@Tammy: Your post #126 is the exact reason why we need to test out HP now. The longer she is unconfirmed, the more scum can take the opportunity to WIFOM us out of it. In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying.
Okay two things. First, so? I don't put down a vote until I'm sure that's what I want to do in the first place. Second, quoi? Did you read
my entire post or were you so in a rush to make a dumb point that you didn't notice that at the very bottom of the post I said I'd vote Nati but that would be the hammer and I'd rather wait for her to come in and talk just in case something did happen?
You mention you don't put down a vote unless you are sure, and in that case I am fine with your reasoning. My problem is though you are showing hesitance to something that at that point is a no brainer. As for the second part, I did read your post, as I even mention this:
"In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying."
Also, It should not matter what position you are in. If you actually thought it was a good plan to test, then do it, don't say I'll only vote in X position.
Quote from "tanarin" »
Now on to the part about the miller claim. Yes not a lot of people jumpped on him, but there is a good reason you are forgetting. The claimed miller is likely not living too long. If the vig does not trust him, he is going to be shot, and if he turns out scummy, he will be lynched. I dunno how much experience you have with millers, but so far things have been going to SOP in that regard.
At least things were going to SOP until you decide to ring in and say he is likely town after making a whole paragraph about why he could be scum. Once again, it seems in this case one paragraph counteracts the other as far as the vibe I am getting on how you feel. Why did you feel the need to scold the town about the miller? Why not just say you feel he is town and why you feel he is town?
Seriously, did you just read every other line of my post? I mean I understand that I tend to ramble and I suppose it's possible you got interested in that same ball of yarn TMCT did, but I literally do not know how you can come to this conclusion or are asking me the questions you are.
I never once gave a reason why Arian could be scum and don't think he is. (I had one little rabbit hole through out, which as I said was a note for if either of the people I mentioned did flip scum.) The only thing I did say was the scum do fake claim miller. I never said that people should be jumping on him for the miller claim. What I said was I didn't understand why people accepted that claim without batting an eye, which is an easy fake claim for scum to make, and then call out gambit on Nati's claim, which is a much more unlikely fake claim for scum to make. It doesn't make sense to be skeptical about one while accepting the other and I want to look back at who did so and why.
What makes you think a claimed miller isn't going to live very long? I've seen millers make it to end game and seen scum win in part based on the oh scum wouldn't fake claim miller nonsense. And why shouldn't people be critical about claimed roles because maybe a vig will take care of it if the vig doesn't trust them? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
OK, maybe I did misread you on the first part (About you saying Arian may be scum scum.) Not the first time I have done that, not the last.
You do imply though you want people to jump on miller claims though when you use language like this:
Several big frownie faces go to those who didn't question the miller claim but immediately jumped to oh gosh gambit on the IC claim. I mean seriously, what's more likely to be a scum gambit? A miller claim or a triggered by lynch IC? I mean come on people. My frownie face has somewhat lessened to Sir Karn after his post where he talked about how he was willing to read Arian based on behavior as he was one of the people causing my forehead to crinkle over the gambit thing.
Bolded the relevant part.
Tell me how the bolded does nto imply you think people should have jumpped on the miller claim more.
You then go on to once again tell us that you think Nati is town based on the claim alone. I have seen some crazy claims before, some that have worked, and some that have not. I see no reason though to amonish the town over it though.
As far as my "train of thought" on millers not living long, I have explained it to KCC plenty of times already. You are right some millers live to endgame though, and those are the ones that usually tend to act really town, or are otherwise confirmed in other ways (For example checked by a watcher/tracker when only one scum was known to remain.) Most of my experience though has seen millers lynched at some point (Most for acting scummy) or vigged out of the game (Usually in an overabundance of safety.)
Quote from "tanarin" »
Finally, I know it was addressed earlier, but why the aversion to Killjoy's posts about HP's claim? The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that? I get what you say about how traps catch town as much as scum, but it is a whole different beast when it comes to a wagon analysis (Which is what a lot of mid games break down to.)
I never said we shouldn't analyze actions and reactions, and considering my whole point about the reactions to each of the claims I didn't even insinuate it. I'm not going to continue to reiterate my points on this though as I feel like my interaction with Bur should answer any questions you might have about my point concerning killjoy.
I feel like you saw wildfire say he wanted to lynch me and smelled blood in the water as this just does not feel like an honest interpretation to my post.
If I wanted to lynch you, I would have voted you in my next post. Fact is, I still dunno how exactly I feel about you. This is mainly due to you being new to me.
@KCC: I am not gonna "Try again," as it is a trap/loaded question. If I were to answer or not answer, here is what would happen:
A) Refuse to answer: I must be scum for not answering.
B) Stick to my guns: Must be scum for "bad logic"
C) Change my answer seeing that I am wrong: Must be scum for changing my answer.
D) Ignoring the question : Must be scum and I have given up.
See, any path I take to answering the question just results in me being painted as scum.
@Rhand RE: Post 239: I never said I don't want scum dead and you know it. Of course if Arian is scum, I want him lynched. I explained more of my thoughts in my response to Tammy.
@Whoever asked for reads: I'll post those up hopefully sometime tomorrow assuming I actually get back home before 9:30 PM
Since I am going to be going V/LA for a couple days, might as well claim now to save time.
I'm Lt. Andrew Dahl, member of the navy of the Universal Union. I just got back from a time travel trip to 2013 and just realized the "narrative" took over whenever I was on an away mission with any of the senior staff. I eventually found out I was on a show based on something called "Star Trek" and was about to be killed, but went back in time to find the writers and negotiated the right to live without interference. I was eventually transported here and have no idea what the hell is going on, but I am going to find out and keep myself alive.
Species is human, but not of this Universe, I have a red shirt but can't take it off, and the flavor reference is from the parody novel Redshirts, by John Scalzi.
@KCC: Where did I ever say I wanted the miller dead? You seem to like throwing words in my mouth. All I ever said on the issue is that it is self resolving and that the vig will either vig him or he is scum. I have not once said "vig kill him" or anything like that. I can't control his actions nor can I predict what will happen. All I can state is my mindset when I made that statement (One I still feel is true.)
Simpler words: I am basically going to look for scum elsewhere unless Arian starts acting scummy.
Also Unvote as I was writing my post to tammy when Rax posted his confirmation.
Unvote
As for Arianhod, I think we should actually have him just outright claim now. The advantage is we likely know who the scum are claim wise and thus make it harder for scum to fakeclaim later on. As a reference from STMU II, the miller roles were Luck Norris as Zurin Dakal (a cardassian) AND Garuk (Also Cardassian), thus giving us an idea where to look.
This is unconvincing, at best. I wouldn't ever make any assumptions about the scum roles based solely on a miller claim.
While normally I would agree that it is bad practice to assume scum based on just a miller claim in most games, this is an exception. Not only is it a Rax game, but it is a very flavorfull Rax game. It may not be much as I said, but it is something to look at.
As an added bonus it keeps him in check should he be scum trying a miller gambit on us, as if he tries to fake claim any info that us as a town knows can only be town associated, we string him up.
This feels off. It'd be expected for a townie to be skeptical of the lack of name, but the way he approaches this question feels wrong, almost excited about the situation.
Excited? How are you getting excited out of what I said? I dunno about your role PM, but I got a name in mine. At the time there were only 2 possible reasons to claim he had no name:
A) Mod error (Which was proven out in quick measure)
B) Scum was hiding a name that he obviously knew was going to be seen as scummy.
As for the miller, well hopefully that works itself out soon enough.
Tan, can you explain what you mean by "working itself out?"
Basic mafia theory 101 here. Either the Vig is gonna vig him, or he is gonna act scummy and we lynch him. A miller gambit is basically self resolving in my mind.
How about you tell us what YOU think about Arian now as opposed to just asking how others are reaching their conclusion.
I'm not liking the tone of this. Asking this question to Bur is fine, but it's far more hostile than what is needed, or than what even makes sense.
OK, I'll give you it was a bit hostile, but I saw no reason for Bur to be asking Wheat(?) why he felt Arian was town. Rhand made it throughly clear there was something in the claim that was shared between them.
I dunno how we can salvage any analysis from it at this point, but I guess I can hold off on the vote until everyone checks in.
Unvote
And then, just like that, no steam ahead. I mean, I can understand reconsidering an idea, and even specifically moving from being ready to lynch HP to being willing to wait. But this just feels like he's so eager to please, willing to follow along to blend in, especially after the "full steam ahead" comment.
The only reason we are holding off lynching HP is we want others to check in and get a feel for everyone? Sounds like a plan. The only people who want a quick lynching at this point would be the scum.
I think under the circumstance, not only scum would want a quick lynch.
If either Tan or Rai flips scum, this post needs to be closely looked at later, because if Tan isn't coaching Rai here, then I have no idea what the point of this post is. Tan seems to be contradicting Rai, but he's not showing any of the pressure or hostility he's shown towards other players.
If you think that is coaching, then man is that a piss poor coach. I mean it is obvious from Rai's post he had either not read the thread, or did not understand why HP was being lynched at that time. There was no reason to be "hostile" to him, as in this case scum is just as likely as town to not know why a person was being rung up so fast.
@Tammy: Your post #126 is the exact reason why we need to test out HP now. The longer she is unconfirmed, the more scum can take the opportunity to WIFOM us out of it. In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying.
Now on to the part about the miller claim. Yes not a lot of people jumpped on him, but there is a good reason you are forgetting. The claimed miller is likely not living too long. If the vig does not trust him, he is going to be shot, and if he turns out scummy, he will be lynched. I dunno how much experience you have with millers, but so far things have been going to SOP in that regard.
At least things were going to SOP until you decide to ring in and say he is likely town after making a whole paragraph about why he could be scum. Once again, it seems in this case one paragraph counteracts the other as far as the vibe I am getting on how you feel. Why did you feel the need to scold the town about the miller? Why not just say you feel he is town and why you feel he is town?
Finally, I know it was addressed earlier, but why the aversion to Killjoy's posts about HP's claim? The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that? I get what you say about how traps catch town as much as scum, but it is a whole different beast when it comes to a wagon analysis (Which is what a lot of mid games break down to.)
The only reason we are holding off lynching HP is we want others to check in and get a feel for everyone? Sounds like a plan. The only people who want a quick lynching at this point would be the scum.
I think under the circumstance, not only scum would want a quick lynch.
I agree that has to happen today, but wouldn't it serve us better if we wait like... 200-300ish posts? Let everyone check in, get some cursory reads on people... then we can possibly still salvage that wagon analysis.
I dunno how we can salvage any analysis from it at this point, but I guess I can hold off on the vote until everyone checks in.
How about you tell us what YOU think about Arian now as opposed to just asking how others are reaching their conclusion. Also, why did you feel the need to answer Karn's question to hooker for him?
@Wheat: I dunno if the stock quote thing is gonna get TMCT modkilled or not. I am going to need to look at the old Spot roles to see if this is actually allowed. If so, I am all for it.
@Hooker: Why did you feel the need to reveal your full role so early? Why not just reveal that you are assimilation immune and then if pressure got high enough, trigger your IC status?
The year is 2387. President Bacco was assassinated here, at the new Deep Space Nine station about a week ago. The station was completed & made operational only a couple days before; it's a replacement for the previous Cardassian Nor-class station, which was blown up by an Andorian terrorist working for only Q knows who.
Actually, I don't even have a name. I'm an Andorian starfleet officer from Deep Space 9. My species is an Andorian thaan (male). I'm apparently haunted from blowing up the space station and just want to survive.
So you are claiming to be said Andorian terrorist?
Karn, I believe TMCT is claiming Spot. See STMU II for further details. Now the question is this:
@TCMT: Are you actually Spot or are you just BSing us here?
As for Arianhod, I think we should actually have him just outright claim now. The advantage is we likely know who the scum are claim wise and thus make it harder for scum to fakeclaim later on. As a reference from STMU II, the miller roles were Luck Norris as Zurin Dakal (a cardassian) AND Garuk (Also Cardassian), thus giving us an idea where to look. As an added bonus it keeps him in check should he be scum trying a miller gambit on us, as if he tries to fake claim any info that us as a town knows can only be town associated, we string him up.
Disadvantage of course is the fact that scum will know 100% that their roles are scum and should not be claimed. Plus there is the fact that there is a chance they have falseclaims (Though they oddly did not get any in STMUII, so who knows.)
Saying that, I am all for an outright claim by Arianhod. I think the info his role has will benefit the town way more than scum.
(OOG: If you need someone to talk to Cantrip, feel free to either PM me or hop on IRC.)
@Tammy: Didn't mean to ignore your post, just got distracted. Anyway...
You mention you don't put down a vote unless you are sure, and in that case I am fine with your reasoning. My problem is though you are showing hesitance to something that at that point is a no brainer. As for the second part, I did read your post, as I even mention this:
"In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying."
Also, It should not matter what position you are in. If you actually thought it was a good plan to test, then do it, don't say I'll only vote in X position.
OK, maybe I did misread you on the first part (About you saying Arian may be scum scum.) Not the first time I have done that, not the last.
You do imply though you want people to jump on miller claims though when you use language like this:
Bolded the relevant part.
Tell me how the bolded does nto imply you think people should have jumpped on the miller claim more.
You then go on to once again tell us that you think Nati is town based on the claim alone. I have seen some crazy claims before, some that have worked, and some that have not. I see no reason though to amonish the town over it though.
As far as my "train of thought" on millers not living long, I have explained it to KCC plenty of times already. You are right some millers live to endgame though, and those are the ones that usually tend to act really town, or are otherwise confirmed in other ways (For example checked by a watcher/tracker when only one scum was known to remain.) Most of my experience though has seen millers lynched at some point (Most for acting scummy) or vigged out of the game (Usually in an overabundance of safety.)
If I wanted to lynch you, I would have voted you in my next post. Fact is, I still dunno how exactly I feel about you. This is mainly due to you being new to me.
@KCC: I am not gonna "Try again," as it is a trap/loaded question. If I were to answer or not answer, here is what would happen:
A) Refuse to answer: I must be scum for not answering.
B) Stick to my guns: Must be scum for "bad logic"
C) Change my answer seeing that I am wrong: Must be scum for changing my answer.
D) Ignoring the question : Must be scum and I have given up.
See, any path I take to answering the question just results in me being painted as scum.
@Rhand RE: Post 239: I never said I don't want scum dead and you know it. Of course if Arian is scum, I want him lynched. I explained more of my thoughts in my response to Tammy.
@Whoever asked for reads: I'll post those up hopefully sometime tomorrow assuming I actually get back home before 9:30 PM
I'm Lt. Andrew Dahl, member of the navy of the Universal Union. I just got back from a time travel trip to 2013 and just realized the "narrative" took over whenever I was on an away mission with any of the senior staff. I eventually found out I was on a show based on something called "Star Trek" and was about to be killed, but went back in time to find the writers and negotiated the right to live without interference. I was eventually transported here and have no idea what the hell is going on, but I am going to find out and keep myself alive.
Species is human, but not of this Universe, I have a red shirt but can't take it off, and the flavor reference is from the parody novel Redshirts, by John Scalzi.
@Mod: I need to V/LA until sunday.
Simpler words: I am basically going to look for scum elsewhere unless Arian starts acting scummy.
Also Unvote as I was writing my post to tammy when Rax posted his confirmation.
While normally I would agree that it is bad practice to assume scum based on just a miller claim in most games, this is an exception. Not only is it a Rax game, but it is a very flavorfull Rax game. It may not be much as I said, but it is something to look at.
Umm... ok?
Ok, so basically we agree to disagree on this point. I personally don't see how it helps scum more, but to each their own.
Excited? How are you getting excited out of what I said? I dunno about your role PM, but I got a name in mine. At the time there were only 2 possible reasons to claim he had no name:
A) Mod error (Which was proven out in quick measure)
B) Scum was hiding a name that he obviously knew was going to be seen as scummy.
Basic mafia theory 101 here. Either the Vig is gonna vig him, or he is gonna act scummy and we lynch him. A miller gambit is basically self resolving in my mind.
OK, I'll give you it was a bit hostile, but I saw no reason for Bur to be asking Wheat(?) why he felt Arian was town. Rhand made it throughly clear there was something in the claim that was shared between them.
Dunno how you are reading too much enthuasiam, but whatevs.
Umm... OK?
If you think that is coaching, then man is that a piss poor coach. I mean it is obvious from Rai's post he had either not read the thread, or did not understand why HP was being lynched at that time. There was no reason to be "hostile" to him, as in this case scum is just as likely as town to not know why a person was being rung up so fast.
@Mod: Flip over my card and target Antny
I said Wed Oct 8th at 8 PMish EDT, baring my deadline math being bad.
@Mod: Can we get a date/time on the deadline?
Vote HookerPunch
@Tammy: Your post #126 is the exact reason why we need to test out HP now. The longer she is unconfirmed, the more scum can take the opportunity to WIFOM us out of it. In fact you then even go on to say you are fine testing said claim, yet you don't put your vote where your mouth is and vote HP? Your action, or lack of it in this case is certainly against what you are saying.
Now on to the part about the miller claim. Yes not a lot of people jumpped on him, but there is a good reason you are forgetting. The claimed miller is likely not living too long. If the vig does not trust him, he is going to be shot, and if he turns out scummy, he will be lynched. I dunno how much experience you have with millers, but so far things have been going to SOP in that regard.
At least things were going to SOP until you decide to ring in and say he is likely town after making a whole paragraph about why he could be scum. Once again, it seems in this case one paragraph counteracts the other as far as the vibe I am getting on how you feel. Why did you feel the need to scold the town about the miller? Why not just say you feel he is town and why you feel he is town?
Finally, I know it was addressed earlier, but why the aversion to Killjoy's posts about HP's claim? The whole point of mafia is analyzing actions and reactions, yet here in essence you say we should not do that? I get what you say about how traps catch town as much as scum, but it is a whole different beast when it comes to a wagon analysis (Which is what a lot of mid games break down to.)
I think under the circumstance, not only scum would want a quick lynch.
I dunno how we can salvage any analysis from it at this point, but I guess I can hold off on the vote until everyone checks in.
Unvote
This sounds like the best course of action at this point.
Vote Hookerpunch
Full steam ahead!
@HookerPunch: Why the vote on Killjoy?
How about you tell us what YOU think about Arian now as opposed to just asking how others are reaching their conclusion. Also, why did you feel the need to answer Karn's question to hooker for him?
@Wheat: I dunno if the stock quote thing is gonna get TMCT modkilled or not. I am going to need to look at the old Spot roles to see if this is actually allowed. If so, I am all for it.
@Hooker: Why did you feel the need to reveal your full role so early? Why not just reveal that you are assimilation immune and then if pressure got high enough, trigger your IC status?
@Wildfire: Spot has turned into a tradition with EU/MU games. He has been in both MU 2 and EU: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/446691-star-trek-expanded-warped-universe-game-over-town?page=4#c99 <--- Link to the 1st EU game for reference.
So seeing Spot is not so much a shocker to me.
As for the miller, well hopefully that works itself out soon enough.
Also:
So you are claiming to be said Andorian terrorist?
Karn, I believe TMCT is claiming Spot. See STMU II for further details. Now the question is this:
@TCMT: Are you actually Spot or are you just BSing us here?
As for Arianhod, I think we should actually have him just outright claim now. The advantage is we likely know who the scum are claim wise and thus make it harder for scum to fakeclaim later on. As a reference from STMU II, the miller roles were Luck Norris as Zurin Dakal (a cardassian) AND Garuk (Also Cardassian), thus giving us an idea where to look. As an added bonus it keeps him in check should he be scum trying a miller gambit on us, as if he tries to fake claim any info that us as a town knows can only be town associated, we string him up.
Disadvantage of course is the fact that scum will know 100% that their roles are scum and should not be claimed. Plus there is the fact that there is a chance they have falseclaims (Though they oddly did not get any in STMUII, so who knows.)
Saying that, I am all for an outright claim by Arianhod. I think the info his role has will benefit the town way more than scum.
Has to be a part of the Maquis, I mean look at his name.