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  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    After playing more with abzan vizier I have to say that I greatly understimated that deck's ability to go on the combo plan vs decks with disruption. Some posts ago I said that our matchup is favorable vs that deck: while it was true for old (vizierless) company, this new version can force through removal much better. For example, I've assembled the combo way more times than I expected vs highly interactive decks like UW control or grixis shadow, which I never did before.

    About how I will modify my knightfall list to beat this deck: I'll play 3 maindeck ooze instead of the usual two (even with the vizier combo, this deck is still extremely reliant on the GY. The mana combo needs vizier+druid+payoff, and when I played that deck I often needed eternal witness to get back my payoff) and 2-3 SB izzet staticaster instead of the usual one (kills both vizier and viscera means that it breaks both combos and remains on the battlefield, which is extremely important too).

    Seems like Kelvin Chew will write an article about the bant vizier mixed deck. It will be an interesting resource for this discussion.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    I think that the issue most people have with two drops in this deck is that they are useful, but none of them are finishers. Selfless and qasali have some utility, voice and ooze are great for buying some turns, but none of them end the game like knight or tracker or vendilion.
    If we compare this deck to other midrange decks, for example BGx, our curve is much higher. If you read the articles that willy edel wrote about abzsn traverse, he explains that BGx usually has at most 8 cards with cmc 3+. Thats because they have a great finisher at the 2 cmc spot (goyf).

    I dont think that our current 2 drops are bad, they contribute to the midrange gameplan and we can support tons of three drops just fine. And I dont like changing those two drops for the vizier combo, which is a finisher but totally unrelated with everything this deck does.

    As before, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I see it. I have the druid combo in paper so I'll test and report soon Smile
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    About chew's brew...
    I feel like the thing that the new abzan vizier deck does well is overloading a creature deck with combo pieces. Previously, abzan coco had a secondary beatdown plan but it was really mediocre. Now it just has 4 more combo pieces. When AKH released I made some brews with vizier and I was still in the old mentality of having a secondary beatdown plan, so I didn't play the full set of druids and trimmed some copies of viscera seer. But the succesful lists are all in on the combo! Playsets of everything except viscera (just 3 copies). It's not that the mana combo is super good by itself, it's that it plays really well with the infinite life combo and kind of allows the deck forget the midrange plan.
    I think that the bant version falls in the same problem than my brew. It goes 50/50 in the midrange and combo plans, while retreat combo wants to be treated as a secondary plan (see: our deck) and vizier combo wants to be the main plan (see: abzan company). I might be wrong but on paper I don't really like how that deck is built.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Quote from MalkoMann »
    Quote from Neon989 »
    Hey guys, i see a rising in the counters company Deck, but didn't play this match yet. How do you beat it? What are good sb-options?

    I have always considered Abzan Company a pretty poor matchup, they are faster than we are and we only have 4x Path for interaction


    I dont get how you all say that Abzan coco is a bad matchup. You don't need to race them, we have enough disruption (maindeck, 4 path 4 queller/collected and some oozes. Post sideboard, staticaster, gaddock teeg, reflector mage, eldritch evolution, negate) and if they don't have the absolute nut draw (Turn 3 kill that caught you without a path) it's really difficult for them to win. Indeed, I recently won vs abzan company (2-1) and the games went like that. The new deck is a bit more difficult to interact with (ooze goes from being a lock piece to just a good card) but every other card that I mentioned continues being really good.

    Of course linvala is good, stops half of their deck leaving them little outs. But I think that it's too narrow. I think that teeg is better overall (last time teeg won me the game becuase my opponent was stuck with 3 chord of calling in his hand)
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Unified will is better than disdainful stroke almost every time, with the exception of the devoted druid matchup. And even there I don't think that disdainful is that great (it's like having negate vs abzan company and they go T1 viscera T2 melira T3 kitchen)

    I think that blessed alliance is a great card in the board, but now that the meta is slower (compared to the one pre probe ban) it's not as necessary. Anyway, in midrange decks, combat tricks are great and I value playable combat tricks really high. Cards like blessed alliance or dromoka's command have such a high ceiling in the right decks that I think it's worth running some.

    I think that we should be careful when cutting cards "because we have a good matchup". Sometimes those cards are the ones that give us that percentage points, and I think that not having blessed alliance vs bant eldrazi (for example) hurts a lot.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Quote from brunch13 »
    Hi guys, I'm new to the forum and to the wonderful Knightfall deck! I need some advice for sideboarding against some decks I'm having trouble with: Esper Control and U Tron.


    I don't know why but I've played a ton of matches vs control decks We could say that I have controlled the matchup? lol

    You need to know which are the good cards (ooze, knight, tracker, anything instant speed except path) and the bad cards (everything else). Games usually go like this: (vs most control decks)

    turns 1-4
    1 for 1 exchanges. Birds, pridemages, voices... You deploy your bad cards into some of their interaction. Remember, this is not the time to play good cards! That will come later once they ran out of removal or you have mana to protect them.
    Oh, and unless your opponent is really bad and plays into voice, it's not that good of a card. With this I mean, the best moment to play voice is turn 2, not turn 10. Let them waste removal on it! Voice is not your finisher, it's just a speed bump for them. I have yet to finish a game vs control with the voice token.

    turns 5-8
    Now their good cards start to come online. Sweepers, big card draw (revelation, vision) and planeswalkers. You should have some bad creatures in the battlefield at this point (it's a bad idea for the control player to kill 1 for 1 literally everything, they save some for the sweepers in order not to run out of cards). You have a tool for each of those things, and if your spells line up correctly with theirs, you will reach the late game in a pretty good position.
    • Against sweepers, don't overextend. Usually, having 1-2 beaters in the battlefield is enough to chip damage so there's no need to overextend into a wrath. In this matchups, cards are worth more than mana so don't worry about not playing everything you can.
    • Selfless spirit, in a similar fashion to voice, is just a speed bump. Don't overextend just because you have a selfless in the battlefield: they can EOT kill selfless and wipe the board on their turn.
    • Against big card draw, counters (negate and unified will). There's no need to fight over a think twice (for obvious reasons) but if you let that sphinx's revelation resolve for x=5, there are no ways for you to win the game. I usually save counters and quellers for this battles. As a side note: countering removal with queller is usually a bad idea, don't do it unless absolutely necessary.
    • Against planeswalkers, instant speed creatures. Walkers are sorcery speed and weak to creatures on the other side, they're at their best on an empty board. If they play gideon jura and you play EOT collected, you are in a really good position.
    turns 9+
    Late game has been reached, and if everything went to the plan they have a low life total, their hand has no more than 3 cards, no walkers on the table, you have some cards in hand and some creatures on the battlefield. Now you need to worry about chipping those last points of damage. You try to do that with the "good" creatures of the deck (knight, ooze, vendilion, a tracker from earlier turns...)
    All your plan revolves around getting to this point of the game, where you have a creature that dominates the battlefield and they have no answers for it.

    Sideboarding is pretty straightforward. Removal goes out, counters, card advantage and land destruction go in.
    Of course, there are little nuances that depend on the opposing control deck (don't fetch basics vs path decks, quarter is good vs U tron...), but this are the general lines of thought. Most of the time, control decks need to use all their mana to work properly (their spells are super expensive) so making them play awkwardly + denying their card draw + card draw of your own (tracker, canopy) is the best way to win.

    This was long, but hopefully useful Smile
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Do not bring counters vs bant eldrazi, they play 4 caverns.
    Reflector mage is good vs merfolk and death shadow. Good tempo card, which is crucial in those matchups.
    Blessed alliance is good vs merfolk too. Izzet staticaster is crucial vs dredge.
    Bojuka bog vs dredge and storm.

    I really liked linvala when I played with 4 eldritch evolution but its mediocre in a company deck. The new combo seems a little more difficult to interact with since ooze isnt useful anymore but you still have tons of cards for stopping them (path, staticaster, queller, negate and teeg for chord and company, reflector mage). They need to have a really fast start and you need to have a really bad hand to have no interaction (which has happened to me, thats how I lose most of the time vs abzan coco)
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Quote from JetpackBlues »
    the problem with teeg is they board in 4 bolts and some number of anger of the gods against us. And Teeg means we cant company to find a spirit or queller in response.


    If you have teeg then you're (probably) not dying that turn. If they kill teeg, then now you are able to company into queller for whatever key spell they cast now (probably gifts)

    Also, both bolts and anger and SB cards. I don't know how much is the storm deck able to dilute their deck for those cards. I would say that angers don't go in, and they only SB in bolts.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    I mentioned rhox war monk as good tech vs dredge and today a list was posted with 2 in the sideboard and 1 evolution! Don't know if it was because of my comment or anything but that's good timing
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/639765

    If I get an opportunity I will test the gifts storm matchup. I don't feel like its horrible, it should be more 50-50...
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Quote from Maximus_Bant »
    I always keep retreats against Elves and Merfolks because it transforms izzet staticaster into a machine gun! I also side-in 2 negates for elves to try to stop their chord or coco.


    I don't think that staticaster is worth it vs merfolk. It hits only a narrow set of cards, and none once they have a lord. Retreat isn't great vs merfolk either. in my experience that matchup is all about tempo, and our sideboarding vs them should be focused on that. Vs elves, if you stick a staticaster you probably won that game so no need for retreat.

    Quote from brosterman »

    I've been having trouble with storm and dredge, and was considering other options in the board. I run 2x scooze main, but that's about it. I was considering bjouka bog, loaming shaman, or another scooze but I haven't had time to test them. I also have been liking the 1x eldritch evolution in the board, so I am leaning toward trying that singleton loaming shaman. Unfortunately, it's kinda ***** against storm.


    Bojuka bog is a powerful card but I feel like it's too slow vs dredge (usually comes 1-2 turns after the damage is already done). It's good vs storm. Awkward if drawn, just like sejiri steppe.
    Loaming shaman is bad, I've tested it and didn't found it useful. Two cards that I believe are really good vs dredge are rhox war monk and burrenton forge tender. With the meta as it is right now I don't think it's worth playing either of those (maybe 1 war monk if you also play eldritch evolution, but that's it). If you want a 1-of vs storm I would recommend gaddock teeg. With storm and eldrazi tron on the top I think x1 gaddock teeg is a good idea.

    @brosterman, @jetpackblues, could you explain the rationale behind lotus cobra? I know that primitive knightfall lists (around the release of BFZ) had lotus cobra for the combo kill with kessig wolf run but it was eventually discarded. I've personally never run into any situation where I thought "well, if this qasali pridemage was a lotus cobra I would have more chances of winning this game" but if you have had results with it, I'm interested in how it performed and in which situations.

    PD, it's great to have so many of the MTGO 5-0 players in this thread!
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Quote from Dreadnaught33 »
    Has anyone in here streamed with their deck/have videos piloting it? I feel like most videos out there are ppl just streaming it to show the deck that are not that well versed in it. Would be helpful to see somebody from in here who really knows it piloting just to see what lines you take etc. I believe it helps all of us to learn from each other this way. I don't have MTGO unfortunately, but I feel like I'm still not good enough to stream anyways....

    I asked Kelvin Chew about streaming with knightfall and he told me that he had no plans for doing so. I agree that there are not that many good videos out there for learning this deck. And about MTGO, just use xmage. Its not as relevant as MTGO competitive leagues but it's not too bad either. And it's free!

    I've thought about making some videos but they would be in Spanish with English subtitles (my pronunciation is really bad). It might be a fun project for my summer. I love watching MTG videos so if anyone here in the thread wants to make some content, I'll watch it for sure Smile
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Whisperwood is good but in my recent games I've noticed a serious antisynergy with our deck. When you manifest cards like queller, reflector mage or eternal witness, the ETB trigger is missed. Even considering that, it has won me lots of games so I'm confused. I will continue testing it.

    I'm 6-0 in rated xmage matches (I don't have MTGO) vs Death Shadow jund (2-1) abzan midrange (2-0) merfolk (2-1) bant eldrazi (2-0) jeskai flash (2-1) 4c saheeli (2-1). It would be nice to have this kind of streaks in IRL magic :p
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    @CalebCalhoun Graphics 2 and 3 are okay, but I feel like graphic 1 is being quoted and misused everywhere. I think I should clarify this topic.
    If you check that graphic, you see no maximum, probability grows all the time. And that makes sense, if your deck is 4 coco and 56 hits your companies are going to be great! but that's not what we want: we are searching for the number of hits that yields the best result without going overkill - and that can't be told just by looking at that picture.
    Now look at this one. In blue it's the probability of exactly 2 hits, in orange the probability of 2 or more hits (which is what's represented in figure 1). Here we can see that 20 is the most optimal number of hits in a 60 card deck.
    This tells us that our deck should consist of, at least, 20 real hits. Birds and hierarchs, as everyone has already said, are not really what you want to see. Since we usually play x7 1cmc dorks, 27 is the optimal number of creatures for the deck.

    The basic idea of retreat is that it enables you to get "lucky." Essentially, knightfall is a tempo, midrange deck. So, when we draw "bad" cards (like scavenging ooze vs tron), we can lose tempo. The combo let's us win even when we have lost tempo. However, post-board it should be cut as the greatest loss of tempo is drawing retreat without knight. Post-board, we side out the "bad" cards for good ones. We should only have live draws. The thing is, decks like tron are hard to interact with even post-board. In those matchups, the combo stays in.


    This is really well explained and should be in the primer.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Knightfall/Bant Company
    Tier 1 hype! (even though the forum seems to have a bigger tier 1 category than what most people consider)

    Went 3-2 today at local win-a-goyf. Bad beats, manascrewed vs affinity and lost vs two abzan company nut draws, Won vs UW control, esper control, bant eldrazi. Whatever the deck feels great and I will probably play it more the following weeks.


    Mainboard is okay, I'm still unsure about eternal witness but seems worth it as a tutor target for the sideboard eldritch evolution. Otherwise, the mainboard is perfect. Courser of kruphix overperformed in several matchups, but wouldn't play more than two.
    From the sideboard, still unsure about having no stony silence. Whisperwood elemental is an amazing card and I'll continue testing it in this deck. Whisperwood is to selfless what archangel of thune is to melira - a bigger, better card that dominates grindy matchups. I kind of like it more than the SB walkers that people usually include. In addition to that, it's serious tech vs eldrazi tron, which is a matchups that scares me (sac it in response to all is dust, all your creatures turn into 2/2 colorless surprises)
    Posted in: Midrange
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