Picked up a judge foil Nekusar this last weekend at thethe midwest judge conference, so my general is officially pimp even if the great of the deck really isn't.
Also the full set got spoiled and there was really only one more card that I saw that might have potential value:
Dig through time: after a wheel or two basically costs UU and finds you some combination of wheels, headaches, ramp, or interaction (choose 2). It does have disadvantage when combined with time spiral & timetwister (or if opponents have rest in peace like effects). I don't think i'll be including it in my list, but could have a place in others or control lists. Let me know how it works if anyone tests it out.
As expected of a wedge set, there aren't too many new tools for a shard general like nekusar, especially one so focused.
We haven't gotten a new wheel yet (nor do I really expect us too), but there are a small handful of cards that are worth considering for some builds:
1. Howl of the Horde. This is a potential double twincast for only 1 extra mana (also less color requirements) if you run a decent number of creatures that can turn sideways. I especially like this if you're still running creatures like kederekt parasite or kami of the crescent moon that don't need to tap for their effects, and can be dropped early. This is also a potential key card for the control variant being able to do a sudden 20-40 damage off of a single wheel of fortune. Comparably to normal twincasts, this has a couple very nice benefits: You cast howl before you cast the spell your copying, so opponents have to guess which one to counter. And because it's a delayed trigger copying the spell, and not a spell itself, they can't counter the original spell in response to your twincast to 2-for-1 you. Even if they do counter the original spell, you still get the 2 copies.
2. Murderous Cut. Another cheap removal spell (one mana after you cast a wheel or 2) that kills anything that isn't hexproof or pro-black. This is a great option if you're having issues with specific creatures that snuff out, dismember, or blasphemous act can't get rid of. Just remember not to exile any cards you might want to cast off of yawgmoth's will, recoup, or past in flames.
3. Clever Impersonator. For an extra blue, this is phyrexian metamorph & copy enchantment gone crazy. I wouldn't run this in the hardcore combo version of the deck, but this is the best EDH clone they've ever made, and if you're playing more controlly or just good stuff, definitely try to include it in your list.
4. Ugin's Nexus. Great hate card if your meta is having issues with people abusing time walks (although stranglehold is still probably better for us). If people are blowing up your stranglehold, then try out this instead (since you get a time walk if they blow it up)
Alright, I think that is probably the correct wording, even though the first part is wordy. Much easier to translate than Ajani who has a billion abilities.
should be "another target tapped", target would come before tapped as tapped is a description of what you're allowed to target.
I may not run the full combo-centric Nekusar build you run, but I definitely love the direction. I think my version will be more of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of deck, sort of like how Kaervek the Merciless plays. With a few one-shot combo pieces thrown in. I don't have nearly the correct number of Wheel effects to make mine a one-shot-kill-everyone kind of deck, and I'm limited to sub-optimal things like Jace's Archivist, which is still fun. Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Psychosis Crawler, Jace Beleren, Spiteful Visions, Howling Mine, Furnace of Wrath, etc. Like a really deadly Group Hug.
Do you think Forced Fruition has a home in a deck like this?
forced fruition I love in the more controlly-group-violent-hugging variant you seem to be building. Get some headaches down and your as you said, it creates a great damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
I've been researching and planning to build a "wheel and deal" Nekusar deck for a while now and I've began to get the cards I need. My meta is a combo heavy and aggro heavy meta so anything that dumps their hands consistently or punishes them for drawing is a good deck. While building my own I was looking around at other decks to get an idea of other cards I might need or certain combos that I may have overlooked. In doing so I came across your deck build which I've been watching for the past couple of weeks. While mine was more based on combos and infinite wheel loops, yours is based more off of headache cards that make the draw that much worse. Also, my Nekusar deck relied heavily on the general itself which I found to be an issue. Because of this, I decided to start using a list very close to yours. In my opinion, your list has one of the strongest synergies and combo potentials out of most of the Nekusar wheel decks I've seen.
However, at the moment I'm also finishing my Mayael the Anima deck and my budget is somewhat restricted for singular cards. This means that since I don't already have the dual lands for these particular color combinations, any fetchlands, Timetwister, Mana Crypt, or Force of Will (I'll be getting this soon though), I'll need to find replacements for them in my deck. As far as Force is concerned, I'll just need a temporary replacement.
I was wondering if you had suggestions since you've had more experience with this deck than I have. I have an extra Grim Monolith so if you think that would be a decent replacement to Mana Crypt than I'd do that, but as far as balancing out the lands, I'm a bit at a loss. I'm also curious if there are any alternative wheels to replace Timetwister (other than Diminishing Returns) until I trade for one, or any low drop counterspells to replace Force of Will until I get mine next month.
This is an awesome decklist and I really want to be able to get something close to it if I can. Thanks for any answers you may have!
EDIT: Disregard the Force of Will. I calculated the rest of my Mayael's deck price and I should be fine picking it up early.
I'm glad you like the list. Grim Monolith is fine, it's not nearly as efficient as crypt, but the deck just wants to dump fast mana and swap hands most of the time, so grim is fine (plus it produces 1 extra mana with mind over matter). Eventually you will want the mana crypt, since the ability to play a free mana source off of a wheel to try to chain them together is not to be understated.
Diminishing returns works as a replacement for timetwister. I was lucky enough to be able to trade in the judge basic lands I received and some spare cash to pick up my twister.
As for personal tutor, I think it's the lesser of the tutors that are already there. If you add in Temporal mastery it gets better since you'll have 2 miracles you can setup. The nice thing about Vampiric tutor, Gamble, and Imperial Seal (and potentially demonic tutor) is that they can grab mana ramp on turn 1 to make sure you get an explosive start, while also being able to grab wheels and headache cards. Mystical tutor has the benefit of being instant speed so that your opponents don't know until it's too late that you've setup a reforge the soul on top of your deck.
bloodchief ascension was in the deck for the longest time, the problem with it was that if it wasn't in play on turn 1/2, it never became active, since you were commonly comboing out in a single turn (sucks too since I had a pretty foil one for the deck). It's a much better card for the controlly build of nekusar, especially if you want to build in the mindcrank combo.
Tolarian Academy is banned in edh, and the deck doesn't have problems hitting metal craft (also it really only wants islands in play for thwart's alternative cast), so it doesn't need the liability of the artifact lands. If you end up including trinket mage, then I would probably play some of the artifact lands so he can be a sweet civic wayfinder (although he'll probably only ever grab moxes, crypt, or sol ring)
Time walks are a personal choice. They can be good for the deck to extend the combo turn (although you lose floating mana effects like waste not). The real problem is finding room for them.
Really glad to see you like the deck, and I hope you the best for build your own. Also let us know if you stumble upon any secret tech for the deck as well.
Like the decklist, i made a mean Nekusar deck as soon as I got the precon, while slighty different there may be some things you may want to consider or play test:
Lion's Eye Diamond (high risk, high reward)
Mana Drain wins games
Maybe more for the control type builds. but won me games outta nowhere
I tried to keep the counter spells to just free variants (besides swan song, which is too good and too low cost not to include). Mana drain though could definitely have a place in the deck, since all we really need is extra mana to combo off, I just don't have access to one currently besides online. Same goes for Imperial Seal.
Lion's Eye Diamond can be used, just beware that it interacts negatively with any of the "draw equal to what you had" cards (like Winds of Change and Molten Psyche) and can only really be used while you have a wheel on the stack, so if you draw into it, you can't use it to fuel your next wheel since you need to discard your hand.
Saturday evening at 9pm central time starts spoilers for Khans of Tarkir (from the Pax Party). I'll be covering some of the potential cards in this list. Also if I'm not exhausted from working an overnight shift, I hope to have at least a decent list of all the other older potential cards that didn't make it into this deck posted, even if I can't add discussion points on all of them yet.
Updated the 2nd post with card descriptions to accurately reflect what cards are currently in the decklist.
Gathering a list of cards that aren't included in the deck list that could be (such as snapcaster mage, helm of the Ghastlord, forced fruition, etc...) to discuss them (will be included as the third post of this topic along with a possible Nekusar control build). If you'd like to suggest any cards I'll add them to the list.
replaced the other 2 basic lands for islands with the increased number of blue dig spells and to increase the utility of foil and thwart (thwart usually doesn't have an issue with the dual lands being first priority when I fetch, foil wants those basic islands in hand though). This meant dragonskull summit had less procs. Boseiju coming into play tapped has been really annoying too.
likely going to pick up a gamble tomorrow evening if all goes to plan.
I'm not sure I understand your Dragonskull summit -> Mox Opal decision. You should always replace a basic land before a dual land imo. You just took out four ways to not get a mountain and swamp overall. Are you sure you need that much blue?
3 ways to produce black/red, not 4. One of which was more likely to come into play tapped because I changed the other 2 basics into islands. I also added a rainbow mana source, so I really only cut 2 sources, of which I never play either if I can play any other land in the deck. I also realized I didn't need basics of every color (path to exile is pretty weak against me, and mana rocks can let me run off islands if back to basics or blood moon is played). Islands and blue mana are much more important due to the increased number or cantrip spells, mind over matter, and foil/thwart alternative castings.
Edit: acquired a gamble tonight. Going to replace the teferi's puzzlebox with the new tutor.
i dont know if i'd run gamble when you have access to black. sure, it's cheap, but i cannot stand it when i tutor for something and then have to discard it.
i dont know if i'd run gamble when you have access to black. sure, it's cheap, but i cannot stand it when i tutor for something and then have to discard it.
You also have to reveal, which isn't always good. But he is running YawgWin and Recoup (I still advocate for PiF) so he has ways of recurring the discard.
I'd probably still prefer a black tutor but most of the ones worth running (that he doesn't have) are more pricey than Gamble
You don't have to reveal for gamble since it grabs "a card" not a characteristic of a card. You may have to discard it, however if you have library of leng out then you can discard the random card to the top of your deck, and as it's going from one non-public zone to another, it's never revealed.
The next black tutor I would get is an imperial seal which is just stupidly expensive right now (hopefully they print a judge foil soon that I could get my hands on).
@Mellojoe: Glad I could help. steal away at your hearts content.
replaced the other 2 basic lands for islands with the increased number of blue dig spells and to increase the utility of foil and thwart (thwart usually doesn't have an issue with the dual lands being first priority when I fetch, foil wants those basic islands in hand though). This meant dragonskull summit had less procs. Boseiju coming into play tapped has been really annoying too.
likely going to pick up a gamble tomorrow evening if all goes to plan.
You have Megrim listed in two spots in your list. I don't know if that puts you at 101 or if you actually have another card in the deck (or could put another).
Give us a heads up on how Minds Aglow works out. It's an interesting choice that I never really thought about. I think it might be better suited if you were playing Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrery or some other way to flash in Nekusar in response (after payments are announced). Otherwise I would expect you are the only one paying, which could still be good.
Good catch, the 2nd megrim was actually Waste Not. Waste not you were concerned about how useful the black mana is, and while it doesn't directly cast wheels, it can cast all of the artifact mana you draw to help filter into wheels. It also does a decent job of drawing cards like Geth's Grimoire. It is a very strong card, and is one of the best at generating resources to help chain wheels together. The zombies are mostly irrelevant, but are fair chump blockers as they come in untapped (unlike most newer zombie makers).
Minds Aglow is the best prosperity variant. It can make use of excessive mana from waste not, mana rocks, and mind over matter to help draw into other wheels or just kill people with underworld dreams/psychosis crawler. It is also the only prosperity that you don't have to pay for X until it resolves. In this deck you just ignore the other players can add to X clause, unless they're feeling particularly suicidal.
Haven't gotten to do more than a few solitaire games with most of the cards on the list, but so far I have to say that Gilded Lotus when combined with all the additional mana ramp that's been added to the list to make it drop on turns 2-3 has been fantastic (especially since it can instantly tap to cast Molten Psyche, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall). The individual card draw spells have also been working out nicely for digging into wheels or more ramp. Also testing out some removal spell changes.
As for snapcaster mage, my issue with him in this deck is that he's not reusable out of the graveyard (well, unless you cast yawgmoth's will, in which case why aren't you just casting the instant/sorcery?) Recoup while only getting one card back (unlike past in flames, which by the way I do like, just am afraid of the excessive mana cost) is castable from the yard in a pinch. Most of the time you only need to recast one wheel effect for the game to be over, also Timetwister and Time Spiral both shuffle the yard back into the deck, so it's not uncommon to have no yard after a cast or flashback. I think Past in Flames is much better in a true storm deck that can utilize more rituals and can trip spells, this deck just wants to (in terms of instants and sorceries) recast a wheel.
I don't like the Howling Mine effects in competitive Nekusar. I don't even like casting Nekusar until the turn you are ready to combo.
It might just be the decks I play against pretty much all are built to benefit of extra card draw just as much as I do. Whenever an opponent that uses those effects plays Nekusar against my combo/control Oloro my first thought is "thank you for winning me the game" before the game even starts. (And I'm usually right unless Niv is in the game)
Personally I'd rather play Puzzle Box (as mentioned by others), Psychosis Crawler, more personal card draw or control in those symmetrical draw spots you use.
The best Nekusar decks I've seen, the ones that don't win games for other people, play a lot like storm decks. You do a lot of deck cycling with and into wheels and use mana doublers (you might want to consider High Tide and Bubbling Muck) with stuff like Reiterate, Turnabout and untap cards like Frantic Search, Time Spiral, Snap etc...to build up massive mana then kill you in one turn casting 20 spells, most of which are wheels.
Another interesting strategy with Nekusar that I've seen used to good effect is Notion Thief. Which sounds a little counter intuitive. But what you do is aggressively tutor for Thief and a wheel. Build massive card advantage while emptying hands. Stuff your deck full of control. Then kill with Psychosis Crawler. Or use a kill spell on Thief when you are ready to wheel for lethal.
So the additional card draws that I would cut would be howling mine, kami, and anvil. The temple bell and otherworld atlas combo with mind over matter, so I’ll be keeping them around. I’d lean more towards replacing with 2 or 1 mana personal draw, like ponder, preordain, impulse, etc… any others you would personally suggest?
I’m still not a fan of Puzzle Box on the combo side. Most of the time you dump your hand with acceleration and you aren’t refreshing nearly as many cards as you want, or you’re having to shuffle away wheels and just running into more rocks.
Psychosis crawler I think should probably find a place back in the deck as another headache.
High tide/bubbling muck I considered, but don’t think they generate nearly enough/consistent benefit (at least with my mana base). Muck is great with urborg, but urborg isn’t high on my land play priority. Turnabout’s a bit similar to me, in that you don’t get to choose artifacts & lands, also that it costs 4 mana. I guess it does have the nice benefit of being able to fog at its worse. Frantic search I like (especially with library of leng), although it does combine better with tide/muck.
I tried out Notion thief for awhile, and it was before I had excessive amounts of low cost ramp. I guess this is a more consistent/safe version of nekusar + helm of the ghastlord (which I’ll probably drop due to your later suggestions). I’ll give it another try.
Beautiful list. I love playing with Nekusar, and have a couple suggestions: Elder Mastery - Locks people out of the game, much like Helm of the Ghast Lord. Quest for Pure Flame - A hidden gem that I've found to be incredibly helpful. Let's say Nekusar is out in a 4 player pod; Quest is up to 6 counters on your next turn. Your next Wheel of Fortune can do 102 damage to each opponent. (Activate Quest, leaving 2 counters. Nekusar trigger after first card draw [1 of 7]. 3 more counters on Quest for a total of 5. Activate quest, leaving 1 counter. Nekusar trigger 2 of 7. Activate quest. So on.)
Keep up the mindraising!
Quest for pure flame is interesting, mostly because it’s such low cost, and every draw (even mass draw from wheels) triggers it individually with underworld dreams variants, so it clicks up very quickly on your turn. Elder mastery I omit because it’s a more expensive form of helm of the ghastlord, and I want to stay away from relying on having nekusar in play.
I think cards like Elder Mastery and Helm of the Ghastlord (and to a milder extent, Curiosity, which is the Firemind's pet aura) are better suited for slower builds of Nekusar who aim to control the board first then kill their opponents (slowly) later. This would appeal to more casual (or patient?) Nekusar players, but not so much to those who run heaps of mana acceleration and just want to combo off asap. You might need to attach your auras during the same turn as Nekusar entered the battlefield, or run the risk of being disrupted (which would be easy to do if you're in such a hurry, considering the amount of cards that you're giving your opponents).
Agreed. They are either way to slow or just plain pointless for a truly competitive Nekusar build. A competitive Nekusar build kills it's opponents the same turn they summon Nekusar. So those auras really don't do much of anything. Though they can make it so the wheels essential empty their hands. But that is usually win more at that point.
With that logic, why not replace everything currently under "The Additional Draw"? If Curiosity is just win more, and Elder Mastery too slow, why does Helm of the Ghastlord stand out? I personally prefer the added flexibility, but if the "Competitive Build" is what you're going for, why not forgo the resilience and swap out all the Howling Mine - esque cards for additional transmutes and things more helpful without Nekusar on the board?
I’m going to try out just this (although as I said above, keeping Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas).
Helm has also proven unreliable in more competitive games, as they keep Nekusar off of the board, and 9 mana + a wheel and preferably counterspell backup is a little hard to have with all those cards too.
In terms of mana ramp, I’ve been testing out mana vault and been fairly pleased with it. Even though it’s 5 mana, do you think adding back in Gilded lotus is worth it? Yes I realize it combos well with mind over matter, but if mind over matter is in play, then I’ve already won. Also thinking about adding Mox Opal to the list.
I also made a large purchase yesterday in the form of a Timetwister, and have added that to the deck.
I’ll update my current list later tonight.
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I am trying to make this deck as strong as it can possibly be in terms of combo-ing, and all help is welcome.
I'm not sure why this thread doesn't get as much traffic, but your list, sir, is beautiful. Frighteningly beautiful. When you said that a forked wheel could deal as much as 30-40 damage to each opponent with a "headache" card in play, I was aghast.
I have a slightly more lenient Nekusar build that's trying to draw as little attention to itself as possible by taking things slow and pretending to be the meekest commander in the field. I always felt that once people see Nekusar in the command zone, alarums start firing and people immediately turn their swords towards you, a scenario that I've tried to avoid because I thought Nekusar wouldn't be fast (or resilient) enough to endure. You, with all the ramping and fast mana you've included in your deck, have convinced me otherwise.
No more pretending.
I kept on scrolling up and down and could not think of anything else to add and couldn't think of anything (perhaps Tainted Strike to speed things along?).
Just want to say thanks for inspiring me.
You're welcome, and thank you!
I think the thread gets less traffic because it's not a Primer and it only has a few posts in it already (I also don't have pretty card pictures at the top of the page). Primers and large threads draw more attention in general. Eventually I'll try to get enough info in here to make it an actual primer.
Tainted strike is a great card with Nekusar, makes one wheel almost lethal in itself (a good windfall can be). I don't play it personally because I try to be less reliant on Nekusar needing to be in play, but mostly because my play group plays with a 20 poison damage threshold, instead of 10 (In my opinion it should be 50% of the starting life total, as shown by 2HG rules).
I'm planning a couple small tweaks to the deck:
Cutting Forced Fruition and Nightscape Familiar for Gamble (still can't afford an Imperial Seal) and Mox Opal. Also changing the basic Mountain and Swamp and the Boseiju (coming into play tapped and the life loss has actually been hurting a bit while also being colorless). Also I haven't needed boseiju's uncounterable ability in my meta, might be more useful in others or in slower builds) into the Grixis artifact lands (not darksteel citadel though). Opal has 23 artifacts to turn it on (seems low, but remember how many cards the deck can go through in a turn), and is another 0 cost mana producing spell to help chain wheels. Forced Fruition is a great card for the deck, however after writing out my argument for Teferi's puzzle box, Fruition falls under a similar category where it is much better in the Control Nekusar (6 mana that doesn't yield immediate results doesn't belong in combo). Gamble is another cheap efficient tutor, especially after I wheel and have a full hand.
Also the full set got spoiled and there was really only one more card that I saw that might have potential value:
Dig through time: after a wheel or two basically costs UU and finds you some combination of wheels, headaches, ramp, or interaction (choose 2). It does have disadvantage when combined with time spiral & timetwister (or if opponents have rest in peace like effects). I don't think i'll be including it in my list, but could have a place in others or control lists. Let me know how it works if anyone tests it out.
don't forget herald of torment
As expected of a wedge set, there aren't too many new tools for a shard general like nekusar, especially one so focused.
We haven't gotten a new wheel yet (nor do I really expect us too), but there are a small handful of cards that are worth considering for some builds:
1. Howl of the Horde. This is a potential double twincast for only 1 extra mana (also less color requirements) if you run a decent number of creatures that can turn sideways. I especially like this if you're still running creatures like kederekt parasite or kami of the crescent moon that don't need to tap for their effects, and can be dropped early. This is also a potential key card for the control variant being able to do a sudden 20-40 damage off of a single wheel of fortune. Comparably to normal twincasts, this has a couple very nice benefits: You cast howl before you cast the spell your copying, so opponents have to guess which one to counter. And because it's a delayed trigger copying the spell, and not a spell itself, they can't counter the original spell in response to your twincast to 2-for-1 you. Even if they do counter the original spell, you still get the 2 copies.
2. Murderous Cut. Another cheap removal spell (one mana after you cast a wheel or 2) that kills anything that isn't hexproof or pro-black. This is a great option if you're having issues with specific creatures that snuff out, dismember, or blasphemous act can't get rid of. Just remember not to exile any cards you might want to cast off of yawgmoth's will, recoup, or past in flames.
3. Clever Impersonator. For an extra blue, this is phyrexian metamorph & copy enchantment gone crazy. I wouldn't run this in the hardcore combo version of the deck, but this is the best EDH clone they've ever made, and if you're playing more controlly or just good stuff, definitely try to include it in your list.
4. Ugin's Nexus. Great hate card if your meta is having issues with people abusing time walks (although stranglehold is still probably better for us). If people are blowing up your stranglehold, then try out this instead (since you get a time walk if they blow it up)
should be "another target tapped", target would come before tapped as tapped is a description of what you're allowed to target.
presuming that the abilities are correct, the proper english wording should be:
parenthesis depending if it means just creature cards, or any creature, including tokens.
forced fruition I love in the more controlly-group-violent-hugging variant you seem to be building. Get some headaches down and your as you said, it creates a great damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
I'm glad you like the list. Grim Monolith is fine, it's not nearly as efficient as crypt, but the deck just wants to dump fast mana and swap hands most of the time, so grim is fine (plus it produces 1 extra mana with mind over matter). Eventually you will want the mana crypt, since the ability to play a free mana source off of a wheel to try to chain them together is not to be understated.
Diminishing returns works as a replacement for timetwister. I was lucky enough to be able to trade in the judge basic lands I received and some spare cash to pick up my twister.
As for personal tutor, I think it's the lesser of the tutors that are already there. If you add in Temporal mastery it gets better since you'll have 2 miracles you can setup. The nice thing about Vampiric tutor, Gamble, and Imperial Seal (and potentially demonic tutor) is that they can grab mana ramp on turn 1 to make sure you get an explosive start, while also being able to grab wheels and headache cards. Mystical tutor has the benefit of being instant speed so that your opponents don't know until it's too late that you've setup a reforge the soul on top of your deck.
bloodchief ascension was in the deck for the longest time, the problem with it was that if it wasn't in play on turn 1/2, it never became active, since you were commonly comboing out in a single turn (sucks too since I had a pretty foil one for the deck). It's a much better card for the controlly build of nekusar, especially if you want to build in the mindcrank combo.
Tolarian Academy is banned in edh, and the deck doesn't have problems hitting metal craft (also it really only wants islands in play for thwart's alternative cast), so it doesn't need the liability of the artifact lands. If you end up including trinket mage, then I would probably play some of the artifact lands so he can be a sweet civic wayfinder (although he'll probably only ever grab moxes, crypt, or sol ring)
Time walks are a personal choice. They can be good for the deck to extend the combo turn (although you lose floating mana effects like waste not). The real problem is finding room for them.
Really glad to see you like the deck, and I hope you the best for build your own. Also let us know if you stumble upon any secret tech for the deck as well.
I tried to keep the counter spells to just free variants (besides swan song, which is too good and too low cost not to include). Mana drain though could definitely have a place in the deck, since all we really need is extra mana to combo off, I just don't have access to one currently besides online. Same goes for Imperial Seal.
If I had access to a mana drain, I would cut either commandeer or misdirection for it (probably commandeer).
Lion's Eye Diamond can be used, just beware that it interacts negatively with any of the "draw equal to what you had" cards (like Winds of Change and Molten Psyche) and can only really be used while you have a wheel on the stack, so if you draw into it, you can't use it to fuel your next wheel since you need to discard your hand.
Saturday evening at 9pm central time starts spoilers for Khans of Tarkir (from the Pax Party). I'll be covering some of the potential cards in this list. Also if I'm not exhausted from working an overnight shift, I hope to have at least a decent list of all the other older potential cards that didn't make it into this deck posted, even if I can't add discussion points on all of them yet.
Updated the 2nd post with card descriptions to accurately reflect what cards are currently in the decklist.
Gathering a list of cards that aren't included in the deck list that could be (such as snapcaster mage, helm of the Ghastlord, forced fruition, etc...) to discuss them (will be included as the third post of this topic along with a possible Nekusar control build). If you'd like to suggest any cards I'll add them to the list.
3 ways to produce black/red, not 4. One of which was more likely to come into play tapped because I changed the other 2 basics into islands. I also added a rainbow mana source, so I really only cut 2 sources, of which I never play either if I can play any other land in the deck. I also realized I didn't need basics of every color (path to exile is pretty weak against me, and mana rocks can let me run off islands if back to basics or blood moon is played). Islands and blue mana are much more important due to the increased number or cantrip spells, mind over matter, and foil/thwart alternative castings.
Edit: acquired a gamble tonight. Going to replace the teferi's puzzlebox with the new tutor.
You don't have to reveal for gamble since it grabs "a card" not a characteristic of a card. You may have to discard it, however if you have library of leng out then you can discard the random card to the top of your deck, and as it's going from one non-public zone to another, it's never revealed.
The next black tutor I would get is an imperial seal which is just stupidly expensive right now (hopefully they print a judge foil soon that I could get my hands on).
@Mellojoe: Glad I could help. steal away at your hearts content.
Dragonskull summit -> Mox Opal
Boseiju, Who Shelters All -> Gemstone Caverns
Mountain -> Island
Swamp -> Island
replaced the other 2 basic lands for islands with the increased number of blue dig spells and to increase the utility of foil and thwart (thwart usually doesn't have an issue with the dual lands being first priority when I fetch, foil wants those basic islands in hand though). This meant dragonskull summit had less procs. Boseiju coming into play tapped has been really annoying too.
likely going to pick up a gamble tomorrow evening if all goes to plan.
Good catch, the 2nd megrim was actually Waste Not. Waste not you were concerned about how useful the black mana is, and while it doesn't directly cast wheels, it can cast all of the artifact mana you draw to help filter into wheels. It also does a decent job of drawing cards like Geth's Grimoire. It is a very strong card, and is one of the best at generating resources to help chain wheels together. The zombies are mostly irrelevant, but are fair chump blockers as they come in untapped (unlike most newer zombie makers).
Minds Aglow is the best prosperity variant. It can make use of excessive mana from waste not, mana rocks, and mind over matter to help draw into other wheels or just kill people with underworld dreams/psychosis crawler. It is also the only prosperity that you don't have to pay for X until it resolves. In this deck you just ignore the other players can add to X clause, unless they're feeling particularly suicidal.
Still trying to find a gamble, and working out a trade for a mox opal.
I put up a list of cards I'm currently testing out in the deck:
Haven't gotten to do more than a few solitaire games with most of the cards on the list, but so far I have to say that Gilded Lotus when combined with all the additional mana ramp that's been added to the list to make it drop on turns 2-3 has been fantastic (especially since it can instantly tap to cast Molten Psyche, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall). The individual card draw spells have also been working out nicely for digging into wheels or more ramp. Also testing out some removal spell changes.
As for snapcaster mage, my issue with him in this deck is that he's not reusable out of the graveyard (well, unless you cast yawgmoth's will, in which case why aren't you just casting the instant/sorcery?) Recoup while only getting one card back (unlike past in flames, which by the way I do like, just am afraid of the excessive mana cost) is castable from the yard in a pinch. Most of the time you only need to recast one wheel effect for the game to be over, also Timetwister and Time Spiral both shuffle the yard back into the deck, so it's not uncommon to have no yard after a cast or flashback. I think Past in Flames is much better in a true storm deck that can utilize more rituals and can trip spells, this deck just wants to (in terms of instants and sorceries) recast a wheel.
So the additional card draws that I would cut would be howling mine, kami, and anvil. The temple bell and otherworld atlas combo with mind over matter, so I’ll be keeping them around. I’d lean more towards replacing with 2 or 1 mana personal draw, like ponder, preordain, impulse, etc… any others you would personally suggest?
I’m still not a fan of Puzzle Box on the combo side. Most of the time you dump your hand with acceleration and you aren’t refreshing nearly as many cards as you want, or you’re having to shuffle away wheels and just running into more rocks.
Psychosis crawler I think should probably find a place back in the deck as another headache.
High tide/bubbling muck I considered, but don’t think they generate nearly enough/consistent benefit (at least with my mana base). Muck is great with urborg, but urborg isn’t high on my land play priority. Turnabout’s a bit similar to me, in that you don’t get to choose artifacts & lands, also that it costs 4 mana. I guess it does have the nice benefit of being able to fog at its worse. Frantic search I like (especially with library of leng), although it does combine better with tide/muck.
I tried out Notion thief for awhile, and it was before I had excessive amounts of low cost ramp. I guess this is a more consistent/safe version of nekusar + helm of the ghastlord (which I’ll probably drop due to your later suggestions). I’ll give it another try.
Likely additions:
Quest for pure flame is interesting, mostly because it’s such low cost, and every draw (even mass draw from wheels) triggers it individually with underworld dreams variants, so it clicks up very quickly on your turn. Elder mastery I omit because it’s a more expensive form of helm of the ghastlord, and I want to stay away from relying on having nekusar in play.
I’m going to try out just this (although as I said above, keeping Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas).
Helm has also proven unreliable in more competitive games, as they keep Nekusar off of the board, and 9 mana + a wheel and preferably counterspell backup is a little hard to have with all those cards too.
In terms of mana ramp, I’ve been testing out mana vault and been fairly pleased with it. Even though it’s 5 mana, do you think adding back in Gilded lotus is worth it? Yes I realize it combos well with mind over matter, but if mind over matter is in play, then I’ve already won. Also thinking about adding Mox Opal to the list.
I also made a large purchase yesterday in the form of a Timetwister, and have added that to the deck.
I’ll update my current list later tonight.
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I am trying to make this deck as strong as it can possibly be in terms of combo-ing, and all help is welcome.
You're welcome, and thank you!
I think the thread gets less traffic because it's not a Primer and it only has a few posts in it already (I also don't have pretty card pictures at the top of the page). Primers and large threads draw more attention in general. Eventually I'll try to get enough info in here to make it an actual primer.
Tainted strike is a great card with Nekusar, makes one wheel almost lethal in itself (a good windfall can be). I don't play it personally because I try to be less reliant on Nekusar needing to be in play, but mostly because my play group plays with a 20 poison damage threshold, instead of 10 (In my opinion it should be 50% of the starting life total, as shown by 2HG rules).
I'm planning a couple small tweaks to the deck:
Cutting Forced Fruition and Nightscape Familiar for Gamble (still can't afford an Imperial Seal) and Mox Opal. Also changing the basic Mountain and Swamp and the Boseiju (coming into play tapped and the life loss has actually been hurting a bit while also being colorless). Also I haven't needed boseiju's uncounterable ability in my meta, might be more useful in others or in slower builds) into the Grixis artifact lands (not darksteel citadel though). Opal has 23 artifacts to turn it on (seems low, but remember how many cards the deck can go through in a turn), and is another 0 cost mana producing spell to help chain wheels. Forced Fruition is a great card for the deck, however after writing out my argument for Teferi's puzzle box, Fruition falls under a similar category where it is much better in the Control Nekusar (6 mana that doesn't yield immediate results doesn't belong in combo). Gamble is another cheap efficient tutor, especially after I wheel and have a full hand.
I also changed the Font of Mythos into Otherworld Atlas (now that I've finally acquired one. Ha! ... I'll shut up now...)