… it is actually the act of Raising the dead back to life (or rather unlife, i.e. zombies, liches, and vampires).

    In all honesty, we should be interested in death, at least to the extent that we are not afraid of death, and actually embrace the fact that we are going to die. I do not understand this Christian obsession with not wanting to die, or with fearing death. It is silliness if you ask me.

    Sorcery is no less dangerous and no more moral than drugs; in fact, there is a long-time connection between the two.

    Actually there is a significant difference between the two. Drugs are dangerous to ones immediate health. "Sorcery" especially pretend sorcery is not. In point of fact, Magic the Gathering can be proven to be beneficial to ones psychological development!

    In point of fact, the word "Summon" has been taken off of the Magic the Gathering cards officially. Actually the act of playing a creature is simply referred to these days as "playing a creature" the only reference to summoning in the current game is in the words "Summoning sickness" which refers to the fact that a creature that has just been put into play cannot do anything until ones next upkeep. But beyond that archaic reference there is in fact no reference to Summoning in the game except on the oldest and out of print cards.

    consider God's words in Phil. 4:8 that tell us to dwell on what is true, honorable, pure and lovely.

    As I told someone else, there are ways to consider Magic the Gathering true, honorable, and lovely (not necessarily pure) as well as virtuous due to its nature as a teaching tool, as well as some of the art on some of the cards (which is sometimes exceedingly beautiful to contrast the "demonic" art you seem so hellbent on highlighting).

    Perhaps Christians should come up with a Role Playing Game that would be acceptable to their God, then if it does exceedingly well, we will see Christian players of Magic the Gathering and other "non-Christian" games turning away from those games in favor of a Christian game. But alas, Christians don't appear to be very creative in that regard do they?
    " circa 1999">This is a response to the article found at the Kjos Ministries Website by Berit Kjos detailing how he feels Magic and Pokemon are detrimental to the wellbeing of Children and how those Children should burn cards that are worth between 0.50 cents and 2,000 dollars...
    Isaiah 5:20 says absolutely nothing about Angels so do not even attempt to use it on me. Angels in magic the gathering are of the good law upholding variety most of the time. Well actually they are more representative of Angels found within early Mesopotamian Cultures. However I doubt you would be familiar with the Cherubim or Seraphim?

    Are you aware of the Occult practices found within Modern Christianity itself? The word Occult simply means "The Hidden Practices" it doesn't automatically mean "Mystical" or even "Mythical" practices such as those found in Gnosticism, or Polytheistic Religions. For example, the very concept of a "Mystery of Faith" can be described as an Occult belief, and Christianity is rife with "Mysteries of Faith" is it not? The Revelation of John itself is the most prominent example of an Occultic Book found within the Christian Bible. Take it as you will.

    If God does not contradict himself, then explain the following verses:
    • Genesis 44:5 (Scrying / Divination practiced by Joseph)
    • Numbers 5:12 to 31 (Ritual Curse / Black Magic in the Tabernacle)
    • Numbers 27:21 (Urim Thumim / Divination)
    • 1st Samuel 28:6 (Urim Thumim / Divination)
    • Numbers 26:55 (casting of Lots to determine the Will of god / Divination)
    • Proverbs 16:33 (casting of Lots to determine the Will of God / Divination)
    • Proverbs 18:18 (casting of Lots to determine the will of God / Divination)
    • Daniel 5:11 (Daniels occupation as the Chief supervisor of the Magicians, Astrologers, Chaldeans, and Soothsayers)
    Seems to me God, or at the least his followers, contradicted themselves / himself constantly during the Old Testament!

    Further, when a child says "I'll just use my psychic powers" in reference to the Pokemon video or card game, they are probably referencing the Abra line of Evolutionary Pokemon or other "Psychic" Pokemon, and not actual real life "Psychic Powers" that they might believe they have. And even if they were referring to themselves, I do not see the harm in pretending to have Psychic powers on the scale of the Pokemon… its no different from when a child pretends to have an imaginary friend, or are good Christian children forbidden to have those now as well?

    Soul Exchange does not feature spirits rising from the grave… it features Zombies rising from the grave… Additionally the text on the card reads as follows:

    As an additional cost to play Soul Exchange, remove a creature you control from the game.

    Return target creature card from your graveyard to play. Put a +2/+2 counter on that creature if the removed creature was a Thrull.

    Mind you, most "Thrull's" are black creatures… not White.

    As for those children's method of "Summoning" creatures… I think they totally misunderstood the purpose of the game… which is why I am totally against letting any child under the age of TWELVE play the game of Magic the Gathering, as I do not believe they have the mental maturity to understand the game. In fact its probably best if they wait till they are about 15 or 16 to start playing the game as well… cause I myself really didn't begin to understand how to play the game till I was about 15 or 16 years of age.

    I would advise you not to use a Psychologists "warning" in your essays as an attempt to discredit Role Playing. The reason is because Psychologists constantly use Role Playing as a means of furthering Psychotherapy. They view Role Playing as a GOOD thing, and as a very healthy means of expressing ones negative emotions in a manner that is productive and non-aggressive!

    You are aware that there are over 14,000 different tournament legal cards in the game of Magic the gathering? Do you realize how many different combinations of decks that can lead to? Granted many of these cards are not tournament worthy, however there are so many cards now that no one can possibly know what all of them do! That means repetitive cycles are really not as common in this day and age as you seem to think they are!

    What exactly is wrong with a "Dragon"???? Other of course than the Christian association of Dragons with the Devil… you do realize that the word we translate as Dragon in the New Testament probably means something entirely different in the original greek?

    "Whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - let your mind dwell on these things." (Philippians 4:7-8)
    Then we should be allowed to dwell on Magic the Gathering and other card games. For the simple reason that they possess the virtues of:
    1. allowing people who are introverted to make friends
    2. teaching people better math skills
    3. teaching team sportsmanship (see "Two Headed Giant tournaments" and other multi-player formats)
    4. they possess beautiful art (most of the time) thus are "lovely"
    5. many of the concepts are "noble" within the color of White, and Black, and Red (all 3 of which have "Knight's" within them).
    So yeah, these cards do conform in a manner of speaking to the verse you provided.
    " Circa 1995">This is a response to the Article found at Logos Resource Pages regarding the authors feelings that Magic is evil and the spawn of Satan, and that it should be burned...
    You claim that the Bible makes it clear that Occult practices are forbidden by Deuteronomy 18:10 to 12. Are you aware of the Occult practices found throughout the Bible?
    • Genesis 44:5 describes the use by Joseph and his household of the ancient Divination method known as Scrying.
    • Numbers 5:12 to 31 describes a Curse that a Priest was supposed to put on a woman should her husband suspect her of cheating on him!
    • The Urim and Thumim were two objects used in Ritual Divination within the Temple mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1st Samuel 28:6. Additionally to these standard Lots were thrown, both were randomized methods of determining the will of God, and the very etymology of Divination means "To Ask God."
    I would like to know your exact sources that cite the fact that either Dungeons and Dragons are used by people who practice the Occult as "tools" for the occult. They are both games, and although they are both enjoyed by people who practice what can be described as the Occult, they most certainly are not used ritualistically as tools of the occult… in fact many of my fellow Polytheists don't even play Magic the Gathering or Dungeons and Dragons, much less use them as Ritual tools. Additionally the closest I have come to using a Magic card as a ritual tool is using it as a book mark in one of my books on Polytheism.

    Additionally, you claim that your God hates Violence? What about the conquest of the Land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua… what about the battles of Saul, and David? Also, what about the bloody conflict between Christians and Islamic people known as the Crusades… or was that "Justified" war as so many Christians of that time period claimed… or are you going to claim that those people weren't really Christians?

    Also, in case you didn't know… the goal of Magic, symbolically is that it is a duel between 2 Planeswalkers. Planeswalkers are not wizards nor are they sorcerers. They are beyond petty levels of magic. They are nearly Gods in that as the Planeswalker Teferi said quite concisely "A planeswalker is Omnipotent, but only nearly Omniscentient" and they definitely are not Omnipresent. Now while it is possible to kill a Planeswalker, it is extremely difficult to do so. Games of Magic the Gathering are basically the real world equivalent to the storylines "Ritualized Duels" between 2 Planeswalkers. These duels do not result in the death of either Planeswalker unless the two planeswalkers agree otherwise prior to the duel. Rather they usually are the testing of the metal of each of the planeswalkers. They are a method of seeing how skilled two planeswalkers happen to be, and assessing the value of their own abilities. Nothing more and nothing less. The rules that came with the game in 1995 are quite a bit out of date storyline wise, and come from an era referred to in the Magic the Gathering community as the Pre-Revisionist era… Also black magic really won't kill your opponent in under 5 minutes, and red magic is a bit easy to slow down enough that it can't win a game at all.

    LOL Wiccans who play the game of Magic would be abhorred at hearing you compare the form of magic that they actually do practice to the form of magic practiced by "White Mages" in the game of Magic the Gathering… especially considering the flavor of the Magic of White is far more similar to the type of behavior typified by a fascist government or perhaps most similar to the Catholic Church during the period of the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions. In otherwords it is hardly about "Good Magic" and more about "The Good of the Many outweighs the Good of the One" taken to extremes not even imagined by the most fanatical of Socialist or Communists in the real world!

    Magic is a game aimed at 12 year olds and older. If a person has a kindergartener playing the game, and understanding the game… then they are really doing that child a disservice… either that or the child is a genius who should be pursuing other hobbies not this particular card game.

    In any case I seriously think you need to update your article as it does not reflect the modern game at all. You might even want to try to get new quotes or updated rules information….
    After emailing that to him, I decided to amend my information regarding Planeswalkers and sent him the following information as well:
    as an aside, Planeswalkers no longer are Omnipotent within the storyline. Nor are they Immortal. They lost those powers during what is called "the Mending" which was an attempt to save the Multiverse (Dominia) from utter destruction by a Planeswalker named Teferi, as well as his companions and 5 or 6 other Planeswalkers.

    Currently Planeswalkers have even more reason not to want to kill each other. First and foremost is that there are only about 7 known Planeswalkers, and of these Planeswalkers they are all mortal, and their spells take a lot out of them, especially planeswalking itself. So formal duels are much more formalized and thus even more rarely to the death than they used to be.
    It is telling that none of these authors has updated their information since they first published their pages (with the possible exception of the first one who has a copyright extending to the present day). Still the information on these three pages is woefully outdated.

    P.S. sorry to rant... but I have this issue of not liking being told what to believe or what to do... especially by Religious people.
    Posted in: Magic General
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