Matchups
RG Valakut (2-1)
Eldrazi Tron (2-1)
BW Eldrazi and Taxes (2-0)
Eldrazi Tron (2-0)
UW Control (2-1)
That 5-0 is impressive. What would you say that are key cards vs eldrazi tron and UW control? I think everyone here would love a brief report of how those matches played out
Two questions for the thread. Why is manglehorn played so much in the sideboard lately? Also, what's the best replacement for hallowed fountain? I'm playing at a team constructed event and my teammate needs the fountain. I've thought about irrigated farmland, but maybe the UW fastland or the 10th fetchland is better.
In games (wins/losses) went 0-2, 2-1 vs death shadow jund, 2-1 vs grixis control, 1-2 vs eldrazi tron
Overall, the deck felt better than old abzan company. The beatdown plan of old abzan coco is slow and mediocre (compared with bant, GW and naya counterparts). With the old deck I usually had to board out combo pieces vs heavy removal decks and tried to play the midrange game from the start. Now I've tried leaving all combo pieces, maybe shaving 1 druid depending on how many SB cards I wanted to include. With such a density of combo pieces trying to execute the combo first is a good plan, thus going for the midrange route only if things go wrong (which I like much more than the old strategy).
The main use for the infinite mana is #value with duskwatch. Cast all finks, restock hand with 7 creatures and stack the top cards of the library in case that I need more good draws. Rhonas is a really good magic card and it's worth running it by itself, being a mana sink is just extra value. Cheap, clocks hard, impossible (or really expensive) to remove for some decks like grixis or jund, and has the side benefit of being a mana sink for the combo.
SB considerations: Walking ballista is a bullet vs ensnaring bridge, it's unnecessary in the maindeck. Thought about melira, but infect is nonexistent ATM. Stony is mediocre and I can understand arguments for cutting them for other stuff. Terastodon is tech that I'm testing vs tron and other big mana decks. Big stupid cards like craterhoof shouldn't be played maindeck just because we can generate infinite mana, but I think we could include really expensive bullets that straight up win the game. Fiend hunter was played as a maindeck out to scavenging ooze, now with a second combo that doesn't get disrupted by it we might cut it (as it has been said, card is bad vs any kind of removal).
As you see, I've tested three matchups that I felt were complicated for the old deck. Jund/grixis decks are winnable with the aforementioned strategy, eldrazi tron is miserable though (which is surprising since bant eldrazi is favorable). All is dust is a beating, to be honest. I can't see any reasonable strategy G1 vs them, post sideboard it gets slightly better with stony and maelstrom pulse, still bad. Gaddock teeg is bad in this deck, so maybe I should swap some cards for 3-4 fulminator
I've been having this idea where we go all in on the eldritch Evolution game plan in the sideboard with 4 in the side with a bunch of hate. Any thoughts?
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
Vizier might see play in this deck, but I'm not super confident about it. Don't think it helps in any matchup where we struggle, and being 4 cmc is horrible (not a coco hit, dies to push). I understand 5 drops being played if they are really good (like wisperwood elemental), but 4 drops are in such a bad spot in this deck...
Rhonas is interesting. Some time ago I tested thassa (the blue theros god) and while the ability was powerful, it wasn't worth the slot. Rhonas activated ability is similar to thassa, slightly less powerful here (decks running vizier/druid combo use it better) but rhonas being a creature is totally possible. It dies to path, like every creature in knightfall, but survives push, bolt, terminate... to name a few. And combat must feel miserable with it. I don't remember ever playing against an indestructible deathtouch creature...
One last comment about rhonas. This is not like theros gods, this ones are creatures, just can't attack nor block. This means that ulvenwald tracker and dromoka's command are insane with rhonas in the battlefield, even if he's not active. Sad thing is that rhonas, if played, will be a 1 of, so the synergies won't come up too often.
Anafenza seems less important than melira imo. Very few decks are running mb yard hate so idkwhy people are too worried with that when we have A ton of options sb to fix issues. To start testing I think you want at least 3 Druid to see if it's even good enough. I'm playing 1 wave too because it just wins. Another idea is 1 wall that allows us a draw after we stack our decks with recruiter.
Melira hoses our own infinite mana combo, that's why I relegated her to the sideboard. Vizier+finks+anafenza+viscera still grants infinite bolster triggers so that's why there is one anafenza maindeck. I tried building that deck with the smallest oportunity cost possible. That's the same rationale for not adding more druids.
I'm worried about GY hate because dredge is still one of the best decks in the format, thus RIP ooze relic and surgical are widely played.
How does genesis wave win in a way that duskwatch doesn't? They do the same: putting our creatures on the battlefield. And I don't think that the wall is worth it. For the card draw there's already tracker and canopy. Plus, what's the top card, noncreature card that you want to draw after the combo?
@Vormi, tracker is a beast, trust me. The number of shrugs that tracker has caused is amazing. Card is slow though, and two might be too much.
@Brawny15, why do you despise kataki and canonist? please explain! I'm really interested in your rationale.
Anyway, I have some questions regarding the regular abzan deck. What's our strategy vs removal heavy decks? Do we really try to force the combo through removal or we try to go the midrange route from the start of the game? I ask this in regards to the sideboard: I never know if it's worth it to take out combo pieces like meliras or viscera seers. Same question with tempo decks (grixis delver for example). Infinite life wins, but it's super difficult to keep all three pieces in the game. In addition to all the removal, they have super efficient counters for the tutors (dispel and negate). Is it worth it to take out some number of chord of callings?
I'm quite lost with this pairings, so if someone could help me with our strategy and sideboard it would be greatly appreciated
Do we really want to run so many devoted druids? They're pretty bad on their own. I think that this combo is a good way to add another axis to the deck, but putting 4 devoted druids leaves us super vulnerable to many things.
My main concern with this deck has been that it the secondary beatdown plan was super mediocre. Some hands do literally nothing against an opposing RIP, or targeted discard. Recent iterations (for example, what ari lax and his teammates play) were better midrange decks, with archangel of thune and tracker. Adding a ton of bad mana dorks feels as bad as the saffi eriksdotter + rallier combo (and saffi is better on its own than devoted druid)
This is how I think I'll start testing this deck. I agree that ballista could be a card in the deck, but only when we want to win through an ensnaring bridge. 1 anafenza maindeck is super important IMO, for the bolster combo and its ability to grind midrange decks. Melira is cut from the maindeck for the anti synergy with druid but it's good enough to be in the sideboard. Tracker and Duskwatch are the payoffs for the infinite mana combo. Maybe 2 tracker is too much, tracker is slower than recruiter, but outside of the combo tracker grinds harder.
Please comment if you agree/disagree with my decisions
I don't really think that we are favored vs restore balance, but we have ways to win some games. If you are able to disrupt the balance, everything will be fine. This means, countering it with queller/negate/unified will most of the time. If you run vendilion you can also try to disrupt them with it. Post board, stony silence is a blowout.
I will never understand Eli Kassis lists, seriously. Only 3 path? 2 courser main and 2 courser sideboard? gideon main? And he has no social media, so unless someone knows him personally he can't explain this choices.
About meddling mage, don't forget the synergy with queller! Bolt the queller, in response collected company finding meddling mage naming whatever was under the queller prevents them casting it.
If someone goes with the meddling mages, I would encourage playing some number of vendilion cliques (for obvious reasons).
And it's really surprising to see so many knightfalls at team events. This deck plays stomping ground, which cuts them from death shadow jund. I know that there are other flavors for that deck, but I thought jund was the better version.
Botanical sanctum is a card that makes no sense in this deck, many people tell me to change it for a fetchland, but it still overperforms most of the time. I don't know why it's good, but it is. Hopefully after more matches I can understand why it's so good, it's an interesting card choice for sure. I'm not sure if hinterland harbor is worth it, I think that T1 untapped is more important than T4+ untapped.
@dreadnaught33, I've played worship in my sideboard for a really long time and I agree with Kelvin. The card is narrower than it seems (4 mana do nothing enchantment is tough with the speed and power level of the format, it's bad against any kind of enchantment removal/sweepers) and when it's good, most decks have outs (eldrazi can deck you with tks, merfolk has vapor snag and echoing truth, dredge has brutality, elves has shaman of the pack). In the end, I wanted worship for those four matchups and there are better cards against them that fit our plan better (reflector mage/alliance vs eldrazi, teeg/staticaster/negate vs elves, clique/alliance vs merfolk, staticaster/ooze vs dredge)
Has anyone tested a version with a couple of tarmogoyfs?
I want to test 2 goyfs in place of voice. Voice hasn't been that good, and there's lots of delirium strategies that enable goyf for us. In addition to that, 1g is a better cost than gw (with so many colorless lands its not trivial to have GW turn two.
For tournament decks, check what nathan smith played at GP dallas.
I haven't tested enough to provide a numerical win% against tron, but I have won some games. I've had more success vs them when I was running a more aggresive version of this deck (like 4c company with nacatl/goyf, versions with geist, versions with eldritch evolution) but I think that the stock knightfall list can win too (and is better than all those other versions vs most other decks). The combo, counters, stony and gaddock teeg are all great.
And for eldrazi tron, I haven't played vs it yet, so no idea.
There's also gaddock teeg. It stops gifts, pif and empty the warrens.
Today I tested reflector mage and got to do one really sweet play that I want to share here, vs affinity.
Affinity player has no artifact lands and an ornithopter, I had izzet staticaster in the field. Arcbound ravager is cast. In my turn, I reflector mage the ornithopter, they sac it for ravager and in response I shoot it down with staticaster.
Overall, reflector mage worked really well, way better than I expected. I understimated a lot that card.
That 5-0 is impressive. What would you say that are key cards vs eldrazi tron and UW control? I think everyone here would love a brief report of how those matches played out
Two questions for the thread. Why is manglehorn played so much in the sideboard lately? Also, what's the best replacement for hallowed fountain? I'm playing at a team constructed event and my teammate needs the fountain. I've thought about irrigated farmland, but maybe the UW fastland or the 10th fetchland is better.
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
//Instants
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Devoted Druid
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Viscera Seer
3 Vizier of Remedies
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Walking Ballista
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Terastodon
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Tidehollow Sculler
In games (wins/losses) went 0-2, 2-1 vs death shadow jund, 2-1 vs grixis control, 1-2 vs eldrazi tron
Overall, the deck felt better than old abzan company. The beatdown plan of old abzan coco is slow and mediocre (compared with bant, GW and naya counterparts). With the old deck I usually had to board out combo pieces vs heavy removal decks and tried to play the midrange game from the start. Now I've tried leaving all combo pieces, maybe shaving 1 druid depending on how many SB cards I wanted to include. With such a density of combo pieces trying to execute the combo first is a good plan, thus going for the midrange route only if things go wrong (which I like much more than the old strategy).
The main use for the infinite mana is #value with duskwatch. Cast all finks, restock hand with 7 creatures and stack the top cards of the library in case that I need more good draws. Rhonas is a really good magic card and it's worth running it by itself, being a mana sink is just extra value. Cheap, clocks hard, impossible (or really expensive) to remove for some decks like grixis or jund, and has the side benefit of being a mana sink for the combo.
SB considerations: Walking ballista is a bullet vs ensnaring bridge, it's unnecessary in the maindeck. Thought about melira, but infect is nonexistent ATM. Stony is mediocre and I can understand arguments for cutting them for other stuff. Terastodon is tech that I'm testing vs tron and other big mana decks. Big stupid cards like craterhoof shouldn't be played maindeck just because we can generate infinite mana, but I think we could include really expensive bullets that straight up win the game. Fiend hunter was played as a maindeck out to scavenging ooze, now with a second combo that doesn't get disrupted by it we might cut it (as it has been said, card is bad vs any kind of removal).
As you see, I've tested three matchups that I felt were complicated for the old deck. Jund/grixis decks are winnable with the aforementioned strategy, eldrazi tron is miserable though (which is surprising since bant eldrazi is favorable). All is dust is a beating, to be honest. I can't see any reasonable strategy G1 vs them, post sideboard it gets slightly better with stony and maelstrom pulse, still bad. Gaddock teeg is bad in this deck, so maybe I should swap some cards for 3-4 fulminator
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
Rhonas is interesting. Some time ago I tested thassa (the blue theros god) and while the ability was powerful, it wasn't worth the slot. Rhonas activated ability is similar to thassa, slightly less powerful here (decks running vizier/druid combo use it better) but rhonas being a creature is totally possible. It dies to path, like every creature in knightfall, but survives push, bolt, terminate... to name a few. And combat must feel miserable with it. I don't remember ever playing against an indestructible deathtouch creature...
One last comment about rhonas. This is not like theros gods, this ones are creatures, just can't attack nor block. This means that ulvenwald tracker and dromoka's command are insane with rhonas in the battlefield, even if he's not active. Sad thing is that rhonas, if played, will be a 1 of, so the synergies won't come up too often.
Melira hoses our own infinite mana combo, that's why I relegated her to the sideboard. Vizier+finks+anafenza+viscera still grants infinite bolster triggers so that's why there is one anafenza maindeck. I tried building that deck with the smallest oportunity cost possible. That's the same rationale for not adding more druids.
I'm worried about GY hate because dredge is still one of the best decks in the format, thus RIP ooze relic and surgical are widely played.
How does genesis wave win in a way that duskwatch doesn't? They do the same: putting our creatures on the battlefield. And I don't think that the wall is worth it. For the card draw there's already tracker and canopy. Plus, what's the top card, noncreature card that you want to draw after the combo?
@Vormi, tracker is a beast, trust me. The number of shrugs that tracker has caused is amazing. Card is slow though, and two might be too much.
@Brawny15, why do you despise kataki and canonist? please explain! I'm really interested in your rationale.
Anyway, I have some questions regarding the regular abzan deck. What's our strategy vs removal heavy decks? Do we really try to force the combo through removal or we try to go the midrange route from the start of the game? I ask this in regards to the sideboard: I never know if it's worth it to take out combo pieces like meliras or viscera seers. Same question with tempo decks (grixis delver for example). Infinite life wins, but it's super difficult to keep all three pieces in the game. In addition to all the removal, they have super efficient counters for the tutors (dispel and negate). Is it worth it to take out some number of chord of callings?
I'm quite lost with this pairings, so if someone could help me with our strategy and sideboard it would be greatly appreciated
My main concern with this deck has been that it the secondary beatdown plan was super mediocre. Some hands do literally nothing against an opposing RIP, or targeted discard. Recent iterations (for example, what ari lax and his teammates play) were better midrange decks, with archangel of thune and tracker. Adding a ton of bad mana dorks feels as bad as the saffi eriksdotter + rallier combo (and saffi is better on its own than devoted druid)
This is how I think I'll start testing this deck. I agree that ballista could be a card in the deck, but only when we want to win through an ensnaring bridge. 1 anafenza maindeck is super important IMO, for the bolster combo and its ability to grind midrange decks. Melira is cut from the maindeck for the anti synergy with druid but it's good enough to be in the sideboard. Tracker and Duskwatch are the payoffs for the infinite mana combo. Maybe 2 tracker is too much, tracker is slower than recruiter, but outside of the combo tracker grinds harder.
Please comment if you agree/disagree with my decisions
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
2 Viscera Seer
2 devoted druid
3 vizier of remedies
2 duskwatch recruiter
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Collected Company
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Walking ballista
1 melira, sylvok outcast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Sin Collector
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Fulminator mage
About meddling mage, don't forget the synergy with queller! Bolt the queller, in response collected company finding meddling mage naming whatever was under the queller prevents them casting it.
If someone goes with the meddling mages, I would encourage playing some number of vendilion cliques (for obvious reasons).
And it's really surprising to see so many knightfalls at team events. This deck plays stomping ground, which cuts them from death shadow jund. I know that there are other flavors for that deck, but I thought jund was the better version.
@dreadnaught33, I've played worship in my sideboard for a really long time and I agree with Kelvin. The card is narrower than it seems (4 mana do nothing enchantment is tough with the speed and power level of the format, it's bad against any kind of enchantment removal/sweepers) and when it's good, most decks have outs (eldrazi can deck you with tks, merfolk has vapor snag and echoing truth, dredge has brutality, elves has shaman of the pack). In the end, I wanted worship for those four matchups and there are better cards against them that fit our plan better (reflector mage/alliance vs eldrazi, teeg/staticaster/negate vs elves, clique/alliance vs merfolk, staticaster/ooze vs dredge)
I want to test 2 goyfs in place of voice. Voice hasn't been that good, and there's lots of delirium strategies that enable goyf for us. In addition to that, 1g is a better cost than gw (with so many colorless lands its not trivial to have GW turn two.
For tournament decks, check what nathan smith played at GP dallas.
And for eldrazi tron, I haven't played vs it yet, so no idea.
Today I tested reflector mage and got to do one really sweet play that I want to share here, vs affinity.
Affinity player has no artifact lands and an ornithopter, I had izzet staticaster in the field. Arcbound ravager is cast. In my turn, I reflector mage the ornithopter, they sac it for ravager and in response I shoot it down with staticaster.
Overall, reflector mage worked really well, way better than I expected. I understimated a lot that card.