What do you think about SB options for Graveyard hate in Kiki Evo/Chord/Company list?
I have been strugling with living end for a few weeks now, so I decided to didcate more SB cards for graveyard hate since Im poorly weaponed for this fight.
In theory, I see my deck(if anyone remmeber, Im the Kiki Evo guy) not bad positioned vs. Liiving End, but in games its all different. In first game, my best cards are Voices, Evolutions(since sacing creature will bring it back when opponend goes on), Paths, 1-off Thragtusk and ofc 1-off Ooze. After SB, I bring in Sigarda(guess its gameover if I resolve, but I never resolved her sadly and I have been playing many games vs. Living End), Fulminator(good to slow them and it will come back eventionaly), Sin Collector(better than some MB cards), Slaughter Games(also like Sigarda, nerver draw it when needed), Eidolon of Rhetoric(Okay, this card made me 2 times very mad. 2 weeks in raw I played him T2, I evo bird into this guy, and my opponent both times T2 Shriekmaw it. I like Eidolon much more than Cannonist but this situations make me question about switching them), Ghostly Prison(I board this card sometimes in and sometimes I dont. Living End sometimes have really fast start through cycling Wraits and early cascade spells and this card ruin their plan aggresive plan), and last card that I bring in is Celestial Purge.
Things I board out is something like: 1-2 Bolts, 1 Wall of Omens, 1 Pia and Kiran, 1 Baloth, 1 Reveilark, 1 Pontiff.. There is few cards that I would trim or side out, but I dont have anything better to side in.
However, I think those cards that I bring in are not bad at all, but this MU is really hard for me.
Few options are comming to my mind but lets hear what do you have to tell me about this, guys!
But is it a good sideboard card? It needs game against multiple decks.
Yep. I got few of them, but I have never played that card. I guess it could be good against few decks that are listed above. Patrickgooley, it would not come only against death shadow jund. I would love to see this card against Affinity or Elves. Dont you think that this card would do nice work against those decks too?
However, if we speak strictly against Death Shadow's Jund deck, EE would be better, I guess.
I personaly run EE's, but Ill consider trying 1x Justice in side. Reason is because the rise of Affinity and Elves in my LGS. I see even Goblins, but I have never had problem with this deck. Also, I would not replace EE for Justice. We must run EE, its so flexible and good card!
I was going to try Aegis of the Gods for Chordable protection against Valakut. Anyone tried this? What would be the optimal timing for the Chord? Will a Chord for Aegis in response to a Scapeshift cast work? Or do I need to get Aegis on the battlefield before opponent Scapeshifts? I guess this is also a rules/stack question...
However, when player casts and resolves Scapeshift, he must declare each target with Valakut triggers, then you can chord for Aegis in response so, basicly, if he doesnt have removal for ur Aegis, each trigger of Valakut will fizzle.
Sheli only costs 3 mana, so that gives the deck an easier way to play 'more' kiki-jiki. Only she only comboes with some of the creatures, and can be very veak vs zoo and other aggresive matches. Voice of resurgency is a no go.
There is no way that manabase casts kiki if you draw her, even by hoogland standar that is streetching it.
Only 2 evolutions seems like a bad way to dig, Oath if Nissa does not find silver bullits, the streangh of the deck.
At best Felidar Guardian has the combi in play, but nest best just an oath in play. I do not think a 1/4 dig 3 down is good enough in it's own.
Playing at sorcery speed is bad.
What I do like is going voice or wall into rallier with Evo. The card draw off wall might be rerelvant with so much combo potensial. Voice into evo into pia and kiran is also good. With no chord of coco gadon teeg becomes a good card vs tron. Rallier ramps, and he also has a minor combo with oath of nissa (does wonders with felidar as well.)
If you want to continue down that line of deck play 4 evolutions. I also do not know why you need the 1 restoration angel. Take out 2 pridemage, 1 resto angel, put in 2 more evolutions for consistency and sidebioard silver bullits, and change in 1 Reclamation Sage. Sage is better with evolution the pridemage.
Yeah I'm not playing Kiki-Jiki anymore. I was testing it but it's just not worth it. It doesn't bring anything new to the deck and is just a liability.
I went up to 3 Evolutions mainboard since we have both a strong combo and beatdown plan. We don't need alot of silver bulleting pre-board since we have a very fast win in the matchups where it matters. Lots of filtering of the deck lets us find the bullets naturally also. But I think that a fourth one is a liability, in the main. Against lots of matchups, like BGx and Control.
Felidar is good enough to have at least 2 of in main. He almost always gets value when cast in the worst case. I'm trying 3 to have larger chance of drawing the combo preboard.
It is good to hear that Cheerio o's is unstable at least. Any deck that can winn on turn 2 is potensially very strong. (Paladin, O's, Chrome Mox and retract.) Even if they miss on the first try playing a second paladin would make it very unlikly that they whiff. The only card we have that interact with them is 3 or 4 paths, perhaps some lightning bolts depending on the build.
I am not to conserned about traditional storm. While it was inevitable that they would go off, the unstable hands ment it was not consistently turn 3 or 4. The banning of Probe makes it much harder as they can not just draw a bunch of free cards from the gravyeard.
One thing though, I do not think dork into evolution is less vunerable then bird shaman. If they remove the bird or the shaman you stand to loose less then if they remova the creature you evolutioned for.
Well, Im speaking from my expirience and games I played against this deck. I run 4 Paths and 4 Bolts so its verry likely to have answer for their creatures.
Banning probe did hurt storm in some ways, but becuase of Baral, dont know did you see, they just shifted into something else. They dont run anymore Assension so probe is not crucial here.They just shifted into some package with Gifts + some numbers of Remand. I like the way the deck looks, but it needs more push and cards to be better overal. I do agree that its slower, but still think we, and any other deck can hateout Puresteel combo more then this deck(however, Eidolon wrecks both decks).
And about which route is better, If you closely look Puresteel Combo, because we was talking about that, they actualy have only 0-2 cards in first game to interact with route, becuase they only run 0-2 Swan Song's. However, I wont tell anyone which route is better because everyone likes another way, and we are all here to discuss about that. Thats the best thing in magic, you can do same things on different ways.
That is actually quite a nice line Luda. Manadork into Evolution is just to vunerable.
Well, Ludafish's line is even more vunerable. His manadork have to survive 2 turns, and also Fauna Shaman. I bet, dork into T2 evolution is much less work and it requires far less cards then Ludafish's route does. Dont get me wrong, I also think that this route is possible and good for sure.
About Puresteel Paladin deck, I have been playing against it 4 or 5 times for now eather in real life or online and I lost only 1 game, and did not lost any match against this deck. I just think this deck is still too clunky to work and to be one of better decks. I mean, you have to pray to draw one of ur 8 cards, then you have to pray that your opponent doesnt have removal for your guy. + I dont want to speak about hate cards after SB or hate cards which our Kiki builds do have in main deck. My opinion is that this deck is busted now, but when dust setlles, we wont see much of this deck in the future. However, I also had chance to play against classic Storm includin both Goblin Electromanser and Baral. The deck is also nothing special, but I do think that this build of "Storm" have more potential then Puresteel Paladin version.
Guys, I really like Rallier and I think its a great modern looking card, but dont you think its somehow weird to each time u fire off CoCo, sac a creature and then pray to see Rallier in first 6 cards? I mean, if you hit Rallier, then you will get huge value, but if you dont, you just ruin yourself.. I personaly dont like the way how it looks this line of play.
Thanks for the reply. I am running a similar mana base to you (-1 bosk, + 1 thicket but am running 23 lands. So maybe your land is a heirach or a wall of roots?
Nah, Im simply run 22 lands with 4 Birds. You can see my full list page or two before this one. Dont have issues with manabase
However, Backtobasic01, my personal choise for running Baloth is because I can Evo him ASAP against burn and other aggressive decks. Found that I would rather accept 1 more life then Helix my opponent if I would replace Baloth with Siege Rhino. However, I also found that 1-off Baloth sometimes randomly wrecks Bant Eldrazi, Jund, Junk and 8-Reck, and I confront each of this decks at my LGS. Once I was really on backfoot vs. Bant eldrazi, and I managed to path Smasher, discard Baloth in play and trade with TKS and then draw a card. Later on, I took advantage of that increrible turn and at the end I won that game. There is many more situations when he Shines and for now, I really like seeing him in my deck!
what is the best land to replace township then? OR is it the 5th land dork (heirarch)? Agree absolutely with the ravine. its an all star
Well, it depends which Colors you want to play. Here is my mana base so you can see it and try figuring out which land you want to play instead of Township(if you plaf 4C):
While I was playing only Naya colors in my Evo list, I was running 1x Gavony Township. It felt great to have it as a backdoor solution. After I moved to Naya splash black version I removed Gavony from my deck. I would not recommand using Gavony even if all of us know that its so good land in any creature based deck. I was trying to fit it in my Naya Black Evo version but colours in the deck is so intensive and its often bad when u draw this land only because it doesnt give any color. As Patrickgooley said, I also had hands with 2 lands including Gavony and that hand is often mulligan and if that Gavony was any other coloured land, I would keep that hand.
However, I want to mention 1-off star of the deck: Raging Ravine. Guys, this land is nuts. I won many games using this land. In short time it makes so much preasure. Often opponents forgot about that land and doesnt think that this deck CAN be really aggressive. Just imagine EOT Flash in Resto, on ur turn reanimate land and swing for 7 points from no where. If you have any other creature to attack, that's even more damage. I am always happy to see Ravine in my hand or battlefield. I was even thinking to add more numbers in my deck but that could be clunky with Bosk, and sometimes Thicket since they do ETB tapped(Thicket not in first few turns but you got what Im trying to say). I just think 1-off Ravine is the right number! I have been trying also each other man-land in this slot but all of them falls in shadow of Raging Ravine!
Hey guys, nice to hear that my list inspired someone to try something similar too!
Last night I went to FNM and with 3-1 Score I sneaked into T4. I lost only to Jund 2-1 in rounds with really spicy games. All 3 games was close, but he manage to defeat me. This MU is favorable for us, but it was not my day(honestly, whole day was lucky for me, but my plays through whole day was really poor). In T4 I won against, lets say mirror, but he was not playing Eldritch version, he was playing traditional Kiki Chord version of the deck. Finals was again vs. Jund. The thing why Im writing this is to encourage people to try this version because Im competing with this deck for a while on verious touraments and Im really having succes with it. Howerver, from price boosters last night I opened my 5th masterpiece card, and it was 3rd masterpiece from price boosters! However, I opened Horzion Canopy, so Im really happy, and I think I'll replace it with normal version in my deck!
Atm. Im trying single Rallier instead of 1-off Courser and I kinda like it sometimes, but sometimes is clunky. I think 1 is the just the right number. Its really insane sometimes with fetches or resto angels. However, I'll have to work a bit on my sb now since Melira is not needed anymore because Infect is not on the radar right now. Enjoy the list!
This list looks pretty boss! Well done!!
Do you miss Chord or nah?
Thanks so much!
I have been playing Chord, but at this moment I dont miss it at all, honestly. I started with 4 Evo's and 3 Chords, after week I've cut 1 Chord, and then realized that I dont need it at all. If I ever consider running Chords, it would be if meta drasticly change in blue control way so Evolution doesnt stand a chance. Then Evoultuion would be replaced with Chord. It would be something similar what Jeff Hoogland is running. But as long as I play Evolution, I dont like Chord's in same deck.
I really hate when I topdeck mana dorks, which is not unfamiliar in Chord deck since u run 4 Birds, 2-3 Wall of Roots and even some number of Hierarchs. Here is not that often to topdeck mana dorks since I play only playset of Birds. Honestly, in this deck its not so much essensial to jump on mana like u want to in Coco or Chord deck. Dont understand me wrong, jumping on mana is good, I like to play CMC4 card in 3rd turn, but its not essensial in this deck, thats the reason of only 4 mana dorks. However, birds play HUGE role after sideboarding because you can fetch your silver bullets as soon as turn 2 if you need to. Got many free wins again various deck's like Affinity, Living End and even Infect..
Anafenza looks really decent. I guess I coud try it and see how it goes!
What do you think about SB options for Graveyard hate in Kiki Evo/Chord/Company list?
I have been strugling with living end for a few weeks now, so I decided to didcate more SB cards for graveyard hate since Im poorly weaponed for this fight.
In theory, I see my deck(if anyone remmeber, Im the Kiki Evo guy) not bad positioned vs. Liiving End, but in games its all different. In first game, my best cards are Voices, Evolutions(since sacing creature will bring it back when opponend goes on), Paths, 1-off Thragtusk and ofc 1-off Ooze. After SB, I bring in Sigarda(guess its gameover if I resolve, but I never resolved her sadly and I have been playing many games vs. Living End), Fulminator(good to slow them and it will come back eventionaly), Sin Collector(better than some MB cards), Slaughter Games(also like Sigarda, nerver draw it when needed), Eidolon of Rhetoric(Okay, this card made me 2 times very mad. 2 weeks in raw I played him T2, I evo bird into this guy, and my opponent both times T2 Shriekmaw it. I like Eidolon much more than Cannonist but this situations make me question about switching them), Ghostly Prison(I board this card sometimes in and sometimes I dont. Living End sometimes have really fast start through cycling Wraits and early cascade spells and this card ruin their plan aggresive plan), and last card that I bring in is Celestial Purge.
Things I board out is something like: 1-2 Bolts, 1 Wall of Omens, 1 Pia and Kiran, 1 Baloth, 1 Reveilark, 1 Pontiff.. There is few cards that I would trim or side out, but I dont have anything better to side in.
However, I think those cards that I bring in are not bad at all, but this MU is really hard for me.
Few options are comming to my mind but lets hear what do you have to tell me about this, guys!
Yep. I got few of them, but I have never played that card. I guess it could be good against few decks that are listed above. Patrickgooley, it would not come only against death shadow jund. I would love to see this card against Affinity or Elves. Dont you think that this card would do nice work against those decks too?
However, if we speak strictly against Death Shadow's Jund deck, EE would be better, I guess.
I personaly run EE's, but Ill consider trying 1x Justice in side. Reason is because the rise of Affinity and Elves in my LGS. I see even Goblins, but I have never had problem with this deck. Also, I would not replace EE for Justice. We must run EE, its so flexible and good card!
However, when player casts and resolves Scapeshift, he must declare each target with Valakut triggers, then you can chord for Aegis in response so, basicly, if he doesnt have removal for ur Aegis, each trigger of Valakut will fizzle.
I really, really like how this deck looks. There is some thing what I would change, but overall I like how and what this deck is doing!
Well, Im speaking from my expirience and games I played against this deck. I run 4 Paths and 4 Bolts so its verry likely to have answer for their creatures.
Banning probe did hurt storm in some ways, but becuase of Baral, dont know did you see, they just shifted into something else. They dont run anymore Assension so probe is not crucial here.They just shifted into some package with Gifts + some numbers of Remand. I like the way the deck looks, but it needs more push and cards to be better overal. I do agree that its slower, but still think we, and any other deck can hateout Puresteel combo more then this deck(however, Eidolon wrecks both decks).
And about which route is better, If you closely look Puresteel Combo, because we was talking about that, they actualy have only 0-2 cards in first game to interact with route, becuase they only run 0-2 Swan Song's. However, I wont tell anyone which route is better because everyone likes another way, and we are all here to discuss about that. Thats the best thing in magic, you can do same things on different ways.
Well, Ludafish's line is even more vunerable. His manadork have to survive 2 turns, and also Fauna Shaman. I bet, dork into T2 evolution is much less work and it requires far less cards then Ludafish's route does. Dont get me wrong, I also think that this route is possible and good for sure.
About Puresteel Paladin deck, I have been playing against it 4 or 5 times for now eather in real life or online and I lost only 1 game, and did not lost any match against this deck. I just think this deck is still too clunky to work and to be one of better decks. I mean, you have to pray to draw one of ur 8 cards, then you have to pray that your opponent doesnt have removal for your guy. + I dont want to speak about hate cards after SB or hate cards which our Kiki builds do have in main deck. My opinion is that this deck is busted now, but when dust setlles, we wont see much of this deck in the future. However, I also had chance to play against classic Storm includin both Goblin Electromanser and Baral. The deck is also nothing special, but I do think that this build of "Storm" have more potential then Puresteel Paladin version.
Nah, Im simply run 22 lands with 4 Birds. You can see my full list page or two before this one. Dont have issues with manabase
However, Backtobasic01, my personal choise for running Baloth is because I can Evo him ASAP against burn and other aggressive decks. Found that I would rather accept 1 more life then Helix my opponent if I would replace Baloth with Siege Rhino. However, I also found that 1-off Baloth sometimes randomly wrecks Bant Eldrazi, Jund, Junk and 8-Reck, and I confront each of this decks at my LGS. Once I was really on backfoot vs. Bant eldrazi, and I managed to path Smasher, discard Baloth in play and trade with TKS and then draw a card. Later on, I took advantage of that increrible turn and at the end I won that game. There is many more situations when he Shines and for now, I really like seeing him in my deck!
Well, it depends which Colors you want to play. Here is my mana base so you can see it and try figuring out which land you want to play instead of Township(if you plaf 4C):
1x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Raging Ravine
1x Fire-Lit Thicket
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
2x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
However, I want to mention 1-off star of the deck: Raging Ravine. Guys, this land is nuts. I won many games using this land. In short time it makes so much preasure. Often opponents forgot about that land and doesnt think that this deck CAN be really aggressive. Just imagine EOT Flash in Resto, on ur turn reanimate land and swing for 7 points from no where. If you have any other creature to attack, that's even more damage. I am always happy to see Ravine in my hand or battlefield. I was even thinking to add more numbers in my deck but that could be clunky with Bosk, and sometimes Thicket since they do ETB tapped(Thicket not in first few turns but you got what Im trying to say). I just think 1-off Ravine is the right number! I have been trying also each other man-land in this slot but all of them falls in shadow of Raging Ravine!
Last night I went to FNM and with 3-1 Score I sneaked into T4. I lost only to Jund 2-1 in rounds with really spicy games. All 3 games was close, but he manage to defeat me. This MU is favorable for us, but it was not my day(honestly, whole day was lucky for me, but my plays through whole day was really poor). In T4 I won against, lets say mirror, but he was not playing Eldritch version, he was playing traditional Kiki Chord version of the deck. Finals was again vs. Jund. The thing why Im writing this is to encourage people to try this version because Im competing with this deck for a while on verious touraments and Im really having succes with it. Howerver, from price boosters last night I opened my 5th masterpiece card, and it was 3rd masterpiece from price boosters! However, I opened Horzion Canopy, so Im really happy, and I think I'll replace it with normal version in my deck!
Thanks so much!
I have been playing Chord, but at this moment I dont miss it at all, honestly. I started with 4 Evo's and 3 Chords, after week I've cut 1 Chord, and then realized that I dont need it at all. If I ever consider running Chords, it would be if meta drasticly change in blue control way so Evolution doesnt stand a chance. Then Evoultuion would be replaced with Chord. It would be something similar what Jeff Hoogland is running. But as long as I play Evolution, I dont like Chord's in same deck.
I really hate when I topdeck mana dorks, which is not unfamiliar in Chord deck since u run 4 Birds, 2-3 Wall of Roots and even some number of Hierarchs. Here is not that often to topdeck mana dorks since I play only playset of Birds. Honestly, in this deck its not so much essensial to jump on mana like u want to in Coco or Chord deck. Dont understand me wrong, jumping on mana is good, I like to play CMC4 card in 3rd turn, but its not essensial in this deck, thats the reason of only 4 mana dorks. However, birds play HUGE role after sideboarding because you can fetch your silver bullets as soon as turn 2 if you need to. Got many free wins again various deck's like Affinity, Living End and even Infect..