MTG Salvation

I must agree on the fact that I don't like the Multiverse becoming a sort of playground between Bolas and Ugin, it gives the feeling that among almost infinite planes there are only two major players... At this pace, one day we will discover that Bolas was the creator of old Phyrexia.

I can agree on the battle with the leviathan to be simply a Bolas' propaganda, however that battle left behind it a very tangible remnant: the Talon Gates, with are all that remains of the skeleton of the leviathan after Bolas devoured it. If this battle with Ugin on the meditation plane is real, does it mean that Bolas devoured Ugin's body and brought his skull with him on Madara?

I swear that for only new thing we learn on the past of Magic, we lost another that we already knew...

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Also, the "blast caused by Urza by detonating a magical device, that devastated Windgrace's people"? What? Looks like a retro-justification of the Windgrace acolytes...

The Sylex Blast transformed Urborg from a jungle in a swamp. From Invasion novel:

"The first had long been a resident of much-maligned Urborg, though he was no swamp-water snake. The panther warrior Lord Windgrace had lived on that isle when it had been a jungle mountaintop—before Argoth had sunk it. Though his land had died, Windgrace had remained. Though undead arose, Windgrace fought for the living. He remembered what Urborg had been and hoped to return it to its former state."

At least they already gave Aminatou a short bio... not even that for Estrid?

Tiro of Meletis, don't forget to change your signature!

Well, the fist act of Merrevia Sal was saying to the human hunters: "I am Merrevia Sal. Give me the meat, or I will kill you." I don't think she was such a good girl after all; if the actions of Bolas can be justified, so the killing of the dragon by the humans can. Yes, they maybe took things too far with creating a culture based after killing dragons, but after their first encounter was a violent one, they really haven't had a good reason not to kill dragons.

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Meh considering how much they whitewash Lili's crimes.... I doubt she will ever get a real punishment. Her taking out Demons or helping to take out Bolas is not a heroic act but I am sure they will paint is as such...yeah sure they are evil but Lili is only killing them cause she signed a deal, didn't read the terms, tried to get out of the deal by killing them. But hey she killed some bad beings after about two centuries of terror across the multiverse and feels bad for stabbing the Gatewatch in the back all can be forgiven.

Do you know the Kerrigan character from Starraft? She basically was a htbrid alien who started to interstellar wars, causing eight billions of death... in the end of the story she not only get away with her crimes, but even became a sort of demi-god...

Compared to her, Liliana is a lamb. T belive she won't get any retribution.

[quote from="The_FPS »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/794596-core-2019-general-discussion?comment=81"The story states that the that the death of Merrevia sal "smells like honey. Its sweetness is its power, although these hunters don't know that yet."
I wonder if this power can change the hunters (whatever race they may have been) into the viashino. They have some power over dragons and seem to be a hunter type race.

Alos, I think it is strange that there are two elder dragons that did not hatch. This will come back in the story later. The impact of Bolas contemplating "'Which death is worse?' he asks. 'Never to waken, or to waken and live your few moments in a frenzy of fear and fighting?'" could have been accomplished with just one.[/quote]

To me the power released by the Elder Dragons during death is a reference to both Piru (whose power was stolen by Geyadrone Dihada after being killed by Dakkon) and Chromium Rhuell (was life force was used in the Summit of the Null Moon by Tevesh Szat, Farlayn and Leshrac to break the Shard and flee to Shandalar).

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Equilorians are my favourite people from Magic! They, they'll return... you'll see! (If Elder Dragons did it, why not Equilorians?)

By the way, it is specified the plane were the Elder Dragons were "spawned" was Dominaria? I didn't read it.

Would you mind if they came back as Villains? Some human villains might be a nice change of pace.

No it just says not Tarkir. So the default assumption is Dominaria. [/quote]

Well, when Urza warned about Phyrexia, they almost laugh to its face, seeing they have no enemies, and if they can only be found only if they so desire. They basically put Urza and Yawgmoth to shame, so they would be a really powerful and intriguing villain (if their power is still up after the Mending...)

Quote from AUTUMNTWILIGHT »

I am talking about on Dominaria.

Also Equilorians wow is that a deep dive into irrelevance.

Equilorians are my favourite people from Magic! They, they'll return... you'll see! (If Elder Dragons did it, why not Equilorians?)

By the way, it is specified the plane were the Elder Dragons were "spawned" was Dominaria? I didn't read it.

Quote from AUTUMNTWILIGHT »

So were those hunters humans...I thought Elder Dragons were older then Humans....and they already have armored horses and domesticated dogs apparently.

Humans seem to be once again the dominant species.
If we consider the Equilorians humans (at Urza's and Xantcha's eyes they appeared so), they started their ascension 100,000 years ago, when Bolas was only a thought in the mind of the Ur-Dragon.

Quote from Xeruh »

I mean, honestly she feels like Sarkhan to me, just Green not Red. Not a great PoV and goals that are maybe on some level understandable but also very much works as a villain.


Though other than killing hunters I’m not sure how Vivien would be a villain. She doesn’t hate humans. She hates poachers/people killing for purposes other than survival.

"Hate" maybe not, but she makes her absolute *disdain* for humanity very clear.

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Eh, Vivien is really a strange character. Killing and fighting shouldn't be against green color, since they are basically an inescapable part of life. I think that Garruk (before his corruption) incarnated better the green color.

Nobody is complaining that Vivien doesn't embody Green. The problem is that she's A) an exceptionally unlikeable POV character, B) pure wasted potential since she could be an awesome Green villain.

Viv is an absolute piece of trash. Throughout the guide she looks down on people trying to defend themselves. This is a plane where monsters constantly kill people, and she's upset that humans kill monsters, mostly in self defense. Basically what I expected from the lady who destroyed an entire city just to free a dinosaur. She's a monster.

Theros lacks even the faintest hint of such a theme.

Not true, part of the original block's theme was to contrast the poleis with the dangers of the wilds. Monstruous versus heroic, after all. Hell, the main villain is the wilderness combo while Elspeth is the color of civilisation.

Umm. I can see both points here but again Vivien doesn't seem even ok with hunters even selling what could be life-giving animal byproducts and meat to folks. Luca might be more grounded.

Did you read it?

Yes, and unlike you I don't ignore everything but the last few paragraphs.

Trophy hunting is among humanity's greatest cruelties, so there's a twisted justice to a monster that collects trophies from humans (though I'm sure the Ikorians wouldn't see the humor).

Monster hunters have many stories of fallen comrades who killed their quarry only to have it rise and exact its revenge. Though the tales are horrifying, at least they all have happy endings (from my perspective, anyway).

Personally, I hope that the citizens may one day return to the ways of their ancestors, learning to live alongside monsters as partners instead of enemies.

Don't at me if you're going to defend a psycho.

And personally I think (for fiction) an eco-terrorist can be excellent as a hero or villain depending on the story and world.

Yes, but said characters are better done with nuance. Vivien is is vegans what the New Warriors are to non-binary people.

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Quote from 5colors »

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How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.

Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.

Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.

And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.

:/

I also don't know anyone who actively wants nonhumans who would be honestly satisfied with someone like Nissa or Nahiri. Call them what you want, I'm never going to look at a human with off-colour skin or a mild prosthetic and think "Yes, this is exactly what I was after". If your character can disguise themselves as a human by putting on a hat, they're not nonhuman.

The other issue is how background they are. Ajani is one of their premiere nonhuman characters (or so they tell us), and yet he spent most of the Bolas arc completely absent and WotS relegated to cheerleading from the sidelines, despite being the one with the most direct, hands-on Bolas experience. Then Theros came around, where he had several good story hooks, and he gets completely ignored, even when Elspeth starts doing the exact thing he was doing when last we left. Again - this is one of their main nonhuman characters.

This is the issue with arguing against the request for more nonhumans by just presenting "the list" - it assumes all we're asking for are useless background faces who do nothing but wave every now and then to let us know they're still there. If they're really lucky they'll get a line of dialogue or two to support the great and amazing human heroes.

If you don't understand the complaint, that's fine. I know that it's weird, I know that it goes against all common knowledge, I know that it's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't share it. If you want to understand it, great. Try to talk out your points properly, we'll do the same, and we'll all be better off for it. If you don't want to understand, that's okay too. No one cares about absolutely everything, and I know you can't force yourself to care about something that's just not that big a deal to you. I'm the same way (I just do not care who Chandra wants to smooch). But you can't have it both ways. If you don't want to understand the complaint (and again, it's fine if that's the case, honestly not trying to be passive aggressive here), don't try telling us why it's actually wrong and they actually are giving us what we want, it's just our fault for not seeing it.

Quote from 5colors »

Quote from Mullerornis »

How does that math even make sense? Most planeswalker characters are human or transhuman.

Thank for asking I realized I counted wrong so here is my recount. I'm going by what Wizards comments seem to indicate what they consider non-human walkers. Personally I'd go by what a walkers creature card type they most likely have/what their DnD character profile would be. Also not counting Ashiok or Wanderer since we don't know what they are. Wanderer most likely is human but creative might try to pull a twist or something so I personally don't count them in either totals.

Currently there are 55 walkers on cards (not counting Urza in the unset) with Calix as the newest. For the hair splitter we have the naturally non human walkers with Bolas, Ugin, Ajani, Nissa, Karn, Tamiyo, Dovin, Angrath, Vraska, Nahiri, Kiora, Daretti, Wrenn, Windgrace, Freyalsie, Xenagos and Oko with totals 17 which ~ 30% of walkers on their own.

And sadly of those, Ugin and Bolas are out of commission and Xenagos, Freyalise and Windgrace are all dead.

:/

We got a story summary;
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/theros-beyond-death-story-summary-2020-01-10
My big take ways

-I wish we got a something more for this, this story looks awesome and would love to seen the mythology of the plane full explained

-The titans are indeed "real" while the gods where later born of mortal players for protection. This defiantly sets up that the current gods wound't have known about the titans and Klothys.

-Klothys is stuck in the underworld as the seal on the titans and it does look more like set up for Theros 3

-Gods damnit Ashiok is going to go learn about Phyrexians.

-The story suggests all the demigods where dead heros the gods raised into something more

-Heliod starts the war between the gods which leads to the drifts opening up

-Calix bit is puzzling and maybe dumb. Looks like somehow he or Klothys magic where able to give him a spark. Though it dose seem to have to do with him being made to fetch Elspeth back to the underworld.

-I have no idea what they are going with with Erabos. First he's like original greek hades and more neutral except when it comes to those who try to escape the underworld. Then he pulls the BS deal with Elspeth over Daxos. Then we get the blurb that he's basically pop culture petty tyrannical hades. And how after all this he gives Elspeth his gratitude and lets her leave for helping subdue Heliod?

-Overall this wasn't the best for vorthos at all. The cards telling a story is fine enough but its the extra details that not only gives context and such but there are just some little things they can't put down unless we get a war of the spark like set where every card is a story moment.


EDIT: Also some of the minor gods got epithets;

Kruphix Far-Seeing
Mogis Rage- Crowned

I really wish we had another set with the other minor gods, maybe their demigods and more titans.

Also Phenax was mortal once too, idk if they will expand on that but as Kruphix said maybe Phenax himself might have forgot this fact himself.

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Hello all,

Can anyone confirm for me what happened to Dovin Baan, and whether Kaya can now planeswalk with non-walkers?

I saw it mentioned in the original synopsis, but it seemed to have limited info. I don't know if Dovin is dead-dead, or 'dead . . . . ? '.

Thanks in advance.

Dovin is dead dead. Killed on screen and his body was found by a reliable narrator.

Kaya can planeswalk with essentially anyone. It's just 'harder'. This is part of her ghost power. Which is bull because Jaya straight up tells her before she tries that even ghosts die in the blind eternities.

These are the two worst developments to come out of Forsaken. I don't know why these are glossed over and the status of ships is hotly discussed.

Mostly what Ree Wicker already said, so no use in retreading that ground.

As for the Kaya plot point, can't speak for Weisman, but other writers seem tired with the post-mending limitations.

Negatives:
Venser tried inventing a plane-traveling ship like the Weatherlight to help rescue Mirrans, but he died before he could complete his work.
The Weatherlight is essentially landlocked on Dominaria and can't be used for its intended purpose.
The portals that connected Wildfire - Rabiah - Dominaria for travel and commerce no longer work.

Positives:
Nicol Bolas's Lazotep Gateway
Jiang and his dog Mowu
Kaya and Rat

Because you fall in one of two camps for planar travel:
1) Post-mending
2) Pre-mending

Personal headcanon: The mending is unraveling and that the efforts that took place to fix it were merely a temporary solution.

I personally have my bias and fall in the pre-mending category. Because the stories told then are impossible feats now, like the story of Belbe for example from the Phyrexia arc can never happen. You don't get a moving piece like the artwork for Belbe's Portal in a post-mending world for non-walkers when the default answer is to make everyone a walker.

That the only way they could even come close to this same type of storytelling was when Dack Fayden couldn't walk away when the Immortal Sun was active which resulted in his untimely death.

If the rules of the mending become so screwed up that it effectively undoes it, I'm all for that. The mending was always a mistake, from the start, it ruined Magic story's most unique facet, the Planeswalkers. Instead of focusing on plane bound characters that could only go to other planes with help from magical machines and planeswalkers, with those planeswalkers being larger than life demi gods looming over the story and occasionally interacting in cool ways, we've gone to focusing on planeswalkers all the time but taking away most of what made them a cool concept. When most planeswalkers are no different than any other regular character then they just aren't any more interesting than any other regular character, because being able to hop planes was never the interesting thing about planeswalkers (especially when the planes are usually just worlds of hats). In fact, it makes them LESS interesting than other characters, because they have an innate bug out button they can push when ***** goes sideways, whereas plane bound characters are much more invested in and connected to their planes, and thus face higher stakes and more compelling motivations.

As a side note, the world of hats model combined with following neowalkers around everywhere has had the effect of making the multiverse seem much smaller. When the world of hats model started pre mending, each world was occupied by unique characters you were just meeting and would leave when you left the world. There could be some connections to other worlds via planeswalkers, like Karn on Mirrodin or Bolas being involved with Kamigawa, but again those connections involved god like figures who were for the most part in the background. The result was that the worlds felt truly cut off from each other, even when we had the Weatherlight and planar portals, because without those contrivances we weren't following characters from plane to plane (Weatherlight again is the major exception, but that was basically putting a crew on the Enterprise). With neowalkers, you just have superheros that you follow from story to story, so when they hop from Ixalan to Innistrad to Kaladesh you don't get the feel that they are going to different universes, but just different continents on the same world that have different kinds of magic. Typing it out right now, I realize that the only difference between a story where Ixalan, Kaladesh, Tarkir, Theros and Innistrad are different worlds vs one where they are distant continents on the same world is that the former actually has LESS potential, because if they were on the same world you'd be able to set up a story where all those places find each other and interact.

But yeah, rambling aside, the god like immortal shapeshifting (often mad) beings that were oldwalkers were always more interesting than the superhero neowalkers. We already had superhero type characters in the old story, they were just plane bound characters. Oldwalkers were something that tied Magic closer to fantasy and gave Magic something that other properties didn't have. Neowalkers just don't stand out from the crowd, which is why the Gatewatch was immediately, derisively, and correctly labeled the Jacetus League. And all this was supposedly done so that the story could focus on the characters and spin better stories than in the past. Well, after almost 15 years I'd say that's failed miserably. Nothing that's been put out since then has been as good as the Thran, Kamigawa, Urza's Saga, or even the pretty paint by numbers Weatherlight saga or the intentionally pulpy Ravnica block. There's been a few great web stories, but overall the arcs have been pretty meh. And that's just quality, the creativity has been way down as well. The most outside the box flat out awesome thing has been Bolas' eternals plot, which can be described as a dragon wizard enslaves an Egypt plane to farm warriors to turn into zombies with which to attack a city world via stargate. Unfortunately, it falls apart for being a letdown in practice and serving the ultimate and tired motivation of Bolas wants to nom nom nom sparks so he can become a god like being again, which is honestly why I was rooting for him to succeed because its almost like meta commentary that Bolas realized how much neowalkers sucked and wanted to kill them off as a concept so Oldwalkers could come back. Compare that to the insanity of Invasion, which featured as a subplot 9 insane god wizards strapping into mechs to nuke Robot Hell with a bomb powered by the souls of gods. That's so over the top 90's metal its a statue of Jack Black made out of 70's vans with murals painted on their sides. I'd rather see confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scourge than confusing cluster****s that shred the continuity like Scars of Mirrodin, because at least the former is a weird mescaline trip while the latter is some banal nonsense.