I don't think we have to stray too much from the maindeck plan with Borborygmos/Griselbrand/Worldspine Wurm. The thing that needs to be updated nowadays is the Sideboard, since the inclusion of Damping Sphere randomly screwing us over.
This is Truckis123's (Marcus Ewaldh) list. He streamed yesterday the whole challenge. I think he mentioned in the discord server that he would be running Terminus maindeck instead of Exhaustion to free up sideboard spaces.
What these spaces will be in the SB, we don't know it yet, but certainly a number of Monastery Mentor.
We were arguing that 4 AVs in a Dictate might be better than Howling Mines. I think, however, that you should run a number of Gigadrowses. They're one of the best cards that Dictate version can run.
Don't you think 4 Snapcaster Mage is a bit too much? We generally run 2, with 3 in As Foretold versions because they're the wincon.
Most of Brazil is GMT-3 (we're currently in daylight savings, but that ends this weekend), so GMT-2 right now, GMT-3 afterwards. My masters is in Vibration and Acoustics (major was Mechanical Engineering).
I'll send you a PM shortly.
TL;DW from the video: the lesson was that Exhaustion is great and I want four in the maindeck.
About the 5-0 league list:
Regardless of the "style", I'm a bit sad that it is a 4-of Jace list. I don't want Wizards to ban him
Guys, while PMing fluff I had the idea to setup a Discord server so we can discuss the deck and magic. I'm currently working on it, but the invite link is https://discord.gg/K6WnFzZ
I love Gigadrowse, and I was playing a 3/2 split Gigadrowse/Exhaustion before. To me, it's a meta call. Aggro decks? Exhastion. Grindy matchups? Gigadrowse.
EDIT: About the gameplay, would you guys rather have short videos on one matchup/another or a big, hour(s) long going through League/several matchups?
Sure, I agree that we can move this discussion elsewhere. I like leaving the strong sides of both decks registered in the thread tough (instead of arguing "this one is strictly better", which is what it sounded like to me, specially the 'friends don't let' part).
The point that I want to make is that they're both good Time Warp decks. However, their playstyle is different and that may confuse some people.
On the subject of a gauntlet, I'm pretty sure the biggest winner of the unbannings is Burn. They have good matchups against both JTMS and BBE. If the meta turns out filled with aggro deck, perhaps the U/G Turbolands is a better approach, but I'm sure it deserves another thread entirely for the archetype.
What is your timezone, btw? I'm at GMT-3 and I have a somewhat busy schedule (defending my Master's in two weeks), so I'd rather start by uploading some videos and putting it here so everyone can join the discussion, but if you want to discuss on an instant-message basis/test in real time, I'd be delighted (just not sure if I would be that much available).
How do you guys feel about Exhaustion being a 4-of? Since I was playing online when it was bugged I never really felt the need to constantly play the card. My current list uses only 2.
I believe your analysis is biased, or, to a lack of a proper word, shallow. The arguments you gave seem heavily influenced by the fact that you have a wrong understanding on how As Foretold version works, and I'll prove it along this post:
It's possible to draw one, not the other or just draw them in the wrong order. As we'd only be running 4 of our actual card draw spell it's feasible that some games you'd just never see it.
This statement is wrong in several aspects: a. You forgot the fact that Ancestral Vision can be suspended on turn 1 and you draw three on turn 4. It is way better than Serum Visions, even if you do have an As Foretold in hand. Almost nothing beats a turn 1 Ancestral Visions. You don't need both together to play both cards.
once a mine effect is on the field you get persistent card draw while digging through your deck and taking extra turns. Every turn taken draws you into more additional gas.
You generally don't stop taking turns with As Foretold once you start taking them. I would say that the upside is that your opponent doesn't get cards as well, but most lists run at least 1 Day's Undoing and some number of Wheel of Fate.
his means many situations will arise where you are taking turns blind, drawing only a single card at a time and hoping that the top card of your deck is an ancestral vision otherwise you lose. Frankly this is the worst aspect of running the As Foretold engine. You are completely reliant on topdecking an ancestral vision and have no other means of card velocity apart from a couple of cantrips.
Like I said before, you're not reliant on topdecking Ancestral Vision because you can play it turn one and you can tutor for it. @Truckis123 lists runs a total os 8 cantrips to add redundancy and it's the direction I'm leaning as well. The deck is very consistent just for you. Your opponent does not draw stuff along the ride.
"A couple of cantrips" statement is very misleading.
3) dictate can be flashed in, getting around various forms of interaction such as discard.
Like turn 1, 2 or 3 (on the draw) Inquisition of Kozilek?
My opponents don't get to turn 3/4 discard me and live.
Conversely, if your opponent casts an inquisition of kozilek and you're holding either a vision or a foretold (waiting for the other half and casting your interaction in the early turns) your draw engine is gonna get wrecked.
I believe I already proven that you don't need to wait to have both pieces out to play one of the cards, but I made the case only for Ancestral Vision. Now I will make the case for As Foretold. As Foretold is:
1. An incremental ramp spell.
This cannot be understated. Once As Foretold hits the ground, you're at the best ramping 2 mana per turn, and at least ramping 1.
This is because you can cast a spell with As Foretoldeach turn. It includes your opponents. This means I can flash a Snapcaster Mage on their turn when it is at 2, play Cryptic Command on 4, etc.
Having an As Foretold guarantees you win the resource war lategame. It gives you inevitability. I would argue that only Tron has a better lategame than that. This gets really broken once you start taking extra turns.
One of the issues with Dictate of Kruphix versions is that you take some time to go off. This is because you need to either luck out a Miracle'd Temporal Mastery so you can develop your resources to add more Mine effects, or you have to string 2-3 Time Warps AND land drops so you can play stuff beyond the Walks. Having one As Foretold in the field means you completely ignore the "must have Time Warp or Miracle to develop". You can play more than one spell per turn from the get-go.
So, in comparison, you need Dictate +2-3 Time Warps +lands from the top vs As Foretold +Time Warp and/or Ancestral Vision.
The other aspect of this is, well, I have felt that wins with As Foretold are that much faster. This is relevant if you are playing a big tournament like a GP.
2. An [Unrestricted Vintage Mode] enabler.
That's the part that most people cling to, as you did. This turns Ancestral Vision into sorcery speed free Ancestral Recall, Wheel of Fate into free Wheel of Fortune and Living End into free Living Death. That's some crazy upside and it lets you win matches out of nowhere. That's the crazy bonkers part, put the first one is relevant.
This cannot be understated. There's no game that keeps going once you resolve one or two Ancestral Recall. You could say that you add a secondary win-condition of burying the opponent in card advantage. Try to win a game versus a monoblue deck that draws 6 cards more than you over the course of four turns.
You don't have Time Warp to keep going? No problem. I still have all these goodies in hand.
4) you're incentivised to wait on casting as foretold because it does literally nothing by itself.
Wrong by the statements above.
To be honest, there's no good reason to drop dictate from the deck. Running as foretold *instead* is just bad deckbuilding.
Or... just a very biased opinion
I understand that you want to justify why you play Dictate of Kruphix build, but you shouldn't try to trash the other build if you don't understand how it plays out. The impression that you gave me is that you haven't played enough games with the As Foretold version, or maybe that you played it with the same mindset of Dictate build.
They're completely different beasts and, while winning mostly the same way, they play very different. I recommend you give it a try with or watch someone experienced with the deck play it.
Oh, that's actually a good idea. Once I set the sideboard I think I'll upload some videos with commentary on how to play the As Foretold version.
Basically, you can win if you're facing permanent-based answers to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, because you can just bounce them and proceed to go off. You will see most of the cards in your deck anyway. However, I'm very much afraid of Surgical Extraction. Maybe the answer to it is having extra wincons on the sideboard: Thing in the Ice and Laboratory Maniac come to mind. The only win-con is Jace. Well, maybe hitting with Snapcaster is possible, but I find it difficult.
I've received the suggestion of running Chalice of the Void for the Burn matchup. The good part about Chalice is that it hits Surgical Extraction, so maybe that's the direction I'm taking. Maybe I should include one Part the Waterveil, but so far so good.
About why running Day's Undoing and Wheel of Fate is because they have different applications. I use Wheel whenever I need to dig deep and find a Time Warp. I use it preemptively so I can continue comboing-off. Day's Undoing is actually the opposite: I only use it after I have already cast a Time Walk in the turn. Day's Undoing ensures that I can reuse any effect I already did in the deck and guarantees I can outgrind any resources my opponent presents. Milled both Jaces? Ok, now I have another library with 2 of them. I need to bounce something but already used my Cryptics? Day's Undoing is the answer.
Day's Undoing covers the Elixir of Immortality bit of the deck. The upside is that it draws 7 as well while it does it. I guess it's more important because I'm not running Mine effects.
VS Storm (and Burn), Chalice of the Void is king.
VS Grishoal and Ad Nauseam, I think running more permission is ok. They are not in a position to simply tapout versus us, so games take a little longer. Maybe they are favored against us, but I'm ok with that. They're not big % of the meta decks, imo.
Maybe my pet Gigadrowses have to go, but I like the 3/2 split with Exhaustion so far. Will post it after I learn a bit more about other matchups.
Some odd card choices justifications: a.Day's Undoing:
I was playing without this card before. Since I'm playing only 8 walks and 2 wincons, there were games that I would be running out of cards and turns. Between this and Elixir of Immortality, I rather pay 3 mana and draw 7, instead of gaining 5 life.
b. Miser's Living End:
Boy, if there's one card that makes me smile in this list is the one-of Living End. Great idea from someone here in the thread. It generally acts as a sweeper, but there's a hidden mode for this deck: if you have a Snapcaster Mage in the graveyard, this reads as: wrath your board, Time Warp from the graveyard for 0 mana. This was surprisingly relevant a lot of games.
Other As Foretold lists run a fourth Wheel of Fate
c. 4 Field of Ruin, no other nonbasics:
I'm starting to think that 4 FoR is a little bit too much, but boy do I love them. Maybe I'll go to 3 and add Oboro or Minamo. Maybe something that is not an Island to avoid getting Choke'd out.
d.2 Exhausts, 3 Gigadrowse:
Most As Foretold lists run 4 of both of those and no Snapcaster. I just balanced the numbers because I think running 2 Snappies is the perfect number for this deck. I might run 3 Exhaust/2 Gigadrowse, depending on the meta. Currently I'm expecting more control decks, so more drowses.
e.Notion Thief on the SB:
This cards actually read: 2UB, win the game versus tap-out for Jace, so it's pretty good in the meta. It also wrecks Ancestral Vision matchups and is simply great vs any kind of draw-go deck.
The rest of the sideboard is kind of all over the place.
Enhancements to be done:
1. Mana base should have at least one Watery Grave. This is because with the current manabase I can't Thoughtseize turn 1 from the sideboard.
2. Elixir of Immortality should be Collective Brutality.
3. There should be at least 2 Brutalities between sideboard and mainboard. Card's really good.
4. This can be splashed for white to run great hate cards like Stony Silence and Aven Mindcensor, but I want to play Notion Thief for a while.
What these spaces will be in the SB, we don't know it yet, but certainly a number of Monastery Mentor.
Don't you think 4 Snapcaster Mage is a bit too much? We generally run 2, with 3 in As Foretold versions because they're the wincon.
I'll send you a PM shortly.
TL;DW from the video: the lesson was that Exhaustion is great and I want four in the maindeck.
About the 5-0 league list:
Regardless of the "style", I'm a bit sad that it is a 4-of Jace list. I don't want Wizards to ban him
Guys, while PMing fluff I had the idea to setup a Discord server so we can discuss the deck and magic. I'm currently working on it, but the invite link is https://discord.gg/K6WnFzZ
As Foretold Turns Experience.
And yes, I have an annoying voice. But hey, it's there.
EDIT: About the gameplay, would you guys rather have short videos on one matchup/another or a big, hour(s) long going through League/several matchups?
The point that I want to make is that they're both good Time Warp decks. However, their playstyle is different and that may confuse some people.
On the subject of a gauntlet, I'm pretty sure the biggest winner of the unbannings is Burn. They have good matchups against both JTMS and BBE. If the meta turns out filled with aggro deck, perhaps the U/G Turbolands is a better approach, but I'm sure it deserves another thread entirely for the archetype.
What is your timezone, btw? I'm at GMT-3 and I have a somewhat busy schedule (defending my Master's in two weeks), so I'd rather start by uploading some videos and putting it here so everyone can join the discussion, but if you want to discuss on an instant-message basis/test in real time, I'd be delighted (just not sure if I would be that much available).
This statement is wrong in several aspects:
a. You forgot the fact that Ancestral Vision can be suspended on turn 1 and you draw three on turn 4. It is way better than Serum Visions, even if you do have an As Foretold in hand. Almost nothing beats a turn 1 Ancestral Visions. You don't need both together to play both cards.
b. As Foretold lists also run Wheel of Fate and Tolaria West. This is to compensate "just" 4 Ancestral Vision. It has more redundancy than Dictate Versions, that run at most 6 Mine effects.
You generally don't stop taking turns with As Foretold once you start taking them. I would say that the upside is that your opponent doesn't get cards as well, but most lists run at least 1 Day's Undoing and some number of Wheel of Fate.
Like I said before, you're not reliant on topdecking Ancestral Vision because you can play it turn one and you can tutor for it. @Truckis123 lists runs a total os 8 cantrips to add redundancy and it's the direction I'm leaning as well. The deck is very consistent just for you. Your opponent does not draw stuff along the ride.
"A couple of cantrips" statement is very misleading.
Like turn 1, 2 or 3 (on the draw) Inquisition of Kozilek?
My opponents don't get to turn 3/4 discard me and live.
I believe I already proven that you don't need to wait to have both pieces out to play one of the cards, but I made the case only for Ancestral Vision. Now I will make the case for As Foretold.
As Foretold is:
1. An incremental ramp spell.
This cannot be understated. Once As Foretold hits the ground, you're at the best ramping 2 mana per turn, and at least ramping 1.
This is because you can cast a spell with As Foretold each turn. It includes your opponents. This means I can flash a Snapcaster Mage on their turn when it is at 2, play Cryptic Command on 4, etc.
Having an As Foretold guarantees you win the resource war lategame. It gives you inevitability. I would argue that only Tron has a better lategame than that. This gets really broken once you start taking extra turns.
One of the issues with Dictate of Kruphix versions is that you take some time to go off. This is because you need to either luck out a Miracle'd Temporal Mastery so you can develop your resources to add more Mine effects, or you have to string 2-3 Time Warps AND land drops so you can play stuff beyond the Walks. Having one As Foretold in the field means you completely ignore the "must have Time Warp or Miracle to develop". You can play more than one spell per turn from the get-go.
So, in comparison, you need Dictate +2-3 Time Warps +lands from the top vs As Foretold +Time Warp and/or Ancestral Vision.
The other aspect of this is, well, I have felt that wins with As Foretold are that much faster. This is relevant if you are playing a big tournament like a GP.
2. An [Unrestricted Vintage Mode] enabler.
That's the part that most people cling to, as you did. This turns Ancestral Vision into sorcery speed free Ancestral Recall, Wheel of Fate into free Wheel of Fortune and Living End into free Living Death. That's some crazy upside and it lets you win matches out of nowhere. That's the crazy bonkers part, put the first one is relevant.
This cannot be understated. There's no game that keeps going once you resolve one or two Ancestral Recall. You could say that you add a secondary win-condition of burying the opponent in card advantage. Try to win a game versus a monoblue deck that draws 6 cards more than you over the course of four turns.
You don't have Time Warp to keep going? No problem. I still have all these goodies in hand.
Wrong by the statements above.
Or... just a very biased opinion
I understand that you want to justify why you play Dictate of Kruphix build, but you shouldn't try to trash the other build if you don't understand how it plays out. The impression that you gave me is that you haven't played enough games with the As Foretold version, or maybe that you played it with the same mindset of Dictate build.
They're completely different beasts and, while winning mostly the same way, they play very different. I recommend you give it a try with or watch someone experienced with the deck play it.
Oh, that's actually a good idea. Once I set the sideboard I think I'll upload some videos with commentary on how to play the As Foretold version.
Will try as a one of, just to see where this leads to
I've received the suggestion of running Chalice of the Void for the Burn matchup. The good part about Chalice is that it hits Surgical Extraction, so maybe that's the direction I'm taking. Maybe I should include one Part the Waterveil, but so far so good.
About why running Day's Undoing and Wheel of Fate is because they have different applications. I use Wheel whenever I need to dig deep and find a Time Warp. I use it preemptively so I can continue comboing-off. Day's Undoing is actually the opposite: I only use it after I have already cast a Time Walk in the turn. Day's Undoing ensures that I can reuse any effect I already did in the deck and guarantees I can outgrind any resources my opponent presents. Milled both Jaces? Ok, now I have another library with 2 of them. I need to bounce something but already used my Cryptics? Day's Undoing is the answer.
Day's Undoing covers the Elixir of Immortality bit of the deck. The upside is that it draws 7 as well while it does it. I guess it's more important because I'm not running Mine effects.
VS Storm (and Burn), Chalice of the Void is king.
VS Grishoal and Ad Nauseam, I think running more permission is ok. They are not in a position to simply tapout versus us, so games take a little longer. Maybe they are favored against us, but I'm ok with that. They're not big % of the meta decks, imo.
Maybe my pet Gigadrowses have to go, but I like the 3/2 split with Exhaustion so far. Will post it after I learn a bit more about other matchups.
EDIT: Chalice of the Void is so boss that maybe cutting every 1 mana spell in the deck and adding Chalice of the Void and Simian Spirit Guide in the maindeck is an option. (This one is for the crazy idea notebook)
4 Field of Ruin
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Sunken Hollow
2 Tolaria West
1 Snow-Covered Island
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Wheel of Fate
1 Living End
4 Serum Visions
3 Gigadrowse
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 As Foretold
2 Exhaustion
2 Day's Undoing
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Cryptic Command
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
2 Notion Thief
2 Thoughtseize
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Cryptic Command
1 Elixir of Immortality
Some odd card choices justifications:
a. Day's Undoing:
I was playing without this card before. Since I'm playing only 8 walks and 2 wincons, there were games that I would be running out of cards and turns. Between this and Elixir of Immortality, I rather pay 3 mana and draw 7, instead of gaining 5 life.
b. Miser's Living End:
Boy, if there's one card that makes me smile in this list is the one-of Living End. Great idea from someone here in the thread. It generally acts as a sweeper, but there's a hidden mode for this deck: if you have a Snapcaster Mage in the graveyard, this reads as: wrath your board, Time Warp from the graveyard for 0 mana. This was surprisingly relevant a lot of games.
Other As Foretold lists run a fourth Wheel of Fate
c. 4 Field of Ruin, no other nonbasics:
I'm starting to think that 4 FoR is a little bit too much, but boy do I love them. Maybe I'll go to 3 and add Oboro or Minamo. Maybe something that is not an Island to avoid getting Choke'd out.
d.2 Exhausts, 3 Gigadrowse:
Most As Foretold lists run 4 of both of those and no Snapcaster. I just balanced the numbers because I think running 2 Snappies is the perfect number for this deck. I might run 3 Exhaust/2 Gigadrowse, depending on the meta. Currently I'm expecting more control decks, so more drowses.
e. Notion Thief on the SB:
This cards actually read: 2UB, win the game versus tap-out for Jace, so it's pretty good in the meta. It also wrecks Ancestral Vision matchups and is simply great vs any kind of draw-go deck.
The rest of the sideboard is kind of all over the place.
f. As Foretold package instead of Dictate of Kruphix:
I was playing Living End before this and just fell in love with unrestricted Ancestral Recall. This deck brings a ton of other unrestricted Power, like Time Walk and Timetwister. I just don't like playing fair magic.
Enhancements to be done:
1. Mana base should have at least one Watery Grave. This is because with the current manabase I can't Thoughtseize turn 1 from the sideboard.
2. Elixir of Immortality should be Collective Brutality.
3. There should be at least 2 Brutalities between sideboard and mainboard. Card's really good.
4. This can be splashed for white to run great hate cards like Stony Silence and Aven Mindcensor, but I want to play Notion Thief for a while.