Just for the record, Ashiok is very likely based on Phobetor (Icelus) from Greek mythology. The god of nightmares, is the son of Nyx, and can appear in any guise. Seems likely.
I've moved on to 4c so I doubt I will be posting here anymore.
Good luck all.
I also will no longer be updating or posting in this thread. Other things (and decks) have caught my interest and have my full attention for now. So I will be asking a Mod to close this thread.
That doesn't mean this deck doesn't work, or that people watching should give up the idea. By all means, continue--perhaps the deck will get better (and it was decent to begin with). Thanks for all of the contributions throughout the thread though! You guys are amazing and getting this far could not have been done without you.
Here's the list I'm taking to an SCG IQ tomorrow. Any card advice?
Looks pretty solid. I would probably take out the Gloom Surgeons for some spot removal (Orzhov Charm) and take out the Nighthawks for Geist of Saint Traft. Otherwise, I think you're sitting pretty well. Good luck!
1) Do you think 2 or 3 Obzedat is better? I'm thinking of maybe pulling an Obzedat and a Midnight Haunting to throw in Liliana MB. Then possibly 2 Duress SB.
2) Thought on One Thousand Lashes as SB to deal with 'tusk/Reckoner?
3) What about Duress? Pointless with Nevermore in there?
That's ultimately up to you. I would run 3, personally. He's going to be your bomb and your anti-bomb, so he's fairly necessary. You could always pull a Midnight Haunting for the 1 Liliana though, if you so choose.
What made Pillory of the Sleepless so good in the old decks was that it was searchable and only cost 3. I would advise against it. Orzhov Charm and O-Rings will answer Reckoners effectively. Though you may consider Tragic Slips.
This is a tricky question. Nevermore is a sideboard card, pure and simple. However, when you sideboard, your opponent is sideboarding against you as well. So you should be using the Nevermore counter-actively, against their sideboarding. Duress may help with that, so it's a tough call. I would play at least 10-20 games as-is and see where to go from there.
I'm not sure if you guys have access to it, or if it was necessarily a tempo list, but Patrick Chapin just did a deck doctor on a BUG deck over on SCG. Sadly I don't have access to it myself, but figured it might be worth the discussion if someone can get a hold of it.
@szath-- If you're going Tokens, then your sideboard should be something closer to:
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Terminus
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursebreak/Ray of Revelation/Urgent Exorcism
3 Beckon Apparition
1 Blind Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
Or something there about. Explantions for this are as follows:
- Witchbane Orb is just good version control/walkers. Might even run 3 over the Needle.
- I understand that you're aggroish with tokens, but Terminus is necessary for those aggro decks. Or possibly Curse of Death's Hold. Terminus you could recover from because your Lingering Souls have flashback. It's up to you though.
- Liliana of the Veil normally doesn't come to mind in a token deck, but she's a great planeswalker and she can help out against Geists, Reckoners, and other creatures you'd have trouble against. Also, discarding is fun.
- Enchantment destruction for enchantments ran against you (Curse, Illness in the Ranks, etc.) Each one has its perks, I would personally suggest Cursebreak or Urgent Exorcism
- Beckon Apparition is graveyard hate and token generation. Pretty simple. Might also consider Rest in Peace
- Another Blind Obedience for those very, very aggressive decks.
- Pithing Needle isn't bad, but it may not necessarily be right for your deck. It does help with Planeswalkers though. Could be a third Witchbane Orb if you'd prefer.
I'm also not sure about Nevermore as a main deck card. You may put in the sideboard for some other good stuff (Lilianas, Beckons, etc.).
That should give you a general idea of where to go. You don't have to follow my instructions to the letter, but those kind of effects are going to help you in the long run.
If you notice, there is 63 cards main deck. The 3 lingering souls were not supposed to be there. I pulled them out of my sideboard the last second and accidentally put them into my deck instead of removing them entirely.
2-0 Naya Blitz
2-0 RDW
2-1 Jund
2-0 Aristocrats
My loss against jund consistend of me getting stuck on 3 lands. I'm not sure if I would had won anyways because his draw was pretty good. If you want me to record a game replay and upload it I probably can at request.
Any questions just ask.
Edit: I did a second daily and was 1-0 beating aristocrats. I played Esper my second match. I won 1-0 pretty easily, got to game two and was milled with him getting down to 2 life. I accidentally conceded the match instead of the game (I'm new to MTGO lol) and ragequit the tournament. I'll play a few today and post my results. I'm expecting 3-1's at the worst.
Excellent! Also, d'oh to the match concession, haha. I'll post your deck in the deck list since you won a daily (if you don't want me to, pm me) with it. Looks very solid though--and I'm pretty impressed that rotation won't really hurt you that bad.
Good job though. If I may suggest Witchbane Orbs. I don't know how bad you are against control normally (or if you stomp them) but Orbs against Adept+Drownyard is just downright cruel.
I'm of the Ghost Dad (now Orzhov Midrange) primer, and I'm actually running what's primarily an Esper Midrange deck. I've won a Game Day with it and a couple of FNMs; I think you should go check out my list.
As for this list, a couple of pointers:
-Delver is a great card, but you should take him out for more utility. Augur of Bolas is a great choice.
-Run a 4th Geist if you can get one. Most decks can't deal with him, at least not in Game 1.
-You can't have too much spot removal, really. Our color choice isn't as aggressive as Dega or as resilient as Junk, so I would suggest Ultimate Price, especially over Dissipate. Counters are great, but they're really made for more straight-up control.
-Get Supreme Verdicts/Terminus for your sideboard. You'll really need them. I run Verdicts personally, but Terminus is probably a smarter choice. Also Witchbane Orbs.
- Contaminated Ground is a cool card, but I would definitely run Blind Obedience over it (or O-Rings) if you're going to run another enchantment.
So I had an idea, but i am not sure if it'd be wise.
I was considering putting together a transformational sideboard for my necra zombie-dad list to turn it into a more traditional ghost-dad list. My conundrum is if i should make the mainboard the aggro and side the rampy lifegain. or vise versa. Or should I keep my anti-meta sideboard? As a note I will be going to a different and mostly unknown meta this week. The only decks I know will be there are 1 naya humies & golgari zombies [free fnm for the month]
My mainlist hasn't changed since I last posted it. [i took the 2 sorins back out and slapped the rancors back in].
The rampy lifegain would add a thrag, 4 resto's, 2 faithmenders, a third b.o., 3 pilgrims and 4 farseeks.
[sorry for lack of tags, not on a p.c. atm]
Thoughts?
I'm not knocking transformational sideboards (I faced one for the win in the Game Day tournament last weekend, it was nuts), but I've always found that it's best to err on the side of caution--that is, keep a sideboard that's wide and can handle multiple situations in the meta. Control's a thing, so you may want to run Witchbane Orbs. Blind Obedience might be nice for aggro. Terminus also for aggro. Etc. I mean, those specific cards may not make it into your list, but you get the idea. Just a personal thing, though.
@Smooth Criminal--If Alms Beast had flying, I might consider it. That's another reason I run them, for the evasion/flying block. Still, I guess it couldn't hurt to test them out.
So looking at the decklist I posted what would you cut/add if you wanted to stay Orzhov and not add a third color?
That's an excellent question, but I think first you need to decide: Are you running WB tokens, or WB midrange, or WB aggro, etc.?
If you're going tokens: -3 Ethereal Armor,-4 High Priest of Penance; +3 Midnight Haunting, +3 Vampire Nighthawk, +1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
My reason for these changes is that with tokens, the only enchantment you have that's doing work should be Intangible Virtue. Midnight Haunting can be an instant blocker/board changer if you need it to be. Vampire Nighthawk is a better creature than Penance for what you're wanting to do, and it kills GoST, which will give you a lot of trouble if you're only running WB. Another Sorin also helps with consistency. Your sideboard would need work, too, but I won't go into that until you decide what you want.
If you're going Midrange: -4 Doomed Traveler, -4 Intangible Virtue, -2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -3 Ethereal Armor, -2 Nevermore; +4 Thrull Parasite/Knight of Infamy, +3 Vampire Nighthawk, +2 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Ultimate Price/Victim of Night, +4 Restoration Angel/Sublime Archangel. You might also try Geralf's Messenger, and your sideboard of course would need work as well.
If you're going Aggro: refer to SpookyDoom's list. It's a much lower cost and more aggressive thing than what I could probably come up with at the moment.
But yes, at the end of the day, you must decide what kind of deck you want to run.
Victim of Night over Ultimate Price. Its BB vs 1B Victim hits almost all the problematic creatures except for Huntmaster and Olivia. Removing Zombies generally is just an attempt in futility.
If you can consistently hit that double black on turn 2, then VoN is probably the better choice. Plus you can still hit the Huntmaster while he's humanside-up.
Quote from szath »
So is the general consensus that I need to add a third color for this deck to be competitive?
Not necessarily, it depends on what you're wanting to run. BW zombies is fine. A pure Orzhov midrange deck /can/ do well, but will suffer for lack of options.
If you go green, you get tokens, Abrupt Decay (best removal point in standard at the moment), Thragtusk, Reanimation package, Centaur Healers, etc. Green has a lot of sustain to it with good creatures to back it up.
If you go red, you get burn, Boros Reckoner, Assemble the Legion, Boros Charm, best weenies in the format, Olivia, and Aurelia. Did I mention Boros Reckoner? Fire and a minotaur. Seems legit.
If you go blue, you get counterspells (if applicable), Geist of Saint Traft, Dungeon Geist, Augur of Bolas, Delver (if applicable), Supreme Verdict, cantrips, Azorius and Dimir charm. You won't get a whole lot in the way of creatures, but you basically get all the spells. Also, if you're wanting to run Ethereal Armor, GoST/Invisible Stalker are amazing choices. However, that would take your deck in a new direction that is neither here nor there.
High Priest of Penance is probably one of your 3 best 2-drops if you don't splash a 3rd color (which isn't saying a whole lot). It depends on what kind of offense you're looking for, really, and how much removal/control you want to back it up.
If you're still concerned about removing creatures, consider Grim-Grim. No seriously, you certainly have enough Spirit tokens to make him work and the Angel tokens can be used as well. DG is in no way as good as SA for your deck because it is that Angel that delivers the offensive punch that you need.
Turn 3 Souls, turn 4 SA: Swing with a 4/4 flyer.
Turn 3 GoST, turn 4 SA: Yes, Geist gets the exalted bonus even though the angel pops up: two 4/4s appear.
If your opponent runs bigger creatures, use more removal. But don't let your creatures do the removal. Have the removal do the removal. You've got great removal in your spells. The Geist is a 2/2 for four that locks down an opposing creature only for as long as it can remain on the board. That's total weak sauce and you know it.
You're not even reading my posts, apparently. I have no problem with aggression. I have no problem with offense. I'm not even going to address this anymore.
Quote from photodyer »
Valyon,
I'm new over here...I come from a long background of playing aggro and aggro/midrange. And I have to say, from an aggro player's perspective--you are running an aggro/control list. It is very much a Snapless Delver style, designed to protect you while you tamp down or remove threats so that your heavy hitters can get through. The majority of the cards in your list are designed to control the other guy's creatures...that's control. If you don't want to play control, then DG, Auger, LS, A Charm, FoD, SV, BlOb, DS and your removal suite don'g belong as they are control cards. GoST is definitely about aggression, and KoI is a great offensive tool, but the rest of your list is about dealing with the other guy's board so these beaters can get through.
Don't get me wrong--I think it's a strong list, and a friend at my LGS who taught me everything I know about aggro/control plays a list with many similarities to yours. But call a spade a spade...you can't say you don't want to play control when the majority of your list is about interacting with the opponent's creatures.
Control cards do not a control deck make. I understand I have "control" elements. I know what a kill spell is, and a denial spell, and etc. However, there is a supreme difference between a list like mine and say, Ben Stark's Pro Tour list (which is a pure control deck). So, you're right--it is what it is--and that is a midrange deck.
Can we at least agree that SA makes for a better 4 drop than DG? Especially since your 3 drop is either Lingering Soul or GoST?
There's nothing wrong with playing control; orzhov makes for a great control shell where you pay life for powerful effect. orzhov Charm is great instant speed removal. MD 4. Stabilize with Azorius C, Vault and Obzedat. I bet that with the right life gain support you could play it turn 2 against aggro.
No. Sublime is simply not better than DG in this build. DG allows me to keep large threats (and the ever-annoying Reckoner) locked down without consequence. Maybe in general, Sublime is better, but not for this deck. The only thing I'm looking for in a replacement is a tougher but with the same or better utility. My aggression is fine--I can take down any amount of lifegain an opponent has, with time.
I have nothing against control, but you've completely missed the point--this deck doesn't want to be control, and I don't want to play control. I'm not sure what you didn't understand about that.
I'll agree that Orzhov Charm is, well, arguably the best removal in standard outside of Abrupt Decay at the moment. 3 has served me fine as far as that goes. I don't have problems against aggro decks. I play O-Charm turn 2 against most aggro decks (Boros, RDW, BR) without much of a drawback, if any.
@Valyon: Do you really want Knight of Infamy? It seems as if Geist and Obzedat are your main wincons, why not use Sublime Archangel instead? This looks like an Esper control deck with Obzedat put in for the sake of stabilizing; I'd trade Dungeon Geists... for Feeling of Dread?
-3 Knight of Infamy, -4 Dungeon Geist; +3 Sublime Archangel, +1 Augur of Bolas, +3 Feeling of Dread
EDIT: Didn't see FoD in the mainboard, but my point stands. More removal/stallers... lifegain?
EDIT THE SECOND: How do you feel about a singleton copy of a Cipher 6 drop? Stolen Identity and Undercity Plague are the best ones anyhow, though SI does seem more productive in the late game.
Because Knight of Infamy is one of the best 2-drops in the format. I've never had a time when I wasn't glad to see him. He can make my Geist/Ob bigger, and block Geists/Reckoners/etc. all day.
Sublime Archangel is awesome, but she lacks any immediate utility unless I have a beater already online. I mean, it would be awesome landing her the turn after a GoST, but that doesn't always happen.
As to your first edit, if I wanted to play Control instead of Midrange, I'd play Control. This isn't control. As to the second, a card like that would be useless. At that cost I would rather have a board sweep/bomb. Both of the cards that you've mentioned are a waste of space in a deck like this. I'm not saying Cipher is bad, but it doesn't fit with my deck.
I'm basically going to keep DG for now until I see anything interesting out of Dragon's Maze.
@Prinny--My meta is aggro and midrange heavy. Otherwise you'd be right.
I also will no longer be updating or posting in this thread. Other things (and decks) have caught my interest and have my full attention for now. So I will be asking a Mod to close this thread.
That doesn't mean this deck doesn't work, or that people watching should give up the idea. By all means, continue--perhaps the deck will get better (and it was decent to begin with). Thanks for all of the contributions throughout the thread though! You guys are amazing and getting this far could not have been done without you.
"Corny exit line"
-Valyon
Looks pretty solid. I would probably take out the Gloom Surgeons for some spot removal (Orzhov Charm) and take out the Nighthawks for Geist of Saint Traft. Otherwise, I think you're sitting pretty well. Good luck!
That's ultimately up to you. I would run 3, personally. He's going to be your bomb and your anti-bomb, so he's fairly necessary. You could always pull a Midnight Haunting for the 1 Liliana though, if you so choose.
What made Pillory of the Sleepless so good in the old decks was that it was searchable and only cost 3. I would advise against it. Orzhov Charm and O-Rings will answer Reckoners effectively. Though you may consider Tragic Slips.
This is a tricky question. Nevermore is a sideboard card, pure and simple. However, when you sideboard, your opponent is sideboarding against you as well. So you should be using the Nevermore counter-actively, against their sideboarding. Duress may help with that, so it's a tough call. I would play at least 10-20 games as-is and see where to go from there.
@szath-- If you're going Tokens, then your sideboard should be something closer to:
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Terminus
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursebreak/Ray of Revelation/Urgent Exorcism
3 Beckon Apparition
1 Blind Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
Or something there about. Explantions for this are as follows:
- Witchbane Orb is just good version control/walkers. Might even run 3 over the Needle.
- I understand that you're aggroish with tokens, but Terminus is necessary for those aggro decks. Or possibly Curse of Death's Hold. Terminus you could recover from because your Lingering Souls have flashback. It's up to you though.
- Liliana of the Veil normally doesn't come to mind in a token deck, but she's a great planeswalker and she can help out against Geists, Reckoners, and other creatures you'd have trouble against. Also, discarding is fun.
- Enchantment destruction for enchantments ran against you (Curse, Illness in the Ranks, etc.) Each one has its perks, I would personally suggest Cursebreak or Urgent Exorcism
- Beckon Apparition is graveyard hate and token generation. Pretty simple. Might also consider Rest in Peace
- Another Blind Obedience for those very, very aggressive decks.
- Pithing Needle isn't bad, but it may not necessarily be right for your deck. It does help with Planeswalkers though. Could be a third Witchbane Orb if you'd prefer.
I'm also not sure about Nevermore as a main deck card. You may put in the sideboard for some other good stuff (Lilianas, Beckons, etc.).
That should give you a general idea of where to go. You don't have to follow my instructions to the letter, but those kind of effects are going to help you in the long run.
Good luck!
Excellent! Also, d'oh to the match concession, haha. I'll post your deck in the deck list since you won a daily (if you don't want me to, pm me) with it. Looks very solid though--and I'm pretty impressed that rotation won't really hurt you that bad.
Good job though. If I may suggest Witchbane Orbs. I don't know how bad you are against control normally (or if you stomp them) but Orbs against Adept+Drownyard is just downright cruel.
I'm of the Ghost Dad (now Orzhov Midrange) primer, and I'm actually running what's primarily an Esper Midrange deck. I've won a Game Day with it and a couple of FNMs; I think you should go check out my list.
As for this list, a couple of pointers:
-Delver is a great card, but you should take him out for more utility. Augur of Bolas is a great choice.
-Run a 4th Geist if you can get one. Most decks can't deal with him, at least not in Game 1.
-You can't have too much spot removal, really. Our color choice isn't as aggressive as Dega or as resilient as Junk, so I would suggest Ultimate Price, especially over Dissipate. Counters are great, but they're really made for more straight-up control.
-Get Supreme Verdicts/Terminus for your sideboard. You'll really need them. I run Verdicts personally, but Terminus is probably a smarter choice. Also Witchbane Orbs.
- Contaminated Ground is a cool card, but I would definitely run Blind Obedience over it (or O-Rings) if you're going to run another enchantment.
Esper Midrange is pretty fun though. Good luck!
I'm not knocking transformational sideboards (I faced one for the win in the Game Day tournament last weekend, it was nuts), but I've always found that it's best to err on the side of caution--that is, keep a sideboard that's wide and can handle multiple situations in the meta. Control's a thing, so you may want to run Witchbane Orbs. Blind Obedience might be nice for aggro. Terminus also for aggro. Etc. I mean, those specific cards may not make it into your list, but you get the idea. Just a personal thing, though.
@Smooth Criminal--If Alms Beast had flying, I might consider it. That's another reason I run them, for the evasion/flying block. Still, I guess it couldn't hurt to test them out.
Ah. Good catch. I don't play the guy or VoN, so I've had no moment where it's mattered to me. Herp-derp.
That's an excellent question, but I think first you need to decide: Are you running WB tokens, or WB midrange, or WB aggro, etc.?
If you're going tokens: -3 Ethereal Armor,-4 High Priest of Penance; +3 Midnight Haunting, +3 Vampire Nighthawk, +1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
My reason for these changes is that with tokens, the only enchantment you have that's doing work should be Intangible Virtue. Midnight Haunting can be an instant blocker/board changer if you need it to be. Vampire Nighthawk is a better creature than Penance for what you're wanting to do, and it kills GoST, which will give you a lot of trouble if you're only running WB. Another Sorin also helps with consistency. Your sideboard would need work, too, but I won't go into that until you decide what you want.
If you're going Midrange: -4 Doomed Traveler, -4 Intangible Virtue, -2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -3 Ethereal Armor, -2 Nevermore; +4 Thrull Parasite/Knight of Infamy, +3 Vampire Nighthawk, +2 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Ultimate Price/Victim of Night, +4 Restoration Angel/Sublime Archangel. You might also try Geralf's Messenger, and your sideboard of course would need work as well.
If you're going Aggro: refer to SpookyDoom's list. It's a much lower cost and more aggressive thing than what I could probably come up with at the moment.
But yes, at the end of the day, you must decide what kind of deck you want to run.
If you can consistently hit that double black on turn 2, then VoN is probably the better choice. Plus you can still hit the Huntmaster while he's humanside-up.
Not necessarily, it depends on what you're wanting to run. BW zombies is fine. A pure Orzhov midrange deck /can/ do well, but will suffer for lack of options.
If you go green, you get tokens, Abrupt Decay (best removal point in standard at the moment), Thragtusk, Reanimation package, Centaur Healers, etc. Green has a lot of sustain to it with good creatures to back it up.
If you go red, you get burn, Boros Reckoner, Assemble the Legion, Boros Charm, best weenies in the format, Olivia, and Aurelia. Did I mention Boros Reckoner? Fire and a minotaur. Seems legit.
If you go blue, you get counterspells (if applicable), Geist of Saint Traft, Dungeon Geist, Augur of Bolas, Delver (if applicable), Supreme Verdict, cantrips, Azorius and Dimir charm. You won't get a whole lot in the way of creatures, but you basically get all the spells. Also, if you're wanting to run Ethereal Armor, GoST/Invisible Stalker are amazing choices. However, that would take your deck in a new direction that is neither here nor there.
High Priest of Penance is probably one of your 3 best 2-drops if you don't splash a 3rd color (which isn't saying a whole lot). It depends on what kind of offense you're looking for, really, and how much removal/control you want to back it up.
You're not even reading my posts, apparently. I have no problem with aggression. I have no problem with offense. I'm not even going to address this anymore.
Control cards do not a control deck make. I understand I have "control" elements. I know what a kill spell is, and a denial spell, and etc. However, there is a supreme difference between a list like mine and say, Ben Stark's Pro Tour list (which is a pure control deck). So, you're right--it is what it is--and that is a midrange deck.
No. Sublime is simply not better than DG in this build. DG allows me to keep large threats (and the ever-annoying Reckoner) locked down without consequence. Maybe in general, Sublime is better, but not for this deck. The only thing I'm looking for in a replacement is a tougher but with the same or better utility. My aggression is fine--I can take down any amount of lifegain an opponent has, with time.
I have nothing against control, but you've completely missed the point--this deck doesn't want to be control, and I don't want to play control. I'm not sure what you didn't understand about that.
I'll agree that Orzhov Charm is, well, arguably the best removal in standard outside of Abrupt Decay at the moment. 3 has served me fine as far as that goes. I don't have problems against aggro decks. I play O-Charm turn 2 against most aggro decks (Boros, RDW, BR) without much of a drawback, if any.
Because Knight of Infamy is one of the best 2-drops in the format. I've never had a time when I wasn't glad to see him. He can make my Geist/Ob bigger, and block Geists/Reckoners/etc. all day.
Sublime Archangel is awesome, but she lacks any immediate utility unless I have a beater already online. I mean, it would be awesome landing her the turn after a GoST, but that doesn't always happen.
As to your first edit, if I wanted to play Control instead of Midrange, I'd play Control. This isn't control. As to the second, a card like that would be useless. At that cost I would rather have a board sweep/bomb. Both of the cards that you've mentioned are a waste of space in a deck like this. I'm not saying Cipher is bad, but it doesn't fit with my deck.
I'm basically going to keep DG for now until I see anything interesting out of Dragon's Maze.
@Prinny--My meta is aggro and midrange heavy. Otherwise you'd be right.