Figured I would join this thread. I have been playing living end since Extended was a thing. It's probably my favorite and most comfortable deck. Right now I'm testing a build with fulminators in the sb. Mainly because with a faster aggro format blowing up a land isn't that great. I replaced them with more cyclers in order to dig deeper and faster to get the combo. Now I still have them in my 75, there is actually 4 in the sideboard.
My thought is decks that know the list will play around the fact that fulminator could be coming and in game 1 the fear of it will be enough. Game two for those match ups like Tron and Eldrazi you bring them in and even the odds.
I still have simians main for those cases where you need a faster living end or to burn for an additional cycle before living end. Current list below, sb has 4 fulminator 4 chewer, the rest is up to meta.
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
2 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
4 Desert Cerodon
2 Greater Sandwurm
Spells:14
3 Living End
3 Beast Within
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
Lands:19
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
I'm having trouble against burn and bant eldrazi. I can get a game in each match against my playtesting partner but can't seem to crack a whole match yet. Both matchups seem really tough and i feel sort of "swept along" by whatever hands they draw rather than be able to set the aggression like I want. Won one match (against Eldrazi) out of a combined 12 or more matches. Abysmal record haha.
What's the secret here? I feel like I'm finally playing the deck properly and making optimal decisions, but the matchups remain steadfastly awful. Drowner is the worst thing ever.
I'm close to thinking burn is a actual bye, currently undefeated vs it and think its close to affinity in terms of how easy the matchup gets after board. whats your current list?
Bant eldrazi is another kettle of fish, its the main reason Im looking to cut fulminator as its only really goodish vs tron (you cant side it in vs bant)...having more cards like terminate and dismember help I'm also siding in the additional push now...I think ranger shines in this match up if you have white as you can fetch death shadow which is better than goyf due to potential rip, I think its a bad matchup however (it was my first loss the other day which ended my mtgo win streak of 24-0)
Also quick edit - Id be surprised if anyone ever plays a game of magic making all optimal decisions maybe recording and rewatching games should be something to move towards?
Not all optimal decisions, but when I test we go over plays analytically for whole matches and while initially I recognised I was making some weird play errors now I've ironed out my game to the point where even given multiple options all are defensible.
No idea how you managed to make burn such a good matchup honestly. Even siding out all my self-pain cards and bringing in stuff like lingering souls and collective brutality I just get burnt out. My threats don't come online fast enough & I always end up in this awkward situation where my opponent has maybe one threat left, I've got a goyf maybe, and I'm on 5 or 6 life. If i attack I'm dead to quite a few topdecks (Boris charm etc) and then it has ended up going in my opponent's favour each time. Doesn't fill me with confidence anyway haha
Woah, Never bring in Lingering Souls against Burn. This match is a race, one that we are very good at winning with bigger threats.
Bant Edlreazi is a tough matchup. You have to play extreme tight and optimal to get wins. It's in their favor just a bit. Against Bant Eldrazi you go up to four Fatal Push. Bring in Maelstrom Pulse if you run it and leave at least one copy of Collective Brutality in. The brutality is there to give you an out against Worship if you don't hit it with a discard. K Command isn't that great against them and neither is tarfire so you can sideboard out some number of those cards.
I played a bunch of games against GR Tron recently and got my ass kicked. Eight games main deck, 20+ post board. He probably got 60% of the games both pre and post board.
I know DSJ is supposed to be able to "go under" Tron, but I just couldn't. He was able to consistently cause me to gain 1-2 life per turn off of Grove which kept me off the Shadow plan. At some point inevitability just takes over the game, because shredding his hand didn't matter as he could top deck something that shut down my Goyf(s), which was my only threat left.
Postboard allowed me to get Fulminator hijinks online, but he sided into Relic which kept Goyf at bay and continued the lifegain shenanigans off of Grove.
Am I playing this match wrong? Has anyone else struggled like this? I think if it was the GB or GW variants I'd have been ok since IoK could have stripped removal and I could get at or below 10 life without interference.
FWIW I was trying the straight Jund plan with 2 Tombs instead of a Shrine. Other variance was 2 LotV MD and 2 Last Hope side, 3 Push, 1 MD Decay and 1 Brutality side.
This is interesting. Grove can for sure be a pain but the deck is able to lose more life in one turn than what Grove can gain. This match up can be unfavorable but with the right play you can edge it to even. I think based on what little info I have that you might just be approaching the match wrong from a play perspective or sideboard perspective.
So I was rereading GT article on shadow jund on scg (premium) and noticed that it seems Lily of the Last Hope may be a better choice tham LoTV.
Ill explain why. When looking at the article she was coming in a good majority of the matches listed and LoTV was going out. On top of that she was coming in during tougher matches like Bant Eldrazi and Abzan and also in the mirror which is bound to see play
To me running Last Hope main and LoTV in sb seems better since it will edge those closer matchups game 1. The article is below if folks want to take a look
Gerry posted an article on SCG on how to sideboard against Tron. His suggest sideboard tactic was
- Fatal Push x 3
- Liliana of the Veil x 2
- Abrupt Decay x 1
+ Fulminator x 3
+ Ancient Grudge x 2
+ Liliana of the Last Hope x 1
If you run surgical in your sb then add that in as well because hitting one of their tron lands will slow them way down.
As for lantern control that is a bad matchup in general. Card you bring in are Ancient Grudge, Pulse ( if you have it ) and removal Fatal Pushes. They are almost worthless beside the 2 cranes they may run.
One thing to note is I'm still up in the air about LOTV main vs Last Hope. I think which is main is based on the meta. If there is a lot of mana dorks, elves, martyr, company etc then Last Hope is amazing. If it's light on those decks then LOTV is the right choice.
Yeah I get the running 5 and in theory that is correct. The issue is that you will never be casting Traverse turn 1 to find Kataki for turn 2. It will more than likely be resolved by turn 3. I'm not sure that's where you want to be against Affinity. My SB I'm playing around with right now looks like this. I think missing Kataki wont' hurt. I added golgari charm in the slot because it gives you an out to an enchantment, clears small boards or chump blocks and can save a creature from removal. Very flexible.
Dromoka's Command is another possible slot. The issue is the mana is a bit funky with it. The benefit is good against burn, removal, and can hit enchantment light decks.
Fuminator Mage x 3
Ranger of Eos x 1
Grafdigger's Cage x 1
Surgical Extraction x 2
Ancient Grudge x 2
Big Game Hunter x 1
Golgari Charm x 1 ( or maybe Dromoka's Command )
Lingering Souls x 3
Collective Brutality x 1
The new list is pretty interesting. I think you still need the white splash. The Ranger and Souls tend to be too valuable. The kataki seems a bit too slow. If you draw it turn 2 great. If you have to traverse to get it not so great. Against the deck you want it again you need to be fast. I think your white splash is mainly for Ranger and Souls. Then leverage the other slots for Big Game Hunter, or some sort of enchantment removal.
The Jund version is still pretty good. When I was testing it a while back it was about a turn slower than the 4c. Now with probe gone it's probably about the same. Battle Rage in the Jund version doesn't act as much as a finished but a high damage burn spell. Seeing that with delirium you most likely aren't running many copies if any of BI, the likely hood of you combo-ing off isn't as high.
The reality of what we have to come up with is that the deck has been slowed a turn. Once we accept that we can find a replacement card. I think Manamorphose serves to be the best free cantrip we can use. It doesn't lose life and limits combat tricks ( due to mana being used during that phase) but it does dig us deeper into the deck and is essentially free.
I can see a deck doing a split and going 2 surgical and 2 manamorphose for the probe or some combination.
I still need to test it out some more to be sure what is more valuable, the card, the information or the life loss.
I was just about to ask about how much of a hit we take because of Probe. So this is the hit we take...
We lose information which helps to structure our plays
We lose a free Cantrip
We lose a free life loss spell
So what I found is that we won't have a spell that gives us all 3 of these things but can give us 1 of these things.
So for the free information? We have Thoughtseize to give us this in order to help but slows us a turn.
For the cantrip we can run Manamorphose to do the same but a turn slower and limits our options if we don't plan to spend the 2 mana right away.
For life loss we have Blessing, and Gut Shot, and other phyrexian mana spells.
So I think the ban did was intended and slowed the deck down but have to test to see if it just slowed it down or severely nerfed it.
Now let's talk new cards. Let's start with Fatal Push. This card hurts the deck and is something we have to figure out. Maybe the spell we replace the prob with is Blessing? Or maybe Postmortum Lunge?
I think we also gain a card Narnam Renegade. It's basically Kird Ape with death touch. I know a while back there are list floating around running the deathtouch dryad and a bit debate if that is better than lynx which I ended up going with no. This card though....might be better than lynx. Much easier to meet the revolt mechanic then to hit delirium constantly by a certain turn. I feel this card is right in the middle of the best of both. It doesn't have the high end as Lynx early but it has a better early game then Dryad. Late game Lynx sucks, this card is still good and dryad is better. So it might be the right card in the Lynx spot of the deck.
I like the dryad for sure but the lynx is better in terms of what the deck is looking to do. Lynx provides more damage quicker. Brad Nelson said something that made since to me in the deck tech and that was that people don't want to waste removal on the lynx, yet they have to at times. So essentially it offers enough of a potential threat that it has to be considered. It turns on ferocious by itself as well.
There are pros and cons to both. Steppe Lynx can create more mulligans with one land hands. Steppe Lynx is a dead draw more times than not. Dryad does less damage in the early game, and is a bombo with become immense. I always keep this thought in my head of what if I'm swinging with Dryad and X-Creature and need to become immense for lethal but I can't....because then it shrinks dyrad by 2 points.
This is why I roll the dice with lynx as opposed to dryad even though I like him more in terms of a creature. I like the potential of doing a lot of damage early to limit opponents options.
So I disagree with Sam Black assessment. I thought some of his sideboarding was questionable as well as hands he kept. When he said he added more instants to the because he was siding out manamorphose a lot I thought this was a mistake. You need to keep your cantrips as much as possible because the deck runs fewer lands and they help you see more cards. More cards means more chances for delirium earlier.
I think the Jund version can be a bit slower but it has some advantages. Spellskite is less effective, better Jund matchup, better Bant Eldrazi matchup. It loses some advantages in other areas but these match ups are tough and swinging them your way a bit helps. Below is the list I'm testing and I may cut a traverse for growth but not sure yet.
Groot is nuts and I rarely don't have delirium turn 2. He is nuts with trample, he eats up any opposing creature. I found with Nacalt the land skite or a wall and there we are. With groot just keep swinging toughness doesn't matter.
I like the reanimate but I don't like faithless looting. It's card disadvantage. You use 3 to get 2. Yes it chucks dead cards but what cards are dead outside of thoughtseize on an empty hand? Or occasional land?
I'm also playing this version as well at the Grand Prix. How is grim flayer working? I was thinking of sideboarding him as a one of and testing. I can see some crazy lines of play with him and double strike.
Two changes I'm playing around with is either an additional shockland in place of one of the 15, or maybe cutting a copy of grim lavamancer from the sb. Not sure for what yet but I don't know if two is necessary but I could be wrong.
Both versions are good. I had similar thoughts about slowing down and losing that advantage but you actually gain advantage against bad matching with this version.
The goal of 4c is to land death shadow as soon as possible. Your chances to win games increases dramatically. With JUL deck you can land it turn 2 pretty often. Mostly because you can tutor for it.
I think with some tweaking we can get the deck to be stable as well as fas5. I have alr3ady started playing with the numbers to get there. 1 BI is in the list now. Maybe cut the swamp got another shock or a fetch for a shock. Minor tweaks here and there. I cut a slash for dismember to help life lose and removal
I tested the tarfire and it wasn't impressive. Cutting a manamorphose for BI is pretty good. Already made the change and it's smooth. I have been able to pilot turn 3 kills but more often it's turn 4 and 5.
I also agree this deck feels much much better against bad match ups. Jund is better and so is bant eldrazi.
Figured I would join this thread. I have been playing living end since Extended was a thing. It's probably my favorite and most comfortable deck. Right now I'm testing a build with fulminators in the sb. Mainly because with a faster aggro format blowing up a land isn't that great. I replaced them with more cyclers in order to dig deeper and faster to get the combo. Now I still have them in my 75, there is actually 4 in the sideboard.
My thought is decks that know the list will play around the fact that fulminator could be coming and in game 1 the fear of it will be enough. Game two for those match ups like Tron and Eldrazi you bring them in and even the odds.
I still have simians main for those cases where you need a faster living end or to burn for an additional cycle before living end. Current list below, sb has 4 fulminator 4 chewer, the rest is up to meta.
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Archfiend of Ifnir
2 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
4 Desert Cerodon
2 Greater Sandwurm
Spells:14
3 Living End
3 Beast Within
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
Lands:19
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Bant Edlreazi is a tough matchup. You have to play extreme tight and optimal to get wins. It's in their favor just a bit. Against Bant Eldrazi you go up to four Fatal Push. Bring in Maelstrom Pulse if you run it and leave at least one copy of Collective Brutality in. The brutality is there to give you an out against Worship if you don't hit it with a discard. K Command isn't that great against them and neither is tarfire so you can sideboard out some number of those cards.
This is interesting. Grove can for sure be a pain but the deck is able to lose more life in one turn than what Grove can gain. This match up can be unfavorable but with the right play you can edge it to even. I think based on what little info I have that you might just be approaching the match wrong from a play perspective or sideboard perspective.
What do you board in and what do you take out?
Ill explain why. When looking at the article she was coming in a good majority of the matches listed and LoTV was going out. On top of that she was coming in during tougher matches like Bant Eldrazi and Abzan and also in the mirror which is bound to see play
To me running Last Hope main and LoTV in sb seems better since it will edge those closer matchups game 1. The article is below if folks want to take a look
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34659_Building-A-Better-Deaths-Shadow.html
- Fatal Push x 3
- Liliana of the Veil x 2
- Abrupt Decay x 1
+ Fulminator x 3
+ Ancient Grudge x 2
+ Liliana of the Last Hope x 1
If you run surgical in your sb then add that in as well because hitting one of their tron lands will slow them way down.
As for lantern control that is a bad matchup in general. Card you bring in are Ancient Grudge, Pulse ( if you have it ) and removal Fatal Pushes. They are almost worthless beside the 2 cranes they may run.
One thing to note is I'm still up in the air about LOTV main vs Last Hope. I think which is main is based on the meta. If there is a lot of mana dorks, elves, martyr, company etc then Last Hope is amazing. If it's light on those decks then LOTV is the right choice.
Dromoka's Command is another possible slot. The issue is the mana is a bit funky with it. The benefit is good against burn, removal, and can hit enchantment light decks.
Fuminator Mage x 3
Ranger of Eos x 1
Grafdigger's Cage x 1
Surgical Extraction x 2
Ancient Grudge x 2
Big Game Hunter x 1
Golgari Charm x 1 ( or maybe Dromoka's Command )
Lingering Souls x 3
Collective Brutality x 1
The reality of what we have to come up with is that the deck has been slowed a turn. Once we accept that we can find a replacement card. I think Manamorphose serves to be the best free cantrip we can use. It doesn't lose life and limits combat tricks ( due to mana being used during that phase) but it does dig us deeper into the deck and is essentially free.
I can see a deck doing a split and going 2 surgical and 2 manamorphose for the probe or some combination.
I still need to test it out some more to be sure what is more valuable, the card, the information or the life loss.
We lose information which helps to structure our plays
We lose a free Cantrip
We lose a free life loss spell
So what I found is that we won't have a spell that gives us all 3 of these things but can give us 1 of these things.
So for the free information? We have Thoughtseize to give us this in order to help but slows us a turn.
For the cantrip we can run Manamorphose to do the same but a turn slower and limits our options if we don't plan to spend the 2 mana right away.
For life loss we have Blessing, and Gut Shot, and other phyrexian mana spells.
So I think the ban did was intended and slowed the deck down but have to test to see if it just slowed it down or severely nerfed it.
Now let's talk new cards. Let's start with Fatal Push. This card hurts the deck and is something we have to figure out. Maybe the spell we replace the prob with is Blessing? Or maybe Postmortum Lunge?
I think we also gain a card Narnam Renegade. It's basically Kird Ape with death touch. I know a while back there are list floating around running the deathtouch dryad and a bit debate if that is better than lynx which I ended up going with no. This card though....might be better than lynx. Much easier to meet the revolt mechanic then to hit delirium constantly by a certain turn. I feel this card is right in the middle of the best of both. It doesn't have the high end as Lynx early but it has a better early game then Dryad. Late game Lynx sucks, this card is still good and dryad is better. So it might be the right card in the Lynx spot of the deck.
Thoughts?
There are pros and cons to both. Steppe Lynx can create more mulligans with one land hands. Steppe Lynx is a dead draw more times than not. Dryad does less damage in the early game, and is a bombo with become immense. I always keep this thought in my head of what if I'm swinging with Dryad and X-Creature and need to become immense for lethal but I can't....because then it shrinks dyrad by 2 points.
This is why I roll the dice with lynx as opposed to dryad even though I like him more in terms of a creature. I like the potential of doing a lot of damage early to limit opponents options.
So I disagree with Sam Black assessment. I thought some of his sideboarding was questionable as well as hands he kept. When he said he added more instants to the because he was siding out manamorphose a lot I thought this was a mistake. You need to keep your cantrips as much as possible because the deck runs fewer lands and they help you see more cards. More cards means more chances for delirium earlier.
I think the Jund version can be a bit slower but it has some advantages. Spellskite is less effective, better Jund matchup, better Bant Eldrazi matchup. It loses some advantages in other areas but these match ups are tough and swinging them your way a bit helps. Below is the list I'm testing and I may cut a traverse for growth but not sure yet.
Deck: Jund Suicide Zoo.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:18
4 Death's Shadow
4 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Inner-Flame Acolyte
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Street Wraith
Spells:27
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Manamorphose
4 Temur Battle Rage
1 Become Immense
Lands:15
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:14
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Spellskite
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Bedlam Reveler
2 Flame Slash
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Tarmogoyf
I like the reanimate but I don't like faithless looting. It's card disadvantage. You use 3 to get 2. Yes it chucks dead cards but what cards are dead outside of thoughtseize on an empty hand? Or occasional land?
Two changes I'm playing around with is either an additional shockland in place of one of the 15, or maybe cutting a copy of grim lavamancer from the sb. Not sure for what yet but I don't know if two is necessary but I could be wrong.
The goal of 4c is to land death shadow as soon as possible. Your chances to win games increases dramatically. With JUL deck you can land it turn 2 pretty often. Mostly because you can tutor for it.
I think with some tweaking we can get the deck to be stable as well as fas5. I have alr3ady started playing with the numbers to get there. 1 BI is in the list now. Maybe cut the swamp got another shock or a fetch for a shock. Minor tweaks here and there. I cut a slash for dismember to help life lose and removal
I also agree this deck feels much much better against bad match ups. Jund is better and so is bant eldrazi.