First post game thoughts (talking bout design here). In terms of the SK, I think in terms of the mafia we were fairly well off against it. The town not so much though. In terms of the name cops, if I'm reading the function on the roles right KoD was the only one That'd get much there. Toms ultimate could have penetrated but without a reason to its unlikely it ever would have been pointed in that direction. The design almost reads like its intended for mafia to go out of their way to take the SK out for the town and if they don't town auto loses. I lol'd at the phaser being listed as examples of technology spot can't use though. Was that in the original role PM? In terms of town I didn't feel like they had much power at all. Most decent abilities had to be built to over multiple days and then were capable of being easily shut down. The entirety of Town's power seemed to rest on KoD's shoulders but it, combined with the vastly hidden role discrepancy, made it semi easy to paint him as non town in the end game. It probably would have been more successful without kosa's gambit but that's a story for a different paragraph.
Speaking of other paragraphs, let's talk players. Cyth did an excellent job early game of nabbing town pants. With the behavior of town in the game I can see why auto pilot was an option later, but even then nothing much was done that would really upset the ground work on those first couple of game days. Town wise brin, silver and kosa brought it home for me. Silver played an excellent game as town and was very rarely not on point in what I feel town should be doing with their time. Brin was right along those lines as well. While he wasn't in the game as much having died earlier and being a replacement player himself, I feel like his town game was just as strong. Kosa though is my favorite type of player. The risk taker. In terms of play kosa kept it more middle of the pack but it's those positions that let you do risky things like the end game gambit. More on that below. As for scum, I think everybody but fable put in a good bit of effort. DotA pre replacement included. Fable seemed pretty content to just **** about from the start, but yeah. My favorite scum bro will have to be DV though. We had good...anti-thread chemistry? We unpaired really well is what I'm saying.
@kosa, in terms of your end game gambit, I would have done the same thing to you from a town position as well. But that's mostly to do with the timing of your gambit. That late in the game it's extremely high risk of losing it all for town. By jumping right to the thread I forced the matter. From a town!me perspective all the reasons I stated would have been true, but there would have been the added possibility that you were a scum networker as well, providing even more incentive to force the issue because of timing. With that said I understand why it wasn't possible to play it earlier.
@KoD, I actually never gamed the mod because of your flavor. My first assumption was that it was from a non canon type novel since my own role was. I didn't see anything on the mirror universe odo's page to indicate that though so I was all like true or not I can make him look shady af with this.
@Tom, your play legitimately reads as third party aligned. I hope one day you actually are (iirc, you said you hadn't had a full third party role ja?) So that the most brilliant third party performance ever is realised. Until then we'll all just be shadows of what could be.
@annorax and crew, thanks for the game. It felt like home.
Disregard any typo-corrects in the above, I'm not proofing this one.
It's pretty convenient that you magically forget what it is I actually do. Obtaining a kill is a secondary function of my role stopping ability. One that creates situations where people have claimed to have their abilities fail like Tom claimed with Silver when he targeted him in the same night that I did. But let's tuck into your claim stacked on my claim. You've claimed you can use any number of abilities in a night. This means if you have an unclaimed kill ability you can use that in addition to any number of other claimed abilities used. So saying you targeted me with two abilities that failed doesn't exclude the possibility you did throw a kill into the mix. Now you're asserting the mafia must have a Role blocker because your abilities failed yet you discount the possibility of a known town blocker targeting you because from all outward appearances you'd be vanilla. Well that logic applies to everybody that doesn't know your actual role. But let's not talk about that. Or take into account there's still a role stopper out and about that can shut down only select targets without completely shutting you down. But that aside the validity of your targeting is questionable in the first place. I don't use loyalty or latinum based abilities so I'm not a valid target for your first claimed ability. While I am Vorta I don't have a static day ability. There's currently nothing there to block. Given you've jumped from your abilities failed to you were definitely role blocked I'm having trouble believing you were told anything specific. I'd be willing to bet you were told something along the lines of your ability had no effect to anything that holds a grain of truth on targeting me though. You escalating to role block seems more of an excuse on why you couldn't have been responsible for one of the kills last night.
You're scrambling KoD. Your behavior here doesn't read town!KoD but rather caught!KoD.
@KoD, I wouldn't be out guessing the mod because I'm not asserting that he crafted your claim. What you've claimed is applicable to Odo, but not mirror universe Odo. Your flavor claim reads less as true and more of a poorly crafted fake claim.
As for Brin, you claimed your abilities failed the next night when you targeted me not when you targeted Brin. So your whole point about being role blocked isn't even applicable if true as during your initial claim you didn't say you were blocked, you said your abilities failed. There are multiple scenarios on why an ability might fail and only one where you are completely shut down. Since you specifically said your abilities failed and not that you were role blocked initially I see no reason to believe you were completely shut down.
@KoD, sure it is flavor but yours seems to be the only one disconnecting like this.
But you possibly lying aside, I think your new claim information is even more telling when you take the time to listen to what DV was gracious enough to tell us. DV seemed quite convinced there was an SK. He was also quite adamant that Brin was not a maf hit. You could say DV was trying to swerve attention away from mafs, but at that point Tom and Wheat both had DV in the town circle so there's little benefit for DV to do that as opposed to simply trying to point everybody to the town players outside of the town circle. His comment that the only way he believed mafia had killed brin was if a redirect was involved weighs it heavily in my mind that that was a true statement for him. And if we take it to be truth that DV knew the scum didn't kill Brin then we have an unaccounted for kill on our hands and unclaimed target that KoD is now claiming. Coupled with the flavor disconnect and I'm 100% certain we have our SK.
The question now is do we think it's possible there are two scum left plus an SK? If we do, we should remove the SK now, permanently eliminating a second non town kill that could wreck town's ability to hold majority in coming lynches. If we don't think its possible then it wouldn't matter if we eliminated maf first or SK first. For the time being I'm going to vote SK. Traditional balance has me thinking we are looking at 4-1-1 left which pretty much makes them both equal threats now anyways. But since all of the town votes will need to be consolidated on this I will jump to chandy if that's where cyth and wheat think we should be as the townliest among us.
@kosa, as I said I see it as either a town gambit on your part (which I find to be lacking and thus don't care to play along), or you're not town (in which case I don't care to play along), or it's factual. Risk vs reward on revealing it if factual is low vs high. If you're telling the truth then today's lynch is a solid 50/50 shot, keeping that to yourself and leaving the Lynch open to sway a third direction is dumb. Also it's been posited for quite some time that scum have daychat. If one of us is scum, then any remaining members that we'd be linked with have a good chance of knowing already what I've presented so keeping that to yourself is also dumb. As for Chandy responding, that's only relevant if none of this is true. If it is true then chandy responding is irrelevant because eventually it'll just come to the thread anyway and people will just have to decide which side of the 50/50 they fall on. But anything said in the QT would be heresay to them so why not just do it openly in the first place. If it's a lie however, you're banking on either somebody admiting to being scum so you can either say "gotcha!" and bank on the other to back you in thread or if you are that non town looking for a friend entity you'll then join unholy forces and steam roll the townie in thread with a may the better shot win type of agreement going into night. We are at a stage where secrets and games are only going to cost town. Take Tom for example. Secrets made him look shady as ****. If you're town just be open and honest and let's finish this game out right.
@KoD, mirror universe Odo was an ore processing task master for the Klingon-cardassian alliance that bashir prime killed 3 years before the dominion war started. Care to comment on the flavor disconnect?
So. Since Silver had just burned his minus it's unlikely he killed him (although not impossible if we consider the possibility he burned himself out to do it. A one for one trade in this manner isn't typically likely but if silver thought he was going to die anyway maybe?). From my perspective that makes it extremely likely to be an SK shot since we have two dead town vigs to start with then there's what I do, making the kill unlikely to come from yet another town source. Especially so since this kill wasn't claimed in the mass. To that end I have two things to address.
First, KoD what's your flavor please?
Secondly Kosa has come forth in the neighbor thread as having more to his role than he claimed yesterday. Supposedly he knows that either me or Chandy are scum. I find it suspicious there's no mention of this in the game thread though. Seems like information that town would be more than willing to share. Could be a town gambit. Or could be an attempt to make some shady friends so to speak. The whole situation combined with there likely being a non town killer floating around out there gots me uneasy though.
Because I've brought up a point worth considering? If you disagree state some reasons. You know, play the game. Sitting around doing nothing but berating people for trying while offering nothing up but statements that are akin to "Tom makes me happy in the pants so he's definitely town" don't really help things. With a dead mason partner you're the most confirmed person in the room but you seem content on acting nothing like it.
Methinks silver just accidentally confirmed he's SK. I mean why else would you operate under best case type scenario if there's no reason to do so? But if he's SK he is likely to deduct to a lower mafia number to account for himself being in the game.
@Tom, why chance a lie if you don't feel like you have to? And you've made it painfully obvious that you don't think you have to because there's no way you'll make it to majority.
@silver, I'm asserting it's not reasonable to claim mafia day 1 and expect to live. Are you disagreeing with that statement?
As for your reason, I didn't ask for the best I asked for the whole list. As for the best though, essentially what you're saying is you think Tom can single handed win the game tonight. Why? What leads you to believe that? What has he said or done that makes you believe that is the case. If that's not the case then your reasoning for leaving him be is currently invalid. And I really don't think that is the case. You simply don't care what Tom is doing. That isn't a great town mindset. If you are town that's exactly why I charged you with taking a hard look at Tom before day ends. Continuing to not care in this situation could cost town the game. Let's look at a basic example.
Let's say scum!Tom charges to a double+ vote (given the charge time I'd say triple would be more likely). Now let's say worst case scenario we started with five scum and all flips have been accurate. We are looking at three scum left. With nine currently alive, a lynch plus NK puts us at 7 alive tomorrow (worse off if there are additional NK). Again assuming the worst and no mafia die even at that minimum amount of kills scum!Tom and crew hold majority without any aid. Game, set, match. Scum win. But hey, what's the worst that could happen to town by not giving a ***** about Tom, right?
So let me get this straight you think it's unreasonable to believe that the guy that claimed to be mafia day 1 was trying to die early. So by that logic you think it's reasonable to claim mafia day 1 and not expect to die? Because that's the most unreasonable thing I've ever heard in a mafia game ever. There are really only two ways of looking at the matter. The first is probably the most common. Fable wasn't being reasonable. He was ******* off doing his own thing regardless of the consequences. In that situation reason doesn't apply to his actions because reason isn't a factor for fable. In that situation pretty much anything goes. The second is that fable was acting with a direct purpose and reason behind his actions that isn't plain to those without the full picture. But if you assume fable has a reason we cannot see just yet then you can't rule out that he wouldn't have a reason to claim another players role, because unseen things. In either event fable doing exactly what KoD is suggesting isn't unreasonable even if fables actions themselves were.
I didn't say there couldn't be those roles present. That doesn't make them the most likely answer though.
Let's go through the list then. Best to be thorough. List off every single reason town!Tom isn't claiming that role you don't know during a mass claim. Otherwise it's just a perfectly reasonable excuse for scum!Tom to not have to claim anything he doesn't want to despite mass claim.
@silver, I find it a bit laughable that you think scum death reverse millers or roles that alter flips of other players either in alignment or displayed rolename are more reasonable than "Tom has a day ability". Granted I find KoD's theory to be just as unlikely as you do, but his theory is reasonable. Probably more so than your alternatives. Personally I think it's unlikely that Tom is a name cop. I might be biased on the matter though since I did interfere with his ability N1, a point neither you nor Tom is bothering to address.
Also I suggested that Tom take the opportunity to prove his claim by targeting KoD tonight. He pretty much refused. Tell me how that's townly and okay for him given his claim is in question and he still hasn't bothered to claim his entire role yet.
Seems to me the situation is pretty obvious. Toms ultimate is ready to pop off. He's refusing to claim because he knows if he does town won't let him use it. His behavior this game hasn't been townly. As has been previously pointed out he spent most of the early game not scum hunting. He had to be prodded into doing so and even then showed that he didn't give two *****s about what town was doing as long as things weren't pointed his way. He buckles down when the heat gets turned up on him but goes back to fluffing around once it dies down. His claim is unverified and incomplete. It reads more of a safe fake claim than truth and he is unwilling to attempt to verify it. If you are town you need to do your alignment a favor and take a good hard look at Tom before this day ends since he's probably about to royally **** town over in the night.
Hey, y'all remember that time Brin died as a town name cop and then Tom claimed to also be town name cop and nobody batted an eye but then when KoD had a similar ability one shot to Chandy's ultimate everybody ******* lost their minds? Yeah this is a huge scum swerve on KoD and possibly Chandy. The major perpetrators are Tom and DV. I mentioned to Kosa that Toms comments about how he's supposedly unlynchable today made no sense unless he was banking on teammates refusing to vote for him combining with inactives not being around to vote for him to keep him out of majority range. With the inactive mod kills though that drastically changes the numbers game and all of a sudden we see this swerve?
If you are forcing players into both day and night actions you aren't protecting the integrity of the game, you're *****ting on it. The argument asserts that a Lynch and a NK are equivalent forces and that town night abilities are equivalent to maf non NK abilities. Neither one of these is very true. Furthermore it eliminates reads gained from players choice in both votes and NK options. If it came to that I'd rather just have the mod kills and move on with day from the flip information.
Strongman is a term used typically for a kill that can power through protection. It doesn't have to be though, as the emphasis of the role is the pushing past normal barriers part and not necessarily the kill. Getting hung up on the use of strong man is likely just as big of a headache as the use of mason in terms of kosa's role. I, for one, am not going to get hung up on it because of my first hand knowledge with Rax doing so (the message that delivered the link to Kosa's network QT specifically said mason) but at best I can only say it might be a bad idea to game the mod in that sense.
As for DV's role, find it believable. I've seen variants on town side that basically did the same thing. Given that we have a mystery redirector, at least two claimed role blockers, and my stop (not to mention a possible dead doctor and a claimed bulletproof) it makes design sense. Of course that is not to say the role isn't a scum role either.
@silver, I see two possibilities if the claimed role is true, first is you caught him slipping on Intel from scum QT. The second is a possible flavor allusion to a threat, much the same way the Borg is alluded to in other roles that he didn't include in his claim. DV has seemed pre-occupied in the SK department so the later seems equally possible.
First post game thoughts (talking bout design here). In terms of the SK, I think in terms of the mafia we were fairly well off against it. The town not so much though. In terms of the name cops, if I'm reading the function on the roles right KoD was the only one That'd get much there. Toms ultimate could have penetrated but without a reason to its unlikely it ever would have been pointed in that direction. The design almost reads like its intended for mafia to go out of their way to take the SK out for the town and if they don't town auto loses. I lol'd at the phaser being listed as examples of technology spot can't use though. Was that in the original role PM? In terms of town I didn't feel like they had much power at all. Most decent abilities had to be built to over multiple days and then were capable of being easily shut down. The entirety of Town's power seemed to rest on KoD's shoulders but it, combined with the vastly hidden role discrepancy, made it semi easy to paint him as non town in the end game. It probably would have been more successful without kosa's gambit but that's a story for a different paragraph.
Speaking of other paragraphs, let's talk players. Cyth did an excellent job early game of nabbing town pants. With the behavior of town in the game I can see why auto pilot was an option later, but even then nothing much was done that would really upset the ground work on those first couple of game days. Town wise brin, silver and kosa brought it home for me. Silver played an excellent game as town and was very rarely not on point in what I feel town should be doing with their time. Brin was right along those lines as well. While he wasn't in the game as much having died earlier and being a replacement player himself, I feel like his town game was just as strong. Kosa though is my favorite type of player. The risk taker. In terms of play kosa kept it more middle of the pack but it's those positions that let you do risky things like the end game gambit. More on that below. As for scum, I think everybody but fable put in a good bit of effort. DotA pre replacement included. Fable seemed pretty content to just **** about from the start, but yeah. My favorite scum bro will have to be DV though. We had good...anti-thread chemistry? We unpaired really well is what I'm saying.
@kosa, in terms of your end game gambit, I would have done the same thing to you from a town position as well. But that's mostly to do with the timing of your gambit. That late in the game it's extremely high risk of losing it all for town. By jumping right to the thread I forced the matter. From a town!me perspective all the reasons I stated would have been true, but there would have been the added possibility that you were a scum networker as well, providing even more incentive to force the issue because of timing. With that said I understand why it wasn't possible to play it earlier.
@KoD, I actually never gamed the mod because of your flavor. My first assumption was that it was from a non canon type novel since my own role was. I didn't see anything on the mirror universe odo's page to indicate that though so I was all like true or not I can make him look shady af with this.
@Tom, your play legitimately reads as third party aligned. I hope one day you actually are (iirc, you said you hadn't had a full third party role ja?) So that the most brilliant third party performance ever is realised. Until then we'll all just be shadows of what could be.
@annorax and crew, thanks for the game. It felt like home.
Disregard any typo-corrects in the above, I'm not proofing this one.
You're scrambling KoD. Your behavior here doesn't read town!KoD but rather caught!KoD.
As for Brin, you claimed your abilities failed the next night when you targeted me not when you targeted Brin. So your whole point about being role blocked isn't even applicable if true as during your initial claim you didn't say you were blocked, you said your abilities failed. There are multiple scenarios on why an ability might fail and only one where you are completely shut down. Since you specifically said your abilities failed and not that you were role blocked initially I see no reason to believe you were completely shut down.
But you possibly lying aside, I think your new claim information is even more telling when you take the time to listen to what DV was gracious enough to tell us. DV seemed quite convinced there was an SK. He was also quite adamant that Brin was not a maf hit. You could say DV was trying to swerve attention away from mafs, but at that point Tom and Wheat both had DV in the town circle so there's little benefit for DV to do that as opposed to simply trying to point everybody to the town players outside of the town circle. His comment that the only way he believed mafia had killed brin was if a redirect was involved weighs it heavily in my mind that that was a true statement for him. And if we take it to be truth that DV knew the scum didn't kill Brin then we have an unaccounted for kill on our hands and unclaimed target that KoD is now claiming. Coupled with the flavor disconnect and I'm 100% certain we have our SK.
The question now is do we think it's possible there are two scum left plus an SK? If we do, we should remove the SK now, permanently eliminating a second non town kill that could wreck town's ability to hold majority in coming lynches. If we don't think its possible then it wouldn't matter if we eliminated maf first or SK first. For the time being I'm going to vote SK. Traditional balance has me thinking we are looking at 4-1-1 left which pretty much makes them both equal threats now anyways. But since all of the town votes will need to be consolidated on this I will jump to chandy if that's where cyth and wheat think we should be as the townliest among us.
vote: KoD
@KoD, mirror universe Odo was an ore processing task master for the Klingon-cardassian alliance that bashir prime killed 3 years before the dominion war started. Care to comment on the flavor disconnect?
So. Since Silver had just burned his minus it's unlikely he killed him (although not impossible if we consider the possibility he burned himself out to do it. A one for one trade in this manner isn't typically likely but if silver thought he was going to die anyway maybe?). From my perspective that makes it extremely likely to be an SK shot since we have two dead town vigs to start with then there's what I do, making the kill unlikely to come from yet another town source. Especially so since this kill wasn't claimed in the mass. To that end I have two things to address.
First, KoD what's your flavor please?
Secondly Kosa has come forth in the neighbor thread as having more to his role than he claimed yesterday. Supposedly he knows that either me or Chandy are scum. I find it suspicious there's no mention of this in the game thread though. Seems like information that town would be more than willing to share. Could be a town gambit. Or could be an attempt to make some shady friends so to speak. The whole situation combined with there likely being a non town killer floating around out there gots me uneasy though.
@silver, I'm asserting it's not reasonable to claim mafia day 1 and expect to live. Are you disagreeing with that statement?
As for your reason, I didn't ask for the best I asked for the whole list. As for the best though, essentially what you're saying is you think Tom can single handed win the game tonight. Why? What leads you to believe that? What has he said or done that makes you believe that is the case. If that's not the case then your reasoning for leaving him be is currently invalid. And I really don't think that is the case. You simply don't care what Tom is doing. That isn't a great town mindset. If you are town that's exactly why I charged you with taking a hard look at Tom before day ends. Continuing to not care in this situation could cost town the game. Let's look at a basic example.
Let's say scum!Tom charges to a double+ vote (given the charge time I'd say triple would be more likely). Now let's say worst case scenario we started with five scum and all flips have been accurate. We are looking at three scum left. With nine currently alive, a lynch plus NK puts us at 7 alive tomorrow (worse off if there are additional NK). Again assuming the worst and no mafia die even at that minimum amount of kills scum!Tom and crew hold majority without any aid. Game, set, match. Scum win. But hey, what's the worst that could happen to town by not giving a ***** about Tom, right?
I didn't say there couldn't be those roles present. That doesn't make them the most likely answer though.
Let's go through the list then. Best to be thorough. List off every single reason town!Tom isn't claiming that role you don't know during a mass claim. Otherwise it's just a perfectly reasonable excuse for scum!Tom to not have to claim anything he doesn't want to despite mass claim.
Also I suggested that Tom take the opportunity to prove his claim by targeting KoD tonight. He pretty much refused. Tell me how that's townly and okay for him given his claim is in question and he still hasn't bothered to claim his entire role yet.
Seems to me the situation is pretty obvious. Toms ultimate is ready to pop off. He's refusing to claim because he knows if he does town won't let him use it. His behavior this game hasn't been townly. As has been previously pointed out he spent most of the early game not scum hunting. He had to be prodded into doing so and even then showed that he didn't give two *****s about what town was doing as long as things weren't pointed his way. He buckles down when the heat gets turned up on him but goes back to fluffing around once it dies down. His claim is unverified and incomplete. It reads more of a safe fake claim than truth and he is unwilling to attempt to verify it. If you are town you need to do your alignment a favor and take a good hard look at Tom before this day ends since he's probably about to royally **** town over in the night.
vote: Tom
As for DV's role, find it believable. I've seen variants on town side that basically did the same thing. Given that we have a mystery redirector, at least two claimed role blockers, and my stop (not to mention a possible dead doctor and a claimed bulletproof) it makes design sense. Of course that is not to say the role isn't a scum role either.
@silver, I see two possibilities if the claimed role is true, first is you caught him slipping on Intel from scum QT. The second is a possible flavor allusion to a threat, much the same way the Borg is alluded to in other roles that he didn't include in his claim. DV has seemed pre-occupied in the SK department so the later seems equally possible.