Ah, similar to Burn in that regard: creature removal gets blanked since all you want to do is hit early; late game their creatures chump. Not gonna lie, I dream of jamming 4 Rancor and smashing away, but that's a different deck. I think with my first step honing this into a dedicated agro. I've got excellent path to follow with this discussion while I acquire peices for the upgrades. You guys have obviously been answering these questions for awhile ;-)
Switching gears, this was an interesting deck from the weekly mtgo round up: https://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/modern/the-gunslingers/w-b-control/1319013
Heavy on walkers, and main deck cards that are normally seen in the side, to really control creatures as a result. I'm really starting to see the different variations based on strategy and accounting for different meta environments.
Yes, that is B/W Gideon. Not a fan tbh, too controlish for me. I still want to swing with my creature as early as possible while still able to disrupt.
MagicYio is right, the only equipment that i see fit in token is basilisk collar. against decks like eldrazi it acts as a removal.
Cards have tight slot in token, so usually you dont want a 3 mana do nothing or 4 mana do nothing. This is why bladehold is bad compared to other 4cost threats that we already have in form of sorin and gideon.
Well, if you dont mind me pitching in, I think runed halo is not so well positioned now. Same goes for zealous.
Additionally, running both stony and sphere is not exactly what I like. This is a very personal perspective, but I prefer to have multiples of a single card aimed at some matchups than SB composed of 1-ofs mainly. Both approaches are perfectly legit, but, if I were you, I would run stony and sphere together since it offers some redundancy. I believe sphere + pithing is a much better combination, covering a wider spectrum.
Dont know about your meta, but without changing the overall idea of your SB, I would go:
I added 1 surgical effect because it feels really low on GY answers.
Maybe you're right, i feel like halo has been a bit underwhelming for me. It's still a catch-all card, but i guess i already have answers for things other than valakut and reality smasher. The rule change also sucks, since valakut can now target all the PW on board.
However, it's still not enough for me to completely ditch halo. I felt like i still need a catch-all card that i can put in for matches.
I would still try your SB configuration when there is another modern tourney later. For now, focusing on standard
Feels wrong yeah. The card is very powerful. However, I think DS is definitely worth a try, and, after thinking about it for a while, I believe it is a sensitive well-based opinion.
Dont get me wrong, i would 100% jam in dem spheres to make tron matchup easier. Just still not sure what to cut, have to adjust to local meta.
Granted some of these decks run Engineered Explosives, but if you are boarding Stony Silence against that, you are prooooobably doing something wrong. RDW can cast multiple spells same turn, but I see this too marginal to consider it a point here.
Decks that are equally affected by both pieces of SB are:
• KCI: Doesn’t matter if we lock their abilities or prevent them from casting a million spells in a row. The final effect is the same. Stony Silence is harder, but the final results is equal in my opinion.
• Jund: Damping Sphere makes Bloodbraid Elf a 5 CMC creature, but also taxes our spells (path + tokens same turn) so it is not worth it in my opinion.
• Eldrazi: Tron or not, Eldrazi Temple is no longer a concern in any case. Here both pieces of SB are slightly worse than against regular Tron.The chance to numb a Walking Ballista makes Stony Silence great. On the other hand, one could argue as well that without big mana going on… it won´t be that bad. Not sure about this one. It will definitely depend on the rest of our SB.
• Affinity: they may cast several spells in a row, but by t2 they will most likely be already empty handed. Stony Silence is game.
• Lantern Control: Stony Silence locks them out of the game until they draw an answer. Damping Sphere helps making more difficult for them to empty their hand, but that is far less impactful than the former.
• Humans, Hatebears, Merfolk... Vial decks: I have seen people boarding Stony Silence in these matchups as a 1-of and I don’t think is bad. For me, this is a not very important part of the discussion, since you might as well bring Pithing Needle and maybe randomly cover some Eldrazi Displacer, but still worth mentioning.
• Tron: Even if they manage to get Tron turn 3, we can still get them with Damping Sphere. Stony Silence is only worth it here if you play it on t2 and if you are on the play, and the might even get natural Tron anyway… We don’t care about all the eggs anymore and the only things we are missing now would be Walking Ballista and Oblivion Stone, but without big mana, they are less of an issue.
• Elves: Prevents crazy combos where they fill up the board with creatures using lords and Heritage Druid shenanigans.
• Infect: taxes their manabase heavily and makes them much less likely to kill you all of a sudden.
• Bloom Titan: Makes their dual lands tap for a single mana, AND COLORLESS. Huge point there. Also delays their Summoner’s pact + Primeval Titan combo.
Marginally better:
• Hollow One: Prevents multiple Hollow Ones to be played same turn (probably even the first one). As counterpart, it might be too slow, if it comes turn 2.
• Bogles: Slows them down as well, although I don´t see it being too effective against them, might be wrong.
• Scapeshift: Taxes their Summoner’s pact + Primeval Titanand their Bring to Light plays. Also interesting against suspended spells, taxing their whole turn. Not sure if worth including, but definitely worth considering.
• Reanimator: After they successfully cast Griselbrand, they will probably try to go off by casting shoals or the like. Dumping Sphere should help with this problem, although might be a bit too late for it to work.
• Living End: Also taxes their Living End cascades.
From all the matchups where any of these cards is really relevant, the following are unfavourable/not favourable for us:
• KCI, Lantern, Tezzerator, Ad Nauseam, Tron, Eldrazi, Elves, and Bloom Titan.
In these group, 4 are Stony Silence “dependent”, 4 are Damping Sphere “dependent”, and Eldrazi is a bit ambiguous. If we remove the latter and KCI, as are influenced by both smilarly, we have 3 and 3 respectively. Let us check if Stony Silence and Damping Sphere are our only answers to them:
• Lantern: Lantern is a horrible matchup, but mainly because they have the chance to do three things: 1) play Ensnaring Bridge, 2) make us discard our artefact hate, 3) prevent us from drawing anything else. I do believe that it could still be manageable relying only in our Disenchant effects. Stony Silence gives us time to draw resources, but doesn´t win us the game. Disenchant/hand disruption + Surgical Extraction on their bridges is our best bet.
• Tezzerator: They usually bring 3-4 Abrupt decay after their first match (probably won), so us playing Stony Silence usually ends up in a card for card trade. In any case, I find the best way to disrupt this deck is with GY hate: Surgical Extraction is great here. Stony Silence is nevertheless very powerful. Pithing Needle is relevant in the matchup anyway for the Tezzeret kill, so we could use it to lock the combo as well if needed.
• Ad Nauseam: This is where I think we lose the most by giving up Stony Silence. It really slows our opponent down. Main plan is still disruption (possibly followed by extraction effects), lifegain, and clock them, so losing Stony Silence wouldn’t be that bad, but still hurtful.
• Tron: Other than the two pieces of disruption here mentioned, our best plan is disruption, lucky Pithing Needle, and Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction a Tron piece. We all know how tough this matchup is, so I guess… we need at least one of these two pieces to face them and stand a chance.
• Eldrazi: As I said before, I am not sure at all about which card would do better, but I believe that Damping Sphere could be favoured if we make use of our Pithing Needles to lock pesky Walking Ballistas or Endbringers. Other than that, removal is probably our best asset for the matchup. 4 Path to Exile please!
• Elves: Early disruption, removal, a bit of chumping, and a timely Wrath of God are our best bets. I don’t think I would side in Damping Sphere because we should be able to keep their mana production under control with our disruption. A random Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx can be stopped with Ghost Quarter. The matchup is bad, and if we lose turn 2 casting something only to slow them down a bit, we might give up on our chances to win.
Summing up, I feel that there is more to win from using Damping Sphere than from abandoning Stony Silence. The best way to implement it would be in combination with 2 Pithing Needles. From these matchups, I believe the ones we will be facing the most in general (depends on your meta), are tron and eldrazi, so, at least me, I will be using the following SB plan for now:
Comments are very welcome, so please share your wisdom!
I still need to test how many damping sphere i want. Leaving stony feels so wrong to me, but on the other hand damping sphere is a necessary evil. This is my sideboard (not fixed)
2 damping sphere
2 stony
2 disenchant
1 gideon
1 zealous
2 brutality
1 wrath
2 halo
2 rip
Might want to cut zealous for a singleton surgical.
Gazpoole, just wanted to say thanks for being this active since joining this thread, imo you've really been enriching his already great community !
Btw, guys, do you think we would all get some use out of a B/W Tokens discord? Are there enough of us to make this worthwhile?
Thanks, I really appreciate it. I’m not the most experienced and skilled player but I’m 100% devoted to this deck and really love the discussion we have going here.
I don’t feel like there has been a huge number of people here recently? Maybe I’m missing something but I’ve only seen half a dozen or so regular posters since I’ve been here. Something to consider nonetheless.
Still one of the most welcoming forums out there, pretty cool people playing a great deck.
Hey guys! This is my report. 33 People, 6 rounds of madness, very diverse meta with nothing being dominant.
R1: BG Rock(2-0)
Not much to tell, just BW token doing its thing against typical BGx deck.
R2: Valakut Breach (0-2)
Not much to tell either sadly just titan breach doing its thing, second game opp got insane draw turn 1 suspend search into turn 3 simian > breach > titan for 17 damage, i'm on 18 and a bitterblossom. GG
R3: Infect (2-0)
Pretty easy matchup. G1 i got IOK on apostle's blessing, making the game super easy. Game 2 just BW token doing its thing. Having many blockers sure is great:)
R4 Bushwacker Zoo (2-0)
Turn 2 auriok champion both games. Bae is MVP of the match as on G1 she gained me like 12 life alone.
R5 Tron (1-2)
Match is so dire G1. Game 2 i actually got there. Game 3 made a fatal mistake. Could've played both spectral and stony. Decided to play spectral, ditch stony to liliana. Forgot that i have fifth mana in form of LL. Very sad in the end opp drew Oblivion stone, got opp to 2 life (beat with vents) but a nature's claim on own's star net him the time to make the game in his favor.
R6 Abzan Goodstuff (2-0)
Your typical voice, renegade rallier, Resto Angel deck. Opp made a mistake game 2, forgot that i still have a blocker left and make a poor combat turn.
Got 10th in the end. I know i deserved it, but it just sucks.
Some things that i need to point out:
1. I really liked playing this version of the deck, to me it's the perfect combination of cards possible. I suggest you guys to try it out!
2. LL has proven itself to be great! Even a singleton can be great.
3. For damping sphere, of course i would be adding 2 to the board, maybe moving zealous and a surgical away. Still need testing to be sure what to change.
Sorry if my explanations on the match were short, because there was very little to tell.
This is the final list that I will use today. Ditch tron matchup cause of how bad the matchup is even after adding GQ. Hope to dodge both tron and ponza.
2 Collective Brutality
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
[/deck]
1. I got lucky that i didn't meet ANY tron on my Match-Ups. There were actually some trons running around, although most of them got beaten by faster aggressive decks. So i want to prepare myself to face Tron by adding 2 GQ as a way to slow them down and a way to fight back with surgical post board. That's also why i add another SE to the side.
2. By changing my mana base, i can't toy around anymore with auriok champion (you'll always be my waifu). I'm a bit worried on shadow matchup, as usually i auto win the game when i have auriok on board. I add 2 brutalities to the main to change with AC. I still have another 2 in side so that i have enough hate for burn. Brutalities are also fine against control and combo matchups so i really like the versatility.
3. I practically don't like gideon that much on the main, because sometimes it's just a win-more card. I'd prefer it on side and only put him in on matches that i need fast clocks/grind matches.
4. 1 Raise is just there tbh, i dunno why but i always liked that singleton copy of raise the alarm. I never liked 4 BB, and i might never will.
5. I'm still tinkering around LL, and i found them quite lackluster, it's just not there for me. I might use 1 as a late-game tech changing Raise in the end.
6. I really miss AC :'(
All and all, i've been using this deck so long, i have just realized i use this deck for 3 years now IIRC. Love this deck and you guys <3
THAT is supposed to be Solemn Visitor
Brutality slot is originally 2 Auriok Champion. I wanna try something to replace AC but none is good enough. I might do start/finish again later to test. I personally use LL instead of Start/Finish. Was just tinkering around
HI Guys! Been so long since i can chat here and i see a lot of interesting things! I have tweaked my mana base to fight tron, only adding 2 GQ and cutting 2 fetch. Do you guys think it's enough? And also, by this change, i also cut completely 2 auriok champion and add 2 additional Brutality to the main, so i bring a playset split 2-2 between main and side. Is this correct? Also, i've tested with gideon shell, didn't like it very much. I reverted back to my old list with some changes:
Still need testing, struggling Post-Board against RG Eldrazi as they bring in engineered explosive and natural state. Living end still stays abyssmal, Tron i havent tested yet. GQ is showing some promises when fighting azcanta.
Should i bring a singleton pithing needle to fight these many activated abilities?
Yes, that is B/W Gideon. Not a fan tbh, too controlish for me. I still want to swing with my creature as early as possible while still able to disrupt.
Cards have tight slot in token, so usually you dont want a 3 mana do nothing or 4 mana do nothing. This is why bladehold is bad compared to other 4cost threats that we already have in form of sorin and gideon.
Maybe you're right, i feel like halo has been a bit underwhelming for me. It's still a catch-all card, but i guess i already have answers for things other than valakut and reality smasher. The rule change also sucks, since valakut can now target all the PW on board.
However, it's still not enough for me to completely ditch halo. I felt like i still need a catch-all card that i can put in for matches.
I would still try your SB configuration when there is another modern tourney later. For now, focusing on standard
Dont get me wrong, i would 100% jam in dem spheres to make tron matchup easier. Just still not sure what to cut, have to adjust to local meta.
I still need to test how many damping sphere i want. Leaving stony feels so wrong to me, but on the other hand damping sphere is a necessary evil. This is my sideboard (not fixed)
2 damping sphere
2 stony
2 disenchant
1 gideon
1 zealous
2 brutality
1 wrath
2 halo
2 rip
Might want to cut zealous for a singleton surgical.
Still one of the most welcoming forums out there, pretty cool people playing a great deck.
You can check out mine at page 198, i put down my list and also boarding plan for my list.
Liliana is worth it. If you can control the game with liliana, usually you win the game. Never bad when you have an insurance vs combo decks.
R1: BG Rock(2-0)
Not much to tell, just BW token doing its thing against typical BGx deck.
R2: Valakut Breach (0-2)
Not much to tell either sadly
R3: Infect (2-0)
Pretty easy matchup. G1 i got IOK on apostle's blessing, making the game super easy. Game 2 just BW token doing its thing. Having many blockers sure is great:)
R4 Bushwacker Zoo (2-0)
Turn 2 auriok champion both games. Bae is MVP of the match as on G1 she gained me like 12 life alone.
R5 Tron (1-2)
Match is so dire G1. Game 2 i actually got there. Game 3 made a fatal mistake. Could've played both spectral and stony. Decided to play spectral, ditch stony to liliana. Forgot that i have fifth mana in form of LL. Very sad in the end opp drew Oblivion stone, got opp to 2 life (beat with vents) but a nature's claim on own's star net him the time to make the game in his favor.
R6 Abzan Goodstuff (2-0)
Your typical voice, renegade rallier, Resto Angel deck. Opp made a mistake game 2, forgot that i still have a blocker left and make a poor combat turn.
Got 10th in the end. I know i deserved it, but it just sucks.
Some things that i need to point out:
1. I really liked playing this version of the deck, to me it's the perfect combination of cards possible. I suggest you guys to try it out!
2. LL has proven itself to be great! Even a singleton can be great.
3. For damping sphere, of course i would be adding 2 to the board, maybe moving zealous and a surgical away. Still need testing to be sure what to change.
Sorry if my explanations on the match were short, because there was very little to tell.
3 Bitterblossom
1 Legion's Landing
4 Lingering Souls
3 Spectral Proccession
2 Start//Finish
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
2 Auriok Champion
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Marsh Flats
2 WIndswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
3 Godless Shrine
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Fetid Heath
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Shambling Vent
2 Surgical extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
2 Runed Halo
2 Collective Brutality
2 Stony Silence
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
Sideboard Plans:
BGx
in: Gideon , Zealous
Out: 1 thoughtseize, 1 iok
Human
in: zealous, brutality, ***, Gideon
out: thoughtseize, 2 iok
RG Eldrazi
in: halo, gideon, ***
out: ac, 2 iok
Affinity
in: halo, disenchant, stony, zealous, 1 brutality (draw)
out: AC, LL, Thoughtseize, Liliana
in: halo, disenchant, stony, zealous (play)
out: AC, LL, 2 Thoughtseize, Liliana
Shadow
in: halo, rip, gideon
out: 2 thoughtseize, 2 iok, 1 push
Burn
in: brutality, halo, gideon, zealous
out: thoughtseize, BB
Ponza
in: Gideon, zealous, disenchant
out: AC, LL, 1 iok
Storm
in: Halo, brutality, surgical, rip, gideon
out: ac, PTE, LL, Start//Finish,
Living - friggin - END
in: surgical, rip, brutality, gideon, zealous, ***
out: push, ac, path
Valakut-Breach/Shift
in: surgical, halo, gideon, zealous
out: ac, push, LL
Control
in: Gideon, RIP, Zealous, Brutality, Surgical
out: ac, push, 3 path.
Tron (Big Middle Finger)
in: Gideon, zealous, stony, surgical, disenchant
out: AC, Push, 3 Path
Bogle
in: halo, ***, Disenchant, Surgical, Zealous, Gideon,
out: ac, push, path
Any feedback?? Really appreciate them
Wish me luck guys, 1.30 hour to 1st round pairing
3 Bitterblossom
2 Start//Finish
3 Spectral Procession
1 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Auriok Champion
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Windswept Heath
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Fetid Heath
2 Shambling Vent
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Timely Reinforcement
1 Nihil Spellbomb
And this is the newest version that i currently test
[/deck]
Tokens
3 Bitterblossom
2 Legion's Landing
3 Spectral Procession
1 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Fetid Heath
2 Shambling Vent
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Collective Brutality
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
[/deck]
1. I got lucky that i didn't meet ANY tron on my Match-Ups. There were actually some trons running around, although most of them got beaten by faster aggressive decks. So i want to prepare myself to face Tron by adding 2 GQ as a way to slow them down and a way to fight back with surgical post board. That's also why i add another SE to the side.
2. By changing my mana base, i can't toy around anymore with auriok champion (you'll always be my waifu). I'm a bit worried on shadow matchup, as usually i auto win the game when i have auriok on board. I add 2 brutalities to the main to change with AC. I still have another 2 in side so that i have enough hate for burn. Brutalities are also fine against control and combo matchups so i really like the versatility.
3. I practically don't like gideon that much on the main, because sometimes it's just a win-more card. I'd prefer it on side and only put him in on matches that i need fast clocks/grind matches.
4. 1 Raise is just there tbh, i dunno why but i always liked that singleton copy of raise the alarm. I never liked 4 BB, and i might never will.
5. I'm still tinkering around LL, and i found them quite lackluster, it's just not there for me. I might use 1 as a late-game tech changing Raise in the end.
6. I really miss AC :'(
All and all, i've been using this deck so long, i have just realized i use this deck for 3 years now IIRC. Love this deck and you guys <3
Brutality slot is originally 2 Auriok Champion. I wanna try something to replace AC but none is good enough. I might do start/finish again later to test. I personally use LL instead of Start/Finish. Was just tinkering around
3 Bitterblossom
2 Legion's Landing
3 Spectral Procession
1 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Fetid Heath
2 Shambling Vent
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
Still need testing, struggling Post-Board against RG Eldrazi as they bring in engineered explosive and natural state. Living end still stays abyssmal, Tron i havent tested yet. GQ is showing some promises when fighting azcanta.
Should i bring a singleton pithing needle to fight these many activated abilities?