What do you guys think will happen to modern Burn if this new mulligan rule will be accepted? People can mulligan to leyline with almost 98% change to have it in opener.
Maybe go naya again with more creatures?
For Mythic Championship II in London, we're going to be trying out a new mulligan rule that we have been playtesting internally for some time. We believe the new rule smooths out opening hand decisions even more, though it certainly has some implications for formats like Modern.
The rule we'll be testing in London is as such: When you mulligan for the Nth time, you draw seven cards, then put N cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
So, for example, let's say you're taking your second mulligan of a game, what we often call a mulligan to five. You would draw seven cards, select two, and place those two on the bottom of your library in any order. Then you would decide whether to keep or mulligan again.
Burn, being low-variance, is definitely among the decks that benefit least from this proposed rule. However, Burn still has plenty of creatures and access to enchantment hate if necessary. I think graveyard-based decks are much more likely to get hated out by Leylines than Burn.
What do we think of adding Kor Firewalker to the side? With the rise in popularity of Mono Red Phoenix and the consistent high prevalence of Burn, maybe it’s better now than ever. I know it has been a very narrow sideboard card in the past, only good in the mirror really, but now with another red deck on the rise it finds a home against two decks in the meta instead of just one
Personally I think Path/Searing/Graveyard hate is plenty against Phoenix. I've only played against it a few times but the deck seems fairly fragile. Classic Burn is stronger and more resilient in my opinion.
It may have been discussed before, but is Surgical Extraction a reasonable play against Dredge/Bridge decks? Also, I feel that Lightning Helix is the correct cut from RW for Skewer.
Sup burnbros. Haven't played in a couple months. I'd like to report that I've had great success in the past using Spike Jester in the sideboard. He's great against decks lacking creatures and/or removal like Amulet, Tron and Scapeshift. He can also put control players in a tight spot.
Given that I run 3 Jesters in the side, could 1-2 Chance for Glory be a viable sideboard option? I also run 2 Lavamans main. I'd probably use it in creature-heavy matchups.
Good morning all,
I'm happy to report two consecutive undefeated outings playing Burn. Thanks again for input and guidance.
My opponents:
Jeskai Control (2x)
G Tron
Bant Spirits
Mardu Pyromancer
Skred Dragons
Burn
Hollow One with Bridge from Below and 0-drops like Hangarback Walker (we agreed to draw but this would've been a tough one to win)
My List:
MB:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Grim Lavamancer
The reason for the Marsh Flats is that I don't own any more red fetches. Hopefully if I continue to win I will soon be able to replace them. I intend to cut an Inspiring Vantage for another Mountain upon doing so.
Spike Jester and Mana Tithe were my sideboard MVPs. I was able to defeat Jeskai twice (and Tron) on the back of Spike Jester, and Mana Tithe helped me slow down my opponents in the mirror and against Spirits (in addition to saving my Swiftspear from an opposing Helix even though it resolved). Sometimes I wished that Rakdos Charm was Smash to Smithereens but I like the rest of the sideboard enough that I'm willing to keep it for its versatility.
I realize my sideboard is unconventional and will need to undergo more thorough and rigorous testing, but thus far I am pleased with the list. Let me know what you think and happy burning!
Hello burnbros, new pilot here. Many thanks to elcon and the resident posters for a fantastic primer. I recently built burn and finally realized what I've been missing out on.
I played a fairly standard Boros list for my first event, maining 3 Searing Blaze, 3 Skullcrack, and 2 Lavamans.
The main takeaway I noticed is that every decision can (and often does) decide the game.
Round 2 I played the mirror, which was exhilarating. I ended up winning 2-0, but I had a tough time making the 'correct' decisions.
My first question: how does one properly sideboard? I sided out my eidolons since I was on the draw game 2. My second question is more specific:
We both played T1 Shock Fetch Guide and then passed turn 2. At the end of my turn he helixed me. I had the option to either Helix or Skullcrack but elected to Helix because I didn't want to go to 10. We both ended up flooding for a few turns but I drew better and pulled it out. How could I have played differently/more efficiently?
This list essentially differs from others in that there are Runed Halos and Mana Tithes in place of additional discard/removal. Rather than traditional tapout Tokens, Turns 1 and 2 often involve jostling for board presence, and having the ability to hold up either a counterspell or flash tokens T2 comes in handy. As mentioned previously, Discard, Tithe and Halo work quite well together. I love having a singleton Dismember and Anguished Unmaking as backup. Path and Tithe are a nonbo in theory, but in practice hardly ever get in each other's way (plus I like having an emergency fetch option in Path). Zealous Persecution comes in handy just enough to make the cut, serving as an occasional surprise blowout/boardwipe, though I don't feel justified in running more than one.
The Sideboard is a perpetual work in progress, though I'm pretty set on the Disenchants, Timely Reinforcements, and Duress. Other contenders include a 4th Runed Halo, Surgical Extraction, Kambal, Pithing Needle, and perhaps more Duress.
Hey guys, first I'd like to say it's great to be back (finally made a Twitch) on the best forum for the best deck of all time. All hail Tokens. I've been reading the past few months of discussion, thanks to you guys for keeping it going. I'm sure there are many lurkers who appreciate your efforts.
Some thoughts:
It seems that the first existential question any Tokens pilot faces is this: How much black?
An *ideal* play might be this:
T1 Discard > T2 Virtue > T3 Spectral/Souls > T4 Sorin/Gideon
Against many decks, this is a very good sequence. Unfortunately, there are many decks which can easily overcome this line of play, like Tron, Storm, Moon and hyper-Aggro. In the handful of LGS I've played at these are all fairly common decks in my experience.
It is my opinion that the critical turn in many matchups, at least for us, is Turn 2. Far too many decks have us dead by the time we're ready to attack. Our black cards only help us so much in this sense. Bitterblossom doesn't really do anything for us until the game gets off the ground, but our problem is usually surviving the early turns as we tend to dominate the mid/late-game. Collective Brutality often falls short as well on account of its failure to a)kill bigger creatures at instant speed or b) get rid of artifacts/PWs/enchantments. I believe that even Liliana is too slow/narrow (not to mention the only card I really want to pitch to her is Lingering Souls).
This is further exacerbated by the the age-old problem of painful/inconsistent mana, especially if we fail to find a Sorin/Vault. Between Shocks/Fetches/Thoughtseize/Bitterblossom, we frequently put ourselves in lethal range.
For these reasons, I believe that the optimal BW Tokens build includes only a splash of black. The aforementioned cards are extremely powerful, but I feel that they work better in a Control/Deadguy shell.
With that being said I'd like to propose two inclusions: Mana Tithe and Runed Halo. I've found these two cards to be extremely powerful in playtesting, especially in tandem with discard.
First, Mana Tithe: This card is perfect in the early game, where most decks are looking to curve out. Unlike discard, it can be used against opposing draws/interaction. Countering any T1-3 play gives us a huge tempo swing. Sometimes all we need is to trip up Bogles/Tron/Infect/Burn/Elves. In addition to the gotcha! factor, many decks will play extremely conservatively after having their critical play countered. As the art on the card implies, Mana Tithe effectively swings the game for us on the draw. The momentum gained by countering a T2 play with our T1 can't be understated.
Secondly, Runed Halo. This is often considered a sideboard card, but in our deck it is a powerhouse mainboard. First of all, very few decks can handle a resolved Halo, especially Game 1. One of our primary issues against creature decks is chumping with valuable tokens and failing to close games out as a result. With Halo we can blank multiple ground attackers while our flyers clean up with ease, not to mention the complete shut-down effect this has on decks like Hollow One, Shadow, Storm, Infect, and Bogles. It also deals with a lot of pesky cards like Skred, Valakut and manlands (and in cases where targeted removal isn't enough like Dredge/Living End). After all, we like to nullify opposing removal while maximizing our own. The problem I find with having a lot of removal is that sometimes it's dead, and other times it's still not enough. Halo provides a much bigger net while freeing up valuable space in our deck.
I personally run 4 Mana Tithe and 2-3 Runed Halo depending on the week and I am always happy to see them. There is no greater satisfaction than countering a Cryptic Command for W or naming Gutshot with Halo. Halo is a solid topdeck, while Tithe is usually no worse than discard. I like to play a single Pack Rat, which is a superior discard outlet in the late-game (though I can see an argument for keeping around a Collective Brutality or two).
Regarding Spectral Procession: I used to dislike it for many reasons previous posters mentioned, but now I can't live without it (I run 3). Three (often 2/2+ vigilance) flyers for 3 is incredibly useful for blocking/closing out games (not to mention synergy with Legion's Landing and Windbrisk Heights, if you run it.
Hey guys, I'd love to hear your thoughts/suggestions on what you think I would have fun playing. I used to play BW/Mardu Tokens (except I don't have Lili) but then I took a break from Magic for a bit.
Cards I have:
Most non-green fetches/shocks (sans Tarns), Tokens-related cards, various sideboard cards, Esper cards sans Snap, Cryptic and Clique.
Color preference:
1. Black
2. White
3. Blue/Red
What was the other color again? (I actually like green when I play it but don't feel like buying Goyf/Hierarch/fetches/shocks)
I'll start off with decks/styles I don't want to play: Tron, Living End, Dredge, Storm, Bogles, Infect.
I enjoy oppressing my opponent and prefer 'fair' Magic so I would be happy playing either tempo or control, but I'm not too keen on aggro. I'd like to play a deck that has multiple win-cons and unique/interactive matches, FNM competitive at least.
I like rogue/non-traditional decks but am open to playing anything besides the aforementioned. Emeria is a deck I have recently considered playing.
A few cards I like:
Pack Rat
Necrotic Sliver
Sun Titan
Porphyry Nodes
Budget: ~$300-500 (for now, I wouldn't mind buying Snap/Lili though)
Hey guys, I don't play storm but it's hilariously sad to see Wizards hit you AGAIN. I've heard some people suggest that Surgical Extraction is essentially GitProbe without the cantrip.
Mostly trying to get a good creature lineup going. I think Butcher is the closet we have to a good top end. IDK, just spitballing, really. I kinda wanted Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Ajani Vengeant here, but I'm not sure if they were really needed.
When I used Ajani he usually ended up being a Lightning Helix. I like Butcher a lot.
Young Pyro was similarly underwhelming when I played him, and he's a pretty bad topdeck. You might like Mogg War Marshal instead. The odds of Pyro getting you 3 tokens is usually pretty low. MWM can help keep you alive against aggro and is delicious Butcher food.
Looks fun. I play a similar version but without any creatures.
Intangible Virtue is a bomb for token builds. It essentially doubles our clock and lets us attack without worrying about keeping back blockers (most decks can't block fliers)
I don't think it's a good idea to have creatures in a token build, especially if the creatures are not creating tokens. One of Tokens' primary strengths is that it nullifies opponents' spot removal.
I think Bob is highly overrated and unnecessary for our deck as he's got a big fat bullseye on him. Jund doesn't care so much if their Bob gets zapped because they can follow up with something like Lili or Goyf. We can't afford to do nothing on Turn 2.
Bitterblossom struggles for the same reason. Particularly against aggro, Bob and Bitterblossom do not do enough for us fast enough.
Lightning Helix is good for mitigating life loss from Bob, BB, Shocks/Fetches, Thoughtseize, etc.
I personally wouldn't run 4 Paths because giving away a basic land can actually put us significantly behind. Maybe run something like 3-4 Bolt/1-3Helix/2-3Push/2-3Path.
Sideboard looks strong. Zealous Persecution is really good against Infect/Affinity/Merfolk/Elves and sometimes helps kill a Bogle.
I think 23 lands are enough, though I have gotten land-screwed before. Luckily, Tokens can stay alive on 1-2 lands for a few turns.
I haven't tested it yet, but I suspect Mogg War Marshal and Extricator of Sin might be solid cards. MWM makes sure you survive Turn 2/3/4 usually, and Extricator of Sin can take off a lot quicker than BitterBlossom. Turning on delirium should be easy enough because graveyard instant/sorcery/land should be a given, and MWM is probably the easiest value creature to get into the grave if they don't kill our Sorin/blow up an enchantment. These also have good synergy with Fatal Push
Happy brewing!
I have already played Tokens with mardu colours or BW, I don't remember, maybe both.
Today, I want a Tokens Deck with Dark Confident because I love this card. I didn't like Intangible Virtue.
Turn 2, it's not what we want. Like Jund or Junk, we want a strong card which scare the opponent. But I agree, Bob will die immediately and the spot removal could have killed only 1 token, that is better.
The problem, according to the discussion, is that we need a Tarmo in mardu's colours.
Discard cards can help to take the removals and so let alive Bob. And there are decks without removals then Bob turn 2 will be very efficient.
Or maybe we can replace Bob post side against decks with a lot of spot removals.
Or a deck with these spot removals, will it replace them post side ? "A Tokens deck ?!, I will enter my Anger of gods and/or Damnation and remove my Terminate . Hum, there are Dark confident , it's a problem, I will need always my spot removals." It's what I think about Jund post side game for exemple. Lightning Helix, I don't like it because its mana cost is different than that we want turns 1 and 2. Turn 1 = Discard card so we need black. We will search a swamp with a fetch. If there is ligthning helix, we will search a ravland because we want red or white turn 1 and the other turn 2,- 3 Life points, and if we want play Thoughtseize, it's -5 life points. It's why I don't play this card.
For instant cards, I am very simple : 3 playsets. I have really never thought to change this.
It's fine to dislike Intangible Virtue, but it's probably the best card in Tokens. Discard (to take their threat, not removal)>Virtue>Souls>Sorin usually=GG against most decks. T2 BB or Bob> T3 Souls (that's the only 3-drop in your deck right now) just doesn't have the same impact.
Mardu needs a Goyf if it's trying to be midrange. If the goal is to be a good midrange deck, why not just play Jund? This issue is frequently brought up in this thread. Jund can T1 Discard>T2 Goyf>T3 Lili and swing with a potentially 5/6 Goyf. Mardu can never hope to match that kind of efficiency unless Wizards unbans Stoneforge Mystic.
I'd argue that Tokens is a different style than traditional midrange and anti-synergistic with Bob. I know what it's like to really want to play a card, but I don't think you're going to have much success running Bob in Tokens. Sure, he gets you card advantage, but the extra cards you're drawing aren't going to help you win. Bob, Abbott, and Shambling Vent aren't beefy finishers and BB/Souls are reallllyyyy slow without Virtue or Sorin. Your current build, IMO, lacks inevitability and will struggle to close out games. If you're looking for a Token/midrange combination, I recommend something like ThePurpleGhost's build a few posts up.
I would like to play this deck. I will be more often against my friend's decks: Evo Kiki, Abzan Collected, Grixis Delver without Pyro, Jund without Flayer, Ad Nauseam, Valakut Breach, Dredge,Infect and Affinity.
Creatures are here for the card advantage. Abbot of Keral Keep is not played before turn 4 or 5 because of Lingering Souls but it can give a spot removal. Bob is a must have. If it is not killed, it's a Big advantage and the mana cost of the Others cards is tuned to it.
Instants are all spot removal. Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile because they are the best. And I play the New card Fatal Push. In modern, it will kill a lot of creatures for only 1 Mana.
Revolt is maybe difficult to activate. There are 7 fetchs in the deck, but a lot of tokens on the battlefield will die because of removals or attack of opponent's creature. Maybe I would take 1 Terminate and 3 Fatal Push, because it will be hard against Grixis decks.
Sorceries are discard cards essentialy. They are effective against combo/control decks and I will need them for the turn 1-2 to be more proactive.
There are 8 Token generators. Bitterblossom needs to be play turn 2-3, it's a very good generator. Lingering Souls is a powerful card.
Sorin is like a kill. With Bitterblossom on the battlefield, it's a strong association. And tokens can protect it to reach the -6.
I play 23 lands. I tested some games on the internet. It can be difficult to have 4 lands at turn 4, What do you think about 23 or 24 ?
Sideboard is not finished. I need all advices for it.
So What do you think about this Mardu Token with card advantage ? I'm here to hear all things that can improve my deck.
Looks fun. I play a similar version but without any creatures.
Intangible Virtue is a bomb for token builds. It essentially doubles our clock and lets us attack without worrying about keeping back blockers (most decks can't block fliers)
I don't think it's a good idea to have creatures in a token build, especially if the creatures are not creating tokens. One of Tokens' primary strengths is that it nullifies opponents' spot removal.
I think Bob is highly overrated and unnecessary for our deck as he's got a big fat bullseye on him. Jund doesn't care so much if their Bob gets zapped because they can follow up with something like Lili or Goyf. We can't afford to do nothing on Turn 2.
Bitterblossom struggles for the same reason. Particularly against aggro, Bob and Bitterblossom do not do enough for us fast enough.
Lightning Helix is good for mitigating life loss from Bob, BB, Shocks/Fetches, Thoughtseize, etc.
I personally wouldn't run 4 Paths because giving away a basic land can actually put us significantly behind. Maybe run something like 3-4 Bolt/1-3Helix/2-3Push/2-3Path.
Sideboard looks strong. Zealous Persecution is really good against Infect/Affinity/Merfolk/Elves and sometimes helps kill a Bogle.
I think 23 lands are enough, though I have gotten land-screwed before. Luckily, Tokens can stay alive on 1-2 lands for a few turns.
I haven't tested it yet, but I suspect Mogg War Marshal and Extricator of Sin might be solid cards. MWM makes sure you survive Turn 2/3/4 usually, and Extricator of Sin can take off a lot quicker than BitterBlossom. Turning on delirium should be easy enough because graveyard instant/sorcery/land should be a given, and MWM is probably the easiest value creature to get into the grave if they don't kill our Sorin/blow up an enchantment. These also have good synergy with Fatal Push
Mardu has never lacked good, efficient removal. Push is good, but having access to bolt, terminate, and path are already better. Anyone considering removing terminates for pushes should reconsider their eldrazi and mono U Tron matchups. What we need is an effective clock in the two drop slot. We'll continue watching spoilers and unbannings, (Free Stoneforge!) here's hoping.
Yes it should be generally agreed Fatal Push doesn't add anything to Mardu. The card is reserved for decks that want a pseudo-lightning bolt but clearly we are not that deck.
Stoneforge Mystic would definitely make Mardu more viable. But one would question why it's not just as good in Abzan/ Esper / BW builds.
What Mardu needs is a threat that's three mana RBW that is insanely good. If we had Butcher of the Horde as a 3-drop would it be played in Mardu? My guess is that it wouldn't be. We need something more resilient but just as powerful offensively. Maybe like this for instance:
P/T 4/4
Lifelink
Haste
Vigilance
First Strike
It's obviously undercosted but still a fair card. Terminate/ Path/ revolted Push / Dismember kills it. Even though it dies to removal, I gave it haste so that it has an opportunity to stabilize us. It also mitigates the slowness of a 3-drop. I thought about giving it flying but I think that doesn't match well with Mardu colors - having the best removals - and that's more of a blue-color scheme. Vigilance also helps stabilize. Basically a superior Batterskull that cannot be recurred (well except with Kolaghan's). Tell me if you guys think this is too OP.
And I specifically want it to be 3-mana in Mardu colors otherwise Jund or Abzan can probably utilize it better.
Seems pretty solid
Maybe something like
Cost: RB
P/T 3/3
Haste
Lifelink
W: Gains pro-color of choice OR Vigiliance OR First Strike, only activate once per turn (or something like that)
Burn, being low-variance, is definitely among the decks that benefit least from this proposed rule. However, Burn still has plenty of creatures and access to enchantment hate if necessary. I think graveyard-based decks are much more likely to get hated out by Leylines than Burn.
Personally I think Path/Searing/Graveyard hate is plenty against Phoenix. I've only played against it a few times but the deck seems fairly fragile. Classic Burn is stronger and more resilient in my opinion.
It may have been discussed before, but is Surgical Extraction a reasonable play against Dredge/Bridge decks? Also, I feel that Lightning Helix is the correct cut from RW for Skewer.
Given that I run 3 Jesters in the side, could 1-2 Chance for Glory be a viable sideboard option? I also run 2 Lavamans main. I'd probably use it in creature-heavy matchups.
I'm happy to report two consecutive undefeated outings playing Burn. Thanks again for input and guidance.
My opponents:
Jeskai Control (2x)
G Tron
Bant Spirits
Mardu Pyromancer
Skred Dragons
Burn
Hollow One with Bridge from Below and 0-drops like Hangarback Walker (we agreed to draw but this would've been a tough one to win)
My List:
MB:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Boros Charm
4x Lightning Helix
3x Searing Blaze
3x Skullcrack
1x Shard Volley
4x Inspiring Vantage
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Marsh Flats
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Blood Crypt
2x Mountain
SB:
4x Rakdos Charm
3x Path to Exile
4x Mana Tithe
3x Spike Jester
1x Skullcrack
The reason for the Marsh Flats is that I don't own any more red fetches. Hopefully if I continue to win I will soon be able to replace them. I intend to cut an Inspiring Vantage for another Mountain upon doing so.
Spike Jester and Mana Tithe were my sideboard MVPs. I was able to defeat Jeskai twice (and Tron) on the back of Spike Jester, and Mana Tithe helped me slow down my opponents in the mirror and against Spirits (in addition to saving my Swiftspear from an opposing Helix even though it resolved). Sometimes I wished that Rakdos Charm was Smash to Smithereens but I like the rest of the sideboard enough that I'm willing to keep it for its versatility.
I realize my sideboard is unconventional and will need to undergo more thorough and rigorous testing, but thus far I am pleased with the list. Let me know what you think and happy burning!
I played a fairly standard Boros list for my first event, maining 3 Searing Blaze, 3 Skullcrack, and 2 Lavamans.
The main takeaway I noticed is that every decision can (and often does) decide the game.
Round 2 I played the mirror, which was exhilarating. I ended up winning 2-0, but I had a tough time making the 'correct' decisions.
My first question: how does one properly sideboard? I sided out my eidolons since I was on the draw game 2. My second question is more specific:
We both played T1 Shock Fetch Guide and then passed turn 2. At the end of my turn he helixed me. I had the option to either Helix or Skullcrack but elected to Helix because I didn't want to go to 10. We both ended up flooding for a few turns but I drew better and pulled it out. How could I have played differently/more efficiently?
Gladly!
Tokens/Accessory
2x Legion's Landing
3x Raise the Alarm
4x Lingering Souls
3x Spectral Procession
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Pack Rat
Interaction/Disruption
4x Mana Tithe
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Path to Exile
1x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Anguished Unmaking
3x Runed Halo
1x Zealous Persecution
Land:
4x Marsh Flats
3x Flooded Strand
2x Godless Shrine
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Shambling Vent
1x Windbrisk Heights
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Westvale Abbey
2x Plains
1x Swamp
SB:
3x Disenchant
3x Timely Reinforcements
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Damping Sphere
2x Duress
This list essentially differs from others in that there are Runed Halos and Mana Tithes in place of additional discard/removal. Rather than traditional tapout Tokens, Turns 1 and 2 often involve jostling for board presence, and having the ability to hold up either a counterspell or flash tokens T2 comes in handy. As mentioned previously, Discard, Tithe and Halo work quite well together. I love having a singleton Dismember and Anguished Unmaking as backup. Path and Tithe are a nonbo in theory, but in practice hardly ever get in each other's way (plus I like having an emergency fetch option in Path). Zealous Persecution comes in handy just enough to make the cut, serving as an occasional surprise blowout/boardwipe, though I don't feel justified in running more than one.
The Sideboard is a perpetual work in progress, though I'm pretty set on the Disenchants, Timely Reinforcements, and Duress. Other contenders include a 4th Runed Halo, Surgical Extraction, Kambal, Pithing Needle, and perhaps more Duress.
Some thoughts:
It seems that the first existential question any Tokens pilot faces is this: How much black?
Black offers the following (among others):
Bitterblossom
Fatal Push
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Collective Brutality
Liliana of the Veil
An *ideal* play might be this:
T1 Discard > T2 Virtue > T3 Spectral/Souls > T4 Sorin/Gideon
Against many decks, this is a very good sequence. Unfortunately, there are many decks which can easily overcome this line of play, like Tron, Storm, Moon and hyper-Aggro. In the handful of LGS I've played at these are all fairly common decks in my experience.
It is my opinion that the critical turn in many matchups, at least for us, is Turn 2. Far too many decks have us dead by the time we're ready to attack. Our black cards only help us so much in this sense. Bitterblossom doesn't really do anything for us until the game gets off the ground, but our problem is usually surviving the early turns as we tend to dominate the mid/late-game. Collective Brutality often falls short as well on account of its failure to a)kill bigger creatures at instant speed or b) get rid of artifacts/PWs/enchantments. I believe that even Liliana is too slow/narrow (not to mention the only card I really want to pitch to her is Lingering Souls).
This is further exacerbated by the the age-old problem of painful/inconsistent mana, especially if we fail to find a Sorin/Vault. Between Shocks/Fetches/Thoughtseize/Bitterblossom, we frequently put ourselves in lethal range.
For these reasons, I believe that the optimal BW Tokens build includes only a splash of black. The aforementioned cards are extremely powerful, but I feel that they work better in a Control/Deadguy shell.
With that being said I'd like to propose two inclusions: Mana Tithe and Runed Halo. I've found these two cards to be extremely powerful in playtesting, especially in tandem with discard.
First, Mana Tithe: This card is perfect in the early game, where most decks are looking to curve out. Unlike discard, it can be used against opposing draws/interaction. Countering any T1-3 play gives us a huge tempo swing. Sometimes all we need is to trip up Bogles/Tron/Infect/Burn/Elves. In addition to the gotcha! factor, many decks will play extremely conservatively after having their critical play countered. As the art on the card implies, Mana Tithe effectively swings the game for us on the draw. The momentum gained by countering a T2 play with our T1 can't be understated.
Secondly, Runed Halo. This is often considered a sideboard card, but in our deck it is a powerhouse mainboard. First of all, very few decks can handle a resolved Halo, especially Game 1. One of our primary issues against creature decks is chumping with valuable tokens and failing to close games out as a result. With Halo we can blank multiple ground attackers while our flyers clean up with ease, not to mention the complete shut-down effect this has on decks like Hollow One, Shadow, Storm, Infect, and Bogles. It also deals with a lot of pesky cards like Skred, Valakut and manlands (and in cases where targeted removal isn't enough like Dredge/Living End). After all, we like to nullify opposing removal while maximizing our own. The problem I find with having a lot of removal is that sometimes it's dead, and other times it's still not enough. Halo provides a much bigger net while freeing up valuable space in our deck.
I personally run 4 Mana Tithe and 2-3 Runed Halo depending on the week and I am always happy to see them. There is no greater satisfaction than countering a Cryptic Command for W or naming Gutshot with Halo. Halo is a solid topdeck, while Tithe is usually no worse than discard. I like to play a single Pack Rat, which is a superior discard outlet in the late-game (though I can see an argument for keeping around a Collective Brutality or two).
Regarding Spectral Procession: I used to dislike it for many reasons previous posters mentioned, but now I can't live without it (I run 3). Three (often 2/2+ vigilance) flyers for 3 is incredibly useful for blocking/closing out games (not to mention synergy with Legion's Landing and Windbrisk Heights, if you run it.
Thanks again to everyone, and happy Tokening!
Cards I have:
Most non-green fetches/shocks (sans Tarns), Tokens-related cards, various sideboard cards, Esper cards sans Snap, Cryptic and Clique.
Color preference:
1. Black
2. White
3. Blue/Red
What was the other color again? (I actually like green when I play it but don't feel like buying Goyf/Hierarch/fetches/shocks)
I'll start off with decks/styles I don't want to play: Tron, Living End, Dredge, Storm, Bogles, Infect.
I enjoy oppressing my opponent and prefer 'fair' Magic so I would be happy playing either tempo or control, but I'm not too keen on aggro. I'd like to play a deck that has multiple win-cons and unique/interactive matches, FNM competitive at least.
I like rogue/non-traditional decks but am open to playing anything besides the aforementioned. Emeria is a deck I have recently considered playing.
A few cards I like:
Pack Rat
Necrotic Sliver
Sun Titan
Porphyry Nodes
Budget: ~$300-500 (for now, I wouldn't mind buying Snap/Lili though)
Thanks in advance for input!
Keep the storm brewin bros!
When I used Ajani he usually ended up being a Lightning Helix. I like Butcher a lot.
Young Pyro was similarly underwhelming when I played him, and he's a pretty bad topdeck. You might like Mogg War Marshal instead. The odds of Pyro getting you 3 tokens is usually pretty low. MWM can help keep you alive against aggro and is delicious Butcher food.
It's fine to dislike Intangible Virtue, but it's probably the best card in Tokens. Discard (to take their threat, not removal)>Virtue>Souls>Sorin usually=GG against most decks. T2 BB or Bob> T3 Souls (that's the only 3-drop in your deck right now) just doesn't have the same impact.
Mardu needs a Goyf if it's trying to be midrange. If the goal is to be a good midrange deck, why not just play Jund? This issue is frequently brought up in this thread. Jund can T1 Discard>T2 Goyf>T3 Lili and swing with a potentially 5/6 Goyf. Mardu can never hope to match that kind of efficiency unless Wizards unbans Stoneforge Mystic.
I'd argue that Tokens is a different style than traditional midrange and anti-synergistic with Bob. I know what it's like to really want to play a card, but I don't think you're going to have much success running Bob in Tokens. Sure, he gets you card advantage, but the extra cards you're drawing aren't going to help you win. Bob, Abbott, and Shambling Vent aren't beefy finishers and BB/Souls are reallllyyyy slow without Virtue or Sorin. Your current build, IMO, lacks inevitability and will struggle to close out games. If you're looking for a Token/midrange combination, I recommend something like ThePurpleGhost's build a few posts up.
Looks fun. I play a similar version but without any creatures.
Intangible Virtue is a bomb for token builds. It essentially doubles our clock and lets us attack without worrying about keeping back blockers (most decks can't block fliers)
I don't think it's a good idea to have creatures in a token build, especially if the creatures are not creating tokens. One of Tokens' primary strengths is that it nullifies opponents' spot removal.
I think Bob is highly overrated and unnecessary for our deck as he's got a big fat bullseye on him. Jund doesn't care so much if their Bob gets zapped because they can follow up with something like Lili or Goyf. We can't afford to do nothing on Turn 2.
Bitterblossom struggles for the same reason. Particularly against aggro, Bob and Bitterblossom do not do enough for us fast enough.
Lightning Helix is good for mitigating life loss from Bob, BB, Shocks/Fetches, Thoughtseize, etc.
I personally wouldn't run 4 Paths because giving away a basic land can actually put us significantly behind. Maybe run something like 3-4 Bolt/1-3Helix/2-3Push/2-3Path.
Sideboard looks strong. Zealous Persecution is really good against Infect/Affinity/Merfolk/Elves and sometimes helps kill a Bogle.
I think 23 lands are enough, though I have gotten land-screwed before. Luckily, Tokens can stay alive on 1-2 lands for a few turns.
I haven't tested it yet, but I suspect Mogg War Marshal and Extricator of Sin might be solid cards. MWM makes sure you survive Turn 2/3/4 usually, and Extricator of Sin can take off a lot quicker than BitterBlossom. Turning on delirium should be easy enough because graveyard instant/sorcery/land should be a given, and MWM is probably the easiest value creature to get into the grave if they don't kill our Sorin/blow up an enchantment. These also have good synergy with Fatal Push
Happy brewing!
Seems pretty solid
Maybe something like
Cost: RB
P/T 3/3
Haste
Lifelink
W: Gains pro-color of choice OR Vigiliance OR First Strike, only activate once per turn (or something like that)