Quote from Gravedigger_Kalladdin »I've been messing around with an Esper version, here's the list I'm using right now:
Esper Narset ComboMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Planeswalkers-74x Narset, Parter of Veils3x Teferi, Time RavelerCreatures-74x Lore Broker3x Notion ThiefInstants-172x Commandeer4x Disrupting Shoal2x Remand2x Snapback3x Spell Pierce2x Spell Snare2x UnsubstantiateArtifacts-43x Fieldmist Borderpost1x Mistvein BorderpostSorceries-64x Day's Undoing1x Supreme Verdict1x Void SnareLands- 194x Flooded Strand1x Geier Reach Sanitarium2x Hallowed Fountain6x Island1x Plains4x Polluted Delta1x Watery GraveSideboard-152x Ashiok, Dream Render2x Blast Zone2x Commandeer2x Path to Exile2x Relic of Progenitus3x Supreme Verdict2x Unmoored Ego
So far Teferi, Time Raveler has felt good against both creature decks and combo/control decks. Ticking down to deal with permanents and get an extra draw is awesome, but my favorite part about him is getting to Wrath/Day's at instant speed. So far the mana hasn't been too much of a problem running 3 colors, I went up 1 more land to have room for a few more fetches while still keeping the basic count high. I also cut one Geier Reach for a plains which has been nice against field of ruin/path, though I do miss the extra combo piece. Verdict being blue, (and also being 4 cmc) has been great in place of damnation, and obviously it deals with creatures better than Engulf. Haven't tested Dovin's Veto yet, mostly because I'm not sure where I can fit it in.
Quote from Gravedigger_Kalladdin »Quote from elpokitolama »I am currently building two additionnal versions of the narset lock combo: esper Spirit of the Labyrinth prison/miracles, and bant (maybe splash black for thief) turbofog. I will report when both have reached a level worthy of publication. I also think locking the deck in mono blue just for the pitching isn't very rewarding, and Teferi's puzzle box seems to be actually quite insane with Narset/thief: even with an unrefined version of the deck, it kills the opponent very easily.
I'm also wondering about Engulf the shore's maindeckability.
I still think Teferi's puzzle box is bad, but I haven't tested it at all. Pros: it locks the opponent out completely with just 1 card in addition to Narset or Thief. Cons: it does basically nothing when you don't have Narset/Thief in play. Day's, Lore Broker and Geier Reach/Mikokoro all do at least a little something when you don't have a Narset/Thief, and they all help you draw into Thief where Puzzle box doesn't if you don't have much in hand, being 4 mana and sorcery speed also sucks.
That being said, if it is tested and is found to be a viable replacement to Day's/Thief it could save us some slots, (from 11 down to 4+ however many of the old combo pieces we may want to keep for consistency), and cutting cards out of the combo slots will help our interaction suite a ton; so even if it's a slightly worse card when we aren't comboing it, maybe that's ok because the rest of the deck is more efficient anyways with the saved slots.
On the topic of trying different colors: I am currently attempting to brew an esper list myself, (though not for playing Spirit of the Labyrinth). I'm interested in getting to play Supreme Verdict, Dovin's Veto, Path to Exile and my personal favorite, Teferi, Time Raveler. Other than path, they are all still blue cards so they don't interfere with our pitch plan, (a huge plus for Verdict over Damnation, where Engulf just doesn't feel like enough a lot of the time), and Teferi, Time Raveler is a) another answer to both creatures, which the deck struggles with, and b) can also hit resolved artifacts and enchantments which helps a ton because we don't have a lot that can interact with those if they hit the board, being able to hit Aethervial is great, and also making Void Snare instant speed is sweet. Being able to play Day's at instant speed is great too. Teferi's passive also hurts some opponent's naturally and also makes our lock with Thief instant-proof. The awkward part is the mana base. We need lots of blue sources and still have to splash black for Thief, so playing lots of basics is harder when we need 3 colors, (notably WW to cast verdict), but not playing as many basics hurts our borderposts a ton. So do we cut border posts or just play a few basics and then a ton of fetches to make sure we can always find a basic if we need to play a post. Let me know what you guys think here.
Quote from elpokitolama »I am currently building two additionnal versions of the narset lock combo: esper Spirit of the Labyrinth prison/miracles, and bant (maybe splash black for thief) turbofog. I will report when both have reached a level worthy of publication. I also think locking the deck in mono blue just for the pitching isn't very rewarding, and Teferi's puzzle box seems to be actually quite insane with Narset/thief: even with an unrefined version of the deck, it kills the opponent very easily.
I'm also wondering about Engulf the shore's maindeckability.
Quote from Onering »1RU for a sol ring isn't great, but that's not what Dack is in that situation. He's 1RU for a solid ring that also gets rid of an opponents sol ring, and that's a big swing, and then he sticks around with a strong looting ability building up to steal the next one. He also serves a rattlesnake function where just being in the command zone threatens to steal people's rocks. His ult is fairly easy to hit once you have that Mana advantage to protect him, but I'm not sure it would be worth it to run cards to make it worthwhile, so it's usually worthless (though if you get it it can be game winning with a few buyback spells).
Quote from Buffsam89 »2-card combo like Ashiok, Dream Render and Maralen of the Mornsong? Lol. Again, for the same cost as big bad Teferi? Also in the best control colors?
True, wheels weren’t the only reason, considering it was all in one package. It wouldn’t have been banworthy at all without that line of text, though. So that isn’t a very valid point one way or the other.
How about Karn, the great creator and Mycosynth Lattice? So, you’re advocating we add more broken combos to the format?
For every “Well, it’s not as broken as this”, there will be a “you sure about that?” from me. Because, again, nobody is building with these because they aren’t legal.
Quote from Lithl »Quote from elpokitolama »I'm quite surprised that Ashiok is sparking such a debate. After all, search deniers have been here for ages already, some of which even allowed to be cast from the comand zone (even though, I have to admit, at a higher cost).What search-preventing card is a legendary creature?
Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor are the only ones I'm aware of that are even creautres at all.
Quote from elpokitolama »I'm quite surprised that Ashiok is sparking such a debate. After all, search deniers have been here for ages already, some of which even allowed to be cast from the comand zone (even though, I have to admit, at a higher cost).
Quote from Dunharrow »So, what are the reasons to make planeswalkers legal? Other than for flavour. Are there any walkers that people want to build around without just trying to force the ultimate?
Daretti, Scrap Savant was interesting because his first two abilities could be built around. I would argue that almost all planeswalkers than can be played as commanders have sub-par ultimates and are really focused on the first two abilities.
So how many other planeswalkers would be interesting to build around?
I like playing planeswalkers in the 99, and I would not be a fan of having to ban a bunch of cards to enable very few new decks. So, please tell me what cards would be interesting new decks.
Quote from Onering »Quote from Carthage »I assume all newly printed commanders will no longer be legal at release, and instead evaluated for how "worthwhile" they are and what they can bring to the format.
Hey Taleran, this right here is an example of a disingenuous argument, for future reference.
So, Carthage, I see you are attempting at reductio ad absurdum, but failing miserably at it. The key difference here is that the rules of the format already allow newly printed cards to be allowed as commanders, so they are legal by default. They are, however, evaluated and banned if needed, like Leovold. Planeswalkers as commanders is not currently allowed by the rules unless they have special text allowing them. This means that allowing it necessarily has a higher bar to clear, as it is a change from the status quo. New cards being printed does not count, as in a collectible card game the printing of new cards, and their legality in all formats, is a built in feature of the status quo. It is the established and expected way in which the format grows that is accounted for in the rules. Allowing a new class of cards as commanders, unbanning cards, banning cards, allowing unsets permanently, those are changes to the status quo, and thus must pass a higher threshold when being considered for adoption. The same would be true, by the way, if the RC were to consider disallowing all pws as commanders including the ones with the rules text allowing them to be used as such. PW commanders were something they werent really backing, but they would have had to make a special rule preventing it as the basic rules of the game allow the "can be your commander" rules text to be employed and overrule the rules of the format (similar to ravenous rats).
Quote from Carthage »I assume all newly printed commanders will no longer be legal at release, and instead evaluated for how "worthwhile" they are and what they can bring to the format.