I feel the need to point out, that I understand we are bad against linear decks, but Infect isn't one of them. It's actually one of the better match ups. Or at least it used to be a few years ago when it was played before the meta shift. It just requires a slight change to how your play. It's not about racing them, but consistently hitting them while holding blocks back and playing the counterspell game with removal and Vines. Strangleroot in particular is a great creature to hold back.
Additionally, regarding Sir Faren, the Hengehammer, using him might require keeping Rancor in the list as it is the safest way to pump his power. It's a continual bonus that will apply to two creatures. Which means you might keep going with the 3-drop list. While the alternative 2-drop top-end list wouldn't really use him because of the compound changes to other cards.
I've also been wondering, whether the latter list couldn't drop a land or two below 20 given the less need for 3 lands. Which itself would open more space for more 1 drops? Maybe?
It is looking increasingly likely that Stompy will have two definitive lists to tinker with depending on which style of beatdown you'd want to go with. Low-curve and Aspect finisher or slightly less low curve and punch through.
Looking back at this deck now that the bannings have taken place and the metagame has shifted to be a little bit slower. YouTube dropped this video in my recommendations. The deck is based on the previous meta and looks sub optimal in a few ways, (Noble Hierarch?), but having watched the matches, one change seemed worth trying out and testing.
There are other changes that I see the standard Stompy deck making that might mean this change wont work so well, like dropping Steel Leaf Champion in favor of lowering the average casting cost of the deck. Not running Barkhide Troll as it was recording before M20 releasing. Running 6 Canopy lands, which seems was a short lived fad if this thread is any indication.
But I'm curious if Aspect of Hydra replacing Rancor is a viable strategy, given how often Aspect can close the game and Rancor doesn't have the same large bodies it needs to help punch through.
So can someone tell me what the plan is or line of thinking, as to when you try to stick a gearhulk in the control mirrors? I am awful at the mirror match. I'm aware that you never want to be the one who starts being the aggressor but does that mean you just hold the Gearhulk?
That's a hard question to ask because there really is no set answer. I mean there's the easy situations, when they tap out on their turn for starters. But for not so straight forward situations it is almost a game of poker. You have to read your opponents play to figure if they have the counter in hand. Or test the waters with a Glimmer or two (not always an indicator), play to try and run them out of cards, or as a 6 mana counterspell.
The best plan you can make ahead of time is get as many lands on the board as possible and go from there. The general rule of thumb is, don't try to go first. Exceptions for a EOT turn 4 Glimmer or a turn 6 Dragonmaster Outcast.
Of course, it's also not as difficult as it sounds. We don't run as many counters as control decks of formats past. My current configuration of the deck only runs 8 and 2 of those are Censor. Running them out of counterspells will be easier, though Abrade could be considered a psuedo counterspell, if only because you do get to flash something back.
Got second place on Game Day. Was worried about Ramanap Red, but it didn't show up. Beat Zombies in a tight game that was only tight cause I got mana screwed, but stabilized at 2 life. Beat R/W midrange aggro. And G/B energy. Drew into top 4. Beat R/G Pummeler then lost to the same G/B energy in the finals, or rather lost to my missing early land drops and couldn't pull back into the game when I finally did get them.
I put in more removal against the red decks, but they really worked out in all the games really. I like this main deck a lot. Sideboard needs work. Never got matched up against one of the control decks so Negates and Dragonmasters never came in. And no red so no reason to bring in the Familiar.
What about a more basic answer to Ranunap Red? One of the top performing U/R decks ran sideboard Pia Nalaar and deck of other types I've seen run Filigree Familiar. It may put us off a full control plan, but speedbumps with upsides are good speed bumps to have. Lifegain, kill a creature and draw a card. All seem good alongside some cheap removal to stem the bleeding until you can take control of the game.
Also, what do you all think of Savage Alliance? Damo da Rosa ran a pair in his sideboard for the mirror. It hits most of their drops, plus one of anything bigger with escalate. Not great in other match ups, but something to know it's there.
I went to Wednesday standard at my local store and decided to try out this piece of tech. Unfortunately the store only had one Dampening Pulse. Still, there was a 4-color Saheli deck there and we got matched up in the final round. I won the first game handily thanks to a slow draw on his part. Game 2 I was under the gun facing a Felidar Guardian and two Whirler Virtuosos. Then I drew the one Dampening Pulse. He was tapped out and I dropped it. I still had to worry about Virtuoso beatdowns at 10 life, but I got 10 extra turns I wouldn't have otherwise and won the game thanks to it. There was a point he had the combo on the board for two turns and it meant nothing. It is the real deal.
I don't think it will work against Jeskai Saheli, but I was worried about the 4-color variant because I figured I couldn't side out as much creature removal and Dispels wouldn't help as much. But this card really eases up on the sideboard decisions.
I won a Aether Revolt Game Day with a slight variation with this and top 4'd a store $500 store credit tournament. Would have been in the finals, but I misplayed in the final game of the semi-final match repeatedly and it cost me.
Horribly Awry is so goddamn useful. It hits nearly everything in the format and is a must play against G/B either energy or delirium. Even in matchups where I side it out like Jeskai Saheli, it can be useful in game 1 catching a Guardian or a Spell Queller. It only misses the Gearhulks, by which time you should have the resources to deal with them.
As for how I deal with green Gearhulks, if one does land, Brutal Expulsion is so useful. It doesn't look like much on paper, but seeing the card in action, it feels like the missing piece of the puzzle for the U/R version. Bouncing a Gearhulk on their turn can set them back enough to get another shot at taking it out or give you that extra turn to win. And in other aggro match ups it takes care of Scrapheap Scroungers while two for oneing your opponent. It also deals with the Saheli combo all by itself meaning Shock isn't as necessary and I'm free to better utilize Galvanic Bombardment. I used to run Leave in the Dust to deal with on the board Gearhulks, because it drew a card and could hit problematic plansewalkers in a pinch. It was good, but Brutal Expulsion does that and grant on board extra value.
I used to run 26 lands, but I kept flooding out after I had stabilized the board. It happened just enough times that I went down to 25 and so far the change has worked out really well.
I also prefer Take Inventory over Anticipate, because in the late game against control it fills your hand back up. This is true of any game that goes long. And the trade off of instant speed to hold up a counterspell isn't much. You do have to learn the flow of various matches if you should cast it early on or just hold it for when you have many. It took a while to learn, but once I did the downside feels even less relevant.
Has anyone tested Kitchen Finks in the board? It seems like it could be very effective in grindier matches and is more proactive than Feed the Clan vs Burn.
I know it gets smaller when it dies, but it's still really nice to have a removal-reailient creature that gains life and gives devotion.
There's about 200 pages of lists with it in the sideboard in this thread. I personally felt it wasn't as versatile as Spike Feeder, both in the burn matchup and others, but it worked for a lot of people. Though if you do go a two color/revolt route, it's going to be too small and only offset the land pain. I think Feed the Clan is going to be more necessary because of the bigger life boost.
@Rezin90 The deck did have some game a few months ago. Still has some game against some decks, Infect for instance, I think is our best match up. But then the meta shifted and our worst match ups and match ups that didn't exist popped up and they could disrupt us better than we could beat them. I've never won against Valakut. The 6/6 is bigger than Dismember can deal with and it's difficult to race. Never played U/W control, but Jeskai just kicks my ass because their disruption is good early game and then they overrun with card advantage. Jund though is 50/50. It's a fun match up, but you have to be on the ball as it devolves in a psudeo mix of poker and chess and you try and out maneuver their board and try and read what they have in hand with the occasional subtle bluff.
The conversation going on in this thread now is see what the new cards offer themselves and as an opportunity to change how the deck is built. Narnam Renegade and Greenwheel Liberator are pushing towards the inclusion of fetch lands to trigger them and the possibility of a slight splash for card to aid in the bad match ups. White and Black seem to be the leaders, but there was a post with some interesting ideas for a red splash instead.
In short, no the deck is not well positioned at all right now, but that could change on the 20th with Aether Revolt and the bans.
Tron is abyssmal pre-Aether Revolt. We'll see what happens with the new cards and potential splashes people are trying. As for Grixies, I've never had too much a problem when I play against it. Blossoming Defense has really helped with the match up and playing more main deck along with Vines means that Fatal Push won't be too much of a problem.
Yeah, but maybe I'm biased because gy hate is not that useful in my meta.
A more general list should be running scooze instead of Liberators, an 1 or 2 dryads instead of elephants.
I have to say after some tests that I'm not sure about the other cards but Narnam Renegade is just bonkers, 1-drop that swings for 2, trades with almost everything, stalls every 2/x, evolves E1 to 3/3, buffs Avatar. It's the perfect 1-drop we've been waiting for. We just need to adapt the deck to be able to use it.
The way I see it, if you're going hard on the fetches (~8x) to trigger revolt then Blood Moon is already going to be a pain... and you're also getting drained by them and any potential Dismember, as mentioned above. You could sneak in 1-2 Temple Garden and mitigate this life-loss by replacing Dismember with Path to Exile. After just 1 draw there's a 75-80% chance of having at least 1 white source with that setup. So you end up with
+ more life
+ better removal spell (that hoses one of the deck's hardest counter - Wurmcoil Engine)
+ potential for Stony Silence, etc. sideboard options as discussed on previous pages.
- slightly more awful Blood Moon experience.
- sometimes mana issues.
I know people aren't fond of splashing but it seems like the framework has already been set up with the revolt cards, and neglecting a splash (even just a lil one like this) could constitute wasted potential and make the deck weaker overall.
I've brought this line of thinking up a few times in previous pages and no one every follows up to discover if it works or not. There ends up being a point where green devotion is more than just a mechanic.
The truth of the matter is, some of our worst match ups that we don't have any answers to become supremely workable with access to just a few white cards. Path to Exile is one, which also doubles in making several other match ups better by not having to negotiate creature size. And in a few cases would have helped get out of mana screw. Additionally, the best tool I can find to fight Tron is Gaddock Teeg. Everything else just doesn't have game against it. Also, Affinity is hell on Stompy as the mass removal in green is just too expensive and they dump too much on the board to use targeted removal. White has a bounty of cheep hozers from Stony Silence to Kataki, War's Wage. And Rest in Peace will out do anything mono green could muster against graveyard strategies in sheer efficiency. You might not get the up sides of a huge creature or drawing a card with Relic of Progenitus, but that isn't necessary.
Those 5 cards are the only ones I can think of that I'd even want to splash for. They fix a bunch of holes in the deck's game, at least theoretically, and don't hinder the main plan of the decks. I could understand that it does go against one of the original ethos of this deck being an affordable alternative for Modern, but if you want to be competitive, I think that ship has sailed.
Everyone keeps bringing up Blood Moon and I don't get how that affects this deck so much. Even if they spend a turn cutting off one land on the board, at most, we get an extra turn of beats. It honestly seems like a dead card in the match up as is. I understand how it is devastating to many decks in Modern, I just don't see how it affects this one. Please explain to me how if I'm wrong.
In looking over the cards that Aether Revolt gives us, I'm not feeling the Greenwheel Liberator. Yeah it's big if you trigger revolt, but my problem is it still dies to Bolt. That's where I think Greenbelt Rampager is better. It's got a similar body to Leatherback Baloth, but without the intensive requirement. Don't knock being able to spread that cost over several turns. But it also interacts with other cards already in our deck. It can trigger Experiment One multiple times which seems to be have been forgotten in the last few pages. It can also help with the Narnam Renegade revolt. If anything I think the deck could work out by lowering the overall casting cost.
Also, discussion of Rishkar, Peema Renegade kind of disappeared. It seems like an interesting idea for growth and utility.
As for Aspect of Hyrda, it may not be as explosive in the lower casting cost, but I've always felt that as long as I was beating out Giant Growth, whatever I got was fine. Though if testing shows it to be turning the other way, maybe it should be dropped. Achieving +3/+3 to me is the minimum baseline.
Actually I quite like the zoo match up if they don't draw the nuts. If both players draw decent hands, our deck is much more consistent and doesn't lose as much life.
I agree with this. Zoo is kind of 60/40 in favor of us. In my local meta, I'd say Eldrazi, Living End and Skred are the worst match ups. A bit of struggle too w/ Merfolk and Elves.
Living End? Living End is one of our better match ups. It just requires changing how you play slightly. Don't over commit. Two creatures and pump spells are enough pressure with all the fetches and shocks. Get Dryad Militant or Scavenging Ooze on the board to ease up the graveyard and hold onto Baloths for after the Living End. I've had players end up using Living End as a wrath effect only for my to drop Baloths on them and then having to wrath again. After the first time I played against it, I've never lost.
I don't have the cards to try it out myself, but I think we actually have a way to make this deck work by splashing white. With 4 Temple Gardens and 4 Windswept Heaths you have the based. Path to Exile instead of Dismember practically fixes the Tron match up to even and means some amount can stay in against burn. Then you have sideboard options of Rest in Peace, Gaddock Teeg, Stony Silence, Kataki, War's Wage. I feel like easy access to those silver bullets help with our worst match ups while leaving the base strategy unchanged.
This actually seems reasonable and its something that can be tried now.
I've also been wondering, whether the latter list couldn't drop a land or two below 20 given the less need for 3 lands. Which itself would open more space for more 1 drops? Maybe?
It is looking increasingly likely that Stompy will have two definitive lists to tinker with depending on which style of beatdown you'd want to go with. Low-curve and Aspect finisher or slightly less low curve and punch through.
Instead of choosing between Aspect of Hydra and Blossoming Defense as the flex slot, it drops Rancor completely and runs a full compliment of Aspects and still has room for Blossoming Defense as Vines 5 through 6.
There are other changes that I see the standard Stompy deck making that might mean this change wont work so well, like dropping Steel Leaf Champion in favor of lowering the average casting cost of the deck. Not running Barkhide Troll as it was recording before M20 releasing. Running 6 Canopy lands, which seems was a short lived fad if this thread is any indication.
But I'm curious if Aspect of Hydra replacing Rancor is a viable strategy, given how often Aspect can close the game and Rancor doesn't have the same large bodies it needs to help punch through.
That's a hard question to ask because there really is no set answer. I mean there's the easy situations, when they tap out on their turn for starters. But for not so straight forward situations it is almost a game of poker. You have to read your opponents play to figure if they have the counter in hand. Or test the waters with a Glimmer or two (not always an indicator), play to try and run them out of cards, or as a 6 mana counterspell.
The best plan you can make ahead of time is get as many lands on the board as possible and go from there. The general rule of thumb is, don't try to go first. Exceptions for a EOT turn 4 Glimmer or a turn 6 Dragonmaster Outcast.
Of course, it's also not as difficult as it sounds. We don't run as many counters as control decks of formats past. My current configuration of the deck only runs 8 and 2 of those are Censor. Running them out of counterspells will be easier, though Abrade could be considered a psuedo counterspell, if only because you do get to flash something back.
4x Torrential Gearhulk
Spells (30)
4x Glimmer of Genius
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Magma Spray
3x Abrade
3x Sweltering Suns
3x Censor
2x Disallow
2x Essence Scatter
2x Supreme Will
2x Hieroglyphic Illumination
1x Hour of Devastation
4x Wandering Fumerole
4x Spirebluff Canal
4x Aether Hub
5x Mountain
9x Island
3x Thing in the Ice
3x Whirler Virtuoso
3x Negate
2x Dragonmaster Outcast
2x Hour of Devastation
1x Chandra's Defeat
1x Filigree Familiar
I put in more removal against the red decks, but they really worked out in all the games really. I like this main deck a lot. Sideboard needs work. Never got matched up against one of the control decks so Negates and Dragonmasters never came in. And no red so no reason to bring in the Familiar.
Also, what do you all think of Savage Alliance? Damo da Rosa ran a pair in his sideboard for the mirror. It hits most of their drops, plus one of anything bigger with escalate. Not great in other match ups, but something to know it's there.
I don't think it will work against Jeskai Saheli, but I was worried about the 4-color variant because I figured I couldn't side out as much creature removal and Dispels wouldn't help as much. But this card really eases up on the sideboard decisions.
9x Island
4x Mountain
4x Wandering Fumerole
4x Spirebluff Canal
4x Aether Hub
Creature (4)
4x Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jack, Unraveler of Secrets
Artifact (2)
2x Dynavolt Tower
4x Take Inventory
4x Glimmer of Genius
4x Galvanic Bombardment
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Disallow
3x Negate
2x Horribly Awry
2x Brutal Expulsion
1x Confirm Suspicions
3x Thing in the Ice
3x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Horribly Awry
2x Dragonmaster Outcast
2x Release the Gremlins
2x Incendiary Flow
1x Shock
I won a Aether Revolt Game Day with a slight variation with this and top 4'd a store $500 store credit tournament. Would have been in the finals, but I misplayed in the final game of the semi-final match repeatedly and it cost me.
Horribly Awry is so goddamn useful. It hits nearly everything in the format and is a must play against G/B either energy or delirium. Even in matchups where I side it out like Jeskai Saheli, it can be useful in game 1 catching a Guardian or a Spell Queller. It only misses the Gearhulks, by which time you should have the resources to deal with them.
As for how I deal with green Gearhulks, if one does land, Brutal Expulsion is so useful. It doesn't look like much on paper, but seeing the card in action, it feels like the missing piece of the puzzle for the U/R version. Bouncing a Gearhulk on their turn can set them back enough to get another shot at taking it out or give you that extra turn to win. And in other aggro match ups it takes care of Scrapheap Scroungers while two for oneing your opponent. It also deals with the Saheli combo all by itself meaning Shock isn't as necessary and I'm free to better utilize Galvanic Bombardment. I used to run Leave in the Dust to deal with on the board Gearhulks, because it drew a card and could hit problematic plansewalkers in a pinch. It was good, but Brutal Expulsion does that and grant on board extra value.
I used to run 26 lands, but I kept flooding out after I had stabilized the board. It happened just enough times that I went down to 25 and so far the change has worked out really well.
I also prefer Take Inventory over Anticipate, because in the late game against control it fills your hand back up. This is true of any game that goes long. And the trade off of instant speed to hold up a counterspell isn't much. You do have to learn the flow of various matches if you should cast it early on or just hold it for when you have many. It took a while to learn, but once I did the downside feels even less relevant.
There's about 200 pages of lists with it in the sideboard in this thread. I personally felt it wasn't as versatile as Spike Feeder, both in the burn matchup and others, but it worked for a lot of people. Though if you do go a two color/revolt route, it's going to be too small and only offset the land pain. I think Feed the Clan is going to be more necessary because of the bigger life boost.
The conversation going on in this thread now is see what the new cards offer themselves and as an opportunity to change how the deck is built. Narnam Renegade and Greenwheel Liberator are pushing towards the inclusion of fetch lands to trigger them and the possibility of a slight splash for card to aid in the bad match ups. White and Black seem to be the leaders, but there was a post with some interesting ideas for a red splash instead.
In short, no the deck is not well positioned at all right now, but that could change on the 20th with Aether Revolt and the bans.
I've brought this line of thinking up a few times in previous pages and no one every follows up to discover if it works or not. There ends up being a point where green devotion is more than just a mechanic.
The truth of the matter is, some of our worst match ups that we don't have any answers to become supremely workable with access to just a few white cards. Path to Exile is one, which also doubles in making several other match ups better by not having to negotiate creature size. And in a few cases would have helped get out of mana screw. Additionally, the best tool I can find to fight Tron is Gaddock Teeg. Everything else just doesn't have game against it. Also, Affinity is hell on Stompy as the mass removal in green is just too expensive and they dump too much on the board to use targeted removal. White has a bounty of cheep hozers from Stony Silence to Kataki, War's Wage. And Rest in Peace will out do anything mono green could muster against graveyard strategies in sheer efficiency. You might not get the up sides of a huge creature or drawing a card with Relic of Progenitus, but that isn't necessary.
Those 5 cards are the only ones I can think of that I'd even want to splash for. They fix a bunch of holes in the deck's game, at least theoretically, and don't hinder the main plan of the decks. I could understand that it does go against one of the original ethos of this deck being an affordable alternative for Modern, but if you want to be competitive, I think that ship has sailed.
Everyone keeps bringing up Blood Moon and I don't get how that affects this deck so much. Even if they spend a turn cutting off one land on the board, at most, we get an extra turn of beats. It honestly seems like a dead card in the match up as is. I understand how it is devastating to many decks in Modern, I just don't see how it affects this one. Please explain to me how if I'm wrong.
Also, discussion of Rishkar, Peema Renegade kind of disappeared. It seems like an interesting idea for growth and utility.
As for Aspect of Hyrda, it may not be as explosive in the lower casting cost, but I've always felt that as long as I was beating out Giant Growth, whatever I got was fine. Though if testing shows it to be turning the other way, maybe it should be dropped. Achieving +3/+3 to me is the minimum baseline.
Living End? Living End is one of our better match ups. It just requires changing how you play slightly. Don't over commit. Two creatures and pump spells are enough pressure with all the fetches and shocks. Get Dryad Militant or Scavenging Ooze on the board to ease up the graveyard and hold onto Baloths for after the Living End. I've had players end up using Living End as a wrath effect only for my to drop Baloths on them and then having to wrath again. After the first time I played against it, I've never lost.
This actually seems reasonable and its something that can be tried now.