OK, so the Kami kill seems odd odd, but maybe not unexpected. I believe Generic said he was trying to direct the scum kill towards a false target. Maybe scum felt Kami was the priest. Only other reason I can find at this point for a scum kill on a non GD/Holy player is if KK was actually town and they were afraid of KK out-WIFOMing them and protecting the right target. No way to probe this though unless the priest comes out and says Vaimes is scum.
I am going to need to re-read and see for sure if Generic did direct heat towards Kami in an attempt to get him killed via nightkill over the actual priest. That way I can at least have a clearer idea what happened.
@Cantrip: Do you think Vaimes is lying about KK's alignment and KK was actually town? Because your analysis of the Kami kill seems to heavily hint at that as your line of thought. If so, have any proof of such a thing? You seem to be really dancing around the issue without actually committing to anything concrete.
@TMCT: To answer your post #424, yes it does. Needless to say that game still stings quite a bit given it is the last one I played. I dunno if the vote itself is from a scum or town PoV, but it was not a needed vote by any means so late into the Day.
@Citrus: First off, you never really explained your vote on me yesterday. I would like some more clarification on that. I also want to know why you felt the need to point out that AE is a Survivalist/Gambler when you voted. I know you eventually explained your vote, but when you initially made your vote, it came off like you were using his role as the reason to vote him. I do agree with you though that tare is very likely town due to being the only real viable counter wagon yesterday.
This is tough, because I'm not sure what the overseas availability is of a lot of products. Games Workshops products have a pretty loyal following, but they tend to have a heavy investment too.
Personally, outside of Magic my favorite game is X-Wing Miniatures.
Poland will actually be EASIER to get Warhammer stuff, as GW is located in England. Ya know EU and all that stuff.
Anyway, you mention you live in Poland, and you have a thing for science. As crazy as this sounds, have you considered model rocketry. I hear the competition scene over there is actually pretty big (Has a lot to do with Eastern Europe's past and the government actually sponsoring them.) I just got back into the hobby and I have to say it is the most fun I have had in a long time. You would have to do some of the research over there yourself, but that may just be the ticket you want (Also I am damn jealous of some of motors you guys get over there, just saying.)
Listen to Vaimes people, if you have caught scum, you lynch caught scum. Not only are the reasons Vaimes stating valid, but there is also the chance that come tomorrow, a lynch on said person will be harder or even impossible to do. If you want a prime example of this, take a look at Pope Mafia. JeY k had scum!iso caught that game. Then he did a "Ooohhhh shiny," and started a new wagon right before Iso was about to be lynched. Iso was never considered for a wagon again the entire game and town eventually lost.
I don't see what the Priest's identity has anything to do with anything? You said that the current situation puts the Priest in the awkward position of having to check either me or Generic, and I think checking Generic is objectively bad.
Since there's no Jester, the Inquisitor can do whatever they like. Again, Generic is conf!town, but. Eh.
I know, I guess I was over thinking the whole priest thing a bit.
@Citrus: You better have a damn good reason for voting me at this juncture when KK is clearly caught scum, especially with deadline looming.
@Vaimes: Well yes, but we don't know who the Priest is (Well other than Generic,) now do we? Anyway, it is more likely the inquisitor is going to be checking Generic (Assuming said role is town, of course.)
Also agree with you on the talking about generic's role thing. No point in not talking about it now that the cat is out of the bag.
Well, there isn't much you can do in that situation. If someone claims your role, obviously the person is lying scum and you should CC them. If scum claim Holy and aren't CC'd, they can skate to endgame. And if you wait too long to CC, you'll look scummy for waiting and probably get mislynched.
Honestly, it's at least better than the Priest being outed. The best we can hope for is that KK is telling the truth and will Protect Generic.
On top of that, it now puts scum on the position of having to choose Generic or Vaimes as a kill target (In a way same goes for the priest having to make a choice, but that is a discussion for post game most likely.) The huge benefit though is the fact that we are very likely to be going into Day 2 with at least one confirmed town (And possibly 2 depending on what happens.)
People who botch their claim get lynched. It's as simple as that. No tolerance, which can sometimes cause foolish townies to lose any chance of avoiding their mislynch.[/quote]
Yes, but at the same time, it is not so much that you botched it, as much as how long it took you to correct it. One would think that a person claiming would at least look at their role PM before claiming, or at minimum, the moment after they post their claim to make sure it was correct. The fact you waited 5 hours before "correcting" is what did you in. There is also the fact that you failed to recognize Vaimes claim (Which to your slight credit, you were AFK, so there is a chance you may not have seen it at the time.) Even then though, in your correction, one would think that you would have outted him in an attempt to save yourself, or at least noted you were the GD backup.
@TMCT: Why is there any doubt at all as to who is scum in this situation (Even if there was a mistake on KK's part for some reason.) Generic clearly counterclaimed before you tried to put the breaks on the KK wagon. There is absolutely no reason for a scum!Generic to counterclaim KK in that position. Not only would it put himself at risk of a lynch should KK have misclaimed and the REAL Acolyte claimed, but there is also the fact that it would have drawn out Two players on him, the yet unclaimed Priest, and the inquisitor. Either one would have busted him on the spot, and for what? A 1 to 1 trade? Sounds like a real bad trade for scum (Even with the outting of the priest or Inquisitor.)
@Tanarin
Yeah, too late. This boat has long since sailed. We're on the open sea now.
1) How about we take into account that Shenanigans is in fact a possibility and cross that bridge when we come to it? Like. If the Priest checks me for scum, it won't be like we didn't know Shenanigans could have happened. We can talk it out like mature adults.
2) Or the Priest could check someone else, and come back to me some other Night if they really want to? Last game the GD was super obv!town so this wasn't really an issue, but. I'm not too worried.
3) Relax. I'm town. Trust me and everything will be alright.
The whole Shenanigans thing really only applies if we actually hit scum on D1. And if we mislynch, then the Angels can Protect me. Fun, fun, fun.
Scum want to know the cards of the dead just as much as town does. How else are they going to know if they nailed the Priest? If I die N1, then you should probably lynch the Apprentice whenever a massclaim goes down and they're still alive.
OK then, guess no need for further discussion on the GD issue. I didn't even think about the mislynch possibility though, so good point from you.
So, mind posting your reads once you are done with your readthrough? (Or even some prelim reads if you have any of those queued up.)
OK, I think the town needs to readdress the GD claim thing. I think maybe citrus is right here and we need to at least look at the possibility of a Gravedigger claim. I know I was against it earlier in the game, but I have re-weighed the arguments and maybe it is for the best for the role to claim after all. From what I have seen/read/gathered, these are the pros and cons of the action in this current setup.
Pros:
1) We get a role out that can really wreck the town if it goes unclaimed until later and happens to be in scum hands.
2) Puts scum in the awkward situation of either having to kill the GD (Which likely means scum have the apprentice set to GD,) using Shenanigans on him (Which is not assured to work as the priest may not check him,) or Leaving him alone (Which is not good should priest actually check him.)
3) If the GD is scum, he is likely to be busted real fast by the Priest.
Cons:
1) Could become a mislynch victim real fast if scum is lynched day 1.
2) Likely locks in the priest to a N1 inspect that could be used elsewhere.
3) We can't fully trust the info from the GD unless we have a random Priest inspect as well at MC time.
I really want others to chime in on this issue next post they make.
Edit: I also noticed the forums lost an entire post I swore I posted addressing this issue to Citrus.
Essence of the post:
I'll look at the game he posted and think about a GD claim some more.
Not entirely. Apathy is bad for the town in general. Just because we are waiting on replacements does not mean you can't keep discussing stuff altogether or keep adding content. Sometimes slips happen that require a lynch to happen before replacements can be found.
@AE: As for your question on how inactivity helps scum, well I am sure I can find millions of examples. The base of my argument though is the fact that it is always way easier for scum to blend in on an inactive game vs an active game. If a game is really inactive, scum can basically float by. IN an active game though, scum has to try and either keep up with the rest of the game, or at minimum try and provide as much content as possible in as few posts as possible while still looking town. Anybody here who has played a game as scum (Which I am assuming is everyone at this point,) knows that trying to post content that seems town on a constant basis is not easy unless a lot of mislynch targets present themselves.
2) Grave-digger should claim today. It's incredibly strong for scum to have a grave-digger due to the ability to fake-claim stuff especially early on in the game. This game also doesn't have a jester or other mechanic to slow down the early game allowing scum to utilize grave digger. Scum!apprentice would know who town grave digger is anyways if they pick grave digger. Town grave digger is a sub-par role to kill for scum, so it's relatively safe for them to out.
Quick question: Have you played this with Shenanigans as a Night 1 unlock or a Night 2 unlock? If the former, you may not be familiar with the current game theory threads posted by Taredas stating that claiming GD on D1 is pretty much useless now. If you have played though with Shenanigans as a N1 unlock and actually had GD claim D1, mind posting a completed game showing this so we can see what happened?
Nope. I see scummy behavior, and I see null behavior. Once the replacements get in here and reboot the game we can start moving along and getting things going.
So... are you implying you don't see any scummy behavior from the people who are still left, and only saw it from those being replaced? I find it kard to believe that you don't see someone as town due to interactions with those in your scum pile. Also why do not want to move the game forward a bit? 219 posts is not a lot to catch up on. I am sure the last two people who replace in can catch up reasonably fast. Hell, you currently have Tare as a scumsuspect (As you are voting him.) Who are your other scumsuspects right now? Lazyness is only going to help scum, so stalling the game too long is bad.
I am going to need to re-read and see for sure if Generic did direct heat towards Kami in an attempt to get him killed via nightkill over the actual priest. That way I can at least have a clearer idea what happened.
@Cantrip: Do you think Vaimes is lying about KK's alignment and KK was actually town? Because your analysis of the Kami kill seems to heavily hint at that as your line of thought. If so, have any proof of such a thing? You seem to be really dancing around the issue without actually committing to anything concrete.
@TMCT: To answer your post #424, yes it does. Needless to say that game still stings quite a bit given it is the last one I played. I dunno if the vote itself is from a scum or town PoV, but it was not a needed vote by any means so late into the Day.
@Citrus: First off, you never really explained your vote on me yesterday. I would like some more clarification on that. I also want to know why you felt the need to point out that AE is a Survivalist/Gambler when you voted. I know you eventually explained your vote, but when you initially made your vote, it came off like you were using his role as the reason to vote him. I do agree with you though that tare is very likely town due to being the only real viable counter wagon yesterday.
Poland will actually be EASIER to get Warhammer stuff, as GW is located in England. Ya know EU and all that stuff.
Anyway, you mention you live in Poland, and you have a thing for science. As crazy as this sounds, have you considered model rocketry. I hear the competition scene over there is actually pretty big (Has a lot to do with Eastern Europe's past and the government actually sponsoring them.) I just got back into the hobby and I have to say it is the most fun I have had in a long time. You would have to do some of the research over there yourself, but that may just be the ticket you want (Also I am damn jealous of some of motors you guys get over there, just saying.)
I know, I guess I was over thinking the whole priest thing a bit.
@Citrus: You better have a damn good reason for voting me at this juncture when KK is clearly caught scum, especially with deadline looming.
Also agree with you on the talking about generic's role thing. No point in not talking about it now that the cat is out of the bag.
On top of that, it now puts scum on the position of having to choose Generic or Vaimes as a kill target (In a way same goes for the priest having to make a choice, but that is a discussion for post game most likely.) The huge benefit though is the fact that we are very likely to be going into Day 2 with at least one confirmed town (And possibly 2 depending on what happens.)
Yes, but at the same time, it is not so much that you botched it, as much as how long it took you to correct it. One would think that a person claiming would at least look at their role PM before claiming, or at minimum, the moment after they post their claim to make sure it was correct. The fact you waited 5 hours before "correcting" is what did you in. There is also the fact that you failed to recognize Vaimes claim (Which to your slight credit, you were AFK, so there is a chance you may not have seen it at the time.) Even then though, in your correction, one would think that you would have outted him in an attempt to save yourself, or at least noted you were the GD backup.
@TMCT: Why is there any doubt at all as to who is scum in this situation (Even if there was a mistake on KK's part for some reason.) Generic clearly counterclaimed before you tried to put the breaks on the KK wagon. There is absolutely no reason for a scum!Generic to counterclaim KK in that position. Not only would it put himself at risk of a lynch should KK have misclaimed and the REAL Acolyte claimed, but there is also the fact that it would have drawn out Two players on him, the yet unclaimed Priest, and the inquisitor. Either one would have busted him on the spot, and for what? A 1 to 1 trade? Sounds like a real bad trade for scum (Even with the outting of the priest or Inquisitor.)
Vote KoolKoal
L-2 Everyone
OK then, guess no need for further discussion on the GD issue. I didn't even think about the mislynch possibility though, so good point from you.
So, mind posting your reads once you are done with your readthrough? (Or even some prelim reads if you have any of those queued up.)
Pros:
1) We get a role out that can really wreck the town if it goes unclaimed until later and happens to be in scum hands.
2) Puts scum in the awkward situation of either having to kill the GD (Which likely means scum have the apprentice set to GD,) using Shenanigans on him (Which is not assured to work as the priest may not check him,) or Leaving him alone (Which is not good should priest actually check him.)
3) If the GD is scum, he is likely to be busted real fast by the Priest.
Cons:
1) Could become a mislynch victim real fast if scum is lynched day 1.
2) Likely locks in the priest to a N1 inspect that could be used elsewhere.
3) We can't fully trust the info from the GD unless we have a random Priest inspect as well at MC time.
I really want others to chime in on this issue next post they make.
Edit: I also noticed the forums lost an entire post I swore I posted addressing this issue to Citrus.
Essence of the post:
I'll look at the game he posted and think about a GD claim some more.
@AE: As for your question on how inactivity helps scum, well I am sure I can find millions of examples. The base of my argument though is the fact that it is always way easier for scum to blend in on an inactive game vs an active game. If a game is really inactive, scum can basically float by. IN an active game though, scum has to try and either keep up with the rest of the game, or at minimum try and provide as much content as possible in as few posts as possible while still looking town. Anybody here who has played a game as scum (Which I am assuming is everyone at this point,) knows that trying to post content that seems town on a constant basis is not easy unless a lot of mislynch targets present themselves.
Quick question: Have you played this with Shenanigans as a Night 1 unlock or a Night 2 unlock? If the former, you may not be familiar with the current game theory threads posted by Taredas stating that claiming GD on D1 is pretty much useless now. If you have played though with Shenanigans as a N1 unlock and actually had GD claim D1, mind posting a completed game showing this so we can see what happened?
https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/505902994706030592
Something in this set makes 4/4 Bear tokens.
So... are you implying you don't see any scummy behavior from the people who are still left, and only saw it from those being replaced? I find it kard to believe that you don't see someone as town due to interactions with those in your scum pile. Also why do not want to move the game forward a bit? 219 posts is not a lot to catch up on. I am sure the last two people who replace in can catch up reasonably fast. Hell, you currently have Tare as a scumsuspect (As you are voting him.) Who are your other scumsuspects right now? Lazyness is only going to help scum, so stalling the game too long is bad.