That is a good plan. Helps see where the issue is at.
I was also going to say that with the deck becoming more popular people are learning how to play against it more effectively so lines of play are tighter and little luck goes a long way.
I was thinking grim flayer in the sb or bob. I don't know how necessary 2 lavamancers are with 4 transverse. One benefit of the grim flayer over goyf is that if you get it double strike you get to see 6 cards and you could potentially set up situations to hit for 2 to 4 damage the first time, look, see a pump spell, cycle or manamorphose to draw then pump flayer to hit for more damage. Very out there but possible lines of play.
I would caution cutting manamorphose down to 2. The reason the deck can run 15 lands is it runs more cantrips. Cutting ways to draw cards will make your mana problems start to pop up.
As far as cutting another Traverse? Not sure, I have been running 3 and it seems pretty good so far. There are some cool tricks with it. You can find a fetchland crack it and shock to pump death shadow. You can also find street wraith to draw a card essentially moving 3 cards out of your deck. You can find gore-clan or the elemental for certain situations or just another body. It's pretty versatile.
I also like the haster elemental for a few reasons. You can turn delirium on with him. You can trigger ferocious with him, and he also allows for hasty kills out of the blue. I look at it this way, he is at least better than top decking a steppe lynx and can potentially be cast and do 4 damage.
Few changes I made to sideboard so far is removed an ancient grudge for natural state, and debating on removing a flame slash for a dismember. This will allow for some instant speed removal and some life lose.
I agree with this. It seems that the deck is more consistent at times but can be a bit slower. It can still have explosive turns but they are less frequent but because of that it's more stable.
I think there is room for some 1 of's in the main at the cost of cutting a Transverse or Manamorphose. Some thoughts were Tarfire or Become Immense. If I was to play Become Immense I would probably cut a Transverse. That seems to be the card I have been cutting to make room for flex slots. The manamorphose cantrip is important. I would probably cut manamorphose if there was a more counter heavy environment, reason being is because I don't want to be time walked when I'm trying to be aggressive.
The deck tends to get delirium on turn 2 pretty often and overall seems to play pretty smooth. I need to test more against the decks bad matchups to see how that translates with this deck. I think some of the choices that deck makes helps edge the badmatchups.
Couple of interesting things I have found with the deck.
1) Transverse works well as a pump spell. You can fetch street wraith for the draw or a fetchland in order to lose 3 life ( if you have delirium). That is a pretty neat option and definitely not optimal but worth nothing.
2) In decks that play spellskite their targets are much slimmer due to BI being cut.
3) Playing Manamorphose can be tricky and opens up a new line of thought and skill. In the 4c version your skill came in sequencing lands in such a way that you could optimize your turns and spells played. In this deck being 3 colored reduces that decision tree a bit but with Manamorphose it opens it up. You have to think about when to play it, what colors to name, and what potential things you could draw since the mana will not carry over in phases.
Overall testing seems pretty good. Made a change to the sb by cutting Ancient Grudge for Natural State. Having the option for an enchantment to be destroyed is important. Might be room for abrupt decay to but we will see.
I tested the deck as well its about a turn slower. Less turn 3s but they are possible. The land count is ok. Sometimes you burn a transverse to hit your land drop.
Few things I noticed was it not losing life as well as the standard build but hitting delirium pretty consistent. Transverse offers a lot of play in terms of fetching a creature or a street wraith for a pump.
It is a bit less effected by spellskite. The spells it can redirect aren't as discouraging as BI. I think the deck can maybe cut a manamorphose for one BI. At times you really need it to close the game out.
I like the SB a lot. I'm going to continue to test it against affinity, and Jund to see which performs better. Groot definitely is an all star and whatever version I take to Indy will have him in it. The death touch helps a lot
I also like transverse the ulvenwald and the fact it searches for what you need. It's one of the options I been tossing around in place of the tarmogoyf sb slot.
When reading on RoE it mostly lead to bring it in for grindy match ups where the game may go longer and you can find the 4th land or bring it in for path match ups where you get path into that 4th land. Also while main we only have 17 land in the sb there is a forest which can bring us to 18 to make it slightly better.
Let me know how testing the last jund list goes. That one is pretty interesting.
I agree lynx is a bad top deck. I don't like the card which is why I went to a 2 lynx 1 goyf split. I can see times when transverse would be better the roe but roe gains card advantage where as transverse does not. You just trade 1 card for another where roe nets you 3. You get the ranger and 2 creatures.
Also the reason why people run roe (and this was something that took some searching and really thinking upon) is for heavy removal matchups/ path decks. You side in the forest which allows you to essentially ramp into roe. I guess you can do the same with Thrun and I do like the fact he is a 4/4 hexproof regen guy but I think the number of matchups you rather have the extra guys or cards may be more relevant.
Unlife is there to buy you time if you draw it. Sure no way to tutor for it but you do cantrip and thin fairly well. It has some cool benefits like against ad nauseum they can't one shot kill you with lightning storm, and burn, and other very aggressive decks. I think those 3 white cards ( 4 if you include lightning helix) make a much bigger difference then any green or red card you could fill into that slot. They are flexible in other matchups as well.
The only charm I see being played is Orzhov Charm which I been toying around with. It is good for removal and life loss. It has a reanimate built into it and also have path protection built in.
Also 16 lands can work. I use to run 16 lands when I ran 4 kird apes over 3 lynx and extra land. It is playable but I don't have the actual numbers of what is more consistent. I can tell you it feels like 17 lands is a bit more right when playing.
Question to the group
How do we feel about Affinity matchup ? I read articles and they say the matchup is poor but I did some solo testing last night and didn't seem that bad. The matches that seemed to be skewed were those with cranial plating but when you really think about it doesn't cranial plating just make all their match ups better? lol
Thoughts, ideas? I don't think it was that bad if you play tight and keep track of life and potential life swings that could occur.
Has one more question. I'm working on a list and been debating on Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, Gnarlwood Dryad as a 2 of. The 3rd is a Tarmogoyf which I'm quiet happy with.
Do we notice a lot of clashing with Dryad and Become Immense? How often does it being just a 1/1 cause an issue compared to the potential of Steppe Lynx getting larger?
Kird Ape is the safest bet of the 3 and Lynx is the most explosive but I feel Dryad is in between. Wish there was an easy way to crunch numbers of how successful they are in comparison to each other.
Also any feedback on sb
Ranger of Eos x 1
Lightning Helix x 1
Forest x 1
Dismember x 1
Stony Silence x 1
Natural State x 1
Ancient Grudge x 1
Phyrexian Unlife x 1
IOK x 2
Pyroclasm x 1
Grafdigger's Cage x 1
Hooting Mandrils x 2
Tarmogoyf x 1 ( This could potentially be Transverse if better )
Not a huge fan of those MTGO list. The first one had Thrun in it with 16 land which just seems not so good. It also seems that it's play suboptimal cards just to turn on a bigger Tarmogoyf.
The 2nd list seems interesting. I use to run vines of vastwood in the bolt spot and one in sb when twin was around. Vines is pretty cool. It can protect a creature of pump. One thing I see missing is Wild Nacatal. I'm not a fan of this. You miss out on some good sb cards without a small white splash.
Just recently joined the forum. Love this deck. It's one of my favorite to play. I played a while back when twin was around put it aside and recently picked it back up. After reading through quiet a bit of threads just wanted to add some input to the Lynx, no Lynx decision.
I personally do not run it. My reason is beyond my testing in suicide zoo though. I use to run the card in a rw landfall deck and even then there were times where it was just dead in the water in a deck built to utilize it. I recently build Sam Blacks list on Xmage to test it, because I believe in at least giving a card a chance if it has fetched results, and even then wasn't too impressed. I run Kird Ape in my paper build because it's normally always a 2/3, survives pryclasm and drown in sorrow and so on and can survive bolt with mg.
Personally I would not run Goblin Guide either mainly because you are trying to kill fast with this deck and while Goblin Guide has haste it also draws your opponent out of dead draws. Them drawing a land is not good because that is a land they would of drew on their turn and keeps them away from remove or answers to your deck. I much rather wait a turn with Kird Ape, have them draw a land, and attack next turn without them gaining any card advantage or removing a dead top deck.
Just my thoughts and look forward to following the thread more. I'll try to post my list later.
I was also going to say that with the deck becoming more popular people are learning how to play against it more effectively so lines of play are tighter and little luck goes a long way.
I would caution cutting manamorphose down to 2. The reason the deck can run 15 lands is it runs more cantrips. Cutting ways to draw cards will make your mana problems start to pop up.
As far as cutting another Traverse? Not sure, I have been running 3 and it seems pretty good so far. There are some cool tricks with it. You can find a fetchland crack it and shock to pump death shadow. You can also find street wraith to draw a card essentially moving 3 cards out of your deck. You can find gore-clan or the elemental for certain situations or just another body. It's pretty versatile.
I also like the haster elemental for a few reasons. You can turn delirium on with him. You can trigger ferocious with him, and he also allows for hasty kills out of the blue. I look at it this way, he is at least better than top decking a steppe lynx and can potentially be cast and do 4 damage.
Few changes I made to sideboard so far is removed an ancient grudge for natural state, and debating on removing a flame slash for a dismember. This will allow for some instant speed removal and some life lose.
I think there is room for some 1 of's in the main at the cost of cutting a Transverse or Manamorphose. Some thoughts were Tarfire or Become Immense. If I was to play Become Immense I would probably cut a Transverse. That seems to be the card I have been cutting to make room for flex slots. The manamorphose cantrip is important. I would probably cut manamorphose if there was a more counter heavy environment, reason being is because I don't want to be time walked when I'm trying to be aggressive.
The deck tends to get delirium on turn 2 pretty often and overall seems to play pretty smooth. I need to test more against the decks bad matchups to see how that translates with this deck. I think some of the choices that deck makes helps edge the badmatchups.
Couple of interesting things I have found with the deck.
1) Transverse works well as a pump spell. You can fetch street wraith for the draw or a fetchland in order to lose 3 life ( if you have delirium). That is a pretty neat option and definitely not optimal but worth nothing.
2) In decks that play spellskite their targets are much slimmer due to BI being cut.
3) Playing Manamorphose can be tricky and opens up a new line of thought and skill. In the 4c version your skill came in sequencing lands in such a way that you could optimize your turns and spells played. In this deck being 3 colored reduces that decision tree a bit but with Manamorphose it opens it up. You have to think about when to play it, what colors to name, and what potential things you could draw since the mana will not carry over in phases.
Overall testing seems pretty good. Made a change to the sb by cutting Ancient Grudge for Natural State. Having the option for an enchantment to be destroyed is important. Might be room for abrupt decay to but we will see.
Few things I noticed was it not losing life as well as the standard build but hitting delirium pretty consistent. Transverse offers a lot of play in terms of fetching a creature or a street wraith for a pump.
It is a bit less effected by spellskite. The spells it can redirect aren't as discouraging as BI. I think the deck can maybe cut a manamorphose for one BI. At times you really need it to close the game out.
I like the SB a lot. I'm going to continue to test it against affinity, and Jund to see which performs better. Groot definitely is an all star and whatever version I take to Indy will have him in it. The death touch helps a lot
I also like transverse the ulvenwald and the fact it searches for what you need. It's one of the options I been tossing around in place of the tarmogoyf sb slot.
When reading on RoE it mostly lead to bring it in for grindy match ups where the game may go longer and you can find the 4th land or bring it in for path match ups where you get path into that 4th land. Also while main we only have 17 land in the sb there is a forest which can bring us to 18 to make it slightly better.
Let me know how testing the last jund list goes. That one is pretty interesting.
Also the reason why people run roe (and this was something that took some searching and really thinking upon) is for heavy removal matchups/ path decks. You side in the forest which allows you to essentially ramp into roe. I guess you can do the same with Thrun and I do like the fact he is a 4/4 hexproof regen guy but I think the number of matchups you rather have the extra guys or cards may be more relevant.
Unlife is there to buy you time if you draw it. Sure no way to tutor for it but you do cantrip and thin fairly well. It has some cool benefits like against ad nauseum they can't one shot kill you with lightning storm, and burn, and other very aggressive decks. I think those 3 white cards ( 4 if you include lightning helix) make a much bigger difference then any green or red card you could fill into that slot. They are flexible in other matchups as well.
Also 16 lands can work. I use to run 16 lands when I ran 4 kird apes over 3 lynx and extra land. It is playable but I don't have the actual numbers of what is more consistent. I can tell you it feels like 17 lands is a bit more right when playing.
Question to the group
How do we feel about Affinity matchup ? I read articles and they say the matchup is poor but I did some solo testing last night and didn't seem that bad. The matches that seemed to be skewed were those with cranial plating but when you really think about it doesn't cranial plating just make all their match ups better? lol
Thoughts, ideas? I don't think it was that bad if you play tight and keep track of life and potential life swings that could occur.
Has one more question. I'm working on a list and been debating on Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, Gnarlwood Dryad as a 2 of. The 3rd is a Tarmogoyf which I'm quiet happy with.
Do we notice a lot of clashing with Dryad and Become Immense? How often does it being just a 1/1 cause an issue compared to the potential of Steppe Lynx getting larger?
Kird Ape is the safest bet of the 3 and Lynx is the most explosive but I feel Dryad is in between. Wish there was an easy way to crunch numbers of how successful they are in comparison to each other.
Also any feedback on sb
Ranger of Eos x 1
Lightning Helix x 1
Forest x 1
Dismember x 1
Stony Silence x 1
Natural State x 1
Ancient Grudge x 1
Phyrexian Unlife x 1
IOK x 2
Pyroclasm x 1
Grafdigger's Cage x 1
Hooting Mandrils x 2
Tarmogoyf x 1 ( This could potentially be Transverse if better )
The 2nd list seems interesting. I use to run vines of vastwood in the bolt spot and one in sb when twin was around. Vines is pretty cool. It can protect a creature of pump. One thing I see missing is Wild Nacatal. I'm not a fan of this. You miss out on some good sb cards without a small white splash.
Just recently joined the forum. Love this deck. It's one of my favorite to play. I played a while back when twin was around put it aside and recently picked it back up. After reading through quiet a bit of threads just wanted to add some input to the Lynx, no Lynx decision.
I personally do not run it. My reason is beyond my testing in suicide zoo though. I use to run the card in a rw landfall deck and even then there were times where it was just dead in the water in a deck built to utilize it. I recently build Sam Blacks list on Xmage to test it, because I believe in at least giving a card a chance if it has fetched results, and even then wasn't too impressed. I run Kird Ape in my paper build because it's normally always a 2/3, survives pryclasm and drown in sorrow and so on and can survive bolt with mg.
Personally I would not run Goblin Guide either mainly because you are trying to kill fast with this deck and while Goblin Guide has haste it also draws your opponent out of dead draws. Them drawing a land is not good because that is a land they would of drew on their turn and keeps them away from remove or answers to your deck. I much rather wait a turn with Kird Ape, have them draw a land, and attack next turn without them gaining any card advantage or removing a dead top deck.
Just my thoughts and look forward to following the thread more. I'll try to post my list later.