ML Berlin, would banning the card ENLIGHTENED TUTOR be enough to solve your concerns? (instead of banning all the good blue cantrips?).
I can see a good argument that this white card crosses all reasonable boundaries, but Brainstorm and Ponder and the other blue cantrips are acceptable. Why? Because a blue player cannot endlessly cantrip or cast many clunky tutors like Fabricate or Tezzeret the Seeker against a deck as fast as Yokai and Jokaz Wild's Mono Red Aggro.
But as to the card Enlightened Tutor, well.....that is one extremely powerful tutor!! Even I must admit that this white card tests the limits of tolerance.
Also, you mention the card Force of Will, as if it is our only defence against the combos, but there are other good cards which fight most of the combos, like Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Reclamation Sage, Qasali Pridemage, Aven Mindcensor, Nevermore, Slaughter Games and many more. You can even go and search for your Pithing Needle with Trinket Mage or Fabricate.
I believe in the motto "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" (as ML_Berlin mentioned in a previous thread).
So, what is the current problem in s100? In my opinion, there is no problem currently. The CMS format has a very balanced metagame (with a good spread of aggro, midrange, combo and control decks). I love s100 because I can play a variety of decks with interesting cards and the games tend to be "intense!".
I don't think that any bans/unbans are necessary. The format is healthy. I don't think that people leave our community because they faced a Splinter Twin combo in one of their rounds.
Is Combo warping our Format?
I agree with stsung that Combo decks are not necessarily un-fun, for either player. For example, 2 or 3 weeks ago, I ran a White/Green Midrange deck which had a combo involving Marit Lage from the card Dark Depths. The combo was not the focus of the deck, but it was an extra win condition. The combo worked successfully in one match, and did not occur in my other matches. Against stsung, I managed to resolve the combo 3 times in the same game, and stsung defeated all 3 Marit-Lage tokens, and I lost the match. It was a fun and interesting match.
If any deck leads to quick wins/losses, it is Mono Red Aggro. I can imagine a person saying "I faced 2 red aggro decks. I lost very quickly and did not feel like a fun game of Magic was played". This criticism is not fair. Mono Red is a legitimate strategy in all formats. When they win, they usually win quickly. Equally I do not believe that it is fair to target our criticism to combo decks.
I also believe that part of the fun is seeing what strategies other people are using and trying to find solutions. Look at my sideboard from the last tournament - at least half the sideboard is focused on the RED BURN matchup. I have little graveyard hate, no Natural Order hate (like Hallowed Moonlight, Containment Priest etc), and I am happy with that choice because I faced 2 aggro matchups out of 4 matches (one involving Mono Red, and the other using heavy red with other support colors).
Sideboards do matter, and so do maindeck choices. If, for example, you are worried about Natural Order, there are cards/decks which handle it. You are able to come to this forum and ask for recommendations on how to deal with certain combos, strategies etc, and I am sure that friendly and helpful advice will be given to you. You can also use #s100 chat room during, before or after a tournament to discuss tactics).
The Criteria for Banning Cards
When you vote, I recommend you vote to ban a card if all of the following conditions apply:
1. The card seriously warps the format, leading to an unhealthy meta (for example, a significant inbalance of archetypes).
2. The card causes widespread resentment in the community (not just resentment from one or two salty players who wish to vent about a loss).
3. Most of all, the card leads to matches which feel the same each time. Part of the fun of s100 is that only a small portion of the library appears in each game. Variety is the spice of s100. This is why Wizards banned all the worst tutors, and I agree with their decision (and with our community's decision to ban other tutors like Entomb).
Do you agree that this 3-prong criteria is fair and appropriate? If not, do you have any other criteria?
Conclusion
In conclusion, I do not believe that change to the current CMS Community Ban List is required.
(I also believe that the last un-bannings which the community voted on previously were fair. For example, I think it is fine to allow blue players to cast Brainstorm and Ponder. One copy of each will not break anything).
* Birthing Pod: This should stay legal. It is powerful, but it must be used with supporting cards, and can be easily removed.
* Natural Order: This should stay legal, if Bribery stays legal (and Bribery will stay legal if the many previous comments in this thread prevail). It is not appropriate to say to the Green players: "Sorry, no more Natural Order for you, but we Blue players get to keep our Bribery!". Bribery is only 1 mana more expensive than Natural Order, and Bribery does not require the blue player to sacrifice a creature, and Bribery does not require the blue player to add to his deck mana-expensive bombs like Progenitus or Primeval Titan, and Bribery can search for any creature, not only green creatures. In addition, if we ban Natural Order, the blue players will be able to say: "I am happy because I can counter your Natural Order very easily because it's a 4 mana sorcery, but you non-blue players will not be able to easily counter my Bribery or bounce the creature, so thanks for allowing me to steal your Primeval Titan!".
We are an active community. A small one, but a consistently active one, as proven by this weekly tournament.
A number of us play casual s100 games during the week (usually by chatting to each other using the Buddy system, and then manually challenging). Feel free to add me if you like (Michelle_Wong on Magic online).
In summary, our matches fire much less frequently than Commander, but this means that the games tend to be more social. And as you say, we don't use the broken ban list from Commander, so the games are much more enjoyable in my opinion.
I know the Sensei's opinion about the card "Coercive Portal", and I smiled when I saw the Sensei collect his 2-for-1 against the card.
Yokai, I am very happy you are joining us now, because you will punish people for playing slow, ponderous decks. Hopefully you will scare away the blue control players!
I have now caught up on my reading. Interesting discussions you guys had. Wow, the hate for Dig Through Time was real! I will stand up and defend the honor of Dig Through Time during the next formal vote.
This was my favourite quote from the discussions (@ML_Berlin):
"Players say: It's hard to find players for casual games, especially for the not so popular formats! ` WoTC say: We eliminate all those formats on Mtgo, problem solved.
WOTC say: We already tried to remove the Tribal format from Mtgo 18 month ago.
After the storm of protest, WoTC said: 'We promise, there will always be a Tribal format on Mtgo'!
WoTC say: And we learned, we first closed all our official forums to remove the common platforms for the protesters, then afterwards, 14 months after our promise, we removed all those formats, including Tribal, of course."
That is so nice of people to choose to refrain from using Cloudpost, out of compassion for their fellow Mages.
I also will abstain from Cloudpost this week, choosing to become a pure Black Mage.
I discovered that the card NECROPOTENCE is showing as Legal when I searched the Heirloom Legality Checker. And it is not listed as a banned card on page 1 of this forum (as at the time of posting this message). Does this mean that I can go wild with 4 copies of this card and go to card advantage heaven?
Dear ML_Berlin, may I ask if you could kindly open the next Chainsaw event on Gatherling? Thanks.
I can see a good argument that this white card crosses all reasonable boundaries, but Brainstorm and Ponder and the other blue cantrips are acceptable. Why? Because a blue player cannot endlessly cantrip or cast many clunky tutors like Fabricate or Tezzeret the Seeker against a deck as fast as Yokai and Jokaz Wild's Mono Red Aggro.
But as to the card Enlightened Tutor, well.....that is one extremely powerful tutor!!
Also, you mention the card Force of Will, as if it is our only defence against the combos, but there are other good cards which fight most of the combos, like Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Reclamation Sage, Qasali Pridemage, Aven Mindcensor, Nevermore, Slaughter Games and many more. You can even go and search for your Pithing Needle with Trinket Mage or Fabricate.
So, what is the current problem in s100? In my opinion, there is no problem currently. The CMS format has a very balanced metagame (with a good spread of aggro, midrange, combo and control decks). I love s100 because I can play a variety of decks with interesting cards and the games tend to be "intense!".
I don't think that any bans/unbans are necessary. The format is healthy. I don't think that people leave our community because they faced a Splinter Twin combo in one of their rounds.
Is Combo warping our Format?
I agree with stsung that Combo decks are not necessarily un-fun, for either player. For example, 2 or 3 weeks ago, I ran a White/Green Midrange deck which had a combo involving Marit Lage from the card Dark Depths. The combo was not the focus of the deck, but it was an extra win condition. The combo worked successfully in one match, and did not occur in my other matches. Against stsung, I managed to resolve the combo 3 times in the same game, and stsung defeated all 3 Marit-Lage tokens, and I lost the match. It was a fun and interesting match.
If any deck leads to quick wins/losses, it is Mono Red Aggro. I can imagine a person saying "I faced 2 red aggro decks. I lost very quickly and did not feel like a fun game of Magic was played". This criticism is not fair. Mono Red is a legitimate strategy in all formats. When they win, they usually win quickly. Equally I do not believe that it is fair to target our criticism to combo decks.
I also believe that part of the fun is seeing what strategies other people are using and trying to find solutions. Look at my sideboard from the last tournament - at least half the sideboard is focused on the RED BURN matchup. I have little graveyard hate, no Natural Order hate (like Hallowed Moonlight, Containment Priest etc), and I am happy with that choice because I faced 2 aggro matchups out of 4 matches (one involving Mono Red, and the other using heavy red with other support colors).
Sideboards do matter, and so do maindeck choices. If, for example, you are worried about Natural Order, there are cards/decks which handle it. You are able to come to this forum and ask for recommendations on how to deal with certain combos, strategies etc, and I am sure that friendly and helpful advice will be given to you. You can also use #s100 chat room during, before or after a tournament to discuss tactics).
The Criteria for Banning Cards
When you vote, I recommend you vote to ban a card if all of the following conditions apply:
1. The card seriously warps the format, leading to an unhealthy meta (for example, a significant inbalance of archetypes).
2. The card causes widespread resentment in the community (not just resentment from one or two salty players who wish to vent about a loss).
3. Most of all, the card leads to matches which feel the same each time. Part of the fun of s100 is that only a small portion of the library appears in each game. Variety is the spice of s100. This is why Wizards banned all the worst tutors, and I agree with their decision (and with our community's decision to ban other tutors like Entomb).
Do you agree that this 3-prong criteria is fair and appropriate? If not, do you have any other criteria?
Conclusion
In conclusion, I do not believe that change to the current CMS Community Ban List is required.
(I also believe that the last un-bannings which the community voted on previously were fair. For example, I think it is fine to allow blue players to cast Brainstorm and Ponder. One copy of each will not break anything).
See you next week,
Michelle
* Birthing Pod: This should stay legal. It is powerful, but it must be used with supporting cards, and can be easily removed.
* Natural Order: This should stay legal, if Bribery stays legal (and Bribery will stay legal if the many previous comments in this thread prevail). It is not appropriate to say to the Green players: "Sorry, no more Natural Order for you, but we Blue players get to keep our Bribery!". Bribery is only 1 mana more expensive than Natural Order, and Bribery does not require the blue player to sacrifice a creature, and Bribery does not require the blue player to add to his deck mana-expensive bombs like Progenitus or Primeval Titan, and Bribery can search for any creature, not only green creatures. In addition, if we ban Natural Order, the blue players will be able to say: "I am happy because I can counter your Natural Order very easily because it's a 4 mana sorcery, but you non-blue players will not be able to easily counter my Bribery or bounce the creature, so thanks for allowing me to steal your Primeval Titan!".
You are most welcome. We look forward to see what decks you will bring to the table! I have no doubts that you will cope against us!
We are an active community. A small one, but a consistently active one, as proven by this weekly tournament.
A number of us play casual s100 games during the week (usually by chatting to each other using the Buddy system, and then manually challenging). Feel free to add me if you like (Michelle_Wong on Magic online).
In summary, our matches fire much less frequently than Commander, but this means that the games tend to be more social. And as you say, we don't use the broken ban list from Commander, so the games are much more enjoyable in my opinion.
Regarding today's Chainsaw Massacre, the best moment of the tournament in my opinion was as follows:
Yokai casts Coercive Portal
The_Sensei casts Reclamation Sage, targeting the Coercive Portal.
I know the Sensei's opinion about the card "Coercive Portal", and I smiled when I saw the Sensei collect his 2-for-1 against the card.
Yokai, I am very happy you are joining us now, because you will punish people for playing slow, ponderous decks. Hopefully you will scare away the blue control players!
See you all on Saturday. I am plotting with a new deck...
It was a nice finals to watch (Grixis Control vs Jeskai Control). The Grixis Control deck out-controlled the Jeskai deck.
This was my favourite quote from the discussions (@ML_Berlin):
"Players say: It's hard to find players for casual games, especially for the not so popular formats! `
WoTC say: We eliminate all those formats on Mtgo, problem solved.
WOTC say: We already tried to remove the Tribal format from Mtgo 18 month ago.
After the storm of protest, WoTC said: 'We promise, there will always be a Tribal format on Mtgo'!
WoTC say: And we learned, we first closed all our official forums to remove the common platforms for the protesters, then afterwards, 14 months after our promise, we removed all those formats, including Tribal, of course."
I look forward to reading the older forum posts.
I also will abstain from Cloudpost this week, choosing to become a pure Black Mage.
I discovered that the card NECROPOTENCE is showing as Legal when I searched the Heirloom Legality Checker. And it is not listed as a banned card on page 1 of this forum (as at the time of posting this message). Does this mean that I can go wild with 4 copies of this card and go to card advantage heaven?